Help w Diabetic & CKD Food Options

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by George’s Mom, Aug 9, 2022.

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  1. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    I have been scouring the message board looking for a post with this info but am not seeing it (if it exists, please send me that direction!).

    I am trying to figure out the ideal food for my 17.5 year old diabetic (Acro) and now CKD cat. I used the “list” and found Weruva Truluxe Glam N Punk. It has 0.6% carbs (Metabolizable Energy) and 180 mg phosphorus per 100kcal. Cat likes it okay. But I noticed it is really fatty (looks like sausage to me). So I looked up the fat % and it’s 63% fat (Metabolizable Energy)!:eek: And is $2 a can for all that fat!

    So I am thinking I need to find something else. Price is not an issue for me (I’ll do anything for my Georgie Porgie). Not that I am looking for expensive. What I’m really looking for is the best food choice and I’m okay if it’s not the cheapest. What I’ve learned I need to look for:

    1) Low carb = <10% carbs (Metabolizable Energy)

    2) Kidney Friendly = <250 mg/kcal phosphorus

    3) No fish flavor??? Even if <250 phos??? He likes fish flavor…

    4) Protein should be primary and fat should be lower. Learned this from Dr Lisa whitepaper. What % max for fat?

    I’d love to leverage you smart people’s research and experience and find out what you’re feeding your kitties (if sugar cat and CKD). What are you feeding your kitties?

    Thanks so much for your help!
     
  2. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

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    there were some lists JUST posted recently hang on let me find 'em
     
  3. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

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  4. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    weruva has low carb and low phospherous wet food
    With weruva foods
    You want the metabolizable energy profile percentage of carbs to be less than 10%, and the phosphorus which Weruva lists in Minerals to be less than 250 mg per 100 cals. So you have to look at two different places in the Weruva charts.
    https://weruva.com


    For diabetic cats and cats that have elevated kidney values
    You want to feed low phosphorous wet food

    When you go to the weruva site and click on one of the pics of the food , click on Detailed Nutrition information that is under guaranteed analysis to the left
    YOU WANT CARBS UNDER 10% AND PHOSPHORUS IDEALLY LOW 200's OR LESS

    Go to this thread , there are a lot of weruva foods listed here in post #3 , post numbers are to the left
    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/kidney-disease.262271/#post-2940026

    Also
    https://www.soulisticpet.com/nutritional-information-pate
    I think you look under the same two places like in the Weruva to get the carbs and phosphorus %

    If George likes Pate here are the weruva pages
    Take a look here https://weruva.com/nutrition-landing/pates-ni/

    Try not to feed a lot of fish flavors , once a week is fine

    Try looking here I know a lot of members feed Tiki Cat also
    Look on this link. There are phosphorus levels here for all food.
    Look for 200mg phosphorus or less/100kcal
    https://catinfo.org/docs/CatFoodProteinFatCarbPhosphorusChart.pdf
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2022
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  5. Angela & Cleo

    Angela & Cleo Well-Known Member

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    The link posted by Kyle @Hendrick Cuddleclaw are a wealth of information. And that list was updated as recent as May 2022.
    What stage CKD is George? I'm tagging @Suzanne & Darcy who pops in and out of the message board quite often who is very knowledgeable about FD, ACRO and CKD.
     
  6. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Hi Rachel. I thought I just sent you the lists of foods for diabetic cats with CKD yesterday — but obviously it was somebody else. It’s the list that Kyle attached. Great list — it has the specific list for low carb foods with low/moderate pho levels. I have had good luck with the Weruva BFF PLAY foods which are low carb and low phosphorus for a non-prescription food.
     
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  7. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Well we don’t have full info yet, waiting on a few add on lab results, but his phosphorus was 6.7, creatinine was 2.6 I think. I don’t think she gave me bun. I don’t have # for hematocrit, but it was going down vet said.

    I have read much of what @Diane Tyler's Mom posted. It is a ton of good info. I was wondering if anyone had found a particular food within the list that they really liked.

    We tried Weruva Cats in Kitchen - La Isla Bonita today. It has carb ME (metabolizable energy) of 3.4%, phos 166/100 kcal, but fat makes up 46% of ME, protein ME 51%. Is that a good food? He likes it. It’s a fish protein (mackerel & shrimp).

    He also really liked Weruva Classic Mideast Feast. It has carb ME 7%, phos 202, fat ME 32%, protein 61%. But it’s a fish protein (grilled tilapia).

    I also read from Dr Lisa that liver is good for them. But I am not finding a good low carb low phos option that has liver.
     
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  8. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Yes! Someone did already (bet it was you!!!) and I did look at it. With this post, I was just trying to see what people are actually buying for CKD/DM/(and even Acro) kitties.
    What do you think @Suzanne & Darcy about giving him a fish protein? Think it’s okay if phosphorus level is low?
     
  9. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Suzanne & Darcy
    Hi Suzanne don't these numbers look high to you ?
    Also can you take a look at post #8
    Thanks Suzanne :cat:
     
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  10. Chrispooky12

    Chrispooky12 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if the BFF play weruva pate is on the list your looking at or not. I wrote down the protein carbs & phosphorus #s in a notebook.
    BFF play chicken Checkmate
    Protein 31%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 129%
    BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
    Protein 32%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 129%
    BFF play chicken cherish
    Protein 31%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 135%
    BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
    Protein 31%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 136%
    BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
    Protein 32%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 149%
    BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
    Protein 31%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 154%
    BFF play chicken & duck destiny
    Protein 32%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 165%
    BFF play chicken & beef best buds
    Protein 33%
    Carbs 5%
    Phosphorus 171%
    Don't know if your kitty likes pate but here is the list of the BFF line.
    I tried to switch my boys over to weruva but my sugar boy wasn't having it. We didn't try all of the flavors though so we may try again soon. Good luck with your kitty's.
     
  11. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    With that phosphorus being that high, I would definitely go for the low phosphorus foods. Then I would get bloods rechecked in a month to see if it has made a positive difference. Let us know when you get the rest of the blood values.
     
  12. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    When I had a consultation with Dr. Lisa a few years ago, she told me that I should not worry too much about fat. She said it was important to keep things low carb and that only leaves fat and protein. Cats need protein and she said most cats did fine on a high fat diet. I would just try new foods slowly to make sure they don’t disagree with George.
     
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  13. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    If he likes fish and it is low phosphorus then I think it’s okay but not too often. Fish are often high in mercury and other heavy metals, so I would avoid a steady diet of fish. Also, sometimes cats become fish junkies and won’t eat anything else!
     
  14. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    That's so helpful Christina Thank you
    @Chrispooky12
     
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  15. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    :bookworm::bookworm::bookworm:
    I have been reading this CKD info all night! https://felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm And more relevant for me: https://felinecrf.org/diabetes.htm#diet

    So I’ve got it wrong. Apparently fat is easier for the kidneys to process. So it’s not horrible for the food to be higher in fat (it can’t be high carb - FD; it can’t be high protein - CKD, so fat is only other energy component).

    I also read that the prescription (therapeutic) kidney foods have low protein but also the proteins they do contain have a “high biologic value” meaning they don’t produce a ton of nitrogenous wastes which are hard for the kidneys to filter out. So they’re not as crappy as I thought! Apparently they also add essential fatty acids, etc to help the kidneys function. Ulgh this stuff is so overwhelming.

    I also read that basically I want to have protein (dry matter analysis) around 28-35% for CKD. There aren’t any complete balanced foods that are that low protein unless they are prescription kidney foods.
    So..
    1. Protein: 28-35% (dry matter)
    2. Carb <10% metabolizable energy
    3. Fat is apparently okay to be a bit higher although Dr Lisa had said fat is generally cheap and is a filler.
    4. Phosphorus <200 (or 250)
    5. No fish as regular diet food. I think bc of mercury etc
    6. Low sodium is a plus
    7. Senior foods can be low protein and low phosphorus.
    8. Egg whites are a high biologic protein food apparently.
    So after all this research, the food I originally purchased (Weruva Truluxe Glam N Punk) is probably one of the better non prescription foods from Weruva. At least that is my interpretation.

    Nothing fits well. Reconsidering the overwhelming ness of making the food… or at least supplementing with some egg whites… What do you think of all of this?!?
     
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  16. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    This list is great! Just adding dry matter basis for protein (website I was reading talks about it in these terms- ideal protein dry matter basis (DMB) for CKD is 28-35% in the opinion of the author (https://felinecrf.org/which_foods.htm). Not sure what the “biologic value” of the protein is, but I guess there is only so much we can know:
    Protein is shown as ME= Metabolizable Energy and DMB = Dry Matter Basis; all Phosphorus is shown as mg/100 kcals
    • BFF play chicken Checkmate
      • Protein 31% ME (DMB 47.7%)
      • Carbs 5% ME
      • Phosphorus 129
    • BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
      • Protein 32% (DMB 48.1%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 129
    • BFF play chicken cherish
      • Protein 31% (DMB 47.1%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 135
    • BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
      • Protein 31% (DMB 47.5%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 136
    • BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
      • Protein 32% (DMB 48.5%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 149
    • BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
      • Protein 31% (DMB 47.6%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 154
    • BFF play chicken & duck destiny
      • Protein 32% (DMB 47.8%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 165
    • BFF play chicken & beef best buds
      • Protein 33% (DMB 49.3%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 171
    • Truluxe Glam n’ Punk
      • Protein 36.4% (DMB 54%)
      • Carbs 0.6%
      • Phosphorus 180
    All 3 of my kitties like pate.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  17. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    You are right. That’s was Dr. Lisa’s point about the fat. Egg white provides protein that is low phosphorus; lots of CKD pet parents use it to help prevent muscle wasting. EZ Complete premix may be a good option for you if you decide to make food - or to add homemade food into your food rotation.
     
  18. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I have been feeding Chicken Duck and Turkey Take a Chance and Chicken and Lamb Laugh Out Loud. For some reason they seem to like it better than the Chicken Checkmate and Chicken and Turkey Topsy Turvy (the addition of duck and lamb, probably.)
     
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  19. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

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    I thought about trying to make homemade cat food for a long time before finally giving it a go just a few weeks ago, using EZ-Complete and a food processor.

    So, couple things --- one: the kids love it so much!! Every single one of our six cats now goes freaking nuts when they realize I am making a batch.

    Two: It is so, SO much easier than I ever imagined it could be if you use EZ-Complete. I'm sure if I was actually grinding up organs, etc it would be a much bigger ordeal but with EZ-Complete I can whip up a batch in minutes. So far, I have at most refrigerated half a batch and fed some after making it, some later in the day. But a lot of people make a whole bunch and just freeze it, apparently.

    https://www.foodfurlife.com/ezcomplete-fur-cats-premix-information.html#/
     
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  20. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    The Truluxe Glam n punk is duck and lamb. I added to list above. My understanding from what I read is that with CKD cats, we are balancing too much protein with not enough. So either too much and they feel crummy and won’t eat or not enough and lose weight. Or not enough protein and they lose weight (muscle wasting). Basically what I understand is that as long as they’re clearing the nitrogenous wastes well, then they’re tolerating the higher protein fine. It talked about whether BUN is high as an indicator of whether they’re handling.


    She and this other site aren’t exactly on the same page. This site made me want to mix the Hills K/D with the glam n punk -partially good for kidneys (hills) and partially good for BG (glam n punk). But I think the hills is still too high in carbs for my sugar kitty and Dr Lisa thinks it’s crap (or at least that’s what I remember).
    So yes @Hendrick Cuddleclaw, maybe make my own food or add a rotation like you said @Suzanne & Darcy. Or maybe mix the canned with the supplemental ingredients (egg white Etc). I’m a little nervous about using the raw meat. Not for any reason except not knowing it’s nutritional values (phosphorus level, protein, fat, etc). I don’t know anything about the EZ complete but I am going to read about it. This stuff is so complex especially for a FD/CKD cat.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  21. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Is this the EZ Complete? https://a.co/d/4UIpnwA
     
  22. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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  23. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    I would go to the above foodfurlife site. They have LOADS of great information and recipes/discussions about how to do it. It's probably cheaper than buying it from Amazon, but I never compared.
     
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  24. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what I was just going to say. BUN would be the indicator. At some point, their BUN is just going to be high.... but how high? At that point, switching to a renal food would be the way to go.... they are not as crummy as they used to be. They can really help a lot. Sub-q fluids can help with BUN and make the cat feel a whole lot better. They're not low carb but insulin can be adjusted. When you get to that point, the pros of the Rx renal foods usually outweigh the cons.

    Battling dehydration is very important. The body is very efficient at drawing all of the moisture out of the stool to be used by the body when the cat gets dehydrated -- this can leave dry rocks in the colon that are difficult to move.
     
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  25. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    EZ Complete is low phosphorus because they do not use bone in there. They use eggshell calcium. I don't know the phosphorus off the top of my head, but check their website that I linked above. I know you will find it since you are a great researcher.:bookworm:
     
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  26. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

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    from what I was reading today it is not quite as low phos as I would like, somewhere around .8% but that is still worlds better than all the FF we were feeding these past months.
     
  27. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Haha! On Amazon, it showed combined with certain foods and all showed <1%. I’m not 100% that I’m reading that correctly, but sounds like it is super low. Just need to confirm the actual raw meat doesn’t add more phosphorus. I’m sure I can find that out there somewhere. If anyone knows where to find phosphorus levels in various raw foods, let me know!
    I have subQ fluids from my other two CKD kitties. Guess we should start giving to Georgie Porgie too. He’s a big cat (long and generally strong) so he’s gonna be a pain in the ( )( ) to give sub Qs. But yes, this settles that question in my mind. Start George on subQs. Check.
     
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  28. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Ewww… you’re right. .8 is high for CKD. This says .3-.6 is ideal dry matter range: https://felinecrf.org/phosphorus.htm
     
  29. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

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    yep, would prefer under .5

    but, it is not what we are feeding exclusively, and when combined with other lower phos foods her overall diet is certainly closer to .5%

    {edit} and I should also mention we have no CKD kitties. We have one 14-year-old kitty with some lab work that shows she could have CKD in her future so we are reducing phos intake across the board for all the older kitties anyway.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
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  30. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    What else are you feeding? Do tell!!! :)
    Also, what kind of meat are you using?
     
  31. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Think I can just cook some eggs whites and feed them to him as a snack? Is that okay to do?
     
  32. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Yes. It’s never going to get as low phosphorus as a renal diet either, but it is an improvement over many other foods, as you say.
     
  33. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

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    Weruva Truluxe Glam n Punk and Steak Frites are on the menu

    So far, for the homemade I have used only chicken breast. Doing some reading today I found on the EZ-Complete website they actually don't mention that meat so maybe I should be using something else like turkey breast, turkey thighs, or pork loin. I just saw the label said use whatever meat you want so went with something easy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2022
  34. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Ahhh! So we are on the same page! I probably would’ve gone for chicken too. I wonder if there is a resource to show the phosphorus % (dry matter) of the various meats. Hmmm
     
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  35. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Why is there no commercial FD/CDK diet out there? I would think there would be a substantial % of cats needing this. Crazy!
     
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  36. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    If you start searching, there's a lot out there about different meats and their phosphorus levels -- it's usually for humans with kidney disease, but it would still tell you which meats are lowest in phosphorus.) Just remember that you can always use phosphorus binders when the time comes. Getting George to eat/keeping him eating is the most important thing.
     
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  37. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Yes. This is okay. It's cooked egg white that they need, to deactivate the Avidin in the egg white, so that it won't interfere with the absorption of B-vitamins in the cat. I think this would be fine.
     
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  38. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    I’m confused by what you said here. The Avidin is in the egg white? So cooking it deactivates it?
     
  39. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Cooking it deactivates the Avidin
     
  40. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Copied from Tanya’s site:
    Egg White Cautions

    Although egg whites are nutritious with minimal waste production, they do not have many calories, so you do not want them to make up too high a percentage of your cat's daily food intake. One to two egg whites each day might be appropriate, if your vet agrees, as long as your cat also eats a complete cat food.



    Eggs may inhibit iron absorption. Prediction of dietary iron absorption: an algorithm for calculating absorption and bioavailability of dietary iron(2000) Hallber L& Hulthén L American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 71(5) pp1147-60 found that eating eggs reduced iron absorption by around 27%. This applies more to the yolk than to the white but be careful if your cat is anaemic.
     
  41. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Anyway I don’t think you were getting ready to feed raw egg white. All I am saying if cooked egg white is the way to go. Or if you buy a powdered product then make sure it was cooked or you cook it first.
     
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  42. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Geezo. Everything in moderation they say. His brother OJ died from Anemic CKD, so I know how important it is to keep their iron up. Sounds like a lil treat of it here and there, maybe much like fish. I actually asked Food Fur Life about the phosphorus content in the EZ Complete food and got the following response:


    “As to the target phosphorus, current research indicates there is a problem with the super low phosphorus "veterinary diet" foods. AAFCO minimum is 0.5% and the "low" phosphorus foods are causing hypercalcemia, which may be contributing to the calcification of tissues / organs in our CKD cats.

    In the research that separated the impact of phosphorus from the impact of protein in cats (when I do research, I go to the original, published research), the low phosphorus food was 0.97% on a dry matter basis: 1%. I've had five CKD cats over the years, and all have been stable on food made with EZC. Even with the low phos foods, many cats need a binder. If / when my cats do, I use vitamin B3 (niacinamide). Their liver values need to be tracked, but at the typical 50 - 75mg 1x or 2x per day to keep blood phos levels in the low-4s, to date, we're not aware of that having been a problem in cats. But my cats have all been stable from 2 to 4 years and all passed from something else, not kidney failure.

    Best to use meats with fat content of at most 7% or 8% (or a combination that average out to that) - and that is AS FED (so you can use the nutritional labels if they have it to calculate fat. Bear in mind, the % on the label is percent of human RDA. To find the fat content, you need to take the grams of fat (total) and divided it into the serving (total grams). In the end, cats need more protein as they age, not less (also newer information than is discussed in most articles, even though the research was published by Univ of IL professors, peer reviewed AND dates back to 2013). Change takes time with new info....

    Best wishes while you navigate how you want to manage this! There's a lot of conflicting info out there. In the end, my cats like the lean meats, and when they're diagnosed with a terminal illness, enjoying their meals and days - their quality of life - is far more important to me. Not everyone takes that approach. That is a personal decision we all have to manage for ourselves!

    Best Regards,

    Laurie

    Laurie D
    Food Fur Life, LLC
    www.foodfurlife.com
     
  43. FarmKitty

    FarmKitty Member

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    Hey, just thought I would pipe in with what has been working for Dixie (DM + CKD). I live in Canada, so things are a bit limited here. The lowest phosphorus (+ low carb) food I could find was Weruva's Steak Frites, which with that 0.57% phosphorus level seemed amazing. Unfortunately, it was too good to be true and it actually ended up raising Dixie's BG levels from the blues to the yellow range. Perhaps it was a food allergy or something, and others on the forum have also mentioned having some difficultly with it. But I would recommend starting with that one because it would be great if it works. Dixie went from gobbling it up to barely touching it after a few days as well.

    Another one I tried is Weruva's B.F.F. Play Pate Chicken Checkmate. This one is 0.71% phosphorus. She likes this one as well, but it was hard to find it during the pandemic.

    I currently use Weruva's Goody Stew Shoes (and sometimes Weruva's Stew's Clues but she doesn't like it as much). These ones are also 0.71% phosphorus, but slightly more carbs than the Chicken Checkmate. Dixie prefers this one, perhaps because it is basically a big gravy, unlike the Chicken Checkmate which is shredded chicken pieces.

    With Weruva's Goody Stew Shoes and Phos-Bind medication, her phosphorus levels went from 2.12 mmol/L down to 1.59 mmol/L (normal range is 1.03 - 2.1 mmol/L, Dixie's labs are attached to the spreadsheet if you are interested), so the vet is satisfied about that. The vet's nutritionist was pushing for one of the prescription diets, but the carbs were so high so I wanted to try finding a food on my own and I'm satisfied with the results.

    A big reason I went with Weruva is that they actually have all the nutrition listed out on their site. It was a pain trying to figure out the nutrition on other cat food sites. Weruva has quite a few foods that are in that 0.71-0.73 phosphorus range as well as being low carb, so there are quite a few flavours to choose from. I am looking forward to their new CKD food coming out!

    I hope you can find something that works for George.
     
  44. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

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    Jun 25, 2022
    Adding these foods! This is exactly what I was hoping to see. There are some choices on here that I have overlooked because I was first focused on the carbs. However, all are under 10% carb and have better phosphorus values. Thanks @FarmKitty!

    Protein is shown as ME= Metabolizable Energy and DMB = Dry Matter Basis; all Phosphorus is shown as mg/100 kcals and DMB in ( )
    • BFF play chicken Checkmate
      • Protein 31% ME (DMB 47.7%)
      • Carbs 5% ME
      • Phosphorus 129 (DMB 0.71%)
    • BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
      • Protein 32% (DMB 48.1%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 129 (DMB 0.71%)
    • BFF play chicken cherish
      • Protein 31% (DMB 47.1%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 135 (DMB 0.71%)
    • BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
      • Protein 31% (DMB 47.5%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 136 (DMB 0.71%)
    • BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
      • Protein 32% (DMB 48.5%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 149 (DMB 0.81%)
    • BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
      • Protein 31% (DMB 47.6%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 154 (DMB 0.82%)
    • BFF play chicken & duck destiny
      • Protein 32% (DMB 47.8%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 165 (DMB 0.87%)
    • BFF play chicken & beef best buds
      • Protein 33% (DMB 49.3%)
      • Carbs 5%
      • Phosphorus 171 (DMB 0.91%)
    • Truluxe Glam n’ Punk (lamb & duck)
      • Protein 36.4% (DMB 54%)
      • Carbs 0.6%
      • Phosphorus 180 (DMB 0.93%)
    • Truluxe Steak Fritas (beef & pumpkin)
      • Protein 45.2% (DMB 61.9%)
      • Carbs 5.5%
      • Phosphorus 118 (DMB 0.57%)
    • Goody Stew Shoes (Chicken & Salmon)
      • Protein 28.3% (DMB 43.2%)
      • Carbs 8.5%
      • Phosphorus 132 (DMB 0.71%)
    • Stew's Clues (Turkey, Chicken, & Salmon)
      • Protein 29.9% (DMB 44.6%)
      • Carbs 9.4%
      • Phosphorus 137 (DMB 0.71%)
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2022
  45. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2022
    This is awesome that they’re coming out with a low option, even if it’s not a “complete” food. It will br great to have more low phos options. Agree that Weruva is great in being transparent and therefore has my attention focused squarely on them (vs other cat foods at the moment). Plus everyone seems to be using them likely for same reason.

    @Suzanne & Darcy I noticed in this post that you mentioned not giving phosphorus binder unless >6 phos level. George is 6.7 but my other two kitties are eating same food - both are CKD but I don’t know phos levels. I can get them as we’ve just recently done labs. Neither is diabetic.

    Anyway, is there a downside to giving phos binder if level isn’t >6? Say 4.5 for example. I did read about Hypophosphatemia. Is that the concern? Tanya’s website phosphorus page, she seems to recommend getting phos levels between 3.0 and 4.0. She does mention phos binders if >6.0. I guess I’m just trying to figure out if it’s bad to give if they are less than 6.0? Guessing it’s okay unless they are 4.0 now and could drop below 3.0. Am I on the right track here? So I just need to watch it going too low in other two kitties?
     
  46. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    About the Steak Frites and the BG, a lot pf people report that beef tends to raise their cat’s BG. Every cat is different though so it’s definitely worth trying. It has a pretty good nutritional profile, but some say their cats won’t eat it.
     
  47. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Yes, you just don’t want the phosphorus level to drop too low. This did happen with my cat and I had to back off the phosphorus binder a bit. His phosphorus level had been so high that he was even having trouble walking and jumping (hind leg weakness due to the phosphorus interfering with nerve signals to the back legs.)
     
  48. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2022
    George twitches and I haven’t gotten any answers regarding (even took him to a neurologist). Has had hind leg weakness too. Always just assumed it was neuropathy from high BG (prob was) but interesting to think it could also be his phosphorus levels contributing to it.

    I’m going to get all of the kitties’ blood work and go from there.
     
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  49. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    It says a lot about the Company that she replied like that. Very interesting. I would like to hear Dr. Lisa Pierson’s take on that. I know she’s not a fan of ultra low protein. Hmmm…
     
  50. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2022
    whoa, I totally missed that reply from EZ complete!

    Interesting about the meat choice because I have been using chicken breast, so far, except one time where I used Turkey breast. I have no idea of the fat content but I imagine it is very low right. Chicken breast is high protein and very lean, far as I know.

    Google says chicken breast is typically 20% fat. That seems high to me.
     
  51. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Does that include skin? No way it’s 20 percent fat.
     
  52. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2022
    agreed. For mixing with EZ Complete I am wondering though, if chicken breast is not a good option and I should be using something else? Their website lists several meats but not chicken breast.

    Thoughts? Dr. Pierson only uses rabbit or chicken thighs but if you go by what EZ Complete said in their email above, I think chicken thighs would be higher than 8% fat.
     
  53. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2022
    I would think chicken breast would be one of the leaner meats. I know I think of chicken breast as fairly lean from a human perspective. Also, cats generally like chicken. I personally hate Turkey (always eat ham at thanksgiving instead :p) because it’s so bland. So idk if I’d be so quick to change it if it’s working. But I know nothing so you may want to ignore me :D

    As far as Lauren D (Food Fur Life) , a few things:
    1) I can understand that cats need more protein because they process less as they age per some of my Tanya reading. Higher protein would help prevent muscle wasting. However, CKD cats struggle with the higher protein because of inability of their kidneys to process all of the nitrogenous wastes.

    3) Other things I have read (all either Dr Lisa or Tanya so maybe I read that in Tanya’s site) say that higher fat is okay, that it’s easier for CKD cats to process. I know Dr Lisa thought fat was just a cheap thing to put in the food, but I don’t recall her saying it is really bad for them either.

    3) Who exactly is Lauren D anyway?!? I don’t see anything on their website saying her expertise. I know she says she has multiple cats and all that, but I am just a little skeptical as to whether she’s got the expertise to actually be giving this type of advice. Maybe she does! But what if she’s just a random customer service chick feeling authoritative to give an answer like this. Just sayin’ maybe we should take that with a grain of salt?

    Also take what I am sayin’ with a grain of salt too! :smuggrin:
     
  54. Hendrick Cuddleclaw

    Hendrick Cuddleclaw Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2022
    Lauren D's answers feel like she is possibly an owner/founder type person. To me
     
  55. FarmKitty

    FarmKitty Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2020
    Foods_Sorted_By_Phosphorus.PNG

    Here is a chart I made last year when I was searching for low phosphorus foods. I didn't try them all, but perhaps this has a couple that are missing from Dr. Lisa's big food chart that could be of use for you. I believe I included the Sodium and Potassium columns because Tanya's CKD site mentions something about them... but I can't remember the specifics (lower sodium?). Double-check the nutrition values in case I calculated something wrong.

    Definitely got some analysis paralysis picking out food when Dixie was diagnosed with CKD... It was hard enough as it is to get low-carb food, but then adding in the low-phosphorus requirement is even trickier. The Royal Canin food at the top of the list was what the vet's nutritionist was recommending, but you can see that the carbs were 14% so that is why I looked for an alternative.

    Just as some reassurance for you, my vet said that if I can't get Dixie to eat these foods then it is fine to keep her on the Friskies and just use a phosphorus binder, and that the important thing is to get her to eat something. The vet's advice combined with what people on here usually say about just aiming for <1% phosphorus allowed me to just pick a food and go with it. I wish cat food companies would bring out more food that we actually want instead of whatever cheddar cheese gravy feast they keep selling hahaha.

    Edit: Also sign up and check out Tanya's CKD Support Forum if you haven't already!
     
  56. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2022
    I actually love this chart! I need to spend some time looking at it, but I can tell you’ve got some excel skills with the conditional formatting. I’m an excel nerd, so just wanted to compliment you on your sheet. :bookworm:

    Analysis paralysis for SURE! I have spent hours looking at this and still no clear answers. At least I’ve got good direction though.

    George is still having diarrhea. I wonder if the high fat Glam n Punk isn’t agreeing with him… I was trying to hold him steady for a bit to see if the food change was the culprit. :facepalm:
     
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  57. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2022
    Take a Chance was a hit!!! Thank you!
     
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  58. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    @Jodey&Eddie&Blue I want to tag you on this post. It’s quite long, but we have been discussing food for diabetic cats with CKD here. I wanted to include you in it - when you get a chance.
     
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  59. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    I am very happy about this!
     
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  60. Jodey&Eddie&Blue

    Jodey&Eddie&Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2021
    Thank you!! I was just thinking about food options and was considering a raw diet with EZComplete but then I just saw a post in another forum (which one??? I can't find it again) by someone whose cat contracted Toxoplasmosis (parasite Toxoplasma gondii (T. gondii) quite possibly by feeding a raw chicken diet.
    If it's not one thing, it's another. But thank you for this thread. I'll make my way through...
     
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  61. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Oh no. I will have to find that thread about toxoplasmosis. I have two cats with FIV so there’s no way I would feed them raw food because it could be deadly if they got food borne illness. Two years ago my cat Marcus caught an upper respiratory infection and it literally took him three months to get better. I know some people cook their meat with the EZ complete.
     
  62. Jodey&Eddie&Blue

    Jodey&Eddie&Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2021
    I didn't see it on here but somewhere out there in the entangled internet while doing some food research. How much cooking of ground chicken does it take, do you know?
     
  63. Virginie & Chewie (GA)

    Virginie & Chewie (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2022
    CDC recommends cooking meat to 145F (63C) to kill toxoplasmosis - not sure what that looks like in cooking ground chicken but should be easy to test with one of those poke-in meat thermometers? I have been feeding commercial (veggie free) raw for years but also thinking of giving homemade cooked a chance as kitties get older (15-16).
     
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  64. Jodey&Eddie&Blue

    Jodey&Eddie&Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2021
    Hi Virginie, thanks for this!! But what commercial (veggie free) raw are you using? That sounds like something I'd really appreciate. I have to confess: I'm vegan (!) so raw or cooked, meat is a challenge (for me, not them!!!).
     
  65. Virginie & Chewie (GA)

    Virginie & Chewie (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2022
    Ugh, I hear you, I was a vegetarian for 20 years (chronic health issues forced me to start eating meat again once or twice a week, but it still grosses me out), and for me raw meat is for cats, not people haha.
    I’m currently feeding Darwin’s Natural turkey, which comes in plastic pouches and is delivered to your door (minimum order is 20lb I think, so it takes over your freezer). Very cost-efficient compared to others, but also heavy on bone, so I have to complete with other brands and with raw organ meat whenever I can (chicken or turkey hearts, organic liver).
    I also really like Wild Coast Raw (may or may not be locally limited to PNW) and Lotus. Both brands have psyllium husks but Lotus also has the advantage of using eggshell instead of bone for calcium, which makes it easier on older kitties and kitties prone to constipation.
    Of course my stubborn jerks will only eat Darwin’s reliably, but I am able to include a meal every day from one of those other brands, to try and balance it out a bit.
     
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  66. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    @AbbottTheCat do you know the answer to this question?
     
  67. Jodey&Eddie&Blue

    Jodey&Eddie&Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2021
    I bit the biscuit, so to speak, and made a small batch of raw chicken with EZComplete and put it in the freezer (I got these little silicone trays for easy popout). I've run out of Wervua but have some ordered. I have to to with Wervua for Blue because it's low phosphorus (mindful of kidney values) whereas Eddie is ok in that regard. I feel like I'm running a 5* resort/spa for cats who order individual meals and personal care with an ECID card.

    I got the ground chicken from the whole foods store so it's human grade, which I guess is a bonus? But I've cleaned the preparation area like it's a biohazard (I didn't wear a Hazmat suit, though, LOL).

    I'm going to go through this long thread and what I can glean. Hoping the Weruva arrives soon!!
     
  68. Jodey&Eddie&Blue

    Jodey&Eddie&Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2021
    I read through the EZComplete website and take their point about cooking meat & so I did a small batch of EZComplete and human grade, raw, ground chicken.
     
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  69. Jodey&Eddie&Blue

    Jodey&Eddie&Blue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2021
    Thank you so much for this chart!! And, for the term "analysis paralysis"! With two cats (DM/acromegaly) and one of them early CKD, I've been dancing as fast as I can, which means trying to absorb, remember, record, compare, implement, all of which lead to a moment of paralysis to be sure. Trying to go with Weruva and it's dizzying with how many varieties there are and trying to locate them becoming quest-worthy...I've now ordered Weruva from Amazon but heard about https://www.identitypet.com/collections/shop-cat/products/95-free-range-cobb-chicken-wet-cat-food that appears to fit the bill.
     
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  70. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Here’s my Diabetic CKD food list: https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/CKD Diabetes Food List.pdf
     
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  71. AbbottTheCat

    AbbottTheCat Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2022
    While I don't think it's harmful to feed raw chicken I would be more cautious about ground meats. In this form the meat is more open to bacteria both when packaged at the plant and when preparing at home. For this reason I would cook any ground meats to well or well done, say at least 150 (It will cook an additional 5 or 10 degrees sitting out of the oven) for ground chicken.
    I cook my ground turkey to about 150 degrees. Remember when cooking to retain the juices from cooking.
     
  72. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2022
    I personally have settled with Weruva wet food for now. But since I asked questions about EZ Complete to the fur for life folks and got answers, I thought I should share. I didn’t want to make this thread any longer, so see post here.
     
  73. Scott & Elmsley

    Scott & Elmsley Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2022
    I am a bit late to the party, however I recently went through switching to something more kidney friendly as well (I ended up going with the PLAY from Weruva). I downloaded the datasheets for most of the Weruva brands (Fancy Feast is in there too, I got FF from one of the other threads on this forum), as well as there are some acceptable Soulistic foods. They break it down on DMB as well; I find that easier to use, only because I am used to using it over on Tanya's CKD group on previous cats, and Helen lists everything dry matter.

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1002_L410c3cPqXp7gfEXH3BNsssYXSn3?usp=sharing
     
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  74. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Me too. Have switched cats over to Weruva BFF PLAY.
     
  75. George’s Mom

    George’s Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2022
    Yep! @Suzanne & Darcy , you suggested it to me and all 3 of mine are digging it. TY TY for the suggestion!
     
  76. Oscar&Junior&Mommy

    Oscar&Junior&Mommy New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2020
    My Diabetic, CKD and pancreatitis boy doesn't do well with raw. I find cooking works better for him. Right now i am using EZcomplete but i want to transition to a diet just using vitamins. I'm going to use eggshells, liver and egg yolks. I'm just not sure how many vitamins to put in the food per pound. If anyone has a recipe for 1 or 2 pounds of meat with vitamins. Thank You
     
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