2/24 Mikey AMPS120 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.45/42 +16.30/52

Status
Not open for further replies.

miso00

Member Since 2011
yesterdays' condo http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=64452

can someone explain to me how stress effects diabetes in cats? I think I have seen notations made for #'s going up when there is a vet visit. Is it because of the stress of going or missing a shot? I was just wondering if stress had anything to do with his #'s yesterday. I know they were not "high" but when I got that 60 at +4 I thought for sure he would go down not up after.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120

Hi guys .. nice start to the day mikey! I think the stress of the actual vet visit, or any place other then their "normal" place can cause stress to a cat .. actually, anything out of the ordinary can cause stress to a cat .. crying babies they aren't used to, noises they aren't used to .. someone I'm sure will be able to come by and explain it better then me :-D have a great weekend!
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

I fell asleep and just woke up to test him and was not prepared for his PMPS to be 45. SHould I stall or shoot 1.25u?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

i wouldn't shoot a 45, amy.

you can stall 30 minutes and see what he is then & if it's a number you're ok shooting. don't feed while you stall.

hmmm, actually we feed the 40's - so see what other advice you get too. maybe he should be fed. this is a dose decrease, too - down by .25u.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

sorry, thinking more - i think you should give him a couple of teaspoons of low carb to pull him up a bit while you wait and see what's up.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

ok. I was going to shoot at 11pm to get his time back to then since we got a little of schedule the other morning, so I have about 30 minutes that should be ok anyway. I will retest in 30 minutes and if he goes up I will shoot. I will post first.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

No, I definitely wouldn't shoot either. Stall & don't feed, like Julie said.

Also does a 45 warrant a dose crease when you do shoot? Or is it under 40? I don't remember, I'll go look it up.

EDITED TO ADD:

Reducing the dose:

If kitty drops below 40 (long term diabetic) or 50 (newly diagnosed diabetic) reduce the dose by 0.25 unit. If kitty has a history of not holding reductions well or if reductions are close together... sneak the dose down by shaving the dose rather than reducing by a full quarter unit.

from the TR protocol sticky.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

here's your guideline from the yellow sticky, amy:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.


Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

julie & punkin said:
sorry, thinking more - i think you should give him a couple of teaspoons of low carb to pull him up a bit while you wait and see what's up.

I dunno I'm not a dosing expert but if she feeds then she won't get a true number. I agree not to let him get too low tho.

Jenn, can you not feed and get a +15 minutes instead of waiting a full 30? That might help make the decision whether or not to LC a little bit.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

ok, so read the part i highlighted above and decide how you want to handle it. you can shoot the 50's as long as you'll be around to monitor. this is the path to OTJ following the TR protocol - so it's a good thing!

make sure you reduce the dose by .25 when you do shoot.

i think you can take the 911 off now - you doing ok?

edited to add - sorry i called you amy! i'm getting my mikey beans mixed up, jenn! :lol:
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

I guess I got confused thinking since it was a PRESHOT # it was looked at differently and might not warrant a reduction?

So I will shoot a reduced dose of 1u?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

I just wasn't sure to shoot or skip. the past few times we skipped the shot and then shot the reduced dose in the morning.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

the best possible results come from not skipping. libby's post above says to test every 15-20 minutes and the moment you see the rise starting and he's above 50 to ahead and shoot.

skipping is always an option, but in the grand scheme of things you will lose momentum in his progress and will still have to go through this process at some point. look at the ss for Tiki, Daphne, Atticus to see what happens as you shoot lower numbers on lantus. the curve will flatten out and become more like a line. dose reductions every time mikey goes under 50 will bring you to the great land of happiness that we're all looking for! :-D

did you feed him or not? if so, how much?

eta - and are you saying this is actually 1/2 hour early - so his +11.5?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

Jenn, was the 1st 45 @ +11.5 like Julie mentions? So does that make the 2nd 45 @ +12? if so you are not behind yet...

& did you feed?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

no I have not fed him anything. I did see your post julie when I looked back just now to give him some food but I had already tested again before I saw and didn't know if I should still feed him. I thought you don't want to shoot a rising number if it's due to a food spike?

I'm sorry I can't think of the time. I usually shoot at 11am/11pm but we stalled the other morning and I didn't shoot until 11:30am. I was trying to get him back to 11/11 so I shot this morning at 11:15. does that mean it's his 11.5?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

Hi Jennifer, do you know Sienne? Her comment to me the other night over this similar subject was, wait/test/20min., then shoot when you feel its safe, then AND THIS IS THE PART THAT is a good thing, and made me feel better, "you can feed HC after you shoot and then it won't ruin the whole night, and you still get the reduction, but Mikey will be safe for a while, but still test in +1..feed more HC/LC... Thats not word for word, but I think thats pretty much what she said, and it does work out very well.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

I think +12 would be at 11:15pm which it's 11:20 right now since I shot at 11:15 am this morning.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

so you're right at +12, sounds like.

so since you haven't fed, go ahead and continue to not feed. test him every 15 minutes and shoot when he's above 50.

you're doing great. this is a good thing! keep repeating that to yourself!
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

miso00 said:
I think +12 would be at 11:15pm which it's 11:20 right now since I shot at 11:15 am this morning.

OK good so now we know you have a 45 @ +12. Remember it's not a PMPS tho b/c you have not shot yet, so right now it's a PMBG (you might want to edit your subject line).

So you have a +11.5 of 45 and a +12 PMBG of 45.

You are correct what you said above about not shooting a rising # if it's rising due to a food spike. If it were my cat I would not feed yet, and I would retest again in 15 minutes, at 11:30 your time.

And yes the dose crease has been earned, did you see the quote from the TR protocol I posted above?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +3/86 +6/51 +7/55 PMPS 45

just tested at 11:30 he's at 38. going down.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +6/51 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.5/38

double ditto & should she be feeding HC or LC?

Jenn, don't feed too much, you don't want him to get too full in case he keeps dropping.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +6/51 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.5/38

I fed him 7% carb. Didn't want to do HC if I don't have to. I've been feeding him 4% carb so the 7% is a little more than he gets.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +6/51 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.5/38

miso00 said:
I fed him 7% carb. Didn't want to do HC if I don't have to. I've been feeding him 4% carb so the 7% is a little more than he gets.

That's what I would have done, too. Put off the HC as long as you can.

Can you retest in another 15 minutes, well 15 minutes after he's eaten anyway. And post. We're here with you. & you are doing GREAT!
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +6/51 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.5/38

Well, IF you can shoot tonight, Mikey got himself another dose reduction. Right now, these are unshootable numbers. How long can you stall?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +6/51 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.5/38

What do you mean how long can I stall? I shot at 11:15 am so I was hoping to shoot by 11:15pm. It's now 11:56 pm. I don't know what the protocol is. I can stay up and wait. I will be home all day tomorrow and if I need to change his shot time that's fine.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +6/51 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.5/38

That's what I was asking. I didn't know if you were locked into your usual shot time or if you had the flexibility to shoot 12 hours from whenever you might shoot tonight.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

I'm good all week. Nothing planned so I can shoot whenever tonight and however I can work back to a "normal" time I will.

I just tested him which I corrected the times. At 12am/+12.45 (12 hours 45 minutes, I think I calculated right) he was 42. That was 30 minutes after eating 1tbsp LC/7% wet food
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

I can shoot as soon as he goes pat 50 at anytime? Now I fed him that little bit at +12.15 does that matter? Do I have to wait an hour or 2 after that before shooting?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

mmmm - i'd like to see someone else's opinion on how long you have to wait after feeding.

did you read libby's post above that included the example of the hypothetical preshot of 43? a tablespoon isn't too much, but you want him to truly be on the rise before you shoot, not just food-influenced.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

I saw Libby's sticky. I keep a copy of it here. That's why I posted his # before feeding him. I made that mistake once before and why I only fed him tonight when he hit 38 and I fed him VERY little. And also that you don't want to shoot a food spike. That's why I was asking about how long to wait before shooting after I fed him that little amount, if that even matters since it was so little.

Also I think I have to get 2 consecutive high #'s without food before shooting?
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

miso00 said:
I can shoot as soon as he goes pat 50 at anytime? Now I fed him that little bit at +12.15 does that matter? Do I have to wait an hour or 2 after that before shooting?

I don't know either Jenn. Did you just feed him the one time?

Definitely get a test 15-30 minutes after the last one.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

his bg just now at +13.15 (13 hours 15 minutes past last shot) was 44. he's not going anywhere.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

Julie echoed my concern. Mikey's been surfing for the last hour even with giving him food. His numbers aren't budging. If/when you're able to shoot, you'll probably need to be awake and testing for quite some time. I think this is shaping up to be a skipped shot. I'd take advantage of getting a good night's sleep. I don't think Mikely is going to be letting you get much sleep given what his SS looks like.

FWIW, I rarely suggest skipping. Mikey has been surfing in numbers that are low and the other times you've skipped, he's gotten right back on track. He's decidedly on a mission.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

Ok. So I am skipping tonight. Will shoot at 11am tomorrow (back to normal time) and I will shoot 1u?

And I can feed him now? he is pretty hungry.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

feed the starving boy and tell him what a good job he's doing with his insulin! :lol:

and yes, that 38 means a dose reduction of .25u. shoot the 1.0 tomorrow morning whenever you want - as long as he's over 50!
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

:-D thanks to all of you for keeping an eye out tonight :-D
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

Jenn I totally agree w/Sienne on this and she is much more knowledgeable than me.

If it were Tinkerbell or Tawny would definitely skip this shot altogether and I would go ahead and feed since I was skipping. & I would get another test 30 minutes after the feed just to make sure kitty was still going up.

Can you leave food out for him overnight or do you have other kitties who will steal it?

Good Job Tonight!

As far as shooting in the morning, for me it would depend on where they were. If Tink or Tawny was super high at, say, +17 and it was 6 a.m., I might go ahead with the shot. But that would also depend on the rest of my schedule over the following few days, thinking about getting back onto a normal schedule. If not too high, I might wait another hr or two until I got closer to their regular schedule.
 
Re: 2/24 Mikey AMPS 120 +7/55 +11.5/45 +12/45 +12.15/38 12.4

skips happen - no worries - here are a few PMBGs during our wild ride. . .these were 4 consecutive nights (Fri-Mon). . .

like the others said - go ahead and feed him - he earned his reduction :mrgreen:
 

Attachments

  • skips.jpg
    skips.jpg
    21.6 KB · Views: 902
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top