All this talk about phosphorus has me nervous.

How much do we need to worry about hte high phosphorus content of low carb FF?

Dr. Hodgkins was not crazy about Wellness because of the sweets, so I stopped using that. I do, however, have Wysong all meat varieties, and some Call of the Wild supplement. Are the all-meart au jus varieties of Wysong, when mixed wtih the Call of the Wild supplement, "complete" and OK to feed as a primary meal?

I'm not sure I even want to try, since every time I switch Toonces food -- even to something supposedly lower carb -- his numbers go up. We have our best luck with the fancy feast, but the phosphorus discussion is nagging at my brain.

stef

What are the "sweets" as you mention being the problem with Wellness? I was thinking of trying wellness due to the phos. issue too.

I also would like to know how big an issue it is. My cat does not (Knock on wood) seem to have any kidney issues but this new diet is such a change for her, she's done so great on low carb ff that I am sort of half waiting for the other shoe to drop -- I just want to avoid the phos. 'problems' if possible!

Good luck and I'll be checking in to see what everyobody thinks!

How about trying Nature's Variety- it's lower in phosphorus, too, and although it has fruits and veggies in it, it seems to be mostly meat, and Mocha loves it (he didn't like Wellness). You can get it in lamb, turkey/chicken, duck, venson, and rabbit. It's a big hit here!

Honestly..you guys have enough to worry about managing FD :>

Unless your cat has CRF with elevated phos levels, I would not be so concerned about this issue. Limiting phos levels has no protective affect on the kidneys.

Also, no matter what the diet is, you can always lower the phos by adding cooked egg whites...1-2 egg whites/6oz can of food.

Lisa, dvm
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Diabetes
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Urinary Tract Health
[www.catinfo.org] Quality Commercial Canned Foods
[www.catinfo.org] Making Cat Food
[www.catinfo.org] The Litter Box From Your Cat's Point of View
[www.catinfo.org] Pilling Cats and Dogs - The Dangers of Erosive Esophagitis
[www.catinfo.org] TLC Cat Rescue and Adoptions - Pictures of a few of my rescued cats and kittens
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Tubes Save Lives

I too am concerned about what is considered a "high" amount of phospo.. I have a FF breakdown that Purina sent me and it shows Phos. levels in all their foods, some of course higher than others.. does anyone know a "good" number if there is such a thing?
Alot of what I feed Maisy, FF-wise says 0.30%..0.32%..0.45% etc... ???

MAISY GIRL 1994-2009

**HOMETESTING SAVES LIVES!!**
***********************************************
***********************************************
Meet Maisy (GA), Gabby, Allie, Stormy, Seanna, Gypsy, Bella..Mickey (my new diabetic!) and Starr and Sam (the droolers) at
[www.catster.com] Lotsa pics! Lets be friends!

*****Proud owner of rescue/shelter cats!*****

Miss Maisy won't eat egg whites, but she doesn't have CRF.. Thanks Lisa..

MAISY GIRL 1994-2009

**HOMETESTING SAVES LIVES!!**
***********************************************
***********************************************
Meet Maisy (GA), Gabby, Allie, Stormy, Seanna, Gypsy, Bella..Mickey (my new diabetic!) and Starr and Sam (the droolers) at
[www.catster.com] Lotsa pics! Lets be friends!

*****Proud owner of rescue/shelter cats!*****

Does it have any impact on IBD or chronic pancreatitis? That's what concerns me most.

Phil & Lionel

> Miss Maisy won't eat egg whites, but she doesn't
> have CRF.. Thanks Lisa..

Hi Angela...trying to learn here....how much egg white stuff/6 oz can of food did she refuse to eat? Did you try to lower the amount?

I am just trying to get a consensus on cats eating egg whites....

Lisa, dvm
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Diabetes
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Urinary Tract Health
[www.catinfo.org] Quality Commercial Canned Foods
[www.catinfo.org] Making Cat Food
[www.catinfo.org] The Litter Box From Your Cat's Point of View
[www.catinfo.org] Pilling Cats and Dogs - The Dangers of Erosive Esophagitis
[www.catinfo.org] TLC Cat Rescue and Adoptions - Pictures of a few of my rescued cats and kittens
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Tubes Save Lives

Not that I know of.

Lisa, dvm
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Diabetes
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Urinary Tract Health
[www.catinfo.org] Quality Commercial Canned Foods
[www.catinfo.org] Making Cat Food
[www.catinfo.org] The Litter Box From Your Cat's Point of View
[www.catinfo.org] Pilling Cats and Dogs - The Dangers of Erosive Esophagitis
[www.catinfo.org] TLC Cat Rescue and Adoptions - Pictures of a few of my rescued cats and kittens
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Tubes Save Lives

Just curious how cats get CRF in the first place? I know high phosphorous levels doesn't cause it, and helps CRF kitties w/ lower phos.. but how do kitties get CRF in the first place? And IS there a way to protect them from all these? (CRF, pancreatis, etc) or is just feeding a better diet (like we all are ) good enough to keep our kitties the healthiest they can be?

I know, I know, I'm off to search sites for all this.. but I've read them before & never noticed the CAUSE of such illnesses.


-Steph & Cuddles (17 yrs old, DX 5/30/02 3 units SID Humulin U until hypo/h*n*ym**n on 2/2/05)
& civies Bandit, Kami, & Misha (woof!)
See my furkids here!

Besides plain ol' "old age" there's some stuff here [www.felinecrf.com] , to save you some Googling :-)

Robin, Tigger (GA) & Nikita (GA)
Near Tampa, FL, USA
FDMB since 1998
Nikita (GA) ~ b. 02/92, dx 06/01, adopted 10/01, d. 03/08 ~ BCP PZI, about 1.0 u b.i.d. eff. 11/04, prev. Humulin U 3 years ~ Wellness canned ~ DKA survivor
Tigger (GA) ~ b. 07/1988, dx 10/1998, d. 02/2004 ~ Humulin Ultralente for 5.5 years ~ Diet - low carb canned
"Alien Teenagers" formerly known as "The Kittunz!"
"Remember to breathe!"--Mary & Josh (GA), circa 1998
"Regulating with insulin is both an art and a science. You can learn the science - the art takes longer."--Jud & Call, July 2000
"As to diseases, make a habit of two things - to help, or at least to do no harm."--Hippocrates
"The less skilled the player, the more likely he is to share his ideas about your swing."--A Law of Golf

-Steph & Cuddles (17 yrs old, DX 5/30/02 3 units SID Humulin U until hypo/h*n*ym**n on 2/2/05)
& civies Bandit, Kami, & Misha (woof!)
See my furkids here!

Feeding dry food makes the kidneys work much harder than they should have to. The job of the kidneys is to concentrate urine and put the water back into the body. A cat is chronically dehydrated when fed a moisture depleted diet like dry food. There is no reason to ever make the kidneys work this hard.

Second issue...vaccines. Dr. Mike Lappin out of CSU is studying this. I am not sure where he is in his thoughts regarding this issue but it is an intersesting one. Vaccines inducing autoantibodies to kidney tissue.

Lisa, dvm
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Diabetes
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Urinary Tract Health
[www.catinfo.org] Quality Commercial Canned Foods
[www.catinfo.org] Making Cat Food
[www.catinfo.org] The Litter Box From Your Cat's Point of View
[www.catinfo.org] Pilling Cats and Dogs - The Dangers of Erosive Esophagitis
[www.catinfo.org] TLC Cat Rescue and Adoptions - Pictures of a few of my rescued cats and kittens
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Tubes Save Lives

A very good link but I will continue to wonder why the common sense issue of chronic dehydration as outlined in Dr. Zoran's article fails to be recognized as a significant contributing factor to CRF.

Some of the changes due to "old age" are simply due to unnecessarily over-worked kidneys. At least it makes good sense to my pea-sized brain.......

Lisa, dvm
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Diabetes
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Urinary Tract Health
[www.catinfo.org] Quality Commercial Canned Foods
[www.catinfo.org] Making Cat Food
[www.catinfo.org] The Litter Box From Your Cat's Point of View
[www.catinfo.org] Pilling Cats and Dogs - The Dangers of Erosive Esophagitis
[www.catinfo.org] TLC Cat Rescue and Adoptions - Pictures of a few of my rescued cats and kittens
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Tubes Save Lives

Lisa dvm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A very good link but I will continue to wonder why
> the common sense issue of chronic dehydration as
> outlined in Dr. Zoran's article fails to be
> recognized as a significant contributing factor to
> CRF.

Thanks for your input Lisa! My kitties will NEVER go back on dry food if I can help it!

-Steph & Cuddles (17 yrs old, DX 5/30/02 3 units SID Humulin U until hypo/h*n*ym**n on 2/2/05)
& civies Bandit, Kami, & Misha (woof!)
See my furkids here!

Dont forget [www.felinecrf.org] too!!

Lisa and Merlyn (in spirit)
Active on FDMB since 7/04 (est.) Caring for diabetic cat since 4/04.
Janeway , Conor , Merlyn , Carly , petfinder , Tabbys Place , Feline Minds ,
[URL=http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa296/4catsmom/2009picsvids/?action=view¤t=2009-02-10-8M.jpg][/URL][URL=http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa296/4catsmom/2009picsvids/?action=view¤t=2009-02-10-3JC.jpg][/URL][URL=http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa296/4catsmom/2008picsvids/?action=view¤t=2008-12-23-2Carly.jpg][/URL]
Merlyn GA 4/29/09 19yrs, Conor-14yrs civie, Janeway-21yrs civie, Carly-10yrs OTJ
Merlyn Numbers

Thanks Dr. Lisa, for some reason my diabetic cat, Panther stopped liking Nature's Variety. So my best option for low carbs is Fancy Feast. But I was worried that Fancy Feast was high in phosporous and my cause CRF in the long run. Thank you for putting my mind at ease.

My Kiwi isn't a picky eater, but I can't imagine she would eat the egg whites... I'll try, but yesterday she ate around all the "chunks" in a can of FF "Chunky chicken feast" -- left a bowl full of "chunks!"

Thanks Dr. Lisa for allaying my phosphorescent fears. But there is still the second question!

As long as phos isn't a major concern, I will probably stick w/FF for Toonces, because the FF/insulin combo I have pretty much worked out, and oddly, whenever I have fed him raw or cut his FF with Wysong all meat, I've ended up with higher bgs than usual. Could be coincidence, but . . ..

If FF is OK, I will keep using this as primary food, since I know pretty much what his bgs will do on it.

But I still have all this Wysong now, so the question is more for my "civvies." If I mix Wysong all meat au jus w/the Call of the Wild supplent, is it a "complete" food and could I feed that alone and everybody be OK in terms of vitamins, minerals, etc?

Stef

According the the manufacture, yes, it is.

Lisa, dvm
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Diabetes
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Urinary Tract Health
[www.catinfo.org] Quality Commercial Canned Foods
[www.catinfo.org] Making Cat Food
[www.catinfo.org] The Litter Box From Your Cat's Point of View
[www.catinfo.org] Pilling Cats and Dogs - The Dangers of Erosive Esophagitis
[www.catinfo.org] TLC Cat Rescue and Adoptions - Pictures of a few of my rescued cats and kittens
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Tubes Save Lives

j Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My Kiwi isn't a picky eater, but I can't imagine
> she would eat the egg whites...

All of my cats are incredibly picky eaters but before I got to lazy..and was putting egg whites in their raw diet...they were eating it just fine. Now....I would have to run some numbers to see how concentrated the egg whites were in that diet vs the 1-2 egg whites/5.5 oz can that I am suggesting.

But start slow...maybe 1/4 EW/can and work up from there and mash the heck out of them...or put them in a blender so they are uniformly mixed in.


Lisa, dvm
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Diabetes
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Obesity: An Epidemic of Fat Cats
[www.catinfo.org] Feline Urinary Tract Health
[www.catinfo.org] Quality Commercial Canned Foods
[www.catinfo.org] Making Cat Food
[www.catinfo.org] The Litter Box From Your Cat's Point of View
[www.catinfo.org] Pilling Cats and Dogs - The Dangers of Erosive Esophagitis
[www.catinfo.org] TLC Cat Rescue and Adoptions - Pictures of a few of my rescued cats and kittens
[www.catinfo.org] Feeding Tubes Save Lives