Diagnosed 3/26/12

Hi,

My name is Patti and I'm new here. I have 2 male tabby cats about 13 years old and a 4 year old female Ragdoll.

The past two weeks I've been smelling a strong odor from the litter box and I change it completely out weekly. I caught my male cat, Bubba, urinating on some clothing and then my shoes!!! I figured it was a UTI but the Vet told me he has sugar in his Urine and the Vet Tech told me he has Ketones and she said it's basically the same thing. I found out it's not! So, he's diabetic and the Vet sent me home with a prescription dry food and insulin.

I have to note that I don't make a lot of money so I called local pet stores, contacted the Humane Society and applied on-line to various non-profit places. One non-profit contacted me back and said they don't have funds. I can't afford vet bills or insulin dur to my home situation and so I scheduled his euthanasia for 3/30 but thanks to this lovely place I will cancel that appointment. I'm thankful and grateful to be getting supplies to assist my Bubba. My 5 and 7 year old don't have to deal with his death just yet. He didn't eat much this morning so I'm worried about his condition knowing they found Ketones.

I'm not sure how to do home monitoring and I've given injections in the scruff before so that shouldn't be a big deal.
I'd like suggestions as to the cheapest place to get needles. He's currently prescribed 1 unit 2x a day.
I received advise to get him on wet food and to return the prescribed dry food that would cost me $20 a month.

I'll navagate my way around and find more information. Please comment or offer advice if you'd like.

 

Hi Patti!
How wonderful you found your way here!! WELCOME
There are a lot of very friendly helpful folks here. I am also new here but not new to having a diabeic cat.
The cheapest I have found syringes for insulin is at either Walgreen's or Walmart. Both carry thier own brand. They are about half the cost of the name brands and have the same quality. I currently pay about $16 a box of 100 for the Walgreen's Ultra Thin II.
What kind of insulin was Bubba started with? The cost will vary depnding on the type and dosage.
I am sure that the more learned members will be more than helpful when it comes to finding the best price on that and testing supplies for you.
Keep your chin up,
Hugz,
Carol

 

Hi Patti & Budda to the FDMB Family.

FIrst off what insulin did your vet prescribe for Budda?

I, personally have two diabetic kitties that I adopted as diabetics because they were scheduled to be put to sleep. So please cancel that appointment with your vet, because I can tell you I have two great cats that just needed a little tweaking to their diet and a couple of shots a day, otherwise you wouldn't know them from any of my other 14 cats...yeah you read that right I have 16 cats! lol Well okay two are 6 week old kittens and you might be able to tell my diabetics from them. :lol: Serioudly if this was tough to do I wouldn't have taken on TWO diabetics, especially since I am also a full time college student, a wife, mother and grandmother and we live on my husband's single income as a roofer.

When it comes to getting Budda on a canned diet that is also budget friendly we have lots of choices for you...btw, all of mine eat exactly what my diabetics do. Some of the cheaper choices if you would like to switch the whole furry family would be Friskies pate style, 9-Lives Pate style, or even Walmart's Special Kitty, the nice thing about the Friskies and the Special Kitty is that you can usually find it in the larger 13 oz cans.

The webmistress of this site offers free newbie kits which will give you everything you need to start testing Budda at home, not only will this keep him safe while he is on insulin it will also give you truer numbers as well as keep a lot more $$ in your wallet. The only time my two have seen the vet's after they were diagnoised has been for routine vet care (shots, ear infections, dentals etc) everything concerning their diabetes I can handle at home with the testing and the help from the wonderful folks here.

Others will be along shortly to explain this more in depth but I was just running out the door but wanted to at least touch on some of the high points and welcome you to the boards.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Tips on how to manage a daibetic cat on a budget: http://binkyspage.tripod.com/frugal.html

You maybe able to get some assistance from Diabetic Cats In Need. Here is the info http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29083

An inexpensive canned food is much better for your cat than the exensive (and worthless in the opinion of many here) prescription food. Not all canned foods are low enough in carbs for a diabetic cat, though. Here's a list of low carb gluten free Fancy Feast that you can start with: http://www.felinediabetes.com/glutenfree.htm

There are other brands you can feed, including other big name inexpensive brands of food (Friskies, Special Kitty, 9 Lives, etc). See http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12846, and Binky's canned food charts, and the Pet Food Nutritional Values chart. On Binky's chart, look at the column for carbs and choose foods that have a number 10 or less. On the Pet Food Nutritional Values chart, look at the % Kcal from carbs column and choose foods with a number 10 or less.

You mention that the vet found ketones. The presence of ketones is not good in a diabetic cat. It can quickly turn into a serious condition called diabetic ketoacidosis. Here is info: http://www.felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm A diabetic cat ideally should receive immediate vet treatment for ketones.

 

Hi,

They prescribed him Glargine a.k.a. Lantus from what I found out

He has a trace amount of Ketones in his urine they said and thought that with the prescription food and insulin he was treatable at home

I purchased 9-lives this evening and he ate a tiny bit. The doctor told me that if he doesn't eat then I'd have to bring him in for fluids and I can't afford that so I just hope he will eat a tiny bit tomorrow morning and night before the insulin I give for the first time. They said don't give insulin unless he's eaten.

Does it matter how much he eats before insulin?
The can of 9-lives, do I give 1/2 in am and 1/2 in pm which will finish the can?
Anybody know where there is funding where the insulin and maybe other supplies or expenses can be covered? I don't mean to seem like a free loader but I have more going out than coming in as far as my income and if I can't get things covered then Bubba will have to be put down. He's too old for me to want to put him through rehoming. So, although there are low cost websites, which is great, I don't have that extra money each month

 

Where in MN? We have some in that state that might be close to you. As for too old, a lot of cats are dx'd at 13 and go on to live many good years. My Baby(GA) was dx'd at 13 and lived another great 5 1/2 years.

 

I'm near Woodbury and Eagan in the Twin Cities area.

 

i know some long time members in your neck of the woods and sent them messages in case they have any local help or info for you

 

Welcome to FDMB Patti & Bubba !

I have some lantus and short needles that I can send you. As far as ketones you need the check for them with ketostix (can be found at any drug store or walmart) at home every day- even the slightest trace can lead to dka. I've had both my diabetics survive dka but it is very costly and serious. Another suggestion is to add water to the low carb wet cat food. Cats with even trace amounts of ketones need extra water to flush them out. I've sent you a pm here to get your address.

Sherry

 

I see some coupons over here: viewforum.php?f=15

Diabetes is not necessarily a death sentence. Just lost my kitty to cancer after three years off insulin. Sometimes they only need to be on it a short time. Hoping that is the case with your Bubba. Sending ((hugs)) to both of you. cat_pet_icon

 

Hi Pattie,
I am pretty close to you. I would be happy to come over and teach you how to home test and check for ketones in the next few days. I *may* have a few supplies for you, but not much at this point. Enough to get started possibly, and give you more hope!

I can write more in the a.m.....it's late! Just wanted to let you know someone nearby is out there watching out for you.

ETA: In the meantime, would it be possible for you to call the vet and get any copies of labwork they ran? You could pick them up, have them fax or email to you.

 

Ok- one more thing... ask your vet to sell you ONE bag of fluids, and an IV line (this may cost up to $20 or so, unfortunately...but cheaper if they administer it). I have plenty of needles. Also ask him for a prescription for fluids. We will find a way to get those for you, but need the prescription. You will also need to get some ketostix from a local pharmacy. I think those cost around $10. It sounds like you may need both the fluids and ketone sticks ASAP. If there is any way to get those, it could be a life saver (and certainly would cost less than putting your kitty to sleep!).

I have a few testing strips for one meter that I think are still ok. I will do a little digging to see if we cannot find a bunch more for my relion meter.

Let's touch base tomorrow! Hang in there!!!

 

Hi Patti I live West of Chanhassen. Not close but not that far. I want to welcome you our FDMB family. You have found a spot where help is almost always available. Carolyn and Latte are very knowlegable and are closer to help you. I'll pm (Private Message) you and give you my phone number also.

Please know that my Charlie Bear was DX at age12 and died of a stroke just before turning 19 (about 2 1/2 years ago).... he remained on insulin those years, but played and loved and even doctored me when I needed hot water bottle kitties after a surgery. My second diabetic arrived (We adopted him knowing he had diabetes) His peeps decided to put this three year old beauty to sleep rather than treat him. We picked him up down in St. James and brought him home. I tested his BG it was 587 (don't know why that number won't let go of my brain). Gave him two units of insulin... Next morning (12 hours later) he was at 90... skipped morning dose and we gave him 1 unit that night on a 350 reading and skipped the next morning... we went on and off like that for a total of nine days.... on the 10th day... he was in normal range and remains there to this day.. he is completelly diet controlled on FF/9-Lives....etc.

I suggest you take the dry food back and go buy low Carb varieties of Fancy Feast. Look on our home page for Janet and Binky's list of the majority of canned cat foods and she has done so much research to have the nutrients, calories and carb levels of all .

Well here's to talking to you treating this beautiful boy Bubba. We will need to see pictures of him... Forgive him the inappropriate urination spots... Charlie tried to tell me something was wrong and he picked my brand new ultra suade sofa.... But that's a whole new story. Welcome again Patti.

 

Patti,

Another place to try is DCIN (Diabetic Cats in Need) their website is here http://fdmb-cin.blogspot.com/ they have a financial aid program there that can help with things like testing supplies, and insulin as well as if it comes down to it rehoming.

Both of my diabetics are DCIN adoptions and they still help me finacially with Musette.

But 12 is NOT OLD! Maxwell is 13 and runs, jumps and plays with my kittens and younger cats no one has told him that he is old...lol Musette is barely a year younger and she acts exactly like my younger cats as well...Neither of them would tell you that they are old or that they are sick, as far as they are concerned they are just cats that have a family that loves them. Now Musette doesn't play much but it isn't because she is either old or diabetic, it is because as far as I can tell never been exposed to toys before. She is learning now and have found a few favorites, but otherwise she is no different than any of my younger cats.

Diabetes should no be a death sentence, and I know if it had been for my two the world would have lost two beautiful, loving and funny cats and my family would have lost the chance to share our lives with this amazing pair.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

HI Patti, here are a couple of suggestions on the Lantus insulin. One is check Craigslist - sometimes people buy insulin and never use it - I've seen listings where people have unopened bottles for sale. The other is to buy Lantus from Canadian Pharmacies online. You can get a vial of lantus for $68 or the pens (which are a better value) for $95. If you live anywhere near the border you could drive to canada to get insulin because you can purchase it without a prescription. Canada negotiates drug prices with the pharmaceutical companies so the prices there are much more reasonable. I live in Oregon and will definitely be hitting a pharmacy for insulin on my next trip to BC. Jan

 

Hi,

I've been freaking out a bit. I'm getting a box from here today. I got the impression it was a starter box for some reason and I'd be on my own afterwards. I have the support here that I've been needing to make this work and to keep Bubba alive. Thank you all.

 

((Patti)) no reason to freak out at all after you find fdmb. we take care of each other.

in case you don't know yet what pm's are, if you look to the upper left of the page you'll see something that says "new messages" and it will say how many you have, new or unread. just click on that and it will take you to your inbox. it's basically email for the board. there you will find the pm's (private messages) from Carol, Carolyn, and Sherri and you can click on them one at a time and read them. you can also respond to them there but since they are sharing their phone numbers with you you can just call them

if there's anything else you have questions about on how the board works or where to find something here i'm sure they will answer those questions too.

and you'll never be on your own.

 

If you are getting a newbie kit from then that will have everything to get you started on home testing, but after that you would need to supply the strips for that meter yourself. DCIN is a seperate indentity but if you qualify for their financial aid they will help supply all of Budda's insulin as well as testing supplies, about the only thing I pay for with Musette is her syringes and those I get from Walmart and they are $13 for 100 syringes so they last me a little under two months.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Hi,

I just spoke to Carolyn on the phone. Thanks Carolyn for taking the time. I spoke to the vet and they said there are no Ketone levels. They did the cheapest test to save me money and it was a urine dip stick. She has never prescribed the water bag but said I can get one there and IV lines for around $14. She suggested I don't give too much or too little and without knowing his hydration levels...she wants to do a follow-up exam and find the values so she can make sure he's getting the right amount of water. I'm in Minneapolis tonight until after 10pm so I plan to feed Bubba baby food or tuna or 9lives then give 1 unit of insulin from the package I'll get today from this site. I have no money for daycare this week as it went to the vet so things are on hold until my child support comes in. I asked for it for this Thursday but technically the x doesn't have to pay until the 1st of the month. That's where I'm at with things and the fact that bubba would only eat dry food a bit this morning and not the 9 lives. Technically, I should leave work now and get him to the vet for IV fluids but I can't leave work. I work tomorrow until 3:45 and I'm off all day Friday and the weekend.

 

Good! Glad you spoke with the vet.
So others know what we talked about....
1. Bubba is not eating as well and one of Patti's furkids threw up. I encouraged her to focus on feeding as much as she could. I suggested the Gerbers chicken or turkey baby food (plain meat), and watering down the wet food to a soup.

2. Call the vet and get the glucose number they found that led to the FD dx. Ask for a bag of fluids, IV lines, needles. Ask how much fluids she should give. It sounds like the urinalysis was done the proper way and no infection was found.

3. Find or ask for the hometesting links here, and practice as soon as the kit comes in the mail. The two of us will try to connect on Friday, so I can teach her.

It is very unclear as to whether or not Bubba had/has ketones. I think it would be a good idea to get some ketostix somehow and test at home.

I hope others will offer their thoughts on this, but I am concerned about giving Bubba insulin w/o knowing any BG numbers (both from the vet or at home). It sounds like they used a pee stick to determine there was sugar in the urine. Usually renal threshold is in the 200's. So, Bubba could have BG's as low as the 200's or as high as 500+. He may not be eating reliably, and possibly vomiting. Monitoring - food, behavior, and BG's will be nearly impossible if a shot is given tonight because Patti will need to sleep and then go to work the next day. I see the vet says there are NO ketones (but do we really know???).

What do others think? I would lean toward not giving a shot until Thursday pm, and only if Patti is able to home test. Otherwise waiting until Friday when I can get to her and teach her how to test.

Thoughts?!?!

 

Just another note....Supplies I have are pretty much down to nothing. I have maybe 10-20 syringes, meters w/ no strips, lancets, neosporin, and needles for subq.

Patti-
I can't remember if the law applies in MN. A lot of states require a vet to write a prescription if the owner asks vs getting it from their clinic. I can check into that later tonight. If you need the fluids, right now the quickest way to get a bag is through your vet.

 

The vet will sell me it but I don't have the money. The box of supplies came and my boyfriend was kind enough to get the insulin in the fridge for me and he tried giving Bubba tuna and he licked a little I guess but not really consuming a whole lot. I plan to give him a syringe full of water a few times tonight if he'll allow it. A lady from work will give me a box of syringes tomorrow So thankful right now.

 

DCIN's supplies got to Patti today. She has a pen of Lantus, a Bayer Contour glucometer with strips and lancets, 100 Relion U100 syringes with 1/2U markings, and a rice sock. Given the discussion here, DCIN is shipping a bag of Lactated Ringer's solution, an admin line, needles, and a vial of Ketostix for delivery on Friday morning so that they are there when Carolyn visits.

I spoke to Bubba's vet yesterday. The diagnostic test she did was on Bubba's urine. I was told that ketones were "very trace" but that the glucose was "bright." The vet prescribed 1U of Lantus twice a day. She also recommended getting Bubba (a bit of a hefty boy) to lose some weight.

The hometesting links and tips are here. (Patti, please be sure to plug in the meter so that the battery is charged before you try it.)Many of us learned to hometest by reviewing those materials. I learned by testing myself before trying it on my cat.

The sooner you can test Bubba, Patti, the sooner you will be able to give him insulin, and the sooner he will start feeling better and appropriately urinating.

(Edited to remove comment about charging the meter. DCiN did not send the USB meter. Oops!)

 

Yes, Bubba has been a big boy for years now and we did free feeding and then cut that to manually feeding to using the feeder twice a day. He learned to stick his paw up the feeder to get more food. I'm feeding all my cats 1/4 cup twice a day now. Bubba is 18.5lbs

 

Thank you Venita and DCIN! That should be a great start. I have a handful of contour strips that expire this month, so I will bring them with as well.

It sounds to me like Venita is also voting no insulin until you can get a test in Patti. Is that right Venita?

 

Testing is the ideal, Carolyn, especially given that the vet did not diagnose through a blood test. I don't want to take a shoot/don't shoot position for various reasons, the most important one being that I have no hands-on knowledge of Bubba's condition. But I will observe that Bubba's diagnosing vet prescribed a dose and did not expect hometesting, and was dismayed when I spoke to her that Bubba had not yet been started on insulin. Dr. A thought that time was of the essence in getting Bubba started on insulin.

The only firm position I will take is the one I took before. I highly encourage Patti to look through the meter's quick guide, practice testing on herself and perhaps other people she has around, study the hometesting links and tips, and then take a stab (pun intended) at testing Bubba. The longer you wait to give Bubba insulin, Patti, the worse he is going to feel. Diabetic ketoacidosis truly is not a place you want him to end up. That is a life-threatening condition that costs about $1,000 day to treat at an emergency veterinary hospital with an average stay of about 4 days. For Bubba, DKA likely would be a death sentence.

I shot my first diabetic cat (Maxwell) for two weeks without hometesting. But, he had tested something like 550 mg/dl at the vet and was PU/PD/lethargic. For me, the hometesting was both an ignorance thing (not knowing what meter to buy) and a money thing. If someone had put an appropriate meter into my hands, I would have tested him from day 1.

Venita

 

I watched a couple YouTube videos on taking a reading and on the IV line. I couldn't get myself to poke myself. I'll try on Bubba today. The vet said he must eat first. Bubba takes a lick or two of the wet food and now tuna and is not interested. I got some water in him by syringe but only little. Until he eats I can't give him the insulin according to the vet. The meter has no charge cord. Should it have one?

 

Bubba is 157 at 7am before eating. Is this bad?

 

Called vet and 157 is fine. They're more worried about him going on day 3 of not eating bit a few licks. They won't give a recommendation as to now much whatever to give by IV without setting him. Not sure your thoughts on that. I was searching for blood values here to see what's normal and what's not and couldn't locate it day enough. I had to leave for work. I read to stay small on the insulin. Vet said diabetic cats can have numbers in the 400-500 range. That would be a concern and to give insulin. She said you can see it in the 50 range. Not sure if you do nothing.

 

good job on the testing. 157 is not high enough to give insulin in my opinion.

remind me what Bubba was eating before? and do you still have any of it around? if so, let him have it. at this point eating is the bigger concern. if he doesn't eat enough he's gonna end up with other things wrong with him.

and do you have any pepcid in the house? just regular stuff, not Complete. if so, you can give him 1/4 of a 10mg tablet in case he's not eating due to an upset tummy.

 

Thanks!

I was feeding Bubba 1/4 cup of Nutro dry cat food and after the visit from the vet and coming on here I picked up 9-lives and have tried giving him that for two days and last night we tried tuna and this morning I tried a different flavor of 9 lives with some dry Nutro cat food. He eats a tiny bit and walks away. I have to find the baby food tonight as I may have some on hand and I'll try that or syringe it in his mouth. I had to leave for work so I didn't see whether he ate this morning. Tonight I will monitor that better.

 

Bubba needs to eat and IMO go back to what he was eating, even if it was dry, get him back on food. You can always try slowly to get him over to canned. Yes, it might make his numbers higher but testing will tell you that. He needs to eat before fatty liver starts up.

 

Great job on the testing!!!!! :thumbup

I think it is reasonable for your vet not to advise an amount of subq fluids without seeing your cat first. My guess is, if he is not eating, he probably needs some. That said, there can be potential dangers if a cat is given too much. Do you think they would let you bring him in and just do a hydration check in order to give you better directions on how much and when to offer subq's?

I agree that you should let Bubba eat whatever he wants right now. If he will eat his old food, let him have it. The most important thing is that he eats SOMETHING, Ok?

Am I correct in assuming you did NOT give insulin this a.m.?

I can give you a call some time after 9 tonight, if that is not too late....then we can set up a time to meet tomorrow, if you are still interested.

Have a good day, Patti!

 

No insulin given yet to him. You may call then. Learning techniques might be good for me and to have someone there who has done it before doesn't hurt any. I might be able to figure it out all on my own if I had too. But the assistance is nice to better understand what I'm looking for.

 

93 at 6 pm
before food
How soon after he eats should I test?

 

7pm 187 then ate some kibble. Per Carolyn test in 2 hours after eating.

Could there be that chance he was falsely diagnosed by vet? He seems to be holding an acceptable range. We will see what comes with the 9pm reading.

 

definitely a chance he was falsely diagnosed. or he could be borderline diabetic. but clearly there's something going on given the unwillingness to eat and all. some of the numbers are higher than normal but that could be caused by pain, infection, etc.....

how did he eat the kibble? did he seem more interested in eating or still pretty inappetant? if he ate it normally maybe the inappetance is more stubbornness? if he was still a bit inappetant i'm thinking there's something else going on

 

107 9pm 2 hours after eating alittle kibble

 

124 pre food at 7am

 

He's eating what I'd consider normal. He's slow to approach and eats slow. He was at the dish several minutes.

 

87 two hours post meal

 

AM numbers are in the 100's and post eating are under 100, is that ok?

Is it ok that one AM he's 157 and other AM it's low 100's?

Is today's post eating 87 ok? The vet seemed to say 50 would be a concern. 87 isn't too for off.

 

Those numbers are just fine Normal blood glucose levels are roughly 60 to 150. Some non-diabetic cats even test way down in the 40s.

Numbers fluctate all the time (from food, stress, etc) so don't worry about them.

Since your cat is not on insulin, the numbers you are getting are fine. Your cat cannot hypo.

 

agreed, without insulin you have nothing to worry about as far as those glucose levels go.

 

181 pre food 8am 3/31

106 after breakfast before dinner 2pm

 

Vet called me. She said she wants to do a blood glucose comparison because this monitor I'm using its a human one.

 

If anybody has the means to help with the $100 I put down on his last visit (I'm 2.5 months behind on my house payment and need that $100 back to put on the mortgage)

I owe $66 at vet clinic still and I'll owe more for the visit today

I've checked into other online places and they are out of donations and I'm not sure she to reach or to.

Southview Animal Hospital
32 Mendota Road
Inver Grove Heights, MN 55077

 

If your vet is using an animal-validated meter, at lower levels the reading between that and your Bayer Contour meter will differ by about 30 points. That is simply the nature of the calibration of the animal-validated meters. Perhaps you should ask your vet to check with the Veterinary Information Network (VIN) about the difference between the human and animal-validated meters, or perhaps she will compare the meters side-by-side on her own dime given it is simply to satisfy her own curiosity.

I have five animal-validated meters sitting in my supply room that DCIN cannot pay people to take, given the $1 to $2 cost of each strip.

 

$34 to compare values and they said to stop come in because monitors can vary. I'm frustrated
.

 

$47.70 to do the comparison with tax. My monitor is 32 under. Their reading 187. Their advice is to feed kibble and fancy fiest but to keep kibble as it's good for their teeth. I feed 1/4 cup kibble between 3 cats and 1 can between 3 cats twice a day. I'm to weight him in a month. Then think about cutting food back. She feeds her car 1/8 cup 2x day. I'm too take blood glucose once a week.

 

How do you feel about that advice, Patti?

 

I would call and ask for my money back. If they wanted to compare meters they could have done that on their own time w/o stressing out a cat (and human) to come in for an office visit.

Did you talk to the other clinic and get his records transferred?

Here is a good link about transitioning cats to wet food and safe weight loss
http://www.catinfo.org/

Let me know if there is anything I can help with.

 

I read what Vennis said to the clinic and they still wanted me to come in. I'm not happy. I was told on here or was a 30 difference and I told her that and it was 32 difference. I guess they had someone who had a monitor which was way off and they said they should have noted which monitor that was but they didn't. So, they had to make sure with mine that it was accurate. I got them to add what I owe to my tab and now I will add it to my bankruptcy which I'm not closed out of.

I have Bubbas paperwork and will transfer clinics from now on. This Southview won't want to see me anyway now that I won't be paying them.

 

Just checking in to see how things are going!

 

Things are ok. Bubba is eating and I'll test him weekly. I have his records and need to deliver them to Inver Grove Animal Hospital and I'm done with Southview
.

 

I am glad Bubba is eating.

Will you still be feeding him the kibble?

 

Yes, but it's not much. It's like 10 pieces. I'm dividing up that 1/4 cup 3 ways. It'll keep his teeth strong. So to read some is ok. He's eating the fancy feast too mixed in.

 

Sadly, it won't. Cats' teeth are designed by nature to tear and rip, not to chew. Cats do not masticate dry food. Have you ever seen a pile of fully formed dry food thrown up by a cat? Cats swallow kibble whole or mostly whole.

The glucose levels of diabetic cats introduce serious dental disease. Feline dental procedures, being done under general anesthesia, are not inexpensive procedures. Depending on the extent of the disease and the market, feline dental procedures range from about $300 to about $1200.

You can reduce Bubba's glucose levels, and reduce his risk of dental disease, by eliminating all dry food, even the occasional piece. If you want to keep his teeth healthy, you can brush his teeth once or twice daily.

 

Patti,

Feeding dry food for dental health is a myth, it doesn't do anymore good for a cat than we humans eating potato chips or cookies for dental health. Plus if your diabetic is as carb sensitive as my Musette then even a few pieces can drive up those BG readings. I know with Musette as few as 3-4 pieces of dry food with rocket her bloodsugar into the 400s.

First off cats don't really chew their food, they are made to rip, tear and swallow so the dry food doesn't get a lot of time in the mouth to scrap the plaque off their teeth. The best thing for dental health in a cat is giving them raw bones to gnaw on or things like chicken gizzards which are very fiberous. Howeve, you don't want to give them bones that have been cook as that is what makes them dangerous because they become brittle and can splinter. Around here all the cats get chicken wings about once a week to gnaw on and all 16 of them have beautiful teeth except my two diabetics who where both dry fed all their lives and now need dentals.

Bubba would do much better if you could completely wean him off the dry and onto a full wet diet with a few raw bones (with plenty of meat on them of course) to gnaw on if tyou are concerned about his teeth. Or learning to brush his teeth

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Oh, yes, I forgot that part. Cut-up raw chicken necks also are good to clean cats' teeth. Some butchers sell the raw necks very cheaply (or give them away).

 

Sorry, but a vet charging to compare meters and demanding that you come into the office for visits that are NOT needed? Change vets now.

I am not sure if anyone gave you the link to Dr. Lisa's site.... good info, very good, with much on diet and in particular that myth about the dry being good for the teeth. Nope, it's not.

Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition

Here's a bit from the site:
Dental Disease: Long-standing claims that cats have less dental disease when they are fed dry food versus canned food are grossly overrated, inaccurate, and are not supported by recent studies. This frequently stated (among veterinarians and lay people) myth continues to harm cats by perpetuating the idea that their food bowls need to be filled up with an unhealthy diet in order to keep their teeth clean.

The idea that dry food promotes dental health makes about as much sense as the idea that crunchy cookies would promote dental health in a human.

First, dry food is hard, but brittle, and merely shatters with little to no abrasive effect on the teeth. Second, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and tearing meat - not biting down on dry kibble. Third, many cats swallow the majority of their dry food whole.

In general, most dry food have higher carbs so if you want to get rid of the need for insulin and testing and all the associated medical costs, a cheaper and healthier option is to feed wet low carb foods.
If you think about it, you feed dry food, the BG goes up, you give insulin to balance if off and bring numbers down. Then you feed more dry and then the BG goes up, and ..... you get the picture.
I know that some people make claims that some dry are low carb but that's not the only thing wrong with feeding dry food.
I would say that if you have a cat that eats some wet, then you are good to go with removing the dry.

 

Interesting about the hard vs soft and their teeth. When I was in Vet Tech school I was told hard food is better for them. They are eating the mixture still. I like the chicken idea with the meat on the bone. They'd love it I bet! Does the chicken have to be cooked or can it be raw? I don't eat chicken on the bone so I'd get it just for them.

How about dogs then? Should they be on wet food too? I know my dog gets board with dry food so I mix up the brands and now I'm trying to stick with quality food like Froms and I add a bit of wet from time to time and she enjoys that. So much so that when it's just dry in the bowl she'll look at me funny and refuse to eat. Eventually she does eat it but still funny how she responds to dry food only without the wet mixed in.

87 blood glucose at 1am before eating "monitor is 32 off so 55" still no insulin given and haven't noticed him peeing around the house. Have noticed poop here and there though. Not sure which cat is doing that. My beloved Mama kitty did that when she was suffering from a bladder infection.

I have Bubba's records in hand and will stop into the new vet clinic and hand them over.

 

It must be raw, If you cook it, the bones become brittle and can shatter while being chewed and cause problems (such as tearing the mouth or GI tract if they swallow one). Raw bones crunch but don't splinter.

I don't know about dog food. I don't have dogs. I know they are not obligate carnivores like cats and thus can tolerate the grains in dry food.

 

Sad isn't it? Look at all the vets that truly believe Science Diet is a high quality food. They went to a little seminar hosted by Hills where they were told the food was made with quality ingredients, healthy, good for teeth, among other things... and few of them care enough or have the time to ask why and educate themselves otherwise.

Also - cat meters read higher in general. The 30 point difference is usually already accounted for in literature here because probably 99% of users on here use human meters. Hypo on a human meter is below 50, on a cat meter below 80. If you got an 85 on your human meter, it would actually read as approximately 115 on a cat meter (not 55). Not the other way around. Otherwise your cat would be very hypoglycemic on one meter but not the other :lol: 87 on a human meter is still too low for most to shoot without a lot of data to go by, though.

 

Patti--

How is Bubba??

Venita

 

Oh yeah lol, the numbers I get on the human are 30-32 lower than the cat monitor so I would add 30-32 to get to the cat monitor number. Oops, my error when I posted.

Well, Bubba I think is peeing on the rug in front of the litter box 2x in one day and either it was the cat or dog that peed on the kitchen floor 2 days in a row and then once on the food dish that was on the floor. He's eating normal. More wet than dry now and sometime all wet food. He has never had insulin. He behaves normal. Just don't know why he's peeing on the floor. Maybe old age? I can't afford to take him in again so I'm just dealing with the inappropriate peeing right now.

 

When he went to the vet before, did the vet rule out a urinary tract problem? If so, when was that?

 

When I went in there the first time I told them that I thought he had a UTI and I wanted a urine analysis. They did that and it came back as Ketones in the Urine.

 

3/26 I'm assuming they ruled it out. I came in and told them to check for it. Since they didn't say whether or not he had a UTI I assume he didn't. I assume the issue was diabetes.

 

You have Bubba's records from the last vet, right?
You can look at the urinalysis and see what it says. If you have questions you could scan/post it here, or write down what it says.
If you do not have them, call the clinic and ask them for a copy of his last urinalysis at the other place. You could pick it up or they could mail it to you.

Incontinence in cats because they are 'old' usually occurs when they are sleeping, or laying down.
It is usually behavioral or disease related when they are choosing other places to urinate. If it is not cleaned up REALLY WELL, they will often continue to urinate there again. There was a lot of incontinence in my house when I had Latte, so I learned a great deal about the issue. It was usually related to an infection.

What kind of blood sugar values are you getting now that you have pretty much switched food?

Any other plan of action? I am glad you have supplies sent by DCIN to take care of most things you may need to start treating his diabetes, if need be!

Don't be a stranger!!! :mrgreen:

 

I do have the paperwork in hand from the vet.
It states:
Method-Cysto
Color-Yellow
Appearance-Clear
Spec. Gravity .1040
Urobilinogen=Neg
Protein=++300
PH=7
Blood=+++Large
Ketone=Trace
Bilirubin=Neg
Glucose=2000
Casts=Neg
WBC=0-5
RBC=5-10
Crystals=None Seen
Epithelia=Squam
Bacteria=None
Other=NA

Haven't tested Glucose since last reading I posted

 

Regarding the pH:

http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis_urinalysis.htm
http://maxshouse.com/feline_urological_syndrome_fus.htm
*this site states pH up to 7 can be normal. It may be good to inquire with the new vet, tho*

http://www.cat-world.com.au/urinalysis

Regarding Blood in the Urine:

http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis_urinalysis.htm

Regarding Protein in Urine:

http://www.cat-world.com.au/urinalysis

Regarding White/Red Blood Cells:

http://www.cat-world.com.au/urinalysis

Other than the ketones and BG, everything else seems good. The one's I put in bold and added explanations may be worth asking your vet about, especially if symptoms continue.

Testing a cat who is diabetic and/or borderline, especially when you have the supplies at home, is a good way to prevent a future emergency. Infection and not enough insulin is one of the main recipes for ketones. If he does develop ketones again, it could become an emergency, which I know would be difficult to swing financially (it is for most people), and could quite possibly cause you to face the decision that brought you here for help.

i wish you guys the best!

 

Right after eating Bubba was at 87

 

Unless you have lots of data to know it is safe do so, no insulin!

For beginners, we recommend you not give insulin below 200. This number is lowered as you get to know how your cat responds to it.

 

They obtained the sample via needle just fyi

 

I don't feel he's diabetic and I plan not to give insulin as it may kill him. I can't take him in for more tests so I'll just watch and see how he does. He's eating fine and behaving fine. No peeing outside the litterbox for a couple of days now.

 

You may have a diet (& health) controlled diabetic. In other words, susceptible to diabetes if infection or dry food are present.

Because aging causes slow deterioration in the body, I would suggest continuing to test daily this week, and then maybe weekly if he stays below 150, and then perhaps monthly after you're reasonably sure he is stable at good numbers.

Keep an eye on the litterbox and if you ever see lakes of wet litter, or a huge increase in appetite, glucose test and see the vet, even if the glucose is low, as those are not normal. Lakes of wet litter can be renal disease and huge appetite increase can be thyroid disease. Keeping track of the 5 Ps - purring, playing, preening (grooming), peeing and pooping - give you data about the health of your cat. An attentive owner can spot problems more quickly and possible intervene to control, reduce or eliminate the condition.