Mr Pou needs ideas on dosing

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by MrPou, Feb 22, 2017.

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  1. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Hi again all! Mr Pou asked me to write to his friends because we need advice on dosing.

    I have been doing my best to keep a routine but my schedule is all over the place. (I added the times of his BG tests to my SS).

    He is now on President's Choice chicken dinner paté - which I fond on this site to have 1.8 carbs - his feeder now gives him a 1/6 can every 3 hours and he gets a 1/2 AMPS and PMPS (so approx 2 cans a day of 156g) is this enough or too little?
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ZVTk_tYNVRaoG_3Dfy64/edit?pli=1#gid=964479244

    Also I have gone to my vet for u100 syringes and they didn't want to sell them to me. I am still using u40 and eyeballing the doses, I measured liquid coming out of the syringe to estimate what is .75 and .5 (give or take) I know this may be a contributing problem. Should I try again? Maybe another vet could sell me syringes?

    We were running low on test strips so couldn't mid-cycle test for a while but are stocked up now.

    He is between 11-12 pounds he had lost lots of weight including muscle mass which he seems to have put back on. His hip limp is much much better altough still there.

    He still gets an itchy head every week or 2 (same spot on his right side between eye and ear) which he constantly grooms or scratches until its bleeding/raw and scabs up and heals and then all over again. I have tried polysporin, hemroid cream, numbing cream.... I also wonder if these creams can play with his BG levels - so I use sparingly.

    Things I notice increase his BG: (this could be all in my head who knows - I still don't speak cat!)
    - NO FOOD in the feeder
    - Sleeping (when I wake him up for ear pricks)
    - Sun bathing

    Any dosing advice please? I am scared to go back up to 1.0 because of the very low BGs he had on 1 before. He never went hypo or had any symptoms. I have 24-26th off and could experiment in those 3 days.

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    I can't help with the dose but it's interesting that Sun bathing may effect his BG. Maury loves that! I hope it doesn't really do anything :( He's so happy when he can lay in the sun and roll around on the floor. Makes me wonder if their mood does something to raise BG. Like if the happy chemical serotonin causes them to naturally release extra glucose. Hope you get some responses, more helpful than my comments :cat:

    Also, for syringes someone posted this link: https://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/carepoint-vet-u-40-syringe-29g-half-unit_16363.htm
    I'm just ordered those and was not asked for a prescription :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
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  3. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I would get a curve on your first day off, post your results. Then we can advise better on a dose.

    The low numbers on the one unit were quite a while ago. This dance is a moving target so it may be that he needs a little higher dose again.

    You should be able to buy U100 syringes at the drug store; they are the same kind human diabetics use. Be sure to get 1/2 units syringes rather than the one unit.
     
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  4. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Yep, you can order the u100s online or from a human pharmacy. You should be able to get them fairly easily.

    I like the increases you've made recently. It looks like he might not be dropping much mid cycle...I think a curve is a good idea to see where he is going on a normal day.
     
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  5. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    His numbers are up for today, still 3 hours to go but we haven't NADIRed very low, I can up to 1 unit safely I think?
     
  6. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think increasing to one unit is a good idea. You are right - his cycle is pretty flat. I would be sure I could monitor the first cycle you raise the dose - get a +2/3 and then a nadir.
     
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  7. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    a + 2/3? Sorry what?
     
  8. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    A test 2 or 3 hours after the shot.
     
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  9. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Where online? I had sent my mom to the pharmacy and she came back with something that made no sense.... its a lot bigger and definitely not 1/2 dosed
    I checked amazon and didn't find any. I am in Canada and don't know where I can order from without any issues.

     
  10. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    If your vet has kitties on Lantus they should stock U100s with half unit marks. That's where I buy mine from.
     
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  11. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    That's what I wanted but the lady at the cash refused to sell them to me cause they aren't dosed the same... Even after I said I understood. She was new so maybe I should try again?
     
  12. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Maybe take the conversion chart in to show them? I know my vet said she doesn't normally like her clients using U100s for a U40 insulin but she trusts me to know how to do it properly.
     
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  13. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I will up the dose tomorrow, I think we both need a break from BG tests tonight! I will update tomorrow! Thank you for your help!
     
  14. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Great idea!!!!
     
  15. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Ok we are thoroughly confused. Please look at today's results.... He was chewing on everything from 3-4 asking for food, I made him wait and his BG is rising like crazy! I am now convinced he stresses out and his BG rises when he is without food. Any suggestions?
     
  16. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I noted that there is possible a BAD result, I have a machine that says "too little blood" and you can apply more, it said too little then beeped on its own and I had not applied more, so maybe it didn't have enough and read wrong?
     
  17. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I can only see REF on the US version of the template - no numbers. Maybe clean it all of and re enter them again?

    But I didn't think you could add more blood to a strip you have used. What kind of meter? Better to take a brand new test.
     
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  18. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Sorry I didn't realize it was all messed up in US - some data was not correct (since I added times to my sheet it skewed everything) Please looks at the entire data again..... :(
     
  19. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    If the data I can see is correct, those pinks look like a fast bounce from the blues.
     
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  20. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Yes it is correct now - the only thing I suspect is the +6 is a bad test
     
  21. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It could still be bouncing from the blue at +4.
     
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  22. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I will give him a break and test again PMPS, give him his shot and +2 and keep going until I fall asleep (+4 is 1 am) unless I shoot early?. Should I still give him 1.0 unit? And when?
     
  23. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I agree. He hasn't "seen" a number that low in weeks. But in general, his numbers look good. We think 250 is the number below which the pancreas heals - the renal threshold - and he is often below that. Yes, I would try one unit again. He dropped nicely but his low is not in a dangerous range.
     
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  24. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I suggest giving him 1 u at the usual shot time. The blues were nice but not that low. He might have more high numbers if he's bouncing.
     
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  25. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I'm with Kris on this one.
     
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  26. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    10-4, I will report back tomorrow! Thanks again for the help!!!
     
  27. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    238 @ 8:34am
    food
    250 @ 9:05
     
  28. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I shot just a bit less than 1 u. Like the line in the middle of the top rubber instead of rubber under the line. Let me know if this is unclear!
     
  29. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Sounds fine! Are you feeling more comfortable about figuring out the dose? You are doing well!
     
  30. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I was nervous when I saw the numbers, hopefully I made a good decision!
     
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  31. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    139 at the moment!!! He's not very hungry today either! Blue is the safe zone right?
     
  32. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    110 now
     
  33. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Staying cool in blue Mr Pou! :cool: . Going to check again at +6? Looks like his nadir is between +5 and +6 :)
     
  34. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Awesome, yes I will keep checking. He didn't eat much today so I just gave him a small treat (10 orijen kibbles - they are very small and purport to be low glycemic), he's a happy kitty.
     
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  35. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Those are lovely numbers.
     
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  36. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Very nice!
     
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  37. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    he's still blue <3
    So tomorrow I will be away from shot time to +3 or 4. Safe to keep it a a little less than unit (same as today)?

    SORRY Tomorrow is MONDAY - I miscalculated, I will be away till +6 or 7!!!
     
  38. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Also what if he's lower than this morning? Do I shoot lower if BG is lower?
     
  39. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It depends on how much lower it is.
     
  40. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I will post at 8:30 AM Eastern Canada time. Worst case scenario I can skip my pm class and catch up later. I am in Law School so there's a lot to juggle... But I feel bad I thought he was doing well all along he was not!!! Still so much to learn........!
     
  41. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    If you can't monitor and you're concerned it's always better to shoot a slightly lower dose.
     
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  42. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Maybe TOO concerned..... Why I thought less was better.
     
  43. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Happy meowning everyone! 16.2 and his hunger is back! I will give him a .9 again and update this afternoon. Have a great day!
     
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  44. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Hi all, so my mom was here and tested him throughout the day, his SS is updated, he is back to not eating much ALTHOUGH, he ate a big chunk of fat that my mom left on the counter after cooking ground beef..... So no worries about the appetite but maybe about him being picky again.
     
  45. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    He is not in the blues today....! Going back to 1 unit tonight.
     
  46. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I'd wait until tomorrow AM. It's possible that the string of yellows is bouncing from the blues. Try to get a +2 tonight.
     
  47. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    OK! I just went to Maxi to return a few cans of PC and his PC CHICKEN has been recalled! Please help, what should I buy? Is the turkey and giblet large can from Friskies safe?
     
  48. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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  49. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Friskies Chef's dinner is not there, safe?
     
  50. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I don't know. The chart is several years old. Is it a pate?
     
  51. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Yes, and what about special kitty from Walmart?
     
  52. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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  53. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I saw the info about Special Kitty too late, I will try it one day! Just bought 36 cans of Friskies Turkey and Giblets, and thankfully he likes it!
     
  54. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I feed the Chef's Dinner sometimes. It's a poultry based pate. Teasel gets a mix of prescription DM, Fancy Feast and Friskies.
     
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  55. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    So he is completely bananas over this food! My mom did the BG while I was getting home, was 15.2, he was given food at 7 (since he missed he didn't touch his food almost all day and we took it away because of the recall) and now 815pm, BG after eating was 17.5 (I was curious)...I gave him the same dose as this morning. Will test at +2 and report back.
     
  56. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    @Kris & Teasel by the way Friskies are on sale! 368g cans are 1.19$ and 156g 0.60$ at Canadian Tire, I bought mine at walmart with price match because CT didn't carry big cans of Turkey Giblet.
     
  57. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the tip! I'll check it out - LOVE Canadian Tire. :D
     
  58. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    17.4 no budge..
     
  59. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think he's bouncing from the blues yesterday. A bounce can last up to 6 cycles. Give this dose another couple of cycles.
     
  60. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    OK, we will keep this dose for the week unless anything significant happens. Thanks again for all the help and support! He will be alone tomorrow from +2 until +10 (mom will be here at +10, I won't be home till +2 pm dose) and the feeder will be going every 3hours.

    1 full 386g can/day of friskies is enough for a 12pound right? I don't have a scale and the portions are in grams...
     
  61. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    16.5, 0.9 given as usual
     
  62. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    That's a large can, right? If he's lost weight because of FD you can feed him a fair bit.
     
  63. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Yes a large can, he lost some weight as he was overweight, now hes puurrrfect :) - I will feed him a full can a day and see if he gains any.
     
  64. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Some people weigh the kitty by weighing themselves and then reweighing holding the kitty.
     
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  65. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Yes I do that every few weeks! Sometimes he's nice enough to sit on the scale too!
     
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  66. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    OK my mother didn't follow our instructions.... I will ensure she knows for next time...I'm not entirely sure what she did but probably shot an hour maybe an hour a half early and if so, the BG of 17 is an hour after a snack....If she shot then he didn't get fed till 815 (I fixed his feeder up before I left).

    He's at 10.5 now and if she shot early he's at +5 If she shot at scheduled time he's at +3.5.

    I can't complain at least I have help but this is frustrating.
     
  67. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    OK so the BG was done off schedule but the rest was done right. So 10.5 was at +3.5.
    He is at 18.0 now. Giving same dose?
     
  68. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I think you can do that.
     
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  69. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Thank you!
     
  70. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Back in the yellow this morning! His appetite is still low and he had a very stinky diarrhea poop in the middle of the night, he came to ask me to get rid of it....silly cat. Today he looks happy and well and wants lots of cuddle and giving lots of paws and purrs. I am staying home today, I am not feeling well and was put on antibiotics. I guess he's taking care of me now!
     
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  71. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I sure hope he didn't take a little with him to show you ... :eek:
     
  72. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    YES. Litter poo paws in my bed!!! YUK! I have to say this would never happen on dry food!
     
  73. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Any suggestions on changing the dosage, or should we stick to this for another week?
     
  74. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You could try 1.0 u. It's only a tiny increase but might get your PSs down a bit lower. Overall he's doing very well.
     
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  75. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Okidoki! Should I do a +6 test as well?
     
  76. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    If you could grab one, that wouldn't hurt!
     
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  77. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    We're confused..........!!!
     
  78. Pati

    Pati Member

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    Confused that you increased to 1u from .90 and his numbers are flat today?
     
  79. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Confused about what?
     
  80. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    yes!
     
  81. Pati

    Pati Member

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    I can't remember the exact quote I was taught but something along the line of "who knows". Sometimes weird things happen. Others will come along and weigh in but I would say stay 1u for a few more cycles and see what happens. If you switch the dose now you will have no clue if it was the dose change or something else such as mild bouncing. If it becomes a pattern that at 1u he stays flat and that at .90 he had better numbers then that becomes useful information. On the other hand if the next cycles improve then good.

    Was feeding exactly the same today?
     
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  82. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It could be mild bouncing from yesterday's blues. Give the 1 u at least 3 cycles.
     
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  83. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Yes everything the same, all except my mom dropped kibble on the floor and he ate 1, I swooped in and grabbed him...unless he's mad he didn't get to eat it? I don't know but I will keep at 1 unit a while and see.
     
  84. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I have never tested for Ketones cause I never had warning signs but I just ordered some from amazon.
     
  85. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It's wise to add this to your testing regimen. You won't necessarily see any signs of ketones building until they're high and kitty is very ill.
     
  86. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    It's a great day to be blue! Holding this dose for at least a week!
     
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  87. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Nice! :cat:
     
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  88. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    And he paid for the blues.... High number bounce. My mother did the routine this AM and PM, I was only here for the mid cycle test. Should we keep the 1.0 unit a little longer?
     
  89. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Are you using U100 syringes? If so, you could try 1.2 u next or eyeball 1.1 u.
     
  90. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Just bought u100s and we're ready to be accurate! I eyeballed a 1.1 this am and accidentally left his Prozinc out all day!!!! UGH....From what I've read on other posts, should be ok?

    I was not here to test so I didn't see it lying around (my mom was here to do the mid day testing) he didn't drop too low so I think he's bouncing from something. I know this sounds a little weird but is it possible that he goes too low at night and bounces in the day? Should I try a lower PM and higher AM? I'm about to shoot now....
     
  91. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's possible that he goes lower at night and bounces in the day because of it. I see that you gave 1.1 u yesterday AM but went back to 1 u last night. Was there a reason for that?
     
  92. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    I wanted to try a lower PM and higher AM to see if he responds better. He got a 1.2 this AM and I will have someone test him in nadir.
    The insulin seems to still be working, lucky me!
     
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  93. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    What to think of this +3?
     
  94. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Looks like a bounce number, maybe from a low last night. I don't think it's due to the new dose.
     
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  95. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    14.9 @ +6. I wish he had a RESET button!!
     
  96. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Still bouncing. Some bounces last a couple of days. I know this from lots of personal experience. o_O
     
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  97. ShipsCat

    ShipsCat Member

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    Don't be discouraged by what is likely a long bounce. Hermione is fond of bouncing for days too...
     
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  98. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    PMPS lower than nadir - anyone have any ideas? Is this good or bad?
     
  99. MrPou

    MrPou Member

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    Any chances the insulin has gone bad? As mentioned, I left it out close to 12hours yesterday.
     
  100. ShipsCat

    ShipsCat Member

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    Could be the insulin lasting a bit longer, could be his pancreas giving a little bump. I'm pretty sure your insulin is ok, it usually takes closer to 24hrs out of refrigeration and/or repeated multi-hour "oops" to ruin ProZinc. At worst it's a little less potent but I even doubt that.

    It's nice to have his pre-shot numbers coming down!
     
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