New Member asking for help

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Hresko, Dec 1, 2020.

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  1. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Hello All!

    I am a new member searching for some guidance. I have a 13 year old male cat who is struggling with pancreatitis and diabetes. He was diagnosed about a year ago with a urinary tract infection, pancreatitis and diabetes. He was put on Lantus beginning with 1 unit two times a day and given antibiotics. Every few weeks we would test his blood levels and they were not getting any better and they kept increasing his dosage until he go up to 7 units twice a day and his levels were higher than the first day we took him to the vet. I read on here that he could possibly getting too much insulin so I lowered him to 4 units a day and for a few weeks he was absolutely doing better. He was much more active and we noticed a difference. After almost $2,000 in vet bills the vet recommends that we take him to an Internist because she doesn't believe she can do anything for him. I'm not willing to do that because that's not how I want him spending his days.

    Does anyone have any recommendations? I'm thinking about switching his insulin to the Walmart brand that humans use without a prescription or trying another type. My vet said Lantus is the only type of medicine they are trained in using on cats.

    I have all his readings if t will help. His last reading on 7 units 2 times a day was 571 - 426.
     
  2. SashaV

    SashaV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2020
    Your vet is right. Stay on lantus.

    We need to see more numbers. A few weeks worth would be awesome!
     
  3. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you. Here you go these numbers are over a long period of time since she only wanted us taking them every few weeks:

    April 1, 2020 2 units twice a day readings taken right before breakfast and an hour after dinner

    496, 354, 309, 224, 474

    April 13, 2020 2 units same schedule

    475, 421, 411, 424, 439

    April 29, 2020 3 units same schedule

    406, 398, 389, 376, 388

    May 19, 2020 /4 units same schedule

    498, 369, 504, 389, 548

    June 5, 2020 /5 units same schedule

    391, 417, 329, 297, 441

    June 19, 2020 /6 units same schedule

    449, 453, 300, 390, 427

    August 20 /6 units same schedule

    504, 418, 329, 237, 374

    September 23 /7 units same schedule

    571, 542, 570, 493, 426

    October 21, 2020/4 units same schedule

    457, 362, 338, 467, 517

    We feed only Fancy Feast Classic canned food.

    Thank you so much for any guidance you can send my way.
     
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  4. Lisa and Witn (GA)

    Lisa and Witn (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Hi and welcome to FDMB. We can help you with managing your cat's diabetes.

    Lantus is a good insulin, however, unless there are other health issues, 4 units is still probably too much.

    Can you tell us what you feed your cat? Is it canned food, dry food, raw food or a combination? Diet contributes significantly to managing FD. Cats do much better on a low carb or canned food diet. However, before you change his diet, you will also need to lower his dose and also plan on home testing. Switching to a low carb diet can significantly drop glucose levels, so without changing the dose, you risk your cat becoming hypoglycemic.

    Home testing means testing your cat's glucose levels before every shot to verify it is safe to give the dose and determine if a dose change is needed. You can use either a human glucose meter or a pet glucose meter. They both work well, but the costs of using a human meter is less expensive and the test strips are more readily available. We can help you learn how to test.

    Are the readings you posted above from home testing or the readings from the vet's testing?
     
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  5. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you for your reply

    We feed Fancy Feasts Classic Canned cat food and occasionally baked chicken.

    The first reading he had was at the vets in March 2020 an was around 450. All the readings that you see above are taken at home with a pet meter.

    The vet had us take the above readings right before breakfast, then every three hours and one after dinner.
     
  6. Lisa and Witn (GA)

    Lisa and Witn (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Thanks. Are you feeding the Fancy Feast Pate flavors or bits, shreds, or flakes? Pate flavors are lower in carbs than anything with gravy in it.

    Also, we recommend that you should start testing everyday before every shot. The order is test, feed then shoot. This also includes the reading at dinner time. This is the best way to tell how well the dose is working and if it is safe to give the insulin.

    When the dose was increased, was it increased by whole units or in small increments? Most cats only need between 1-2 units twice a day. If an increase is needed, it is increased by 1/4 to 1/2 unit at a time and at least a week is needed between dose changes to give the body time to adjust to it. If it was increase by 1 or more units at a time, you may have missed your optimal dose.
     
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  7. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    We feed him only the pate and tuna/shrimp flaked which that said is low in carbs.

    When the dose was increased it was always in one whole unit increments and had check the blood levels every two weeks so basically we started at 1 unit twice a day and kept going up another unit every couple of weeks.

    I can test him before each shot. He's currently getting 5 units twice daily. Do you recommend I lower that and if so to how many units?

    Thank you so much I really appreciate your help. I don't what else to do at this point.
     
  8. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Hi there I'll tag @Lisa and Witn (GA) for you, I see she has been
    speaking with you.

    You might want to purchase the syringes with half unit markings, we increase and decrease by 0.25 units at a time.
     
    Hresko likes this.
  9. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    • when you get a chance ,It would be helpful if you can set up your signature so we don't have to ask you the same questions over again.
    • It appears after each post in gray, look at mine, also take a look at Tyler's spreadsheet to get an idea of what I explained above



    • On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature. This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback.
      • There is a limit of two lines which may include two links; you may separate pieces with commas, dashes, | etc. This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
      • Add any other text, such as
      • Caregiver & kitty's name (optional)
      • DX: Date
      • Name of Insulin
      • Name of your meter
      • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
      • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
      • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
      • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
      • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
      • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.
    Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.


    tap on your avatar where it says your name ,then hit profile page ,tap on that ,then go up to the very top, upper right hand side and tap on your name ,it will bring down a drop box, tap on signature, the signature will be under settings, tap on the signature then and you can start to add what I posted above, make sure you hit save ,
    Welcome to the best place you could ever be and an awesome group of people
     
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  10. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

    You might like to set up a spreadsheet we all use to track our cats BG so that
    members here can look at it in order to give you advice on dosage.

    If you have trouble setting it up let us know , we have two wonderful members here that will set it up for you.

    I will post the link that will explain what it all means.
    You can take a look at Tyler's , its says Tyler's Spreadsheet at end of my post.
    You can also look at any other members spreadsheet.
     
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  11. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Hresko likes this.
  12. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Hi Ladies trying to tag members who might be able to give @Hresko
    some advice

    @Deb & Wink

    @Chris & China (GA)

    @Wendy&Neko


    She said she in her post above

    I am a new member searching for some guidance. I have a 13 year old male cat who is struggling with pancreatitis and diabetes. He was diagnosed about a year ago with a urinary tract infection, pancreatitis and diabetes.

    Guess it's probably best to read her posts.
    Thank you ladies :bighug::cat:
     
    Hresko likes this.
  13. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    I agree with the others, stick to Lantus. The Walmart insulin you are referring to is no good for cats. I also agree with the others, we can help you. But in order to do so, we need to see more data. I am glad you are home testing, that's a good start. The next step is the spreadsheet Diane has linked. It's a very handy tool we all use to visualize how the insulin is working in your kitty. Once we see how 5 units is working with your cat, we can figure out where to go next.
     
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  14. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Thank you @Wendy&Neko :cat:
     
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  15. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    That is an NPH type insulin, that rarely last more than 6-8 hours in a cat, and is not recommended. It drops the BG levels hard and fast, and can lead to hypoglycemia.

    What we can't tell from your list of BG numbers and dates, is which numbers belong to which testing times, and which numbers are for your evening (PM) test.

    It's why putting your results in our standardized spreadsheet would be so helpful to see.

    Since we all live in different time zones, we express the number of hours between BG tests in a + hour format. The + indicates how many hours after the pre-shot test.
    So 2 hours after the pre-shot test would be +2, 4 hours after would be +4, etc.
     
  16. Lisa and Witn (GA)

    Lisa and Witn (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I agree with Wendy to wait until we get more data. The diet is good, so there is no need to change it.

    Since you are starting to test daily, I recommend that you skip the dose if the reading is below 250. This is a little higher than what we normally recommend, but since you are giving 5 units, I am concerned that his glucose levels may drop too low. If you can also test midway between shots, that will also help us determine his NADIR (lowest point the BG goes with the dose).
     
  17. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you I do have the syringes with the half unit markings
     
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  18. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Hi Diane. I found the signature you referred to. Are you saying that all the information below (not the spreadsheet) but the other information you requested does it go into the signature area or attach to the spreadsheet?

    Also, I'm struggling with the spreadsheet I don't understand it and I don't see any explanation for what the columns mean. I even asked my son to help me and he doesn't get it either.

    I appreciate all of your help!



     
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  19. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020

    Thank you. I'm trying to understand the spreadsheet now.
     
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  20. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020

    Thank you I didn't see the instructions but now I do.
     
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  21. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
     
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  22. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020

    Working on spreadsheet but may not get it done for a few days. I'm a therapist and I'm swamped and taking a class weekends but no excuse I will get it done. All of the numbers are based on the first reading is right before breakfast at 6:00 am and then every three hours and then the final reading is one hour after dinner and the shot at 6:00 pm
     
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  23. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
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  24. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Do you recommend that I complete the spreadsheet after I begin this new way of testing? My readings go back 9 months so I'm not sure they are useful. Also, I forgot to mention he is a large cat weighs about 17 pounds. He's also really having a hard time right now lethargic.
     
  25. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Just the last couple weeks of test data in the spreadsheet is enough for us to see the trends. Nine months is too much of an ask! Maybe just put a not near the top when he was diagnosed and that older data is not entered.

    There are some secondary endocrine conditions that cats can get that mean they need more insulin. My girl Neko had two such conditions, acromegaly - a benign pituitary tumour which sends out excess growth hormone, and IAA or insulin auto antibodies, sort of like an allergy to injected insulin. She got up to 8.75 units of Lantus, but we have cats on even higher doses. A cat needs however much insulin they need. Provided they started at a safe dose and testing was done to know that increases were safe.
     
  26. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I haven't tested in awhile. Should I give him what I've been giving him 5 units for two weeks testing him twice a day before each shot and then enter the data? I know his numbers are very high by his behavior.
     
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  27. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    It's also important to try to get some tests in between the shots. We determine how to change the Lantus dose based on how low the dose takes the cat. If we could get 4 tests a day for 3 days, that's enough for us to get some idea what to do with the dose. So that's two tests before the shots, and 1 other per cycle.
     
  28. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I have just completed day three of Kitty Boy's tests. I attached the link to my signature. Please any help I can get will be greatly appreciated. As you can see his numbers are very high. What dosage should I give him next?
     
  29. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Thanks so much for getting that spreadsheet up and running. It really helps us get an idea what is happening. Is it at all possible for you to get a test before bed? Right now the night time cycle only has preshot data, meaning we don't know what he is doing at night time. Many cats go lower at night. Even a test 2 or 3 hours after the PM shot time will give us a lot of info.

    The reason I'm hesitating right now to give an answer on dose, is that it's possible we are missing some lower numbers and his body is doing what we call bouncing. If we had a night or two of data, we could eliminate that and I'd suggest an increase. But if he is going lower and bouncing, then he might need to go lower in dose. Here is the definition of bouncing.
    Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).
     
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  30. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you for the reply. I didn't see this before bed so I can't get a shot. I must have misunderstood the directions. Super frustrated. Please confirm if this is what you need: I'm running out of strips more coming Thursday.

    Four shots a day for three days?

    One before breakfast, one in the middle, one before dinner and one three hours after dinner shot?

    Or, do you just need the bedtime one for a few days?

    Thank you.
     
  31. Pookie (GA)

    Pookie (GA) Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2020
    I suspect you just mistyped, but to be clear, she's recommending tests, not shots on this schedule:
     
  32. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Yes that is correct. 2 shots a day. 4 tests a day
     
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  33. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    • when you get a chance ,It would be helpful if you can set up your signature so we don't have to ask you the same questions over again.
    • It appears after each post in gray, look at mine,



    • On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature. This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback.
      • There is a limit of two lines which may include two links; you may separate pieces with commas, dashes, | etc. This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
      • Add any other text, such as
      • Caregiver & kitty's name (optional)
      • DX: Date
      • Name of Insulin
      • Name of your meter
      • Diet: "LC wet" or "dry food" or "combo"
      • Dosing: TR or SLGS or Custom (if applicable)
      • DKA or other recent health issue (if applicable)
      • Acro, IAA, or Cushings (if applicable)
      • Spreadsheet link. Please put the signature link on the bottom line of your signature information, on its own, so it is easy to find.
      • Please do not put any information about your location in the signature for security reasons. If you wish to add your country location, please add it to your profile.
    Be sure to click the 'Save Changes' button at the bottom. If you need help urgently it is important we know these things at a glance. We don’t want to waste valuable time finding out information.


    tap on your avatar where it says your name ,then hit profile page ,tap on that ,then go up to the very top, upper right hand side and tap on your name ,it will bring down a drop box, tap on signature, the signature will be under settings, tap on the signature then and you can start to add what I posted above, make sure you hit save ,
    Welcome to the best place you could ever be and an awesome group of people
     
  34. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I believe the spreadsheet link is in the signature and contains all the information except for the food.
     
  35. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Can I just take the nighttime test for a few days without taking all the other readings please let me know. Thanks!!!!!
     
  36. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Welcome from me too. I’m glad you set up a spreadsheet. Any night tests you can get will be helpful as many cats drop lower at night. If you get a +2 even will give us a clue. Which other readings do you want to slip? You always need an AMPS and PMPS.
     
  37. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you. I'm going to begin again and take 4 tests including a night time then I'm looking forward to suggestions on changing the dosage.
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  38. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Hi your signature is not set up look at the end of my post, do you see where its in grey writing, it's at the end of every ones post, just follow up he instructions I
    gave you :cat: Tap on your name to the left that says Hresko, then tap on where it says profile,tap on that and you will see the word signature and continue from there
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
  39. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020

    I updated his chart after taking a nighttime test. Also, it appears the shots are doing very little for him. I'm super anxious to try another dosage beginning tomorrow morning since he didn't even go down 10 points after his shot. Please let me know if I can begin another dose tomorrow morning? Thank you so much! His numbers are so high and I feel bad for him.
     
  40. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Hi your signature is not set up look at the end of my post, do you see where its in grey writing, it's at the end of every ones post, just follow up he instructions I
    gave you :cat: Tap on your name to the left that says Hresko, then tap on where it says profile,tap on that and you will see the word signature and continue from there
     
  41. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Okay I have done my best with the signature you keep mentioning. Because I'm not sure how to change the file name I just have the link to the spreadsheet and that takes up the two lines I see I have on the signature line. I've entered all the answers I have in the spreadsheet, food and such. I apologize but I don't know what else to do
     
  42. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Ok this is fine :cat:
     
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  43. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you I added in a few items I hope that helps!
    :bighug:
     
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  44. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Great job, one question on your spreadsheet it says diagnosed 3/2020
    Your signature says 3/2019
    Only asking because it does make a difference when members have to give dosing advice :bighug:
     
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  45. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
  46. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
     
  47. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Great I see you fixed it on the SS. Thank you
    I have tagged the members that I have seen talked to you on your posts, hopefully
    Soon you will get a reply :bighug:
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
    Hresko likes this.
  48. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    If you ever want to tag someone after the last work you type make a space
    then it would be @ and the persons name I always like to tag on a separate line, if you put in the first couple of letters of their name a drop box will appear with names and you can tap on that

    Here is an example I will tag you
    @Hresko if it's in blue you did it corrrctly
     
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  49. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you I feel so supported here!!!
     
  50. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Did your cat Kitty Boy get insulin for the AM (morning) on 12/7/20? No dose listed on your SS.
    If no insulin was given, or you think you gave a "fur shot", then note that on the SS please.
    No insulin would be recorded as 0 (zero) units in the Units column.
    A possible fur shot, gets noted over in the Remarks column there on the far right. Plus, you can put a question mark after the dose amount in the Units column, to go along with that note in the Remarks column.

    Hold old is your vial or pen of lantus? Trying to see if it's still good. The 5U of lantus insulin does not seem to be doing much for Kitty Boy.
     
  51. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I did not give him insult on 12/7020 because I was trying to just get the nighttime reading that I didn't know about. I'm not sure what I fur shot is but I'm guess when you miss and inject into the fur? I lift up on his neck skin and give him the injection. The lantus pen is about one week old and was refrigerated until it was opened. You are correct that the insulin doesn't seem to be doing much for Kitty Boy in fact it seemed it did better on the lower amounts. Thank you for taking the time to reply.
     
  52. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I did not give him insulin in morning on 12/7 because I thought all that was needed was the nighttime reading I didn't know about previously. I entered in the missing information. I'm not sure what a fur shot is but I'm assuming it's when you miss the shot going in. That isn't an issue or I haven't done that in a long time. My Lantus pen is about one week old and was refrigerated once it was opened. I agree the insulin isn't doing much for Kitty Boy and it seemed he did better on the lower dose. I appreciate you taking the time to reply.
     
  53. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Evening numbers are in and how is it possible that his levels go up after a shot? Please advise I don't feel comfortable giving him a shot that is making his numbers go even higher. We are giving the shot correctly and the insulin is new. I am looking for direction of what dosage I can give him tomorrow morning because the 5 units is not helping. Thank you.

    @Deb & Wink @Diane Tyler's Mom @SashaV @Wendy&Neko @tiffmaxee @Pookie
     
  54. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    The 0 recorded as units yesterday is showing up as lime green, which has another meaning on the spreadsheet (< 68). Better to do NS (no shot) or Skip as the units. What does the 0 mean at +6 yesterday? A "fur shot" when accidentally all the insulin doesn't go in, either because of technique or the cat squirming or walking away. You would smell insulin on his fur - it's quite a strong smell.

    When you skipped yesterday, that drained the depot, meaning that you are not seeing the full effect of the 5 units dose today. I wouldn't worry about the slight rise tonight - both numbers are within the possible meter variance allowed by the manufacturers.
     
  55. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Okay all ~ I have to stop now and share my frustration. I have spent hours trying to do everything the way I'm being asked so I can get some relief for my cat. I have different people telling me different things and it appears each time I make a correction, I'm told it's wrong. Examples: I am told I only need to take three tests a day for two days. I do that religiously and post the results and I'm told I'm wrong again I need another test at bedtime for two days. I ask do I just need the bedtime test or all the tests throughout the day (asked twice) and no one answers me so I just take the bedtime test and I'm told I did it wrong again. I did not enter the times I didn't take a reading and I'm told I need to put a 0 in the chart and then I'm told that's incorrect.

    So here I am about to feed my cat and although I've been given multiple, repetitive suggestions on creating the perfect spreadsheet and how to add my signature and tag people not a single person has answered my question on what dosage to give my cat. I'm super frustrated right now. I'm going to use my own judgement and just go with 4.

    I believe that each and every one of you cares about my cat and wants to help but can you please get on the same page? I feel like I'm spending so much time and energy trying to get everything right and it doesn't live up to the expectations and still have no idea what dosage to give him.
     
  56. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Hi, I’m sorry you are finding it all so frustrating. There is a lot to learn and I know it can be overwhelming especially when you are worried about your kitty.
    I think you will find Wendy is waiting to see some more BG data before she recommends an increase. Kitties often drop lower at night so that is why we especially like to see some night time data..

    Our main aim here when helping you is to ensure all kitties are safe and to do that we have to be able to see enough data in the spreadsheet so we can make an informed decision about whether your kitty needs an increase or not.

    I would stick with the 5 units for now. If you reduce to 4 units you will drain the depot some more.
    Bron
     
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  57. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I do appreciate the reply and I don't like to lash out but I'm in tears right now. I appreciate you acknowledging my frustration.

    I don't know what BG means but if that is bedtime shot I was told two nights of three hours after shot and that is what I have to the best of my knowledge in my spreadsheet.

    Okay one more day of 5 units a day and the only reason I even am thinking about lowering is because he did worse the higher his dosage in the past.
     
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  58. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2015
    Sorry... the BG means blood glucose, the test that you do to see what the blood glucose is.
    The “shots” are what we refer to when we give the insulin dose......we may say “When did you shoot“ For example.

    Yes it’s great you have got a bedtime test in to see if the numbers are dropping the last couple of nights. That is very helpful.
    Hang in there. We all know how overwhelming it is in the beginning. :bighug:
    You really have come to the best possible place. We have very experienced people here who understand feline diabetes very well.
    Bron
     
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  59. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020

    Thank you
     
  60. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    Most people give insulin right after a meal, which makes the cat's BG go higher. After a while the insulin will kick in and start to lower the BG. My cat has chronic pancreatitis and at times his BG will shoot up, his vet says it is when his pancreatitis is bothering him. I go through all the things that you are saying your cat does, because of Buddy's pancreatitis. It is a rocky road, if you can find some answers, maybe I can too.
     
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  61. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Good for you on getting another test in last night. It's looking a lot like he needs more insulin, but that one more day of tests will let us know for sure. I have seen spreadsheets (including that of my own cat), where the cat goes low over night and bounces or goes high during the day, over and over. If all you test is during the day, it'd look like the cat needed more insulin, when in fact they needed less. I am just trying to make sure your kitty is not hiding some low numbers from us before telling you to increase, if in fact he needs a decrease. The one more day of tests will confirm that.

    Do you have syringes with 1/2 unit markings on them? I rather suspect the 5.5 unit dose will be next. We make changes by 1/2 unit at a time, because are responsive to smaller dose changes.

    I see you've been testing at +6 every day. You don't have to test then, unless it's what's most convenient for you. A typical low point in Lantus is at +6, but many cats aren't typical, mine again an example. Any tests you get in the +4 to +7 range will be good ones at this point. I know some people come home from work to test and there is just that time they can test. Again, it's OK, but there is some flexibility if you want it.
     
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  62. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you yes Kitty Boy does have Pancreatitis. Have you found a dosage that lowers his readings? If so, how much is he getting?
     
  63. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I work from home and I can test anytime. I am taking the tests when i was told to. I'm not clear what you are saying are you asking me to test at night? I have been testing 3 hours after dinner around 8:30. Thank you
     
  64. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    My cat Buddy has chronic pancreatitis most of the time, his BG numbers are all over the place. I can give a dose of insulin at times that will drop him down, other times it barely moves his numbers and this is because of his pancreatitis. I am having better luck with his eating since his vet let him have .75 prednisolone 2 x a day. I don't remember if you mentioned anything about your kitty eating. I am watching this very close because it sounds like my Buddy.
     
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  65. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I don't have problems with him eating if that's what you mean. His entire life revolves around eating at this time. I'm definitely feeling defeated the shots are actually raising his numbers.
     
  66. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020

    Good Evening,

    I have all the readings that I've been asked for. I am awaiting direction on what dosage to give him as you can see from the chart 5 units is not the correct dosage for him.

    Thank you.
     
  67. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Your night time test times are fine for now. I was just saying if you want to move the day time tests around, you can. It's actually a good idea to move them around a bit and fill in more of the picture of what is happening. So I was suggesting sometime in the +4 to +7 time frame.

    Try 5.5 units tomorrow morning.
     
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  68. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Okay thank you. In the beginning we attempted to get his blood from his ear but were not successful. We have been taking it from his paw. What works best for you?
     
  69. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    This is not about taking Bg readings, I just wanted to share this with you. My cat Buddy has been insulin resistant at at times got up to 10u 2 x a day, at that time there was a lady on this forum who helped a lot and kept pushing me on or we would not have made it. Every 7 days I raised Buddy's insulin dose 1/2 or 1 unit, after a certain amount they say to raise a whole unit, and after what seemed like a long time I started seeing results. If I were you I would try this it will not hurt your cat. I have a lot of problems with getting Buddy regulated because of his constant pancreatitis and keeping him eating. At this time he is eating and I am so glad. I know this is so hard when other cats are taking 1 or 2 units of insulin and everything seems so easy for them, but it is not for everybody. I raised Buddy's dose to 5.5 the same time you raised your cat's and I have seen no difference, but the week is not up and if I can keep things going in another week I will raise him again, maybe 1 unit. Keep trying.
     
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  70. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you so much for this it means so much to me. I had completely given up on Kitty Boy as much as I didn't want to I just didn't see any results. It bothers me so much to stick him every day and see absolutely no results and it seems the more insulin I give him the higher his numbers go. I listened to my gut and I changed his dosage to 1 unit and please let me explain. The vet originally had us give him one unit and she kept upping the dosage until we got to 7 units and it kept getting worse. I feel better about just beginning at one unit and see what happens. I'm getting conflicting information. Some of the members so I only needed to take four tests and day for two days and then I could adjust and you are saying one week. I'll do whatever it takes I'm just wondering about his quality of life he's not happy and all and I just feel like I keep giving him meds and they are not helping. Thank you for listening I really do appreciate your message.
     
  71. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    Buddy, at 1 time was diagnosed as being insulin resistant from Michigan state. After he got to 10 u 2 x a day he started coming down and his dose started going down, but he has always needed more insulin than most cats. The doctors at Michigan said to hold a dose for 7 days and I believe it is what they say Start Slow Go Slow. Our problem is when he gets sick he will not eat and I must force feed him, after he starts getting to the point he will eat he won't eat what he ate before. Then I need to find something he will eat and start over trying to get the right dose. Buddy, is very sensitive and cannot eat much fat or it makes him sick. At this time he is eating Royal Canin Glycobalance(spelling) a lot of people will say he would do just as well with Fancy Feast but it makes him sick. Did you say that your cat has IBD or I thought I saw that.
     
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  72. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020

    He was originally diagnosed with a urinary tract infection that took two rounds of antibiotics to treat and pancreatitis. The vet said she did what she could and wanted to refer us to an internist after getting no consistent results from 1 to 7 units of insulin.

    I'm so sorry sad Buddy has such a hard time eating. That must be tough That is Kitty Boy's entire life right now waiting for his next meal.
     
  73. SashaV

    SashaV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2020
    Huge hugs from me! :bighug:
    We've all been where you are, every single one of us.

    Here's the dictionary to this forum, it might be very helpful and interesting! These people are amazing, but its like they're speaking a different language :rolleyes:
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/dictionary/cat-health-dictionary-fdmb.htm

    You're doing great! Just hang in there, it's going to be a lot easier with time.
    But first of all, everybody needs to talk the same language so they at least understand each other. This is where the dictionary is very handy! :bookworm:

    I've read it several times the first few months. I don't know where you're from in the world, but I'm Danish. So my English was really bad, and I didn't understand anything... TR, AMPS, PMPS, UNITS, DM, BG, GA... I really needed that dictionary :D:D:D

    Well I definitely won't get an A+ any time soon, but at least I'm not saying I feed my cat vomit anymore :p:D
    And since I'm Danish.. I didn't even know what AM is, or most important WHEN it is. :banghead:

    Just ask, if there's something you need explained, something that doesn't make sense, anything really. We are here for you!
     
  74. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    My cat Kit Kat is always called Kitty Kat. A lot of cats are high dose cats, just keep plugging on.
     
  75. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    I understand that you are starting over with 1unit to find the right dose for your kitty. I hope that this helps you and him to get things right for Kitty Boy.
     
  76. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    I don’t want to throw too much of a wrench in your thinking but Wendy, who is one of our most experienced members especially with cats who are higher dose like Kitty Boy, suggested you raise the dose to 5.5u twice a day and leave it there six cycles. You started but then you dropped his dose to 1u bid.

    This is called a “rebound check” and in ten years here with hundreds and hundreds of cats. I’ve seen it work twice and it was very evident the cat was overdosed. Kitty Boy does not look overdosed. He looks like he needs more insulin.

    I would put him back on 5.5u at the next shot and make sure you get 3 tests each cycle including the preshot. For the other two tests in the a.m. cycle besides the preshot, please try and move the tests around so a +3 and +7 one day and a +2 and +6 another, etc. At night after the preshot, I’d grab a +2 and before bed.

    Here is the spreadsheet of a cat I’ve been working with the caregiver. The CG did a rebound check and went from 4.5u to 0u and restarted at 0.5u. You can see how long it took us to get him back to a good dose which we had to do more slowly because he had totally stopped insulin for several cycles. The CG had data from last spring and the kitty was mostly in high numbers similar to Kitty Boy. I believe he dropped finally because the dose got to a good dose but the CG wasn’t testing enough to catch it and finally did catch it...then stopped insulin when the kitty just needed a lower dose. The depot drained and the kitty ended up in high numbers.

    I know this has been confusing and you feel you’ve gotten different advice and I’m sorry about that. But I am on the same page with Wendy and a few other of the experienced members like Bron that the dose you had him on was not too high. He will need more insulin but first, get him back to 5.5u so we can get his dose stable and the depot stable and then get him on correct dose adjustments.

    @Teresa & Buddy I appreciate your input to help here. I just want to add that some kitties, like Buddy and Kitty Boy, take some personalized help and while their SSs might look similar, the approach we take might not be. It’s good to share what you went through but I wouldn’t suggest copying that dosing but, instead, an experienced member should help with the suggestions on dose increases. :) Again, it’s great to share what worked with Buddy but it might not work the same with Kitty Boy.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
  77. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Starting over at 1 unit for at cat that was getting 7 units and not going hypo, is a HUGE step in the wrong direction. Some cats need more insulin than others. My girl got up to 8.75 units. It turns out she had two conditions that cause insulin resistance. I did the "start over at 1 unit" when switching from Caninsulin to Lantus, and it took me 3 months to get back to where I should have started.

    With a cat in such high numbers as yours, please test for ketones daily. DKA is a very real concern when you drop the dose. From this note on DKA and ketones,
    The basic recipe for developing DKA = an insufficient supply of insulin + inappetance + infection OR other systemic stresses. I have seen cats get quite sick when their caregivers dropped the dose. You have the insufficient supply of insulin piece of the formula. Pancreatitis is a system stress, that's the second piece.
     
  78. SashaV

    SashaV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2020
    Has anyone explained what a depot insulin is? How it works? You're all taking about draining the depot, but if one doesn't know how it works...
     
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  79. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
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  80. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you so much for your support I appreciate it!!!
     
  81. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you for your reply. I put him back on 5.5 units. The only reason I wanted to begin at 1 unit is because I've tested him from 1 to 7 units and I didn't see results. I felt like I was injecting him with a medicine that his body wasn't absorbing and it also seemed the higher the dose, the more lethargic he became. I trust all of you and I know you are only trying to help me. I am going to test when I can but it will not be 8 times a day.
     
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  82. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you for this information. I have put him back on 5.5 units.
     
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  83. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    I am well aware that these are 2 different cats and that ECID. I wanted to share with her that other cats also take a high dose. I never suggested that she copy Buddy's dosing or any one else's, or make dose increases. Also, I never said that anything worked for Buddy, I did say that I held a dose for 7 days. If you feel that I said something inappropriate or gave dosing advise that was not my intent, only to be of moral support.
     
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  84. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Yes, as I noted, it’s great that you are offering support.
     
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  85. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    The best way for us to tell if a dose is too high is to see how low the dose is taking him. We can only know that with tests and the number of tests per day is not set in stone. That’s why I suggested three per cycle including the preshot. That’s six tests a day. While some of us can get a good idea with four tests a day, if you want him to make progress, it would be really helpful to have six a day.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
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  86. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    I have a question. I ordered a people meter Auvon because the PetTest is $1 strip. The PetTest has a 0.3 ul sample size and the new meter is 0.7 ul. I didn't notice this before I ordered but I'm having a difficult time getting blood out of him let alone needing more. Do you think I should return this for another? I only have one more strip for the PetTest system.
     
  87. Pookie (GA)

    Pookie (GA) Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2020
    I sure would. My first meter was a pet meter, but I soon switched to a Walmart meter (relion premier classic) not only because it was economical to purchase ($9), the strips are inexpensive (100 for $18), but because they can be bought locally. (When you need strips, you need strips. Having to order online and wait for delivery isn't a great option.)

    The Relion Premier Classic requires a .5 microliter sample. If I recall correctly, their "compact" model only requires .3. (I had planned to get that one but my local Walmart didn't have one in stock.)
     
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  88. Larry and Kitties

    Larry and Kitties Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    The Relion Confirm and Confirm Micro only need 0.3ul of blood but those have been discontinued. The other Relion meters like the Prime and Premiere require 0.5ul of blood. Seems that only pet meters need only 0.3ul but the strips are too expensive.
     
  89. Teresa & Buddy

    Teresa & Buddy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    A lot of us on FDMB use Reli-On PRIME from Wal-Mart. The meter I believe is less than $20.00 and the test strips are not expensive at all, don't hold me to this but I think you can buy 100 test strips for around $ 17.99. It is a lot easier when you are running low to go to Wal-mart than wait for the mail to deliver test strips.
     
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  90. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you. I will go to Walmart.
     
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  91. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Don't remember what gague lancets you are using. You should be using either 26 or 28 gauge lancets. They will make a bigger hole on the ear. I freehand just using the
    lancet, no lancing device.

    Are you warming the ears , fill a small sock with rice and warm it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to make sure it's not too hot.

    You can also fill an empty pill bottle with warm water and put it on his ears
     
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  92. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Always aim for the sweet spot warm the ears up first, you can put rice in a sock and put it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to be sure it's not to hot, like you would test a babies bottle. You can fill a pill bottle with warm water and roll it on the ears also
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    6. As the ears get used to bleeding and grow more capilares, it gets easier to get the amount of blood you need on the first try. If she won’t stand still, you can get the blood onto a clean finger nail and test from there
     
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  93. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
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  94. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you Diane that video really helped. We have been getting the blood from his paws because I wasn't sure how to do it from the ear but seeing that video it looks easy.
     
  95. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Can any of you nice helpful people helping me look at Kitty Boy's chart and let me know if I can adjust is dosage. Please note that we switched to a human meter and it's reading lower than the pet meter. I indicated this in the chart. Thank you!!!!!!!:bighug:
     
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  96. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Tagging @Wendy&Neko to ask her to comment on dosing for you when next she's online.

    Love the pic of Kitty Boy! :cat:


    Mogs
    .
     
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  97. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you!!!!!!!!!
     
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  98. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2012
    Since I've last posted, you've been doing an awesome job testing! Thanks, it helps make dosing suggestions easier. Plus I see you have a picture of your Kitty Boy in the avatar too. :)

    OK, on the dose. I think we can say, thanks to your testing, that he's not on too high a dose. I think you can try 6 units next. With the testing you are doing, and modest size increases, we'll be able to get you and Kitty Boy safely to a dose that gets him into better numbers.
     
  99. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
  100. Hresko

    Hresko Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2020
    Thank you I appreciate all of your help. Is it normal for the pet and human meter to be so different? His numbers are much lower with the human meter.

    I will begin giving him 6 units tonight.
     
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