Wynken is 96 at +9 (yay!)

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Cara and Wynken (GA), Jan 1, 2016.

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  1. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    I shot the normal dose for the amps this morning and he is doing VERY nicely today! I plan to test at 9.5 and 10 and maybe 11 to try to catch the nadir. Thank you @Robin&BB for the timely advice about steering with food this morning. :joyful: Yay! Will be very interesting to see what his PMPS is!
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
  2. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    This is a a big drop today, pushing almost 300 pts. so far. So depending on what you see at PMPS, you may want to consider a slight reduction = not by much, mind you, but perhaps to 2.2. I get the impression that Wynken's "sweet spot" - at this point - might be somewhere around 2.2 to 2.0. It's only been a little over 10 days since you started controlling his portions, and his body may be starting to process the insulin-to-food ratio better, now that he's not able to eat both his own and a portion of his sister's ;) rations.

    Now if you happen, at PMPS, to see him do something similar to what happened two nights ago (12/30) - meaning, say, you get what looks like a very significant drop between 2 tests 15 minutes apart, make sure you double-check that second test, ok? Just to be certain that what you're seeing in the 2nd test is really happening. That's what I do when I get two tests close together and there's a big discrepancy in the #s that doesn't seem to make sense.:confused: Although I can tell you this: There have been a couple of times that I've seen my cat's BG #s drop/rise by a significant amount at an incredibly fast rate - not all that common, but it does happen sometimes ... That's the interesting thing about diabetic cats: Every now & then, they can just throw you a really oddd curve-ball. I suppose we can just say it helps keep us on our toes!:D

    Please remind me: What time (your time zone) is PMPS? Will try to keep an eye out.:)
     
  3. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Robin - I am giddy again... YES big drop! I tested at 9.5 and he was 69 ( so I immediately thought about steering with food - which I may do here in another minute....) but first I thought I would try hard playing like we did last weekend that raised him nicely. He just played HARD with his mouse on the wand... And after 4-5 min of that I checked again and he was still 69. He feels GREAT! Should I just watch him constantly the next hour and get out the food if he needs it? Maybe just 4-5 Origen dehydrated meat treats?

    Oh, and the blood check is usually right at 6:15 with food and shot at 6:30 ( am and pm) eastern time. THANKS,,
     
  4. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    I would hold off on any steering, for now - do keep an eye on him and check again in about 25 min. (so about a half hr. from your last test).
    Also ... I don't know what the size of your Origen meat treats are. (How many oz. is 4 to 5 of those???)
     
  5. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Two reasons I'd rather you take this wait & see approach for a little longer: You're right there with him (is not like you have to run out the door to go back to work) & you're not all that far away from PMPS time.
     
  6. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Well I just checked his official +10 and he was 64... So I skipped the treats and gave 0.7 oz of Weruva Chicken Frickzee which is listed at 2% carb.... Just felt safer doing that even though I was watching him every second and he was actively walking all around like "where did that dang mousie go?!"....

    I was 15 min late shooting today so his readings have been taken at x:45. The 9.5 was taken at 4:20pm.
     
  7. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Too late... I got a little panicky... :eek::rolleyes:
     
  8. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Ok, Cara - that was just fine! (And the right thing to do at this point.*) Don't give any more - not until you wait about 20-25 min to see if he's rising again.

    *Since he dropped a few more points that quickly, that's exactly the way to have handled it.
    Good job!:bighug:
     
  9. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    And the low-carb was smart on your part, too - I've found that (at least for my cat) using anything but her usual low-carb stuff tends to be overkill.
    ECID, of course, but I'm always happier to see her rise a little more slowly than end up with some big BG spike later on due to over-correcting. (Learned how to handle her by trial-and error.;))
     
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  10. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Ok, will do. I feel like I am a character in a suspenseful movie.... Waiting to see what comes next! LOL. Now he will be higher at PMPS than he would have been.... I will check him at 5:45 (+11) and at 6:15 to see how much change we are getting... It is 5pm here now - any plus side to checking him again before 45 min?

    Also - it could be a coincidence but do they just bleed better at low BG? Got a geyser on both of the 69 readings.... Nowhere to record those on the sheet....
     
  11. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    And it would be my guess that you're going to want to reduce that pm dose a bit tonight, as well ...
     
  12. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I know ... that happened to me just last night when I poked Bat's ear. Sometimes seems to be no good reason for it - except maybe because he'd been jumping around for a while earlier, his blood was pumping a bit harder.
    Ha! Yeah, this is actually better than the movie I was watching on TCM when you tagged me (the old SciFi classic The Day the Earth Stood Still - which I've seen about 50 times in my life already:rolleyes:).
     
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  13. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Only that you should actually be able to see his BG# rising within 30 minutes after you've fed him something ... and as he had been continuing to drop, I'd prefer you check him just a little bit sooner than 45.
     
  14. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Ok good plan. 30 min after that food he is 71...
    .??
     
  15. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    So ... we're still more than 2 hrs. away from PMPS?
     
  16. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    No. It's 5:30 here now and I would normally check at 6:15 and feed/shoot at 6:30.
     
  17. Awesome numbers!

    Just have a minute (@ work!)....
    Dropping below 90 means he gets less insulin going forward. I'm not sure what your scale is, but you'd want to lower by either .2, or .4u for sure if you were to see a 390 like you did this morning. You won't be seeing a 390 tonight!
     
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  18. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Well, we can hope that he rises to at least 150 by PMPS time, or a little past the usual time. We'll just have to see. But if you end up stuck with having to skip a dose tonight: Tomorrow morning - even if you see a high BG# (which I think we can probably anticipate) I'd still be inclined to lower Wynk's dose - not a lot, just some (as mentioned earlier). What I'd be hoping for here is getting him to a dose where you're getting two shootable numbers (both AMPS & PMPS), so that you don't end up - when you go back to work after the holiday weekend's over - stressing about whether he's going to drop too much when you're not home to monitor him. 'Cause the less of that kind of stress, the better - right?;)
     
  19. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Btw - if you don't mind having to shift his PMPS to a later time (being as it's the weekend, and you'll still have time to get him back to his usual schedule before Monday morning), you could try holding out/stalling without food longer than usual (like an hour or so later) to see if you can get him up to a shootable spot. And then if he doesn't give you at least a 150, you can just feed ... and get a really good night's sleep!
     
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  20. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Look at those numbers!! We're close to PMPS right?
     
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  21. @Robin&BB
    If he rises to 150, what are you thinking on dose?
     
  22. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    I'm thinking maybe 1.6 if he gets there - and would want a a test or two mid-cycle, too. What's your take on that?

    ETA: And I'm thinking no more than 2.0 in the morning, even if he's running high @ AMPS.
     
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  23. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    I thought I would type this up since the spreadsheet can't hold it:

    +8 = 122 at 2:45p
    +9 = 96 at 3:45p
    +9.5 = 69 at 4:25p so we played Hard and at 4:32p = 69
    +10 = 64 at 4:45p so I fed 0.7 oz of 2% carb Weruva Chicken Frickazee (gone in 6.18 seconds!)
    30 min later at 5:20p BG = 71
    +11 = 82 At 5:45p

    His poor ears today. :confused:
     
  24. Cara shot 1.6 on a 166 a couple days ago. But the drop below 90 tonight means a reduction. I was thinking 1.0u max?
     
  25. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Actually, that might be the safer choice for tonight - that way, Cara can probably get a better night's sleep, too. (Assuming we even see him make it to 150. But maybe we'll get lucky, eh?)
     
  26. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    This morning our whole routine was 15 min late and so I checked at 6:30 and fed/shot at 6:45. What if tonight I take his PMPS at 6:45 and feed/shoot (or not shoot) at 7? Or delay even a little more, if that get me a slightly shootable PMPS? Or is that a wrong tactic?

    I can wake up to check him in the night!
     
  27. That would be a good tactic.
     
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  28. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Cara, there have been times that I've shot Bat-Bat more than an hour later than her usual AMPS (... have also been times that I've shot her a half hour earlier than usual, too). And it's not really that big a deal, because it's not hard to get back to the usual routine, especially considering that you've got the whole weekend.
     
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  29. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Thanks, Carl. I saw Robin's advice about waiting after I wrote what I wrote. I will stall and see if he is a good boy to do a late ear-stick. He has a watch inside his head that knows exactly when 6:25 rolls around. If the food is later than that, he is not testable, sometimes! Dances around like a fat boy wanting a cheeseburger.
     
  30. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Ha, that makes life interesting, having to ear-poke a moving target!:p
     
  31. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    :bighug::bighug::bighug: Good deal. I will wait. I kinda want to shoot a real low dose. So I am thinking that the 1u if he gets above 150 sounds SO much better than no injection... Hmmm. Why do I think that? Anyway, I will not get up in the night if I don't shoot, but if I shoot anything at all, I will check him. Ok?
     
  32. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    I think a token dose of 1.0 if he makes it to 150 is sane.
     
  33. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    I think it's because your natural instincts are telling you that going from no dose at all & then to a dose of a couple of units for the very next cycle is harsher to his system. And I think your instincts are probably correct!;)
     
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  34. Sounds like a plan! I get off work at 8, and I'll be up late if you need any help!
     
  35. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Now that is funny and quite a visual! Good luck with the reducie!
     
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  36. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Dang... Well I stalled until 6:45 and he's 88. No dose tonight! So I will sleep, and he'll go to 400-500 like he did before, right? Dang. How is this good?
     
  37. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I will chant now: "data collection, data collection". ;) This tells us that the dose was too much this AM for that number. That's information we can use later. Also, we know the insulin is working for Wynk and we know that he can get into the lower ranges. So..there is good news. Plus, since you are skipping, it gives both of you a break tonight. You can both get some sleep and his ears can get a break.
     
  38. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Well ... this is good news in that it's telling you he really does need a dose reduction - and a dose reduction means that his pancreas is waking up!:joyful:
     
  39. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    So here is the table @Sue and Oliver (GA) gave me before his pancreas started waking up. (Thanks, @Robin&BB )

    200-250 - 2.0 u
    250-350. - 2.2 u
    350+ - 2.4 u

    Sue - I would love to hear from you about reducing... Where do we go from here? Or do we need more data this weekend? Love to hear from anyone else as well! That's why this is a FORUM. (And I love it. A lot.)

    My goal is to get him more level and lower numbers overall... Eventually OTJ would be great, but that isn't my immediate goal -- or should it be? These greens and blacks so close together, while exciting, are disturbing to me....
    Thoughts??
     
  40. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Here's what I've been thinking, Cara: Earlier on, when Wynken was eating as much as he could get away with while sharing a dish with Blynken, his rations day-to-day were variable ... and when you were jumping from one dose adjustment to another, his system was probably reacting to that differently than it's doing lately, now that his portions are carefully controlled. So there may be two things in play here:
    1) He obviously needs a dose redux, and ...
    2) He may be one of those kitties whose body reacts better if you find his "sweet spot" dose and hold it for several cycles. Some cats do great on a sliding scale; some don't. I personally didn't do a whole lot of sliding around until I got my cat down to a really, really tiny dose. (Not that there aren't times that you really do need to make a sudden shift - like tonight, where you're having to skip. And when that happens, we can usually anticipate that the next pre-shot # is going to go higher than we'd like.) After a situation like this one today, I think it's very important to not overreact to that higher #; in other words, even though the # has gone high at the next PMPS, you still want a lower dose than the last time you shot him because the drop in that cycle had been really, really deep.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2016
  41. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Was writing the above, when you post showed up re: that scale. Cara, even if you're seeing 350+ @ AMPS tomorrow, I think he's telling us that 2.4 is too much. I'd be looking more at 2.0 --- to 2.2 max.

    ETA: And yes, would love to see @Sue and Oliver (GA) weigh in here, too.:)
     
  42. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Well, the 2.4 looks like too much to me for the 350+ range. I agree that having two shootable numbers a day is important for him and for you. It is so hard to guess how much to reduce; so much easier to figure out an increase....

    Will you be around to monitor tomorrow? If so, what do you think about 2 for 350+? That could be too much - if you aren't comfortable with that, then 1.8? I am assuming that he will be in that range. If any lower, then subtract .5 or even .8 from the scale?

    My thinking is that you are home so this is a good time to find a dose that is safe for you to leave him with come Monday. Even if we are dropping too much, we can use the data to help see how much to increase by Monday.
     
  43. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Here's what I've been thinking, Cara: Earlier on, when Wynken was eating as much as he could get away with while sharing a dish with Blynken, his rations day-to-day were variable ... and when you were jumping from one dose adjustment to another, his system was probably reacting to that differently than it's doing lately, now that his portions are carefully controlled. So there may be two things in play here:
    1) He obviously needs a dose redux

    Robin, I agree with everything you are saying. But I wonder.... Maybe he just needs less insulin on less food? Maybe his pancreas is not waking up? Hate to be negative but wonder if he only needed the higher dose when eating 6 or 7 oz per meal?
     
  44. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Yes yes. That all sounds right. I'm here all weekend. I'll have 4 cycles starting in the morning to figure it out. Will appreciate input along the way. Thanks, Sue!!:bighug:
     
  45. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Nah! He's been on less food for about 12 days now. I do think his pancreas is starting to kick in. (Hey, you're not really one of those "the glass is half empty" people, are you? 'Cause if you are ... we can change that over time!;):bighug:)
     
  46. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Robin will help you keep that positive outlook for sure! She's one of the most positive people I "know". Which I love!

    Looking forward to seeing how the reduced dose works for you, Cara!
     
  47. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Well, my Colorado Cowboy fiancé would say he's the upbeat one in the relationship (and he is!). :facepalm:

    My problem (according to him and some others) is that I over-think everything. I have to consider EVERY possibility. I find that as I get older though, this makes me tired! :bookworm::nailbiting::confused::(

    So I'm going to go take care of my kidney kitty girl who needs fluids (CKD) and think positive thoughts about Wynk's pancreas! :D:joyful:

    Thank you, Robin!!!! :bighug:
     
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  48. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    @Rachel Oh, trust me, Rachel: I certainly have my black moments! Like this morning, when I woke up and saw that Bat-Bat had decided to celebrate the New Year by eating part of a festive Christmas ribbon:
    Bat Ate a Holiday Ribbon for NY Day.jpg And this was my reaction: :nailbiting::mad::banghead::banghead::banghead::(:eek: (I'm sure you can imagine the expletives.) I think she chewed off and swallowed about 1.5"-2" - it's very thin fabric, and only about a 1/2" wide. But it's also somewhat shiny, which makes me wonder whether it has some nylon in it. I'm hoping that her stomach acids will break it down so that she just poops it out tomorrow. So now we're on Tootsie Roll Patrol.
    It's a first for us; she's never pulled anything like this before! So ... it was a real "WTF?!!!" moment. Sheesh, what a way to start 2016!
     
  49. Rats, I was really hoping for a 150+, lol.

    OK, Wynk has told you twice in the past three days that he needs less insulin. The important part, to me, is how he has shown you this. It is NOT because his cycle ran "too long" and gave you a non-shootable number at PMPS. Long cycles are a GOOD THING, and if every cat had long cycles, there would be a lot more cats going OTJ than there are. Long cycles, caryover, and overlap are all your best friends, no matter what anybody thinks. You just have to know what to do with them when you see them happen.

    The reason that Wynk needs less insulin is because he dropped to 90, and he dropped to 64 at nadir. On your meter, both of those numbers scream "less is best", no matter what his preshots were, and no matter when the "nadir" happened in the cycle. What Wynk might also be telling you is that he has decided to become a "late nadir kitty". Unusual, but not unprecedented. Ask Bobbie what dealing with a late nadir kitty is all about. ;) Heck, there's a kitty named Gracie who sadly crossed the bridge recently that nadired at +14 regularly. Think about how much fun that was to wrap your head around!

    Wynk's drops have both happened on a dose of 2.4u, once on a AMPS of 390, once on an AMPS of 456. He's saying "Mom, I'm done with a 2.4u dose, okay?" Of course, all of the protocols are set up to make dose adjustments of .25u or .5u, but since you are using U100 syringes and the conversion chart, none of your doses ends in an odd digit. So you'd have to think in terms of .2, .4 or .6 when increasing or decreasing. Personally, in this case, I'd go with a reduction of .4u

    I do, however, agree in priciple with what Robin said earlier:
    He may be one of those kitties whose body reacts better if you find his "sweet spot" dose and hold it for several cycles.
    The issue there is "what dose"? I think 2.0u is good for a PS number above say 325, but what if he throws a 275 or a 225 at you? In that case, 2.0 might be too much. That where instinct and gut feelings come into play. You do have a good bit of data, but the big factor in the last two weeks is that you went with "portion control" (good idea), so that makes the data prior to that a little less useful as far as determining a good dose for various preshot ranges.

    If you want to try using a scale, taking Sue's scale from above:
    200-250 - 2.0 u
    250-350. - 2.2 u
    350+ - 2.4 u

    and adjusting like so: (this assumes a no-shot cutoff of 150) ?
    150 - 225 1.0u
    225 - 325 1.4u or 1.6u
    325+ 2.0u
     
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  50. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Oh Robin what a weird thing, when she's never done it before. Crap! (Literally!) so you just have to keep looking for it in her poop!?
     
  51. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    @Carl & Polly & Bob (GA) thanks so much for all of what you wrote! It is a lot to think about for sure... but all this input from all of you is sort of coalescing in my head, and helping me understand not only what approach to use next, but more importantly how to think of this disease and how to treat it.

    When the nadir happened was never something I gave much thought to (other than wondering when to test so I could know "how low he went". A +14 nadir sounds really complicated! :confused:

    Thanks again!
     
  52. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Hey Cara, I've been watching with interest ever since you questioned about Bubba's late nadir on Carol's thread, I think it was yesterday? The thought crossed my mind about Wynken too. It is certainly something for you track and can really help you when you are pondering whether or not to shoot a lower number. We are so lucky to have all this great help here on the forum. :)
     
  53. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Yep! And I'm pretty sure she did it out of pure spite because she knows she's not allowed up on that countertop - I'd chased her away a number of times already (although not because she was going after the ribbon; she wasn't - she just wanted to be up there). But I really scolded her heartily last night ("Bad kitty! You're a really, reeeeeally BAD, BAD KITTY!!!" And I punctuated it with a lot scowling & finger-wagging in her face). She was giving me the ol' stinkeye for the balance of the night, I kid you not! Maybe I should just change her name to ... Brat.
     
  54. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    This forum is so WONDERFUL, I agree. :D

    So if you have looked at Wynkens sheet is there anything about his nadir (which seems delayed recently to me) that reminds you of Bubba?

    I would look at your spreadsheet, but I just finished doing my evening chores and I have not eaten dinner yet and it's almost 10 PM. This happens to me quite frequently. I will look at it later, tho. :cat:
     
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  55. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Meanie,Mommy, LOL. The counter seems to be Bubba's favorite place now in pursuit of food. Both are brats!
     
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  56. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Well, you will need to hyphenate it. You know like: Bad-Bad or Brat-Brat. ;)

    Haha!

    I think I told you earlier when I saw your kitty cat's name that I had a calico cat with a mask that I named Bat Girl. I called her "batty-bat-bat". I lost her at 16 this past July. But she is in my heart!!
     
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  57. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    When I saw your post on Carol's thread, I did look at your SS and he does seem to have a later nadir most of the time but not always. The difference between Wynken and Bubba's is that Bubba's preshot values are actually his nadirs where Wyken's nadirs look to be mostly in the +8 -+9 range.
     
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  58. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    That's right - I remember that! And 16 ... wow. So sorry you lost her, Cara. It seems that the longer we're blessed with having them in our lives, the deeper into our hearts they burrow.
     
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