Yosh is at 134 preshot

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Stressedcatmom, Apr 12, 2017.

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  1. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Remember that vets are also basically general practitioners...they have to treat a lot of different animals for a lot of different diseases. So they have to have a lot of general knowledge. We here at FMDB treat cats for diabetes...so we have a lot more knowledge of that. Plus vets are going to be more conservative usually since they can't be there for you and your cat 24/7.

    I think the plan Kris laid out is perfect.
     
  2. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I've had no real need for them except a few cat colds and injested hair ties. This is the
    Most that I've worked with them. She is allowing me to curve at home and home test, so she is working with me.

    I feel like they don't get it or help much. I'm always sent to a vet tech who has to talk to the vet before I hear anything, so I often just email her directly.

    This vet is super young. She's only been practice a year
     
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  3. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    You're right. Maybe I shouldn't be so hard on them. But after spending 1000$ + on his diagnosis.... I'm just baffled by...everything.

    I appreciate you guys more than you know. Thank you
     
  4. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Even if you find a more experienced vet, it's unlikely they will be very helpful with FD. Like Rachel said, they are general practitioners, and this is a very specific and somewhat complicated thing. It sounds like your vet is supporting you in taking charge of your cat's diabetes, and that's super helpful.

    You might tell your vet about this site. My vet told me that he has spent time on here since my cat was diagnosed and he's learned a lot from reading this forum!
     
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  5. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    This is a good thing!

    See our previous comments. My vet is great and has said to me that she has other FD cats who took to insulin and got regulated very easily. She doesn't know how to handle a case like my guy's so I just do my own thing and let her know periodically where we are.

    Not necessarily a bad thing. She might be less entrenched in her attititudes and more open to owners asking questions/doing things differently. Rather like young human doctors these days - they have a harder time acting like the fonts of all knowledge with human patients.
     
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  6. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    You guys should have a talk show. We could all bring our cats as guests and do cat things. It would be all the rage.
     
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  7. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    I might be looked at negatively for this but Maury has not been to a Vet, nor has one been updated on his condition, since 8 February :cat:. I trust my Prozinc family more than any Vet I have talked to. :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  8. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Sam hasn't been to a vet this time either. His initial diagnosis was through the vet, but when he relapsed a couple of months ago, I just called the vet and he had a new bottle of insulin waiting for me to pick up. He is going soon though just for a general check-up/blood work. I definitely believe vet care is important. It's just a matter of keeping in mind that they can do things we can't do (blood work, diagnostic tests, etc.), but that just like with our own health, we take some responsibility too.
     
  9. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Once I started home testing, my vet basically let me do my own thing. I didn't even have to bring her in to get new insulin...just called and ordered it. I would just take her in for her checkup when needed or when she seemed like she was getting sick.

    She has since retired and the vet I go to now has quickly realized I know a lot about my cats (even though they are all civvies). He's been great about letting me ask questions and understanding that I am going to do my own thing to an extent. I feel like I will stick with him because he knows this about me and accepts it...if you find a vet who will work with you, that's really all you can ask.
     
  10. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    He's at 141 +2. His poor ear :/
     
  11. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    That's a pretty great +2 on such a tiny amount of insulin! Are you putting pressure on the ear as soon as you've taken the blood sample? It really does help reduce the bruising. What size lancets do you have?
     
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  12. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Well that's good news....

    I do. I use 28.
     
  13. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any lancets that are a higher number? The higher number, the thinner the needle. At the beginning, it's easiest to use 26 or 28, but if you're more comfortable with testing, and if Yoshi's ears will bleed enough now, you might try the thinner lancets and see if they leave less of a mark.

    Also if you aren't already, you might try to rotate where you're poking. I go right back, right front, left back, left front. That gives each place some time to heal before I poke it again.

    But regardless, try to remember that testing is often harder (emotionally) on us than it is on our kitties. And also, that you are doing this to help Yoshi, and that it's an essential step to keeping him safe. His ears are going to be okay. Sending you hugs! :bighug:
     
  14. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! So you go inside the ear too? Or what do you mean?
     
  15. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I just got 100 of the 28 o_O
     
  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry. Two quite different numbers can happen. You could try a third test or go with one of these for your SS. Let's see where he is 2 hours from now. After that test you could feed him so he has 2 hours without food for the following test.
     
  17. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    No no, I meant 28 gauge lancets! Sorry for the confusion. He was at 141 +2
     
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  18. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    It's fine to keep using those. There isn't that much of a difference. I use the back side (although you can use the inside of the ear too - but Sam has long hair inside his ears so that gets in the way). I use the side of the ear closest to his body, and then the side closest to his face. So in this picture....

    upload_2017-4-14_8-32-24.jpeg
    The "sweet spot" is shown on the right. I also use the part on the left toward the top that has a lot of capillaries as well. And on a day when I'm doing a curve and taking more samples, I'll aim for the top of the sweet spot on one test, and toward the bottom of the sweet spot on another test. Just trying to space out the pokes.

    Other people just use the same spot and their kitty isn't bothered by that. You just have to decide what works best for Yoshi.
     
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  19. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Ahh. Thank you. I know about the sweet spot, but I didn't know you could test on the other side of it.
     
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  20. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    He's at 128 +4. I had to poke 3x. His ear is red and has so many marks on the edge I don't know where else to prick. The sweet spot doesn't generate much for me. It's just below it near the edge that works for us. But again, it's kind of full of little marks.

    I was shaking after that one. Hopefully I can stop in 2 hours.
     
  21. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    It's okay....take a minute to sit down and breathe. Yoshi is okay, and so are you. I think curve days are tough too, but you're going to make it through this.
     
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  22. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Are you warming Yoshi's ear before doing the test? Put uncooked rice in a small sock, or other pouch-type fabric, warm in the microwave for a few seconds, and hold to his ear to warm it first. It makes a world of difference for Sam. He doesn't bleed at all if I don't do that first - or don't wait long enough for his ear to warm.
     
  23. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Yep. I'm doing everything. He's at 162+ 6 I feel like this is bad. It's the highest he's been in a while :(

    I think we are done with the curve. The vet said I could stop after the sugars came up. He was growling etc. Could be elevated from stress. Dunno but we're done.
     
  24. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Is it weird that he was at his lowest at +4? I thought it took 6 hours to be at lowest?
     
  25. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    The nadir can move around day to day. Generally it's between + 5 and +7 most of the time with ProZinc but every cat is different, and different on one day compared to another. Those blues are actually very nice numbers. They could come down a little and you might want to try a curve on 0.5 u at some point.
     
  26. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what the vet will say his dose should be until then. I just asked her. Hopefully she gets back to me before pmps
     
  27. Frank's Mom

    Frank's Mom Member

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    Are you holding him down when you test? You shouldn't have to restrain him much, but when I first started....I would put Frank on the floor and like saddle him so he was confined but not really restrained. Food in front of him, and the testing on his ear. I know every cat is different, but there's got to be an easier way for you to test that won't upset him so much.
     
  28. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    He wasn't that bad until the last poke. He actually usually sits and sort of let's me do it now. He can get fussy but only when blood doesn't come out right away or if I'm shaking and fiddling with the meter.
     
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  29. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I put him up against the arm of the couch and I'm on the other side.
     
  30. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Are you putting everything at close reach and partially inserting the test strip? Then you can get Yoshi in position, warm his ear, push in the test strip, poke his ear and by that time the meter will be ready to take a reading.
     
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  31. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Yep. I do that exactly.
     
  32. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I am doing it freehand. Maybe I'm doing it too lightly sometimes
     
  33. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I do it freehand too. I find that Teasel's ear bleeds very well if it's warm but not so well when it's cold. That seems to be the most important factor for him.
     
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  34. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    You did a great job today! I know that was stressful, but the data you got today will really help. Sam's nadir was usually between +4 and +5 as well. Now it's kind of all over the place. But knowing that Yoshi's nadir might be a bit earlier can help you focus when you get the mid-cycle tests to get the most helpful information. That's one of the reasons why doing a curve is so helpful (even if they are a stress). And those are really great numbers - especially considering the tiny doses last night and this morning.

    If you don't hear back from the vet (and really, even if you do!), you can post here after your pre-shot test, and before shot time for some guidance on the dose.
     
  35. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. I plan on it :)
     
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  36. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    She got back to me and thinks we should reduce to 1 u. Says if below 150 not to give insulin. She was very nice and said she didn't mind the questions I had. She said that she relies on me so we can decide the best treatment options.

    I'll let you guys know what he's at at preshot then I'm going to give his ears a break for a bit.

    I'm exhausted! Thank you all again.
     
  37. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I don't understand. Your vet said to reduce to 1u and yet your last three doses have been 0.5 u, o.25 u and 0.25 u? Those doses gave you some quite good blues.
     
  38. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    This is what she said: Let’s go ahead and decrease Yoshi’s insulin dose to 1U twice daily. If he is below 150 on his blood sugar when you are able to take a pre-shot reading, skip the insulin. Otherwise, give 1U. The insulin syringes are barely accurate at 0.5U, so I would not bother trying to give 0.25U – just skip.
     
  39. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    The reply is below. Posted in the wrong place
     
  40. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I understand. Yes, vets often don't see the point of microdoses. They also change doses in half or full unit increments. However, many people here would disagree about the effect that a tiny dose can have. I like that she's advising caution at a BG of 150 - ie., no shot. As for the rest, well we can agree to disagree. How do you feel about all this?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  41. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I'm open to suggestions. You guys have helped a lot this far.
     
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  42. Frank's Mom

    Frank's Mom Member

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    Wow, you got some good numbers today! My vet poked fun at my .25 increments as well. She said....how do you even measure that? My answer was "very carefully". I think you should stick to a dose between 0 and .5, even if it isn't exactly .25. Yoshi is looking good on .25!
     
  43. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmm...that is curious that the vet would want to keep the dose so high. I think if you are willing and able to test during the mid-cycle tonight, you could try it. However, if you aren't up for testing tonight, I would be worried about giving the full 1u on the numbers you're getting the past few cycles. Please know that by nature of being a peer-reviewed forum, no one gets their feelings hurt if you make an informed decision that differs a bit. There may be slight differences of opinion about dosing, but we are all here to help and support. That being said, I would either stick with .25u since nighttime cycles are often lower than daytime cycles (there isn't any PM cycle data for Yoshi, so we can't be sure if that's true in this case), or go with .5u, but try to get one more test (in addition to the PMPS) before bed to make sure he is safe. Something around +4 would be ideal, but if that's too late in your timezone, a +3 will still give you an idea.

    Of course, all of this depends on the PMPS number. If Yoshi is low again, we will need to reconsider.
     
  44. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    GREAT job testing today!

    I disagree with your vet about the microdoses...we've seen them to have good effect in other kitties on this board. And clearly, they've been doing well for Yoshi!

    Considering all the testing you did today, I would want to give a low dose tonight if he's low again...I'd probably go with 0.25. That way, you hopefully won't end up with needing to do many tests after all you did today.

    1 unit just seems awfully high with the numbers he's been getting lately...that is just my opinion. If you do decide to go with that, please make sure you get several tests in and have a hypo kit ready to go in case.
     
  45. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Here's another observation: Yoshi has given you blues since he's come down in dose. Those reds, blacks and pinks at higher doses tell me that he was overdosed and bouncing then.
     
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  46. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    135-150 I would do 0.25
    150-180 I would do 0.5

    I am loving that pmps number! Your best yet! Your really going in the right direction.
     
  47. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Hurray for another low dose (range) suggestion! Thanks, Janet! :D
     
  48. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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  49. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Omg he's at 144 pm ps WTFFFFF

    Pardon my French.
     
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  50. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Lol...I have a feeling Yoshi wants to be done with this insulin thing. What are you thinking about the dose tonight?
     
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  51. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry! We all have that language in our repertoire for use as needed. This is one of those times. See - microdosing is a thing!! I like Janet's recommended scale. What do you think?
     
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  52. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Interesting
     
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  53. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Is there a jump out if my window dose?!
     
  54. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Lol...I think .25 will keep Yoshi safe and let you have a peaceful night. I'm pretty sure 1u would have made you want to jump out of the window...;):confused:
     
  55. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. It seems by "law" it should be nothing. Or .25? I know for sure I do not want to poke him tonight. This last one was another battle with his other ear. We both need a break. I honestly can't believe I had the nerve to do it this much
     
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  56. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Lol
     
  57. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    If you would be more comfortable skipping the shot tonight, that's okay too. You hold the syringe and need to make the decision that you think is best.
     
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  58. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    There are people on FDMB who are very experienced in phasing a kitty into a solid remission that lasts. They don't usually advocate stopping insulin cold turkey. You could post on the main forum and ask for help dosing a kitty nearing remission.
     
  59. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I think he'd be fine on .25 and his evening snack and a few well deserved temptations
     
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  60. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    I know you did a bit of poking today but this is new territory, please try to get a before bed test to make sure he's OK for the night :). Yoshi is looking really good :cat:
     
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  61. Frank's Mom

    Frank's Mom Member

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    Temptations....I think those are a thing of the past in my house. Your numbers are great! I'd celebrate with a few treats of my own, if I were you.
     
  62. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Sarah...you deserve a nice glass of wine or some chocolate or something!
     
  63. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't give temptations. Once my cat was low so I gave like 3 temptations.... It sent her up almost 100 points. It's like giving a person a donut. I always gave cold cuts (turkey, ham, roast beef). for a snack.
     
  64. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I gave him just one and a couple freeze dried chicken things
     
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  65. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I gave .25 and he ate like a champ and I think it's time for me to leave the house and get some air. Thank you for all of your support and advise. I honestly can't thank you all enough. I have learned so very much from all of you, and I never thought I'd be able to do this, or understand this. You all have helped US beyond measure.
     
  66. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I'm really interested in this. What is too much of a dose and bouncing? This may have been the case. The blacks were cat treat invasions.
     
  67. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Too high a dose can look like too low a dose in that they can both cause high BGs. Here's the thing I wrote to explain bouncing to someone else:

    Here's how it works:

    1. BG goes low OR lower than usual OR drops too quickly.
    2. Kitty's body panics and thinks there's danger (OMG! My BG is too low!).
    3. Complex physiologic processes take glycogen stored in the liver (I think of it as "bounce fuel"), convert it to glucose and dump it into the bloodstream to counteract the perceived dangerously low BG.
    4. These processes go into overdrive in kitties who are bounce prone and keep the BG propped up varying lengths of time (AKA bouncing).
    5. Bounce prone kitty repeats this until his body learns that healthy low numbers are safe. Some kitties are slow learners.
    6. Too high a dose of insulin can keep them bouncing over and over until the " bounce fuel" runs out and they crash - ie., have a hypo episode. That's why we worry so much about kitties that have had too high a starting dose prescribed by the vet and the owner isn't home testing.
    7. Many vets have little/no understanding of the bouncing phenomenon.
     
  68. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. So the insulin drops the BG and then the cat freaks out and compensates for it, and this combined with the additional unnecessary insulin makes them high? I think? I'm probably way off
     
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  69. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes.
     
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  70. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Just wanted to stop in and say your SS looks good!! You're doing great!
     
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  71. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Thank you!
     
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  72. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    156 am preshot.
     
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  73. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    .5 I'm thinking
     
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  74. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I think that sounds good. If you can get a test around nadir (maybe +4.5) that would be good info. You had some room to safely drop yesterday, but making sure Yoshi is hitting a nice green on that dose would be good.
     
  75. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good. I wanna see some dark green numbers today!
     
  76. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    :D
     
  77. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    :bighug:
     
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  78. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I hope you do see some greens!
     
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  79. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Doing great Yoshi and Jen! I vote for some dark greens too! :D
     
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  80. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks everyone! We shall see! I'm scared to say anything! No telling what's going on inside his orange cat body. Hopefully some green
     
  81. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Close! 104!!!!!
     
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  82. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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  83. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    You could try a +5 if you really want to see a green. :) Or you could just want until tonight or tomorrow. I have a feeling they are in your very near future...
     
  84. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    I won't be home. I have a feeling if I would of waited a bit he would've been in green. He tried to run with his brother and got on the couch so I figured he was close to green. He gave me a wide eyes look like, "why do I feel so good?!
     
  85. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I love hearing that!!! I'm so glad he's feeling well! Glucometers are allowed a 20% variance, so really, you could count that 104 as green since 20% lower would have been green!;)
     
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  86. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    108pmps. No insulin, I know. Do you think the .5 dose was too big this am? Maybe his nadir is after 4.5? Gah. It's my first night no insulin and I'm kinda bugging out. I hope he's not at 85794 in the am.
     
  87. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Did you already feed and past shot time?
     
  88. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    LOL....That cracked me up! It seems there is a trend of low PS numbers tonight (Why didn't my cat catch it??!) You can still without feeding for 20 minutes and test again if you want to try to give a dose. or you can skip and feed.
     
  89. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Mar 16, 2017
    Yes already fed. Shot time is between 730 and 8 my time so I have 10 min
     
  90. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Ugh...that is supposed to say "stall without feeding", not "still without feeding"
     
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  91. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    (I'm saying the f word repeatedly) Totally just fed him. Thought it wouldt go up too much if i stalled
     
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  92. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Maury didn't either ;)
     
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  93. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    I'm an English teacher and my typos are because I'm always in a state of panic and either rolling insulin or opening a can or pacing while the phone is in one hand with this damn cat on my back while typing here. No worries
     
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  94. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Oops...if you already fed, then nevermind anyway. In the future, you can still without feeding, re-testing in 20 minute increments to see if the number rises enough to shoot. You can do that for up to an hour.

    Honestly, it's never once worked for me, but it works for lots of other people.

    As for the dose, it's hard to say if the .5 was too much or not. I think you'd need to see if this happens again. And yes, it's definitely possible that his nadir was later today.
     
  95. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    Hooray! Another teacher! There are a bunch of us here!
     
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  96. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    I just didn't think it would go up enough. Plus his ears are still pricked to the core. Should I give a couple high carb treats and .25?
     
  97. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

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    Mar 16, 2017
    Awesome! What grade? What do you teach?
     
  98. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    You don't want to push it up with carbs. The idea is to see if he's rising on his own without food influence :). Go ahead and stick with no shot tonight but I would still try to get a reading in a couple hours.
     
  99. Stressedcatmom

    Stressedcatmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    I hope both of yours get some low ones tomorrow. But not too low. Gah
     
  100. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    I was an elementary teacher (mostly first grade) for 20 years, then I did reading intervention for a couple of years, and now I work at the district level. I just started that last year though, and I really miss the classroom. Trying to decide what I want to do next year....
     
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