1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229

Last condo (from 1/20)

ohmygod_smile Champ, Champ, Champ ohmygod_smile He's in a vicious low/bounce mode and it's driving me nuts!!! I would love anyone's input on what to do at this point, but would love to hear from any of our resident "experienced people."

I have it in my head that Champ may have been on too much insulin because he's going low in one cycle (where I have to give him 18% to keep him above 50) and then bouncing very hard the next cycle. Yesterday morning was hard for me to take....he had an AMPS of 462!! His bounces are still extremely short...high preshot number followed by a decline over the rest of the cycle. I decreased his dose yesterday morning from 2.5u to 2.25u. Last night I was up until 1 a.m. (and I get up between 4-5 a.m. every morning) because, once again, he dropped like a stone. He had a PMPS of 243 so when I saw the 75 at +3 I knew I had to slow him down. I gave him a teaspoon of 18% on top of his regular homemade raw food, but he still dropped to 59 at +3.5. I gave him a tablespoon of 18% and he fell another couple points at +4. He got another tablespoon of 18% and started to rise by +4.5, finally getting to 99 at +6 and I felt I could go to bed. I don't like having to carb him to keep him in a safe range. His bouncing is already crazy ridiculous without adding that to the mix. As it is, I only carb him when he's in the 50's or below. 60's and up, I only give him his homemade raw or some Before Grain 1% if I have it on hand. At this point, I feel like a complete newbie and I've lost some confidence in myself about whether I'm making rational decisions where Champ is concerned.

I'd love input on whether the reduction was a good idea or not. I don't know if I would feel comfortable raising his dose when he's going low on this one. However, that being said, I'll do what I need to do to get this bouncing to stop.

I gave Champ his second Adequan injection yesterday morning. Boy, filling a syringe with 36 units just seems so wrong!! :shock: He didn't give me any trouble with the injection, though, so that's a relief!! Of course, when he has his head in a bowl of breakfast, nothing bothers him!!! :lol:

OT: My daughter had an extremely minor traffic "incident" yesterday. The person in front of her braked hard, she hit the brakes but ended up bumping him, and a car bumped her from behind. The car behind her left since there was no damage to anyone's vehicle, but the guy in front of her got out of his car so she had to get out of hers. There was no damage to his car, but his passenger got out and said his "back kind of hurt." He then looked at the rear of the vehicle he was in and said he couldn't believe there wasn't any damage. Then the driver, hearing this, said "yeah, my neck hurts a little too." My daughter, being inexperienced, didn't call the police so there was no police report and no documentation that there was no damage. Fortunately, she called me and I told her to take a picture of the car. They had already driven off, saying they were going to the emergency room, but they were right in front of her so she took a picture of the car from her window. I'm so sick of how litiginous our society has become. God forbid you should work for your money. Let's just fake an injury so we can collect insurance money. My daughter's car is in my name and I'm scared to death that this is going to turn into a nightmare. Las Vegas traffic is some of the worst in the country and our insurance rates are some of the highest in the nation. Unfortunately, my daughter has to travel from one end of town where we live all the way to the other side of town, in the middle of the strip, where UNLV is located. I think we may need to get her an apartment by the university so she doesn't have to drive so much, but, geez, the expense!!!

And now to get off gloomy subjects....

I hope everyone has a great hump day!!!!

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384 - ?? for SIENNE

Oh Patty, I have no advice about Champ, but you already know that. :roll:
I feel so bad for you, with all this with Champ, and worry about your DD's car trouble's now, I had to at least offer sympathy from afar.

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384 - ?? for SIENNE

Patty - BIG BIG HUG! I can SO identify with hating these bounces and trying to figure out how to stop them. I'm beginning to think KT's just gonna be a big ball for the rest of his life....boingy, boingy.....nice low cycle then 3-4 of horrible numbers. I sure hope you can get a handle on it for Champ - if you do, please help me find KT's handle.... :roll:

Another hug,

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384 - ?? for SIENNE

Thanks, Barb!!! I'll take everything I can get!! :lol:

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384 - ?? for SIENNE

Hi Patty, hope you get some eyes on Champ and see what's going on with him!
So sorry to hear what your daughter and you are dealing with now with the accident. If the hospital finds nothing wrong with their neck, back, then maybe that's the end of it, hopefully! Or did they sound like a couple of winners to your daughter! That does sound like a heck of a drive for her, but then rents are so high getting the right place in right area. Sending lots of vines and hugs.

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384 - ?? for SIENNE

Ugh on the pink Champ! Tarragon has been doing that as well. As we have been moving back down the dosing ladder, it has lessened. I have a suspicion that it was too much juice.

Poor Danielle! Brian hit a woman from behind at a stop light in Sept. His jeep wasn't hurt and it was minor damage to her car. She acted fine, etc. We got a letter the other day that insurance still has not settled with her because she is claiming medical and lost wages. Really???? There was hardly any damage. Then we wonder why insurance is so high! It really ticks me off.

Have a great day!

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384 - ?? for SIENNE

Patty:

Generally, with Lantus (providing you're following the TR protocol), you don't need to reduce the dose with bouncing. With other kinds of insulin where the dose isn't worked up systematically, it's far more likely that you'd be over what's a good dose. Champ certainly does bounce. If it were me, I'd probably have held the dose or even waited until a bounce cleared and increased. The good news is that you've been consistently seeing green on the fat 2.5u.

Hopefully, some others will chime in.

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252 - MORE ?? for SIENNE

Thanks for the reply, Sienne. I still have questions and concerns, though.

I don't understand the rationale for increasing. Since 12/1, Champ has seen green on all but 20 days.
Of those green days:
12/3 - low of 43 (dose 2.75 - 1st cycle of this increased dose from f2.5)
12/7 - low of 54 (dose f2.5)
12/10 - low of 45 (dose f2.5)
12/11 - low of 55 (dose 2.5)
12/15 - low of 38 (dose 2.5)
12/17 - low of 37 (dose sk2.5)
1/10 - low of 53 (dose sk2.5)
1/14 - low of 52 (dose sk2.5)
1/22 - low of 52 (dose 2.5)
1/24 - low of 47 (dose 2.25 - 2nd cycle of this decreased dose from 2.5)

There were numerous other days where he had lows in the 60's.

If I increase the dose, won't that make his numbers drop? In order to get the bouncing to stop, don't I need to stop making his liver panic? Won't giving him more insulin make his numbers drop even lower and thereby make his liver panic even further? I don't mind having flat yellow days. What I do mind is having to feed him high carb food to keep him safe one cycle just to have him bounce in the next cycle. I'm fortunate in that Champ probably has the shortest bounces in history, usually only lasting a half cycle. I would love to see flat yellow days, progressing to flat blue days, and ultimately getting to predominantly green days. I've always tried to follow the TR protocol to the letter. I've never been one to hold a dose beyond the requisite six cycles (the patience pants and I have a long love/hate relationship), but I've found myself these days holding the dose because of the fact he see's green so often. After hearing your explanation on the above, so I can wrap what's left of my mind around it, if you think I need to raise the dose, that's what I'm going to do. I'll want to keep in daily contact, though, to get your feedback as to when to further increase (or decrease as the case may be). Champ's FD was so much easier to manage before he got sick back in August (vet suspected it was a pancreatitis attack). Since then, he's just been all over the place and I feel like I'm having to relearn everything.

Thanks for all input!!!

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252 - MORE ?? for SIENNE

Here's what I'm thinking. I was in a similar quandary with Gabby. As you know, she's the diving diva. If I increased, she might really dive. If I held the dose, I was concerned about glucose toxicity. What's a girl to do. Or, better yet, as Marje once coined -- WWJD --"What would Jill do?" I asked Jill.

What she suggested was to be aggressive about dosing but be just as aggressive with food. In other words, manipulate the curve with food. I use food to prevent Gabby from earning a dose reduction. If you look at Gabby's SS, you'll see that I intervene fairly early with food -- much like you did last night -- to prevent Gabby from dropping into reduction earning numbers. Ideally, this will help to flatten out Champ's curve and help his liver get used to the lower numbers. Michelle has done this with Mannie and Marje with Gracie. (I don't use all of the different % carb food they do, though.) If you look at the end of April 2010 on Gabby's SS (it's on a separate tab), that's when I started being more strategic and manipulating the curve. It took until June/July for things to flatten out so this isn't an overnight process. Gabby will still bounce but it's not as extreme and she's probably averaging in the blue number range.

Just a caveat -- not so much for you but for others who may be reading. This approach isn't for the faint of heart or people who aren't around or won't test or panic when they see green. You're home to monitor and do so to insure Champ's safety. (You actually test more than I do which may make you queen of the testaholics!) There are times when you really, really need to know your cat and know the signs regarding when numbers may drop or that Champ is giving you the, "Feed me." look.

Hopefully, Jill will be able to stop by. I have more of my notes at home but don't have access to them while I'm at the office. So, let me know if you have questions.

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252 - MORE ?? for SIENNE

Oh Patty don't i know how you feel. It seems like after Leo's dental, belly wound and suspected pancreatitis (we too didn't get a definitive dx) Leo's numbers have been all over the place. We go up, we go down, he has good numbers for a few days and it starts all over again. The other day for the very first time i actually had trouble bringing Leo up when he hit 49, i fed him pretty much a whole can over 2 hours and still he was too low for my comfort, i actually had to start using karo for the first time. Why can't cats come with FD instruction manuals?!?!?! :evil: :lol: :lol: I hope you get some answers or Champ's numbers calm down for you.

Sorry to hear about your DD and the car accident, i hope nothing comes of it, so your insurance doesn't go thru the roof!!!

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252 - MORE ?? for SIENNE

Thank you so much, Sienne. I do understand what you're saying. I know I tend to overthink things sometimes. Such as, it seems contraindicative to increase the dose when that will mean having to carb the cat to keep him safe. I would think that reducing the dose would produce the same result, but on the opposite scale. Meaning...by increasing the dose, the high numbers will be lower, but the low numbers will also be lower meaning you need to manipulate with food to keep the BGs in a safe zone. With this method, you don't run the risk of increased health complications due to numbers consistently going too high, though you have to be very vigilent to watch for the low BGs. Conversely, if you reduce the dose, the low numbers will come up a bit, but the high numbers will most likely go into even higher numbers where you risk health complications. Since I don't panic with low numbers (knowing I can control anything with food and Karo) and I can test whenever necessary, I think I'll drink the koolaid and increase the dose. I'm going to miss sleeping, though. Boy, will I miss sleeping.

Of course, it may be I'm completely off base with my suppositions so correct me if I'm wrong!!! :lol:

And if Jill reads this, I'd love to have her opinion also!!!

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252 - ?? for SIENNE AND JILL TO

Hi Patty & Champ,

It seems that the main reason for raising the dose is--as always--to bring down the high numbers. If, indeed, the higher numbers are bounces and then Champ reacts to the bounces by going very low, is it conceivable that when the higher numbers are not so high, he might not react to them so extravagantly? (sorry for the convoluted sentence!) I guess you'll just have to increase the dose and see what happens.

Sorry about your DD's traffic incident and hope that all will be resolved without insurance problems. If something like this should happen in the future, she must insist that all the cars involved stick around until the police come and make an official report.

Good luck with it all. Sending positive thoughts on all counts!

Ella & Rusty

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252 - ?? for SIENNE AND JILL TO

hi patty! oh darn. now you have to post daily again! :lol:

i agree with sienne - there's 2 things i can think of - several people start giving their cats high or medium carb first thing after the shot. i think of bouncing like a pendulum swinging "you are getting sleeeepppppyyyy, very sleeeepppppyyyy" and it goes by the center and shoots over to the other extreme. you want to reduce the swinging so you can get that liver calmed down. keeping champ from going as low might then keep him from going so high.

i don't think it makes sense to decrease the dose as you did the other day. that sounds a whole lot like the advice i hear given on the main health board and i don't think that makes sense for someone following the Rand/Roomp protocol. while it might make sense for someone who doesn't know how to test, that's not you! ;-) :lol:

i'd return to the dose before you reduced (was it on the 23rd?) - i don't have your ss open at the moment although i looked at it earlier. but just back to that number.

the second thing is that marjorie has seen gracie bounce a lot less on levemir. nothing wrong with switching over and seeing if that helps champ.

bummer on the daughter's accident - that's really too bad. our 23 yr old son wrecked our beater van last september, but it was his fault. kids are so expensive! but wait, maybe i meant to say CATS are so expensive! cuz they are too!

re punkin's meter - yes, i'm annoyed. mostly i'm shocked and having a hard time grasping that he could possibly have been in terrible high numbers for a long time. it throws all the data before last weekend into doubt. i mean, we've been reducing on the dose, but were his numbers really going down? i don't know anything now. what can you do? you pick up the pieces and try to re-focus. so we're moving on. i just want to get his numbers down. i've read a ton on glucose toxicity lately and am afraid he won't ever go OTJ now - although even not having to shoot a big dose is probably worth it. anyway, we pick up the backpack and keep walking! i love my kitter!

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229 ?? SIENNE AND JILL T

:YMHUG: :YMHUG: A lot of us have been dealing w/ the extreme bouncies lately. Good luck on the increase, soon I will be thinking about another nudge for Tess too.

Poor Daniel! I agree w/ Ella, if there is any talk of injuries you need to get a police report. Hopefully, nothing will come of it. Do you know that they did really go to the ER? If nor w/ no police report and no immediate medical evaluation, I don't think they have much of a case. You might consider contacting you insurance to see if any claim has been filed.

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229 ?? SIENNE AND JILL T

PATTY:

here is a link to Nevada DMV requirements on filing an accident report in which the police were NOT called to the scene...
according to the DMV, you have 10 days to file the report, but the most important thing every website I searched mentions is
that your daughter SHOULD NOT, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, suggest that she was in ANY WAY at fault.

the police will not file the report for you...you must file it yourself with the DMV. There is a report form you can download included in the
link below.

Nevada law states that police must be called only if ONE PARTY to the accident incurs $750 in damages or injuries, but filing the report
with pic of her car will keep the other driver from filing false claims against you.

http://www.dmv.org/nv-nevada/accident-guide/

you can also go directly to the Nevada DMV website for further info
(DMV.ORG is not the official nevada website, but a national database.)

I agree with Ann that you should contact your insurance agent just in case...

Hi, Champ!

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229 ?? SIENNE AND JILL T

Wondering why I know where to find this info?
Christie could correct me if I'm wrong, but i had to get educated quickly on this type of thing
when an inebriated driver crashed into one of the Momster's rental houses,
left the scene, then tried to sue HER for damages after he sobered up :shock: :lol:

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229 ?? SIENNE AND JILL T

You Americans are so litigious, says she who's about to file suit against a rabbit specialist, well that's what she called herself anyway the Vet Board here did not agree! Amazing that Celi happens to know the details you need - this place is just amazing!!!

Patty I have been lurking around Champ too hope you are able to sort out his bounces with food, maybe it won't even have to be HC once you work out where the right places to feed him are and sleep is over rated anyway!

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229 ?? SIENNE AND JILL T

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229 ?? SIENNE AND JILL T

Celi and Ann, I told my DD that she should have called the police and not let them leave until they arrived. She's just so inexperienced, and could only think of her good fortune that she wasn't going to get a ticket, that she didn't even think of the ramifications of these people claiming injuries when there was no damage to either vehicle. She now knows better, let me tell you!! As soon as I got off the phone with her, I called my insurance company to warn them of what's coming. We emailed the picture of their car and pictures of her car to the insurance company so there's evidence that there's no damage. I think if she had told them she was calling the police, they would have changed their tune and just skedaddled. It seems so fishy, like this was all planned. I'm just sick about it all, but have finally gotten to a place where I can realize what will be, will be. It just really saddens me that there are people out there who will try to ruin you, just for money. My daughter definitely needs to pay more attention when she's driving, but the sad fact is she has to drive on the ugliest, busiest roads in Las Vegas. Every freeway, every roadway has construction and too much traffic. There's no such thing has having one car length between you and the car in front of you because someone WILL cut in. She has to travel 40 minutes to school every day on these roads. We're going to have to break down and get her an apartment close to school next year, but it's one of the worst neighborhoods so then I'll have to worry about that!! A definite catch-22.

Celi - good info about the DMV. Fortunately, because I've already reported this to my insurance, they take care of everything for me and they told me I'll get a letter from the DMV about everything I need to do.

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229 ?? SIENNE AND JILL T

Wow - between Champ, Weezer, and Punkin there is soooo much learnin' on Lantus TR these past few days! I hope you figure out the best path for Champ - and I hope that the adequan kicks in soon!

So sorry about Danielle's situation. People are ruthless anymore. Many years ago (more than I care to admit), when I was 25, I was in a very similar situation, but I called the cops. The guy I rear-ended said he was fine, but as soon as the cops got there he pointed out every little bit of "damage" I had done to his 20+ year old car. I guess my age and gender worked to my advantage. I thought for sure I would get a ticket - I was at fault and had to admit that. But, because I so readily admitted it, the cops told me to watch out for this guy - they could tell by his behavior that he was going to come after me. And, they did NOT give me a ticket. They were right, though. A few months later he attempted to sue my insurance company...they said "No way" to paying out, and fortunately he let it drop. Crazy, crazy world. I hope all works out well for Danielle.

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252, +7 229 ?? SIENNE AND JILL T

I hope your day got better. Wish I could give you a real hug but hope this helps. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG: People are ridiculous anymore. Poor Danielle too. Hugs to her as well!!

We have been doing the bounces. The only thing that has helped has been increasing. It's something I have really struggled with since Tarragon was in the hospital in Sept. give me a call anytime if you just want to vent.

Hey girl: ok...you asked for it, you got it :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sienne is right on the mark. I know you study Gracie's SS so check out early December....UCK!! Now part of it, I am sure, was the pen. But I took her up to her highest dose PER THE PROTOCOL just like you do with Champ. When I raise her, it takes her 9-10 cycles to settle into a dose. So look at 12/25....she's at her highest dose, beginning to get some really great numbers, slowing down on the bouncing. And as I brought her down the scale, she just about quit bouncing but I had to go all the way back up to her breakthrough dose before she did..... and look how we switched her carbs to 6-10%. When I got to the chubby (c) 1u, I thought she stalled out on me but I've had nothing but problems from that pack of pens and I started getting bouncy numbers again. I changed the pen and down she came but I've learned with her that if I have to take her up...I need to take her back up to her breakthrough dose and hope she quits bouncing as she comes down.

The other thing is catching those drops/dives. We didn't catch Gracie's today and she's quickly on her way back up. I told Mike that when she drops like she did from +3 to +6, we cannot assume that she did it steadily. She might have done it all between +4 and +6 or +5.5 and +6. So the better thing to do would have been to check her again at +6.5 to see if what he fed her slowed her down. It evidently didn't but then he could have fed her some 8 or 10% and avoided the rest of the drop.

Remember what we say....sometimes you gotta go up to come down. I would also love to see what Jill would say but I think you need to decide if you want to leave him where he is because he's getting some nice greens, and then see if over time he will just quit bouncing, or whether you want to walk the edge because you ARE there and you DO test alot when you need to.

I also have to add to anyone reading this: we are aggressive with Gracie because we know her,we know how she responds, we want to try and get her into normal numbers as much as possible to heal her pancreas, and we are pretty much here all the time...at least one of us is. Please do not do this if you are not an experienced caregiver who knows your cat well and knows how to handle low numbers and if you are not there to do alot of testing and food management.

And now WWJD????

Re: 1/25 Champ AMPS 384, +3 252 - MORE ?? for SIENNE

Patty & Champ said:

Thank you so much, Sienne. I do understand what you're saying. I know I tend to overthink things sometimes. Such as, it seems contraindicative to increase the dose when that will mean having to carb the cat to keep him safe. I would think that reducing the dose would produce the same result, but on the opposite scale. Meaning...by increasing the dose, the high numbers will be lower, but the low numbers will also be lower meaning you need to manipulate with food to keep the BGs in a safe zone. With this method, you don't run the risk of increased health complications due to numbers consistently going too high, though you have to be very vigilent to watch for the low BGs. Conversely, if you reduce the dose, the low numbers will come up a bit, but the high numbers will most likely go into even higher numbers where you risk health complications. Since I don't panic with low numbers (knowing I can control anything with food and Karo) and I can test whenever necessary, I think I'll drink the koolaid and increase the dose. I'm going to miss sleeping, though. Boy, will I miss sleeping.

Of course, it may be I'm completely off base with my suppositions so correct me if I'm wrong!!! :lol:

And if Jill reads this, I'd love to have her opinion also!!!

Click to expand...

hey patty! sienne made my job easy. looks to me like you have this all figured out. i agree with all that's been said. you test enough, you know how to control a curve, and you're not afraid of low numbers. prop those lows up with food so they don't become too low. increasing will help bring the entire range down. sometimes you have to just plow through to get what you want. and i get the sleep thing. i recently had to go up in order to come back down. haven't had a good night's sleep the past 3 nights and tonight may be a repeat performance. lololol!

newbies reading this:
this technique is not for everyone. patty has enough experience under her belt to handle increasing at this time. please don't try this on your own.



O/T - hope everything works out well with this accident thing. :YMHUG:


edited to add:

And now WWJD????

Click to expand...

i don't think i've ever suggested or asked someone to do anything i wouldn't do. :mrgreen:
look at my ss. alex is now on her way down after having had to take her up to do it!

you had it covered, Patty
didn't mean to post too much info

I got hit once when I was a teen...guy convinced me not to call the police, and split the scene...
I totally understand why she was relieved not to see the police....
i KNEW it wasn't my fault back then, but the turd who hit me had me scared spitless!


AND I STILL THINK "WWJD" NEEDS TO BE MADE PART OF THE LANTUS LINGO DICTIONARY!! :lol: :lol:

Hey Patty....I was looking at Champ's SS again and I just wonder if feeding the basically zero carb food could also have something to do with this? I remember oh so long ago when Jill was answering some questions about food mgmt on
our condo (gosh...a year ago), it prompted us to change Gracie's carbs from the 0-2% to higher. That worked!!! We started using a 4% food as her basic food then managed it with the higher 6-10% carb foods.

I wonder if you could let his HM food be his normal food but then have other %carb foods on hand to manage his curve (even if you leave the dose where it is to keep from testing so much). Maybe you could flatten it out a little bit that way.
And maybe you don't need 18% gravy to do it.....

Also, I'd try and get a +2 every cycle and see how fast he is droppping. Then see if you can make any correlation between his +2, his drops, and his bounces. From there, perhaps you could tell that if he drops 30/hour, you need to control it. Or maybe his number is higher or lower than that. For Gracie, if I can catch her at 50/hour...that's great. But Champ may be very different.

Trial and error. It's head banging nerve wracking but it really pays off in the long run.

sorry to be so late in visiting... I won't add much to the discussion, short of saying that by feeding the way Sienne has described did make a difference with Mannie's dives. They key for us is feeding at the curve- the onset of the insulin. Mannie receives eh bulk of his food during the first three/four hours of his cycle, and by doing so, his curve has flattened out, lessening the severity of the dives. He still will bounce, but things are, overall, mush flatter. Good luck.

and I hope all works out well for your DD. I wish her the best.

Thanks to everyone for their well wishes and input!!! Thanks especially to Sienne, Jill, Marje, and Julie for giving me some great advice!! Looks like I need to head to the store tomorrow to stock up on some different foods.

Well let's hope your daughter doesn't have to endure what i did last year!

Last January it had snowed a ton and i had to make a run out to Petsmart, a kid ran a stop sign and i smashed into his drivers side, the whole front drivers side bumper on my brand new sports car was all smashed in, I got out and was yelling some less than ladylike words at the kid, i really went off on him, he looked terrified and i actually kinda scared myself :lol: . He was about ready to take off when i told him i needed to take down his drivers license number and name. This kid looked to be 16, but when i looked at his date of birth it said he was 21. I filed the report to my insurance and of course the kid wouldn't answer the letters and phone calls or submit his report to insurance of what happened that day. Less than a month after all this happened i see on the nightly news that the kid i hit had just been charged with 1st degree murder, i recognized his name and saw the picture and recognized him!!! OMG i just about had heart failure. He's now in the pennitentiary serving 25 years :shock: :shock:

Hope Champers is doing well today!