10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +2 41 +3 51 +4.25 54 +5.5 74

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Lisa & Leo

Very Active Member
Yesterday's Reducie Condo

AMPS 110
+1 86
+2 66
+2.75 62
+3.5 49
+4 58
+4.5 71
+5 76
+6.5 76
+8 81
+11 126
PMPS 109
+3 129
+5.5 183

Leo earned a Reducie last yesterday afternoon, and to my utter surprise 1) didn't bounce after scraping the bottom of the green lagoon and 2) didn't go high after last night's reduction. Wonders never cease. He will go higher today though. He must, else he mock me.

Today's Condo is dedicated to the "Marje Read my Mind" post that Marje put up yesterday called 10/16 TODAY'S LESSON--REDUCTIONS and my reaction to it. I'd started steering Leo before her post, and he was recovering from a little bounce because I'd lowered his dose for safety so I could go to work and then raised it back that night. He hadn't earned that reduction in my mind at that point. So I thought, dammit, I'm not taking a reduction for a 49 when this is a bounce recovery. Then Marje's post went live ONE HOUR after Leo hit a 49 and I thought, is she sending this out to me? And I continued to steer Leo.

Now as it happens, yesterday, I was simply exhausted. I'm either sick right now, or my body has shut down and forced me to stay home and take afternoon naps. But I continued to steer Leo into a surf (and dammit I'm proud I did it without causing a spectacular bounce to pinks/reds at the end of the cycle - yay for mamabean!). And I started wondering about the folly of a night of greens with its concomitant alarms and continued exhaustion, despite the delight of wonderful surfs.

So considering the circumstances, I asked for reduction advice. Both Dyana and Libby recommended a reduction based on the fact that 1) he came darn close to earning one a few days prior on 10/14 and 2) I had to steer him early in yesterday's cycle with some 20% yesterday. I didn't want to play the "it was a 49 and with meter variance it doesn't count as a reduction" card. I played that card once on 10/2 and it was the right thing to do at the time. But I also took a reduction once on low 50's on 9/2 (rather than waiting to go below 50) because that day it was also the right thing to do, looking at the Big Picture. So the protocol is the protocol, but what I've been told before it that the protocol is a guideline. I'm learning that it should be taken as such 1) because ECID and 2) it should be viewed within the Big Picture of the last several cycles.

Thanks Marje, for a very timely post. I'm not the only one you poked (inadvertently or not) into thinking about (and taking) a deserved reduction.

Many thanks go out lost of you for your advice and support throughout the day. Dyana and Libby for dose recommendations. Mannie the Kitteh Barista for a special brew yesterday morning, and Maggie for coming over to keep Leo company last night. Also to Jane and Karre, Ann and Maggie, Michelle and Mannie, Teresa and Poopy, Rhiannon and Shadow, Ann and Muffin, Wendy and Neko, Melanie and Racci (Happy Birthday again!), Leslie and Jasper, Barb and Checkers, Carla and Furball, Ann and Zener, Karen and FurrBall, and Deborah and Shasta. Hope I didn't miss anyone.

Leo is Leo. Slept with me all night. I got up this morning, shot him, set up the feeder for his +1 and set the alarm for +2. Got up and the feeder didn't open all the way :shock: And he'd been surfing blues in the night and he shed is dumping. It was half cocked so either I didn't align it well when I put it in, or Farty Leo has started to realize he can force the wheel to move, and made it jump the tracks. Sigh. Hopefully just Bean Error.

I slept for a whole 6 hours in a row for the first time weeks - Yay! And got another nearly 2 hours after the shot - yay! But still ordering out from Mannie, but dear Coffee Kitteh!

Have a great day all!
Lisa & Leo
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 and Props to Marje

Hi Lisa, what a great condo today on Leo and how you've steered his numbers. Congrats on the reducie.
Any time Leo wants company, Maggie is ready to come over and visit.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 and Props to Marje

Hi guys .. isn't it crazy how some posts just seem to be totally sent your way for one reason or another? Good luck with the reduction, I hope that leo holds it well for you .. and I hope that you get your much needed zzzzz's in .. sometimes we just have to listen to our bodies .. have a great day guys!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 and Props to Marje

Hi Lisa, Nice recap! Marje's timely post yields another great lesson from Lisa and Leo's Learning Lab: if you are working really hard to keep numbers up, time for a reducie. :-D Hope Leo surfs easy numbers all day so you can rest without worry. Glad you got some sleep and hope its post-presentation fatigue and you feel better soon. I saw your post about ability to transmit human flu able to our pets, good info to hope to never need. Have a restful day!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 and Props to Marje

Congrats on the reducie! Paws crossed for Leo to hold it! :-D :-D Marje is amazing, she just can't stop!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 and Props to Marje

Lisa, you've done such a wonderful job with Leo, so props to you too! And to Marje as well, always. I'm glad you finally got some sleep. Congrats on the reducie - I hope Leo loves his new dose.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 and Props to Marje

+5.5 69

Leo's dumping shed, and his late breakfast ingestion due to stoned bean may have contributed. ohmygod_smile

@Anne & Muffin - thanks - I love my boy. I hope he likes the dose too. I wish he could keep surfing the way he has the last 2 cycles! But alas, the shed will empty. :sad:

@Ann & Tess - Marje is great and I hope her advice comes with a great response!

@Leslie & Jasper - I do feel a bit better today. Yesterday I felt like I'd been hit by a truck. I might not even need a nap today! Yay! Glad you're enjoying Lisa & Leo's Learning Lab - if I write it down to help me work through our choices, it helps me. If anyone else finds my musings useful, that makes me feel great - thanks!

@Devon & Mocha - yeah, listen to the body. It's hard when other creatures need you, isn't it? Especially moms trying to make everything ok.

@Ann & Maggie - we're working that reducie for all it's worth! :-D Mags is welcome any time. Leo enjoyed the audience last night RIGHT AT BEDTIME when he decided to attack the appliques on the comforter and bounce the mattress. Little Stinker. And it didn't help that his sister Maggie was egging him on!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 & Props to Marje

+8 65

Leo demanded a +8 test. I wasn't planning on it but he presented himself and insisted quite emphatically that he needed to be tested. He got a nice chicken treat. Can you believe it? Exactly who has trained who?

Can you also believe the surf he's on? He's teasing me. I predicted this morning he'd go pinkie/red and he didn't. I don't understand this cat anymore. I know this is shed and sadly not reality. But this Phart will make me shoot low tonight? We'll, he's getting the dose, the whole dose, and nothing but the dose. I don't want a repeat of early September when he crashed down through 4 reductions in a week with all this shed-dump bouncing so he better not even THINK about dipping his toes below 50. PHART!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 & Props to Marje

Lisa,

You are doing a really tremendous job with little Leo. We are going through a similar experience of changing back and forth between similar doses. First up, then down, then up, then down. I feel like we're somehow making progress because the bounces are lasting less long, but it's becoming so hard to predict. Sound like you're a few steps ahead anticipating before things happen. That's great. Keep up the good work.

All the best to you guys and keep it up!
Jill
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 & Props to Marje

(((Lisa)))

I hope you are feeling much better and I'm sorry you've been under the weather. What a great surf today for Leo!!!

AND....the post was not directed to you or anyone in particular. It's one I've been meaning to do for a while and it was just on my mind when Gracie decided to venture down to 36 night before last. I'm so glad it was timely and helped you. And you are 150% correct that the protocol is a guideline. It is especially helpful for those starting out and gives them something to follow to give their kitty the best chance of remission. But it is not always a one size fits all and there are considerations for each specific kitty. It's great that you recognize that and can use it to best help Leo in his journey.

Sending you tons of healing vines and thank you for your great post. We all learn from each other and even members who have been around a while still have a great opportunity to learn from new members so thank YOU!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 & Props to Marje

Jill - oh my, you guys ARE flip-flopping doses! That must be really frustrating - I can see it in the numbers. Eeesh.

Well, Leo just threw a 93 at +11. @-) What the heck am I going to do now?!? I don't want another reduction but shooting a green will send him below 50. Sigh. The back-to-back reductions just aren't fair!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 Eeesh!

+11 93

Drat this Cat!
I said this morning,
He will go higher today though. He must, else he mock me.

And mocketh me he did! Fart Fart Fart!!!!!

I don't want back-to-back reductions. I don't want to skip a shot. I want to BCS because my BOS aren't BIG ENOUGH for this! Aaauughghghgh!
BillTheCat.gif
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 Eeesh!

breathe breathe breathe ......let me peek at his SS but you know I'm going to want you to shoot if you are feeling up to it, right? But I'll brb.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 Eeesh!

He is soooooooo mocking you. :-D Actually, when I read that line in your first post, I chuckled a bit, as we all know these little guys are constantly throwing us curve balls and mocking. I secretly hope they're chuckling a bit on the inside when this happens. Right now I'm thinking that Charlie does this on purpose at night so there will be someone staying up awake with her in the room so she can safely nap and know there's someone "on call" for her every need. :-D
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 Eeesh!

Okey dokey...first...he's coming up. That's good. Second....part of the protocol as a guideline comes to back to back reductions. We typically don't take them unless a cat is zoom zooming down the dosing scale and we are worried about an overfull depot.
Third, let's see how much he comes up in the next hour.

If he is surfing or gets a second dip and IF you have all the supplies, IF you feel up to it and are rested enough to deal with him tonight, then shoot low to stay low. Strap on those BOS and go for it. But do not hesitate to shoot a BCS if you are too tired or too sick. It isn't worth shooting low if you are too ill to do it. He will barely skip a beat on his progress, if at all, if you shoot a BCS. You will still need to get those tests because remember that he still has the depot to deal with and his cycle could still be active but if he heads up, then you can get some rest.

Your choice. We're with you!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 Eeesh!

Marje, you just KILL me! Of COURSE I knew what you were going to say :-D And oh, the irony, that I dedicated Leo's Condo to you today, eh? :lol: :lol: :lol:

I've recovered some. I don't think I'm sick - I think I was just exhausted and my body slammed me yesterday but I got some good sleep last night. I want to avoid 9/5 - 9/8 from happening again and we slam down the scale. It seems like we are more in control today - was last time the example you mentioned of overfull depot? Does Leo look overfull? (Of course, he's svelte and handsome, but you know what I mean!)

Wrinkle - tomorrow we drive home again. In the car at around +8 and arrive home around PMPS. Not sure that means anything. If he went low tomorrow morning, we'd be late enough in the cycle that it likely wouldn't be a problem.

I'm just asking all these questions because I'm trying to look ahead to what I would do now and also next time, based on what happens.

Thanks Marje - you're the best.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 Eeesh!

PMPS 85

Leo didn't really go up. He's surfing green. Marje?
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 Eeesh!

Yes the Irony! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I believe it is important for you to have a chat with Leo and let HIM know you do not want to reenact 9/5-9/8. When I look at those dates, yes, the depot could have been an issue but (1) your DPS shot blindly on 9/5 and I'm guessing it was a really low, dropping number that she shot and (2) Leo started clearing his bounce on 9/6 with a vengeance. I know someone else who likes to do that....I won't mention her name but she's little and brown and too adorable for words. ahem. They have to be so dramatic about it.

But the point of all that is you had a perfect storm going then that doesn't exist now...KWIM?

So...you just reduced last night and the depot can affect up to SIX subsequent cycles (altho for most cats it's probably 3-4 but ECID). Could you have a busy night tonight? It's very possible. But the advantage tonight is you do not shoot blindly, he is not dropping, and he is not clearing a mega bounce like he was in early Sept. In early Sept, he got into the 30s; he earned his reduction yesterday at 49 and he came right up. So, no, I don't think his depot is overfull but....unfortunately, my crystal ball is hazy after being spot on about Gracie the other night ;-) ;-) Seems like it poops out on me from time to time.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the drive raise his BG or am I thinking of Rusty cuz I know it does have that effect on him. And you're right...you would have time to carb him up a bit for the drive home if he was low tomorrow.

It's good to look ahead. You're doing super. No...YOU'RE THE BEST!!!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

we cross posted. He's surfing :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

SHHHOOOOOOTTTTTTT!!!!!! As long as you feel rested ;-)

Please get a +1 and +2. See you in an hour.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Okay, I understand everything you're saying about then versus now. You said that Leo came right back up after he earned his reduction yesterday - I did steer him pretty good to do it - it wasn't just a casual dip in the pond if you see my notes. Does that affect your thoughts? (I know, probably not.)

I don't have enough data about Leo and BGs during travel. He's been high, he's cleared decently, and I'm not as worried about that.

I had a chat with Leo. He's just standing there, looking at me, saying WHERE'S THE FUDS???
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Yes...you did steer him but you didn't have to do it multiple times to get him up out of really low numbers. If you had fed him HC a couple times and he was still hanging in the 40s, I'd have a different thought.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Aaaauughghghgh! I SHOT! Heeheehee! Peer pressure! :lol:
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Resistance is futile. You have been assimilated. :lol:

BOS for you! Great job!

eta: pls remember to get a +1 and +2. I'll be waiting! :-D
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

No worries, I'm a data nut.

'Nother question. Since I SUSPECT HIGHLY that I will be steering his little a$$, should I proactively change his food? He tanks earlier in the cycle, and I've been wanting to increase some of the carbs. He gets 3 meals a cycle:

+0 1/2 c FF 4-ish%
+1 1/2 c FF anywhere between 4-ish and 9-ish%. I've been giving 5 lately but had been doing loser to 8% a week or so ago. I "reset" things after Dr. Lisa's list came out.
+3 1/2 c FF 4-ish%

I know, Dr. Lisa says there's a bunch of slop in the numbers. Can I jump in with an 11% at his +1 meal to be proactive? Or am I supposed to keep things as "normal" as possible and only step in when he heads south?
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Nice shooting Lisa! I expected borg queen Marje woud tell you to SHOOT :-D You may want see how Leo does and see if he is dropping before carbing him up, avoiding possible oversteering.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Lisa

I wanted to throw a few thoughts your way about his fuds and steering him. Just something for you to think about.

When we were new, low numbers were scary...just as they are for everyone. And it IS important to be respectful of and very attentive to those low numbers. We jumped on the bandwagon of feeding HC (18%) and karo at 40s and 50s. Some of the experienced members told us we didn't need the karo and HC but we were reticent to let go of it.

We also felt Gracie was not responding quickly enough and so we'd pile on more carbs instead of giving her some time (30 min) to use the food. I have no proof and there is nothing to scientifically link it but I think the more carbs for her, the worse the bounces. But that is 150% speculation.

Somewhere along the line, we stepped back and took a hard look at how she responded to what and how long it took her. What I found was that I didn't need any more than a LC food to work for her.....just like I was told. I discovered that it took 30 minutes from plate to meter to see an effect.

I never use more than 10% now except when she is in the low 30s or the 20s, she also gets a drop of karo. (Btw...the 11% on our SS turned out to actually be 5% per Dr. Lisa but I haven't gone back and changed it).

ECID and some cats are much less carb sensitive than others. Leo might need the carbs. But...I'd suggest that when he starts into green at a nice number like tonight, give him a couple tsp of LC. When you retest, if he's still coming down, do it again. See if his 7% food will get him on a surfboard.

Do an experiment and retest in 15 mins...did it effect him yet? Next time, test in 30...try to find out how long between plate to meter when he's at safe numbers.

When we have brand new members, we don't know how their cats respond and so we have them use HC so we know everyone is safe. And safety is and always will be first. But you and Leo have been here a bit and you've handled low numbers. Maybe you want to just think about experimenting a bit when he's at safe numbers.

If you don't...I understand. He's your baby and you know him best. I am respectful of that relationship. Just throwing some ideas out to ponder when you are up for it.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

:lol: we cross posted again.

To answer your question...and Leslie is spot on....I would not carb him up in anticipation of what he might do when he's surfing. If he had been dropping, yes, I'd have given him a little higher LC at his regular time to try and flatten him some.

Leo doesn't appear to be a big +1 food spiker but he's also not an 80 mg/dl an hour diver either.

Des that help? Or not? :lol:
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Marje - thank you, and please do give me stuff to think about. I'd like to have as much knowledge as possible. Let's experiment tonight. I understand the concept, but am a little hazy on how to implement it. Do I experiment like this on his way down to nadir instead of giving his regular meals? He is due a meal at +1. Do I give that meal, or only a couple tsp and do the 15 min testing? Or is that too soon after his first meal?

If you give me info to think about, you *know* I will as 1000 questions :-D

Complicated, I know. But hold my hand on doing this experiment, and let's see what Little Leo does. 25 minutes to re-test and dinner #2 if we do that.

Leslie - thanks for the feedback. That makes sense. I wish there was a formula for all of this!
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Since we are past PS and headed towards +1, lets see where he is there and decide what to feed and when to test. But yes...I like to do it when they are at safe, green numbers. You don't want to try this when they are quickly cruising down into low 50s early in the cycle. :shock:
 
Re: 10/17 Leo AMPS 163 +2 188 +5.5 69 +8 65 +11 93 PMPS 85

Crap. I tested and fed before seeing your note.

+1 83, gave 1/2c 7% normal meal.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83

Sorry!! I thought we had a bit of time yet.

That's ok!!! If he's good at letting you test, check him 15 mins after he ate and see where he is at. Then check him 30 min after he ate (or 15 mins after the first test) and see where he is. Then get a +2. He's going to hate me for all these tests when he's surfing.

If he doesn't like to be tested it's ok.

And now that I'm on my puter and not the ipad, here's your reward!

file.php
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83

I was WAITING for my BOS and was disappointed I didn't get them, but you came through! Yay!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58

Nevermind. I know the answer.

Lisa, shut up and wait to see what the food does. Right?
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54

Leo seems to be leveling off. Give the food time work and use LC unless he doesn't respond to it in a reasonable time. You are doing great resisting the urge to over correct, remember this is ice driving. nailbite_smile
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54

Sorry....had a little disturbance here.

Great self control! I'd give him a couple tsp of LC and see if he will surf. Retest at +2.

Love Leslie's ice driving!

ETA... Lisa....he is low for early in the cycle. I understand if you want to give him more than LC ...it could be a long night. We can try again on another night when he doesn't drop so much from +1.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

Oh my goodness Leo. You sure do know how to have some excitement.

Lisa. You Rock. :YMHUG: Praying for some stamina tonight if this keeps up!!! Its been great reading and learning along with you. Thanks for all the input Marje.

Surf safely Leo. Can't wait to see where this leads you...

Karen
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

Everything good Lisa? How big were the big guns?

Carl
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

HI Carla - wish he would have listened to you! Little stinker!

Ann - please do that. He's running around, attacking things, chasing imaginary bugs. Maggie will be so entertained!
thanim_monkey3.gif


Karen - Leo doesn't mess around. I have coffee and chocolate covered espresso beans - I'm set! Sheesh I'd take a Xanax too for what this cat is doing to me! :shock: Please learn whatever you can - this is when slowing down to stare at the car accident is good. Because I'm going to twist this little cat into knots!!!

Marje - My BOS are quivering
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

I'm with you. It's ok...you are in control. If he's down at +2.5, lather, rinse, repeat. I will stay with you.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

Sheesh Leo. Talk about a party for your mama. Looks like you are going to have a long night.

Fur Ball started doing those drops on me the first week we were on FDMB. Talk about a newbie in crisis. :lol: :lol: So glad you've had a bit more exposure and actually know you have great support behind you!!! (of course, I quickly realized the amazing wealth of knowledge in everyone here!!)

Hang in there. Just wanted to let you know we are rooting for Leo.

Karen
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

+2.5 51

Hmmm...I'll repeat the last mini-meal.

Gave 1 tsp 11% I know from experience he will head back down if I give 4%.

I gave big guns because I knew it would pop him 10 points but he'll lose it in about 30 minutes. I was scared at a 41.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

Great job!! Can I have my drink now? I'll have one for you. See you at +3.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

What did you use for the big guns for Leo? Maybe you can glom some of his energy for yourself . Not surprised your BOS are quivering, ice driving is more than a little exciting at times.
 
Re: 10/17 Leo PMPS 85 +1 83 +1.25 58 +1.5 54 +2 41

Leslie

Aaauauaughhghghg! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I edited my post above. I wanted to pop him up 10 points because I was scared, quite frankly, since we're only at +2.5. It was 1tsp 20% and 1 small drop Karo. I'm trying 11% now to see what that does. If I drop to 4% right away, he turns back around. This is all a balancing act for me, but I'm still new and They're 'a Quivering!

Marje - you're going off drinking?!? What?!? :mrgreen:
 
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