Spike Won't Eat Today! Please Help!

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Lee Renfro, Jan 30, 2023.

  1. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...tle-of-prozinc-yesterday.270260/#post-3040124
    Thanks for the food chart @FrostD. It's so hard to thread this needle of diabetes AND ckd. I bought Spike 2 cans of Royal Canin Aging 12+ loaf with sauce to get him off the ProPlan UTH. Hopefully, it isn't too bad for him (he LOVES it) and the prescription food will be in at the vets Monday as they promised. I made the vet swear that the one she ordered would be fine as far as carbs went, wouldn't contribute to bladder stones by having too much magnesium, and was of course gentle on his kidneys and did the job. Now my little buddy better love it when it arrives or I'm screwed. Spike isn't normally very finiky, but it'll help if he loves it like he seems to love the royal canin senior aging 12+ stuff I gave him today.

    Thank you so much for the list of foods.

    I've got more questions about things like using phosphorus binders too.

    Spike has taken to staying pretty close to me lately. He probably senses that I'm worried about him and he's getting extra attention.
     
  2. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Well, you have options for phosphorus binders. First you can try just using the ultra low phosphorus food from the vet (the K/D) and then rechecking bloods in about a month and see where you are with phosphorus. Second, you can add in a phosphorus binder like Epakitin (which is a weaker phosphorus binder) as long as his blood calcium is within normal limits. The stronger phosphorus binder is Aluminum Hydroxide powder and it is mixed into EVERY single meal. You want his phosphorus level to be at approximately 4.
    From the felinecrf.org page:

    "The first line of phosphorus control is to feed foods low in phosphorus, ideally a therapeutic kidney diet. Survival of cats with naturally occurring chronic renal failure: effect of dietary management (2000) Elliott J, Rawlings JM, Markwell PJ, Barber PJ Journal of Small Animal Practice 41(6) pp235-242 found that feeding a reduced phosphorus therapeutic kidney diet provided effective phosphorus control in two thirds of the cats in Stage 2 and 3 CKD. In addition, the cats eating the therapeutic kidney diet lived more than twice as long as the cats in the study who ate normal food with no phosphorus binder."
     
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  3. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    So they go on to say that if your cat is eating a therapeutic kidney diet and still has phosphorus that is too high, it's time to start the binders. I would start with the therapeutic diet. When did your vet want to see Spike again?
     
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  4. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I was at vets as they were unloading and checking in their shipment today! Wish us luck on the Hills Science Diet K/D with chicken that she got for us. There are better options out there on the list of prescription foods such as the Waruva WX. Seems to be much better numbers.

    She wants to do more bloodwork in 5 more weeks from today per our last visit on the 21st. I couldn't speak with her today because she was in with a patient while I was there. I wanted to ask her about phosphorus binders, but you basically answered my question...wait and see what the diet food does first.

    The great news is that Spike seems to love his new food and had already knocked out almost 1/2 a can just since 6:30pm. That's how he eats his favorite foods, so thats a relief for me.

    He seems to be happy and comfortable today, as always. He can tell that I'm worried about him and has been sticking close to my side, sleeping next to me, and generally just being a good boy.

    I'm thinking about getting a cat water fountain, if you think that would be a good idea for hydration purposes.

    You and @FrostD are a true blessing for Spike and me. Thank y'all so very much for helping us.
     
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  5. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Anything that you can do to get them to drink more water is a good idea. I’m really happy to hear that Spike likes the new food.
     
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  6. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I spoke too soon. He was nauseated ALL NIGHT, his bg shot up to the 500's and I'm certain that the food I got from the vet is WAY too high in carbs. I've got a call in to her as I type this.

    I think I've found that the hills science diet k/d chicken pate is 32% carbs. I SPECIFICALLY asked the vet to ensure that the ckd diet would be compatible with the diabetic condition and be low carbs. I feel like ripping them a new ass right now!!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
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  7. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Lee if this is what you're feeding
    https://www.chewy.com/hills-prescription-diet-kd-kidney/dp/54567
    It's too high in carbs
    I did a search
    The nutrition of Hill's Prescription Diet k/d Early Support Chicken Canned Cat Food is clinically shown to sustain kidney function and healthy body condition in cats with early kidney disease. It contains approximately 0.59% Phosphorous, 34.5% Carbohydrates and 34.1% Protein on a Dry Matter Basis.


    Bring back what you bought from the vet tell her or him he won't eat it. You should get a refund

    BTW Spike is gorgeous

    @Lee Renfro
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
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  8. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I see you mentioned the Weruva WX
    Check this out about the weruva WX food
    https://www.amazon.com/Weruva-Focused-Chicken-Formula-Gravy/dp/B0B5YJH28R
    Directions


    This food is not complete and balanced and should not be fed as the only meal to cats on an everyday basis. Consult your veterinarian about how to fit this food into your cat's diet. Feed according to the age, size, and activity level of you rcat. If fed alone, feed 1 OZ for each pound of bodyweight daily, best fed in multiple feedings throughout the day. Your cat shoudl have access to clean, fresh water. Refrigerate after opening.

    Also 2 members have commented on the Weruva WX
    Here is the link
    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...d-not-meant-as-main-food.273361/#post-3038119

    @Lee Renfro
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
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  9. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Here is a list that one of our members did She wrote down the protein carbs & phosphorus #s in a notebook.
    BFF play chicken Checkmate
    Protein 31%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 129%
    BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
    Protein 32%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 129%
    BFF play chicken cherish
    Protein 31%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 135%
    BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
    Protein 31%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 136%
    BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
    Protein 32%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 149%
    BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
    Protein 31%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 154%
    BFF play chicken & duck destiny
    Protein 32%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 165%
    BFF play chicken & beef best buds
    Protein 33%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 171%

    @Lee Renfro
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2023
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  10. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Just curious was this a prescription food or did you buy it in a pet food store?
    @Lee Renfro
     
  11. Angela & Cleo

    Angela & Cleo Well-Known Member

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    Hi Lee @Lee Renfro .
    So sorry to hear of Spike's CKD diagnosis but how sweet of him to take care of you with snuggles and purrs :cat:.

    Does Spike need a 'therapeutic' diet?
    Here is the link to the CKD food chart. https://felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm
    It has the dry matter basis for the prescription CKD foods and also the non prescription ones.
    The website itself is an overwhelming wealth of information also.

    This is a link to foods with moderate phosphorus and low carb for diabetics. It was updated earlier this month and has metabolizing energy basis. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FgeL2qBuKaiBwsF1EQ7TzkhxQnbLb4_-/view

    Stay well!

    Angela

    I'm not great at reading labs. Hope you can find something on these links to help and that Spike likes.
     
  12. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    Yes, this is the exact food that I waited all week to come in at vets. And was promised that it was OK for his bg and all was researched and checked out....lol
     
  13. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Go and get a refund from them :cat:
     
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  14. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Lee, I was afraid that he might be nauseated or get diarrhea, but that was more from switching his food too rapidly. With cats, it is always a good idea to make food changes very gradually, in order not to cause G.I. upset. I also know that the KD foods, because I’ve used them before, are high in carbs, depending on which flavor you get, but most of them are all quite high carb. I thought you would see that on the first food list that I sent. I’m sorry about that.
     
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  15. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I took the case of kd food back yesterday and got refund. Then 8 went to PetSmart and got several pouches and a small box of tikicat that shows on the CKD/Diabetic list as lower phosphorus & lower carb foods for him. This evening I'll be ordering some low carb (lower carb) CKD food for Spike and using the list that was sent from the Tanya's page.

    The good news is that Spike pretty much likes ALL FOOD and 8snt a picky eater...the boy just loves to eat...lol

    He seems to be feeling better today and hasn't been sick since that night. His BG has returned to its usual levels as those carbs worked their way through him.
     
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  16. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Okay, keep us posted. Sorry again about all the food troubles. It sounds like you are on the right track. I had to stop feeding some of the Tiki Cat stuff to Darcy because of phosphorus, but it was maybe the After Dark ones... he loved the one with Quail Eggs on top... but it was too high in phosphorus ... sigh.
     
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  17. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    Hey, @Suzanne & Darcy & @FrostD , is that low sodium chicken broth in the cartons at Walmart a good treat for Spike? I'm about to head to PetCo and get some of the Waruva BFF Chicken flavors that are shown on the CKD/Diabetic food list. Those have green dots saying they meet all criteria and are .69 phosphorous. The Hill's prescriotion food was .49 phosphorous, so hopefully this Waruva BFF will be acceptable...It seems to check all the boxes percentage wise.

    The bad news is that his BG was 584 this am and I retested the same blood droplet and was "HI" ie; over 600. I've never seen it that high b4 and couldn't ascertain whether he'd gotten into some unknown contraband or what. Regardless, I'm going to do all that I can do for him for as long as it makes sense to do so.

    Hopefully, I can hear back from y'all soon as I'm about to to make the 1 hour drive to Longview Texas and the PetCo.
     
  18. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I feed my cats the BFF PLAY (pate lovers) foods because they are low in phosphorus. Some favorite flavors are Chicken Duck and Turkey take a chance and Chicken and Lamb Laugh Out Loud. They also eat figure itChicken and turkey topsy turvey and chicken checkmate.
     
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  19. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure about the low sodium chicken broth. Do you have any idea how much phosphorus is in it? I imagine it would depend upon whether they have a lot of bone broth in there since it’s mostly in the bones where the phosphorus is found.
     
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  20. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    A really good treat is Gerber’s ham baby food. All these meat baby foods are low phosphorus. I can send you a chart later. I’m running out the door but saw your message. All are under .5 phosphorus they come in chicken, ham, beef and turkey. They’re all palatable but ham is usually the favorite.
     
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  21. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Here are the Gerber Baby Foods Sitter 2nd Food ,any supermarket should have them
    • [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
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  22. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. That’s it. I hope your shopping trip was successful.
     
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  23. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I scored the BFF Chicken Checkmate and the BFF Topsfield Turvy. He didn't seem to appreciate the change last night, but this am did eat a little, so I could give him his insulin. He was at 339 bg level.

    The Waruva website has this analysis of their canned foods.https://weruva.com/nutrition-landing/bff-play-ni/
    I hope that this will be OK. I was looking at the dry matter analysis numbers. Also curious if the potassium levels are enough for Spike.

    I know that all these sudden food changes are bothering him, but like I said, he did eat a few bites this morning and I left some out for him while I'm at work. I'll pick up some ham Gerber on the way home and hopefully he will chow down on it and his new food.
     
  24. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Are they low in potassium, Lee? It’s interesting that you mention this because my cats eat a lot of it and some have low potassium. That’s not good for my cat Ginger who is on lasix for her heart disease and so she pees out a lot of potassium- just like a cat with CKD will too. My cat Marcus has neither heart disease nor CKD and his potassium was just a little low. I thirot dropped from 3.4 which is the bottom end of the reference range to 3.3 so “officially” low but just barely. I give both of these cats extra potassium via Renal K powder that you mix into their food. They don’t mind it at all.
     
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  25. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    With weruva foods
    You want the metabolizable energy profile percentage of carbs to be less than 10%, and the phosphorus which Weruva lists in Minerals to be less than 250 mg per 100 cals. So you have to look at two different places in the Weruva charts.
    https://weruva.com




    When you go to the weruva site and click on one of the pics of the food , click on Detailed Nutrition information that is under guaranteed analysis to the left
    YOU WANT CARBS UNDER 10% AND PHOSPHORUS IDEALLY LOW 200's OR LESS
    I was told this by members when I used to feed Weruva

    @Lee Renfro
     
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  26. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I THINK the BFF Chicken foods are OK, but I've read so much that I now know nothing about everything...lol

    I hope the gerber ham is low enough in carbs for him, but I see the beechnut doesn't have starch as an ingredient and although they don't have ham flavor, it mite be better on carbs.
     
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  27. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Feb 3, 2023
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  28. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    If you're worried about the 2% carbs you can try the beechnut chicken
    Beech-Nut Stage 1, Chicken & Chicken Broth Baby Food, 2.5 oz Jar ; Saturated Fat1g ; Trans Fat0g ; Cholesterol 20.00mg ; Sodium 20mg ; Total Carbohydrate 0g ...
    Lifestage: Stage 1, Infant
    Protein: 7g. Or the turkey
    Beech-Nut Stage 1 Baby Food, Turkey & Turkey Broth, 2.5 oz Jar, 10 Pack - Walmart.com
    www.walmart.com › Beech-Nut-Stage-1-...

    [​IMG]
    Rating 4.4 (123) · $11.80 · In stock
    Beech-Nut Stage 1 Baby Food, Turkey & Turkey Broth, 2.5 oz Jar, 10 Pack ; Cholesterol 30.0mg ; Sodium 40mg ; Total Carbohydrate 0g ; Dietary Fiber0g ; Sugars0g.
    Protein: 6g
    Vitamin B12: 8%


    Or the beef
    Beech-Nut Stage 1 Baby Food, Beef & Beef Broth, 2.5 oz Jar, 10 Pack - Walmart.com
    www.walmart.com › Beech-Nut-Stage-1-...


    Rating 4.3 (103) · $11.80 · In stock
    Beech-Nut Stage 1 Baby Food, Beef & Beef Broth, 2.5 oz Jar, 10 Pack ; Trans Fat0g ; Cholesterol 40.0mg ; Sodium 40mg ; Total Carbohydrate 0g ; Dietary Fiber0g.
    Protein: 8g
    Sodium: 40mg
     
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  29. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Believe me the Gerber ham is fine
    @Lee Renfro
    I added another beechnut flavor above
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2023
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  30. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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  31. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Ack! I hope you can see that, Lee. I don't think Beech Nut sells ham unfortunately. The ham is a little high in carbs, but you're not feeding a whole lot. I can't tell if the carbs are a percentage or what? Is it for a whole jar? I don't know. I usually saved the ham as the "big guns" when my cats didn't want to eat. They always ate it.
     
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  32. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    YEA!!!!♡♡ The Gerber Ham seems to have kick-started his appetite. He keeps looking at me like "why haven't you been giving me this stuff all along"?...

    Thank you.
     
  33. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Suzanne probably the whole jar I googles it and found it's 2% carbs
    Gerber ham
    ngredients Fresh Ham, Water, Cornstarch. ... Gerber 2nd Foods Ham and Gravy.
    Carbs are 2%
    Total Fat
    4g
    13%
    Potassium
    0
    20%
    Total Carbohydrate
    2g
    2%
    Protein
    8g
    55%

    Never raised Tyler's BG at all
     
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  34. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad :cat:
     
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  35. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I know! That’s why I recommended it and I call the Gerber’s Ham “The Big Guns!” They love it.
     
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  36. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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  37. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes just a little bit of it on top of some other food that you want them to eat will get them started. I hope you and all the kitties have a good weekend, Lee.
     
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  38. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    @Suzanne & Darcy , @Diane Tyler's Mom , @FrostD

    Spike never regained his appetite back after throwing up earlier this week and today has stopped eating. I got some gerbers ham into him and gave him his am shot, but he hasn't been letting me bribe him at all this afternoon. I can't give him his PM Shot because he refuses all treats etc. I'm taking him to the vet for an emergency visit 1st thing in the am, but I'm out of ideas for what to do tonite.

    He ate two little licks of the friskies chicken and tuna filets gravy that I opened for him just trying to get anything into him even if it's terrible for him. Now he won't even eat a temptations catnip treat that he's always begged for.

    Right now 7:30pm cst his BG is 368 on an empty stomach.
     
  39. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    I am hesitant to skip the PM shot...

    How is he acting otherwise? Is it possibly DKA? If so that cannot wait until morning...

    Push fluids and food as best you can. Are you able to assist feed the Gerber foods?

    I'd at least consider a small dose, perhaps 0.25U.
     
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  40. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I haven't checked his ketones but will try. He does still drink water when offered. He doesn't seem to be in distress or pain. More listless than usual. When he vomited on the 23rd after I fed him the vet k/d food, his appetite was way off and decreased until today. I attributed it to the abrupt change in diet these past few days.

    I can try to syringe feed him but I'll wear more than he eats. I also have 2 cans of hills science diet A/D Urgent Care with Chicken from another cat that was on it for a few days. But if he's turning his nose up at temptations catnip treats ITS BAD.
     
  41. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    No pain or distress, not vomiting since nite of the 23rd, had a good solid BM in the front yard when I let him lay in the sun this afternoon, no heavy breathing or signs of confusion etc....JUST STRSIGHT UP SIMPLY WONT EAT....but I'm going to get a test strip ready for when he needs to pee again. I poured water in the bowl and he got a big drink then sat here watching me.
     
  42. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I was just now able to get him to drink a tablespoon of the HSD k/d high carb junk by turning it into runny soup...seems to be the only think he would accept.

    9:30pm cst BG is now 331 and 357 from same droplet.

    Gave .30u at 9:40pm cst. I'll get a +4 hopefully.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2023
  43. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I’m worried about him. Test ketones if you can. Usually my sick cats will eat some of the A/D if they’re sick. I don’t suppose you have Forti-Flora packets to sprinkle on his food? That sometimes works. I understand that if he won’t eat temptation treats that is a bad sign. Hopefully it’s just a temporary virus. We have had that here recently and a few cats stopped eating for a couple of days. Just when they were going be taken to the vet - they started eating again. Of course they weren’t in as delicate of a state as Spike is (age, diabetic, CKD) so I could afford to wait it out as long as they drank water. I really do think you need to get him to the vet as soon as you can. Let us know how it goes in the morning. I am going to say a prayer for Spike right now.
     
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  44. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Do you have any Cerenia or Ondansetron on hand that you could give for nausea? I’m guessing no, but I am grasping at straws. It could be nausea from the BUN.
     
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  45. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    He had another teaspoon of the last of the open can of Hills k/d mixed with a lot of water. He ate one temptation catnip but wouldn't do anything but snif at the rest I offered. The vet opens at 8am and I plan on being there soon thereafter. It's my prayer that a round of sub-q fluids and maybe some mirtazapine ointment will fix him.

    I'm trying to get him to pee but he's not having it.
     
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  46. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like he may be nauseated. I was going to ask if you had any Mirataz to put on his ear. But if he is perhaps nauseated then it won’t be good to stimulate his appetite until nausea is corrected. Kind of sickening to feel hungry and yet sick to your stomach all at the same time.
     
  47. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    And it sounds like you are keeping him hydrated. Very good.
     
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  48. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    This all started when I got him the Hills from the vet. He ate 1/2 a can of it (scarf & barfed), and he just can't seem to recover from that night. He hasn't been nauseated since Monday night. Doesn't seem to b in any pain or distress of any kind....just flat out isn't eating. He'll snif everything I offer him then walk away. The friskies gravy naturally seems to interest him enuf to licks sum gravy.
     
  49. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I actually do have a tube of mirataz but it was opened in 2021 and it says to discard and do not use if opened for more than 30 days.
     
  50. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    It’s probably okay, but I would not give it unless possible nausea is addressed first. Poor Spike. I am thinking of you both this morning. Let us know what happens at the vet.
     
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  51. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    Bad news.
    BUN. 108.5
    CREATININE. 4.3
    BUN/CREAR RATIO. 25.2
    PHOSPHOROUS. 8.2

    They are teaching me how to give sub-q fluids
    They r sending us home with a bag of fluids and some anti nausea meds.
    @FrostD @Suzanne & Darcy
    @Diane Tyler's Mom
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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  52. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Oh. How sad. I was really afraid of this because he stopped eating and was sniffing food and walking away. But I was thinking…. that it wasn’t crazy high at his last appointment- not long ago. He will need the phosphate binder too. How much fluid and how often do you need to do it. I am sure that it will be daily. How much does he weigh?
     
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  53. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Is this your regular vet who Spike usually sees? Or a different one?
     
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  54. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    He lost .8 of a pound since the 21st. 8.9 lbs weight. Gave 200 MLS of fluid today and said Wednesday nite another 200 ml.zhe injected a anti nausea drug. Said to use OTC Famotadine (PEPCID) if he gets nauseated again. She said he basically fell off the cliff and doesn't expect him to make it 2 more weeks. No mention of phosphorous binder....just said to try to get him to eat. I will apply the mirataz ointment when I get home from work this evening.
     
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  55. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    200 mL is a lot of fluid for a less than 9 lb. cat. It would be better to give no more than 100 mL daily than to give 200 mL every other day. It creates a huge workload on their hearts to deal with all that fluid.

    I can’t believe they didn’t give you anything to deal with the nausea. You need Cerenia at minimum (that would have been the injection most likely but it’s only good for 24 hours tops.). And really a prescription for Ondansetron would be best. It’s the Gold Standard at controlling nausea in people and cats.
     
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  56. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I asked her about the volume and his lungs and heart workload and she said it was OK. I intuitively thought that was a lot of fluid for him at once. Can I get odansetron called in to walmart pharmacy etc???

    I even went back inside to ask her about anti nausea meds and she just said use generic pepcid. She basically didn't give him but maybe 2 weeks to live.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2023
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  57. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Yes. If they will agree, they can call in an Rx to a Walmart pharmacy
     
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  58. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I edited last post...pls re read last sentence. I was hoping for a better prognosis.
     
  59. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    1/4 of a straight pepcid ac original formula is helpful for excess stomach acid, but it’s really not going to address the nausea that is caused by the high levels of uremic toxins in his blood (BUN). I see she only gives him 2 weeks to live, but she can’t know that for sure and shouldn’t he be made more comfortable with whatever time he has left?
     
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  60. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Did they check his blood pressure?
     
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  61. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    That's what I SAID. I told her that he is Spike Renfro and I wanted him to get the best treatment and or palliative care that is capable at home where he feels safe and loved and comfortable....but it sounds like thats not what is happening, so thats why I'm listening to you instead
     
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  62. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Here is some quoted material from the felinecrf.org site that I think is appropriate right now.

    I don't know why some vets don't try to fight CKD. Perhaps they think it's not worth trying because CKD is incurable. Yes, CKD is incurable, but it can often be managed so your cat feels better. As one member of Tanya's CKD Support Group said, "vets are about the cure, we are about the care."



    So try not to worry too much about which stage your cat is in, especially since numbers can be artificially inflated at diagnosis. The stages are supposed to help the vet work out which treatments are likely to be needed, not encourage them to write off cats in the higher categories. Yes, your cat's chances may be worse if your cat is — and remains — a high numbers cat; but some cats do well despite high numbers, so try treating the cat, not the numbers and see what happens.



    Therefore, if your vet has told you there is no hope for your cat, and has recommended euthanasia, I urge you to:

    1. read this page, and also the Is There Any Hope? page to explore the various scenarios you may be facing;

    2. check out the Index of Symptoms and Treatments page to see which symptoms your cat has; and

    3. ask your vet about trying some of the Treatments that are appropriate for any of the symptoms you are seeing and any imbalances indicated by your cat's test results;
    before making the irrevocable decision to put your cat to sleep.”
     
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  63. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
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  64. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sep 21, 2018
    I'm so sorry to hear this I would call the vet back and demand a script for ondansetron , and some cerenia or find another vet and bring the copies of the labs you just had done
     
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  65. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    Mar 7, 2022
    @Suzanne & Darcy , @Diane Tyler's Mom He ate about 2.5 tbsp of the hills urgent care a/d that I have in stock here, so I gave him about .3u insulin. His PMPS was 269 & 299 from same blood droplet. I can't trust him with a fuller dose because his eating is just barely existent right now.

    The more I think about it, the more upset I'm getting that the vet didn't send me home with some Cerinia or Ordansetron.

    I'm going to apply his first dose of Mirataz now. Vet said to just wait until tonite even after I asked about it possibly taking 2 days to take effect. He hasn't seemed nauseated and there is no evidence that he has vomited since we got home from vet.
     
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  66. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Oh the Mirataz will not take two days to take effect.
     
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  67. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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  68. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Signs of nausea include:
    1. Sniffing food and walking away
    2. Sniffing at food and licking lips and then not eating / walking away
    3. Licking the surface of the food (like licking gravy off the top) and walking away
    4. Teeth grinding/chattering sounds.
     
  69. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I really agree with you. Poor Spike needs you to advocate for him, Lee. I understand what a pain this is to get vets to do what they should.
     
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  70. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    In fact, going back to the Mirataz… I think you should start with at least one half of the length of strip of the ointment that is shown on the box. That much os too much for most cats. They can become restless, meowing excessively, even aggressive toward other cats. I found that half a strip or less only given every other day usually worked without the side effects.

    You must be feeling overwhelmed and exhausted, Lee. Hang in there. I am not going to throw any more information at you tonight. I will pray for Spike!
     
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  71. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I need to go to sleep, but I will check back first thing in the morning, Lee.
     
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  72. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    No.
     
  73. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    Ok. Its updated...sorry, it's been hectic today to say the least.
     
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  74. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I hope you can get Spike to eat this morning.
     
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  75. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I can’t understand this. Also that they didn’t mention the phosphorus binder. High phosphorus is so damaging to the kidneys. Also you may start to see him having trouble walking with his back legs because the high phosphorus can interfere with nerve signals getting to his back legs.
     
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  76. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    He ate a few bites of the hills appetite food. His BG was 457 so I gave him a 1/2 unit insulin.
     
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  77. Linda and Newman

    Linda and Newman Member

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    Jan 29, 2010
    No advice here, but I have been looking in on you and Spike and certainly have you both in my thoughts. You are his buddy and you are doing a remarkable job as his caregiver!
     
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  78. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    Still haven't heard back from the vet if she's gonna prescribe me some Ondansetron and phosphorus binders that I can pick up today....so frustrating!!!

    I'm also so worried of any possible side effects that would make spike feel even worse or be detrimental to his health. I feel pretty scared actually.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2023
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  79. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Lots of CKD cats are on those medications daily. The main thing to watch out for is constipation, which is a problem with CKD cats anyway in a lot of cases. If you do nothing to alleviate his symptoms then we do know that he will be hurt by not eating and having high phosphorus.

    I know that you work long hours and it’s hard, but I really would encourage you to go onto the feline crf.org website and read there. It is a very comprehensive website, but it is broken down into sections that make it manageable to read about things that concern you. These things can be scary. I remember when Spike started the Benazepril that you did a lot of research on it. Oh, there is a fantastic support group that is associated with the felinecrf.org website. They are really nice and help a lot of people
     
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  80. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Were you able to give him the fluids tonight?
     
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  81. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    @Linda and Newman @Diane Tyler's Mom @Suzanne & Darcy
    I gave 2.5mg of fomatidine along with his benazapril tonight and tried a Friskies +15 Years Senior Stew and he ate the entire pouch. So I fed him another pouch!!! I know it's mostly gravy and probably terrible for him, but I'm just so glad the chowed down like his old hungry self.

    The Head Vet at the vet clinic (he's familiar with Spike) finally contacted me at 8pm to apologize for not getting back to me and that he'd have some Cerenia for me to pick up tomorrow. Has anyone had any adverse effects from it in a cat?...I asked for Ondansetron in my message to him, but I guess I'll take what I can get. I'm going to beg for some good and recommended phosphorous binders while I'm there tomorrow. I read that Cerenia has a longer list of possible side effects but "might" also offer some mild pain relief. I'm sure Spike could use some pain relief as I'm sure he doesn't feel well...we walked around the front yard for about 10 minutes tonight as he wanted to see the outside world for a minute then he kindly walked up the steps and waited by the front door for me...we had a good talk and walk together.
     
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  82. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I'm going to give him the fluids tomorrow and get a good definite reason why they told me give 200ml every other day when everything I find says give 100 to 150 ml daily. I don't want to cause undue strain on his heart and lungs.
     
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  83. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I've been on the site for past several days and believe me when I say that I've got plenty of questions for the vet AND the head vet tomorrow.

    Thank you all so much for all the heartfelt help and support on here. I couldn't do any of this without y'all...and Spike loves you all for everything also. I wish I could post pics of Spike on the posts but can't seem to with my note 10+ phone.
     
  84. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I think the Cerenia may help him. I always get scared when reading the long lists of possibilities. Personally, I have not seen negative side effects in my cats even when they were on Cerenia Once per day.
     
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  85. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Keep us posted. I think of you and Spike every day, several times a day. I’m proud of you, Lee, for taking this on and advocating for Spike. Your Mom would be very proud of that too.
     
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  86. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    Mar 7, 2022
    Well, the Hartz Delectable 15 Years+ Senior Stew is 2.0% Phosphorous DMB so that's out. It was the only thing I could get him to eat. I'm going to get some Friskies Lil Soups as they are .48% to .60% Phosphorous depending on flavor. I'm praying he'll chow down on those gravy soaked treats. I haven't stopped at the vets yet.
     
  87. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I understand. It is paramount that he eat. The thing is you can just add Aluminum Hydroxide powder to anything that he actually likes. It's odorless and tasteless.
     
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  88. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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  89. Lee Renfro

    Lee Renfro Member

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    I will order some today. Please send me a link to someplace that can ship me some fast.....vet didn't even know where I could order any from.
     
  90. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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  91. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    They also sell the Epakitin. But was Spike’s calcium high? Also, Niacinamide can be used to reduce phosphorus, but the first thing to try is always the AlOH powder
     
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  92. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sep 21, 2018
    Just know that the phosphate binders could cause constipation,
    If it happens you can start giving generic miralax it's much cheaper than the brand name and it's the same thing, you can start with 1/8 of a teaspoon twice a day and adjust accordingly.
    It will take a couple of days to start working, It's tasteless , you can mix it in with the wet food , add some water or you can even mix it in with the ham baby food
    CVS, Walgreen's, all supermarkets have their own brands you can use
    They will all say
    Polyethylene Glycol 3350
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2023
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  93. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Diane is right. And there are so many things that can cause constipation in a CKD cat. First just being a CKD cat because they’re chronically dehydrated and their body if very efficient at removing water from the stool. Then Zofran can be constipating, phosphate binders, to a lesser extent Cerenia can be constipating. Just try to make sure he poops every day at least a little (depending on how much he is eating). If not, it’s better to jump on it sooner rather than later because it can get so bad that enemas are required. Miralax is the first thing to try of course. But I know you have been reading over at the felinecrf site and they have very comprehensive information on constipation as you probably already have seen.
     
  94. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Oh. I see now that this is the old thread. There’s a more recent one I will bump up.
     
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