08/30 Butters AMPS 157../+4.5 59/+4.75 77/+5 95/+5.5 90/+6 88/+6.5 94/+8 88/+11 137/PMPS 140/+2 229/

Butters & Lyla

Butters & Lyla

Member Since 2020
Yesterday

Today this AM is cycle 6 of 1.75. If she heads back up into the 200s and 300s on this cycle, what are your opinions on increasing her by .25u tonight?

I know what the TR protocol states about holding a dose for 6-10 consecutive cycles if nadirs are below 200. Are her AMPS beach visits considered nadirs? I had read/been told cats can drop lower right at the end of their cycle, which is what I think she is doing lately, so not a nadir.

I don't think she is new to numbers under 200. We were in a pretty decent pattern of greens followed by a bounce, up until a few weeks ago when she suddenly stopped responding well to her dose, and I have been increasing ever since. I am anxious to try to get her into greens again.

Thank you:)
 
Interesting...on 8/23 and 8/26 she gave you some blue starts...and then fizzled. Let's see what happens today. She's given you a beautiful blue start - let's see if she's got some holding power now (enough juice) to get her through the day.

Perhaps some of the experienced members will weigh in as well with some thoughts and opinions.

Based on experience I'd push on with another increase but that's just me...Luci can be so very stubborn..but at least it does appear that she's getting the most she can from her current dose as she does hit the lagoon just about daily now...it's her duration that is lacking.

Butters needs what she needs...a dose that will get her there...at least to toe dip in the lagoon - would be a sign that she's getting enough juice to lower that BG - even if just for a little while.

Keep testing an doing what you're doing Lyla! Great job!!
 
113 @ +2. I rechecked just to make certain. That's a 44 point drop between AMPS and +2.

ETA: Maybe it is action time! Fed 1 tsp LC @+2. Will recheck at +3.
 
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The nadir is the lowest point of the cycle. There are, however, times when there is a late nadir which can make things confusing!

Butters is not new to lower numbers and if you read carefully, you hold the dose if nadirs (pleural) are in blues and greens. Most of Butters' nadirs are yellow. If it were me, I'd increase unless this cycle tells you differently.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
The nadir is the lowest point of the cycle. There are, however, times when there is a late nadir which can make things confusing!

Butters is not new to lower numbers and if you read carefully, you hold the dose if nadirs (pleural) are in blues and greens. Most of Butters' nadirs are yellow. If it were me, I'd increase unless this cycle tells you differently.
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Thank you for the help. I cannot read the protocol enough, it seems. Wendy had mentioned maybe a week ago Butters looks to have late nadirs. I do find the late nadirs to be very confusing.

I want to take the increase and am still planning to do so, even if I get this little surf going here. I assume it would be crystal clear if her cycle ends up telling me differently?
 
Sue and Luci said:
I usually always give Luci a snack after a test..especially when there are falling numbers. However, she's pretty spoiled and thinks she should get a snack after 'every single test'. She has me well trained :joyful:
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LOL! Luci has done an excellent job training you.

I tested at +2 and gave a 1 tsp snack, and did the same thing at +3. Just tested again and she is 70 @+4. I'm a bit concerned that it is still kinda early in the cycle and wondering if I should try some MC. I'm going to give her 1tsp LC and a 1/2 tsp MC on it and see what happens.
Open to suggestions though, if anyone is around.

Butters has not shown herself to be particularly sensitive to carbs in the past, hence my concerns.
 
I like your plan...watch her like a hawk. I'm glad it's Sunday - hope that means you have nothing else to do but 'helicopter' Miss Butters.

I see what you mean about her lack of sensitivity to carbs! If it were Luci I'd probably stick with the LC, but you do have a point there...a tiny bit (a 1/2 tsp of MC, mostly the gravy) might be just what she needs to keep her from diving...

It does take experimentation at this point - if she bobbles up to the blues, you'll know that that little bit of MC helped...if at the next check she's still falling, I'd go for a tsp or so of MC...don't let her drop below 50...otherwise she'll lose her dose - and it appears to finally be working for her.:D:D

HAPPY DAY! Well, at least I hope it's a happy day for you...you've been so patient for all these days.:joyful::joyful:

At least you know she was reading the forum and listening to your discussions about a dose increase!! I swear they KNOW when we're talking about an increase...happens every time! Where is my foil hat???:facepalm:
 
330px-Manwithtinfoilhat.jpg

LOL!

This one is more 'me' :)

FoilHat.jpg
 

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LOL!!! And just my size! Thanks Sue. :joyful:

I ended up feeding 1 tsp LC and 1/4 tsp MC gravy. I think I'll retest again at +4.5. The night of August 7th forever etched in my brain as the night Butters showed us exactly how insensitive to carbs she can be.:eek:

It is a happy day for me. I am enjoying it for what it is. Big time helicopter parenting going on here today. I am not going anywhere.
 
Looks like Butters is having an exciting start to the day. 59 is a nice safe green. Goal is to try and keep Butters in these nice greens as long as we can. You have given some MC, which will hopefully help you guys to surf it out.

And looks like some sugar syrup... Ok.
 
thebigfuzz said:
Looks like Butters is having an exciting start to the day. 59 is a nice safe green. Goal is to try and keep Butters in these nice greens as long as we can. You have given some MC, which will hopefully help you guys to surf it out.

And looks like some sugar syrup... Ok.
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Yep. :)
Butters has shown me a few times that she can be pretty (or extremely) insensitive when it comes to carbs, so I decided to give her a drop of syrup given how early it is in her cycle for her to be this low.
 
thebigfuzz said:
You have about 10-15 mins till the next test right?

You've got this!
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About 15 minutes. I'm going to get one shortly, which is about 15 minutes since her MC and syrup, just to see if there is a reaction. I hate that I stuffed her with so many carbs at a 59, but until she shows me she will react to them I'm not taking my chances. :)
 
Interested spot to watch today. :D Classic cat and dose increase threats. :rolleyes: Now you get to hang onto the dose a couple more days.

Butters & Lyla said:
I do find the late nadirs to be very confusing.
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Late nadirs make you think outside the box. Don't be hemmed in to thinking just between the preshots. The nadir is the lowest point of the cycle but probably better to think about the duration or time the insulin is acting to lower the BG, from onset to nadir and back up. On Lantus, Neko had nadirs as late as +13, on Levemir as late as +15.
 
thebigfuzz said:
It's ok, the sugar will wear off, probably by +5.5. What do you think of holding food for now and seeing +5?
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Looks like I may have ruined her surf carbing her up so much: 95 @+5.
I'll check again at +5.5.
I have learned from this, though, at her expense. :facepalm:

ETA: No more feeding for now!
 
Every cat seems to have a secret recipe to figure out the surf. Like @Sue and Luci said... It takes experimentation to see what will work for Butters.

+2 113 1tsp LC
+3 94 1tsp LC
+4 70 1 tsp LC + 1/4 tsp MC gravy
+4.5 59 1tsp MC gravy +1/8 tsp sugar syrup
+4.75 77 no food
+5 95 no food
 
thebigfuzz said:
Every cat seems to have a secret recipe to figure out the surf. Like @Sue and Luci said... It takes experimentation to see what will work for Butters.

+2 113 1tsp LC
+3 94 1tsp LC
+4 70 1 tsp LC + 1/4 tsp MC gravy
+4.5 59 1tsp MC gravy +1/8 tsp sugar syrup
+4.75 77 no food
+5 95 no food
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This is great! Thank you for pulling it all together. :bighug:.
I'm looking at the 95 in terms of the jump from 59 to 77 to 95 over a 30 minute period, thinking that the carbs I gave her really made her zoom up. Unless of course there just happened to be a bounce starting, too. :confused: Almost time for the +5.5
 
I'm actually glad you're getting to experiment a bit...and happy to see how well she responded to the carbs!

It does take time to get a full picture of how they respond...but I think you were 100% correct in experimenting...how else will you know? And next time it maybe be more like the previous times...these kitties love to keep all this to themselves.

Let's hope after a little time off the food she can come right on back down to the lagoon and keep on surfing...if not, she might tonight...let's see what she has in store for you this afternoon.
 
Sue and Luci said:
I'm actually glad you're getting to experiment a bit...and happy to see how well she responded to the carbs!

It does take time to get a full picture of how they respond...but I think you were 100% correct in experimenting...how else will you know? And next time it maybe be more like the previous times...these kitties love to keep all this to themselves.

Let's hope after a little time off the food she can come right on back down to the lagoon and keep on surfing...if not, she might tonight...let's see what she has in store for you this afternoon.
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Today does give me a some confidence back that she will respond to carbs. This crazy night on August 7th (@thebigfuzz and @Briere Fur Mom were there) made me feel like I in fact am not always in control of Butters' cycles. I fed her 3 tbsp of HC plus syrup very early on and she was still dropping below 50 for hours after. I know I 100% did not make a dosing error. Before calipers, I used to triple check every dose against a syringe filled with coloured water to the correct line, so it wasn't a dosing error. I am ready to move on from this now, though and chalk up that night to a one off! :)
 
+2 113 1tsp LC
+3 94 1tsp LC
+4 70 1 tsp LC + 1/4 tsp MC gravy
+4.5 59 1tsp MC gravy +1/8 tsp sugar syrup
+4.75 77 no food
+5 95 no food
+5.5 90 no food
We are currently at: +6 88 no food

I'm thinking of not testing again for an hour. She isn't bothered by it, so I could do one at +6.5.
She is out of it from the carbs.
 

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Wendy&Neko said:
Interested spot to watch today. :D Classic cat and dose increase threats. :rolleyes: Now you get to hang onto the dose a couple more days.


Late nadirs make you think outside the box. Don't be hemmed in to thinking just between the preshots. The nadir is the lowest point of the cycle but probably better to think about the duration or time the insulin is acting to lower the BG, from onset to nadir and back up. On Lantus, Neko had nadirs as late as +13, on Levemir as late as +15.
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Her nickname is "not a cat", so it's nice to see some classic cat behaviour exhibited once in a while. :D
Okay, I'm holding her dose for a couple of days.

I have been studying Neko's spreadsheets and Butters' in between tests today. I can see similarities on some days and I think (hope) I am starting to get it:
A "cycle" is a fixed period of time, generally 12 hours. It begins once a shot is given and ends right before the next shot.
The "duration" is variable. It starts at onset when the insulin starts to take effect, continues through nadir and then "duration" ends once there is a rise in BG numbers following nadir.

With the late nadirs: it important to focus on the duration of the insulin, and stop fixating on the 12 hour cycle. I have focused on the typical 12 hour cycle example in the "new to the group" sticky. It has been dictating my testing to a degree (always getting a +2 or +3, searching for a nadir around +6). All very "inside the box" thinking. I need to step away from this start figuring out how long duration is, and when Butters nadirs happen relative to duration?

The periods from after the rise until the next onset: are these showing when the insulin effect has worn off and/or that the dose doesn't seem to be working?

I hope that some of this makes sense.
 
+2 113 1tsp LC
+3 94 1tsp LC
+4 70 1 tsp LC + 1/4 tsp MC gravy
+4.5 59 1tsp MC gravy +1/8 tsp sugar syrup
+4.75 77 no food
+5 95 no food
+5.5 90 no food
+6 88 no food
We are currently at +6.5 94 no food

Got a bit distracted after testing her at +6.5. Planning her next test for +7.5
 
Turned out not to be a bad surf after all. :D

A cycle is the 12 hours between shots by definition. I like to think in terms of putting that "typical schedule" from the sticky on a set of rollers, and moving it back and forth in relation to the preshots which are fixed points. Of course, cats can and do change their nadirs. Neko's was reliably between +3.5 and +13 on Lantus. :rolleyes: Earlier when looking for a reduction, later if breaking a bounce. Butters has had a couple dramatic bounce breaking cycles, that tend to have extra momentum, that led to under 50's at the end of the cycle.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Turned out not to be a bad surf after all. :D

A cycle is the 12 hours between shots by definition. I like to think in terms of putting that "typical schedule" from the sticky on a set of rollers, and moving it back and forth in relation to the preshots which are fixed points. Of course, cats can and do change their nadirs. Neko's was reliably between +3.5 and +13 on Lantus. :rolleyes: Earlier when looking for a reduction, later if breaking a bounce. Butters has had a couple dramatic bounce breaking cycles, that tend to have extra momentum, that led to under 50's at the end of the cycle.
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I like the visual of the typical schedule on a set of rollers. I could definitely see the variation in times of Neko's nadirs. :)
This helps a lot. Thank you!
 
That face! Who can forget that face! You are having the busiest day @Butters & Lyla !! I am getting exhausted just reading about it! I was looking at your spreadsheet and I can totally see what you mean about a longer than 12 hour pattern in there... since I do statistics alot in my career, I am always wanting to download these data into a stats program and see if I can find patterns using some kind of time series analysis. :bookworm:
 
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