1/26 Pearl PMPS 290, +1 281, +2.5 183, +4 251

Discussion in 'Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)' started by Margaret (and Pearl), Jan 26, 2021.

  1. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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  2. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2013
    First it gets easier. Next green gets contagious. I promise!
     
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  3. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    I will take your word for it, Elise!
     
  4. tiffmaxee

    tiffmaxee Well-Known Member

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    Forgot to say congrats on shooting green!
    It’s guaranteed.
     
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  5. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Seems you actually know better how to deal with her green BGs at night and me suggesting the MC twice was too much for her. The MC at PMPS was fine but I wonder if the MC/LC mix you used before would have been better at +1? Lessons learned and you got a little more data on how carb sensitive Pearl might be.

    As I mentioned, Gracie had these type of cycles and one thing I learned to do eventually was to test at about +9.75 and if she was headed down quickly due to bounce clearing and where I might suspect a lower PMPS, I’d feed her a LC snack and just be sure she was done by +10. What that is meant to do is slow the drops that you see with bounce-clearing cycles. I wouldn’t do it with any other cycle or if she’s not headed to a low green PMPS.

    It might not work with Pearl or might not be necessary but it’s a tool in your toolbox.
     
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  6. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Hi :) I do think there is a lag on Pearl responding to the carbs right away, so tonight I will try the MC at PMPS (assuming we are green again - I think that is a likely assumption to make) and then try the LC/MC mix later on. I do also wonder if giving her too much MC at PMPS may have been the problem - I was so nervous and she was so hungry, I let her have 60g. Usually she only gets 20-30g of anything per mini meal. What do you think?
     
  7. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    I love this idea and will implement it! Thank you! PS - what number is a low green PMPS that I should try to be steering away from with her small snack?
     
  8. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Thanks much!! I was super shocked!
     
  9. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Yes that could have also been the issue...a little too much MC. But you will figure it out. It’s so ECID. The first time a kitty goes into green especially when clearing a bounce, I’d rather be conservative and give a little bit too many carbs than have the kitty end up in the 40s and the CG freaked out :p


    That actually depends on you and Pearl. When Gracie was on Lantus and clearing a bounce with a full head of steam, I didn’t want her giving me a 50 at PMPS that would be even lower by +2. You’ll have to play it by ear. If you see that on a bounce clearing cycle, she’s already in the low 70s or 60s by +9.75, and until you feel better about shooting 50s or you know Pearl is easy to bring up after shooting a 50 before she onsets, you might want to try it and see what it does. It might clip her duration more than you want. The eventual goal is to feel comfortable in shooting the 50s knowing she will come up enough after onset with her food so that you can take advantage of carryover and overlap. Does that make sense? Again, you might never need it with Pearl and it might not work for her.
     
  10. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    You don't have to worry about me freaked out - I can handle it. I can separate my own emotions when I need to and focus on the business.The thing that I do freak out about inside is not being sure that Pearl will ever "peak" after insulin and food. I have a feeling she isn't the cat who will have spikes, so then what to do. That is my primary worry.

    Yes, this make sense (theoretically), and I appreciate having the knowledge, that is how I work best. Thank you! We will just have to see now how it all plays out ;)
     
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  11. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Well she is 315 @ +11 so I don't see her late night swim happening. I was wrong.
     
  12. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Let’s just see. She’s been clearing bounces quickly and there’s always the old “high before the break”. But don’t tell her....shhhhhhh.
     
  13. JaxBenji

    JaxBenji Well-Known Member

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    The greens will come back :bighug: BTW, I saw you fed wellness (I do too) - I'm not sure if you knew but they post their nutrition info on their website - if you click on your flavor and then go down to nutrient profiles, you'll see a PDF. The carb content for the Turkey and Duck is <1% per Wellness. Just sharing as I see you have it listed in your SS as 5%. Also, and perhaps more importantly, the venison does not appear to be MC (the as fed is 1% while dry matter is 4%). I'm guessing you used Lisa's food list - I use it too but since it's a little dated, I just try to bump it up against the manufacturer if they post info on their site and/or I use Marje's instructions here.

    ETA - I meant to include the link to the Wellness site :) Just change the flavor and click the nutrient PDF - https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-cat-food/product-catalog/corer-pate-beef-venison-lamb
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  14. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Oh my goodness, the Venison isn't MC?! Is it HC, Susanne?!! Eeep! And yes I used Lisa's food list - I had NO CLUE the Turkey and Duck is SO LOW. Is it too low?? No wonder it doesn't slow down her dives, lol!! What Wellness flavor do you feed? Pearl LOVES it, esp the Venison
     
  15. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Well...this is true. She is a surprising girl. I will probably test her at +1 to check on any dives. And, if I am understanding what Susanne is saying...Marje my LC is uber-LC, and my MC isn't MC at all but also perhaps UBER-LC. Now I am freaking out a tad. I have to find a MC food. I have a HC (Royal Canin PD - she loves it, duck and potato).
     
  16. JaxBenji

    JaxBenji Well-Known Member

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    Jax eats Wellness Complete Chicken Pate and the Turkey Pate - they are both super low carb too (<1%). He seems to do just fine on them. ECID but I have read on here a lot of kitties do better with a few more carbs on board. It's more of a food experiment thing. I should also add I was feeding Jax FF Classic Pates but switched because my civvie (his brother) wouldn't touch them :p and I really wanted a food I could feed to both of them.

    Also, I feed FF Gravy Lovers for MC (Turkey or Chicken are 15%) and FF Gravy Lovers Beef for high carb (20%)...now for those I do use Lisa's :p Just track what you feed and you'll figure out if it's too much carb or too little.
     
  17. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    You’re missing one step :) Once you get the As-feds or DMB, there’s an additional step. I’ll do the calculations in just a bit.
     
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  18. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Ok, I'm going to practice calculations here (for the first time). I used the numbers off the can. Does this look right? And if it DOES look right, since her main food is 2.78% carbs can her MC be the 7.96% carbs since there is a big difference, or no does this not count?

    Wellness Beef, Venison, and Lamb
    Protein 12.0
    Fat 6.5
    Fiber 1.0
    Moisture 78.0
    Taurine 0.10
    total 97.6
    Carbs estimate 2.4

    Protein 12.0 x 3.5 = 42
    Carbs 2.4 x 3.5 = 8.4
    Fat 6.5 x 8.5 = 55.25
    total calories = 105.65

    Protein 42/105.65 = 39.8%
    Carbs 8.4/105.65 = 7.96%
    Fat 55.25/105.65 = 52.3%

    Wellness Turkey and Duck
    Protein 12.0
    Fat 8.0
    Fiber 1.0
    Moisture 78.0
    Taurine 0.10
    total 99.1
    Carbs estimate 0.9

    Protein 12.0 x 3.5 = 42
    Carbs 0.9 x 3.5 = 3.15
    Fat 8.0 x 8.5 = 68
    total calories = 113.15

    Protein 42/113.15 = 37.12%
    Carbs 3.15/113.15 = 2.78%
    Fat 68/113.15 = 60.1%
     
  19. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    It is such a difficult thing for me to find a MC food. Pearl is so PICKY. She doesn't eat the normal things cats like (gravy) and she has a lot of dietary issues with the IBD. She likes the Royal Canin PD which I think is 22%. Do you think I can make my own MC by adding a teeny bit of the HC to her uber LC??? And thanks so much for bringing this to my attention!!!
     
  20. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    You can’t use the numbers off the can. Those are guaranteed analysis. You have to use the as-feds or DMB on the pdf info sheets Susanne linked or if the food you are feeding is a different brand and those typical nutrient analyses are not on their website, you have to call for the as-feds or DMB.
     
  21. JaxBenji

    JaxBenji Well-Known Member

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    Got it. I have I just ran them through so maybe you can be my sanity check :bighug:

    Venison 3% and Duck 0.08% (I got the same values using as-fed and dmb).

    @Margaret (and Pearl) sorry for not totally understanding the percent of total cals (which is Marje's point). And FWIW I see different values than what you have posted above...ohh I see you were using GA values. Read Marje's post when you can (the one I linked) and it has an excellent article on how GA values aren't awesome :confused:

    Edited to correct my typo of 0.8% (should be 0.08% :))
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
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  22. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Oh I see. So, @JaxBenji and @Marje and Gracie Susanne has calculated Duck at 0.8% and Venison at 3.0% so I may be in a pickle with no MC food on board. No wonder Pearl's drops dont slow much! Can I "make" my own MC food by adding a teeny bit of the HC to her LC? She is so very choosy with her foods. I am at a loss for a MC food.
     
  23. JaxBenji

    JaxBenji Well-Known Member

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    Yes - it's an option in the Low Number sticky - If you have a cat with GI issues, using a couple of drops of syrup plus low carb food is an alternative.

    I'm sure you'll have to experiment with how many drops work for Pearl but am sure you'll figure it out :bighug:
     
  24. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Yep...I was just about to post. The beef, venison, lamb is 3% calories from carbs. For the Core Turkey and Duck pate, I got 0.1% using both as-feds and DMB. With these foods, you want to be sure and use 3.5 calories/gram for protein and carbs and 8.5 for fat.

    I used Cats in the Kitchen Pumpkin Lickin Chicken in the pouch (12% calories from carbs) and Gracie LOVED it. It worked great for her; I never had to use a HC food. If I really needed big guns, I used a syringe and just used a drop or two of karo. I had to be careful on what I fed Gracie, too, because she had IBD. I had started with Wellness but had to ditch it. I fed her ZiwiPeak for her normal LC food but geez it’s expensive! They’ve changed the formulas but they had none of the gums or other stuff that is so aggravating to IBD kitties. I didn’t have to use the Cats in the Kitchen enough to be an issue.
     
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  25. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Thank you for the confirmation on these numbers, Marje! I tried the Pumpkin Lickin Chickin - I think Pearl thinks she is a human and therefore shouldn't have to eat cat foods, seriously. There are about 3 she will eat - her HC, and the Venison and the Turkey. LOL guess she can now have as much Venison as she wants!

    I will go get some pouches tomorrow and try again - maybe she would be willing to try them again this time - I haven't experimented since her FD diagnosis. I wish I could do the Cats in the Kitchen pouches - do you know I scored a major deal before Christmas for 80 cents a pouch!!! I ended up donating to a rescue though, b/c it wasn't a hit here.
     
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  26. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    So MC sometimes for Gracie, HC a little bit but mostly the LC did the trick? That is awesome I hope for Pearl too.
     
  27. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    I used higher low carbs like 6% alot of the times but I also used some 3% but that never slowed her down. At one time, I had some 10% that she loved but then they changed the formula and it became very HC so I had to ditch it. Gosh, over five years, I tried alot of different stuff. I didn’t keep her charts. I wish I had but data and food changes.
     
  28. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    I think I will add a bit of my HC to her LC meals when I need a MC fix :D at least for now
     
  29. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    That is what Sienne did with Gabby because Gabby couldn’t tolerate gravies or glutens. Look at the most recent tab, BGs, and the remarks column. The HC is honey or syrup...I don’t remember which she used. The foods were pretty LC.
     
  30. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Thanks, I will take a peek. I tested her at +2.5 - down 100 points in an hour, UGGGHHHH. So I just mixed in 1tsp of her HC food with 30g of the LC (including the Venison which she loves and now is not MC anymore). I know we're gonna bounce though b/c of the drop. I got distracted thinking about MC foods, and my vet had called and AGAIN tried to discourage me from home testing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2021
  31. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    High before the break????
     
  32. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    LOL fingers crossed that's what it is! It doesnt make much sense for a dip and then another bounce does it?
     
  33. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    No, it doesn’t but I bet Pearl isn’t reading the FD Lantus Manual upload_2021-1-26_20-3-2.gif upload_2021-1-26_20-3-8.gif
     
  34. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    I think I lost my chance tonight...she is back up to 251 at +4. I don't know whether or not I should anticipate a drop late in the cycle.
     
  35. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Probably not. Sorry...fell asleep :eek: Night!
     
  36. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    Hope you slept, too. Yeah, I'm glad I did NOT check it later, since her AMPS today is 435. I cannot believe this sorry state of affairs! :mad: I think I need to keep going on as I have been, considering the Turkey as LC and adding the Venison for a little bit more "oomph" even though it is SO NOT a MC. Maybe there was a reason I was doing it that way to begin with.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
  37. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Well maybe this is the high before the break. Paws crossed. Until she does it, we won’t know her pattern.

    She might be really carb sensitive. Jill’s (I hope she’s loving on my Gracie big-time) Alex could get a BG bump off freeze dried chicken, she was so carb sensitive.

    Thanks..I did. I had my warm, snuggly, purry Tobey all cuddled up with me. He’s a hoot....if I roll over towards Mike, Tobey puts his paw on my shoulder...no claws...and gently pulls me back toward him :cat::cat:
     
  38. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    You might be right...we are down to 301 @+2. I will start a new post for today now. I'm glad you had your snuggly boy - that is SOOO FUNNY, :smuggrin::smuggrin::smuggrin::smuggrin::smuggrin:
     
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  39. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    He’s the warmest thing and his stocky SF body is just so cuddly!!!!!

    Let’s go Pearl!!!!! But don’t get crazy about it!
     
  40. Margaret (and Pearl)

    Margaret (and Pearl) Member

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    I think you may be right about the carb-sensitivity, since the Venison has seeeemed to help until now (??) So for now I will lay off that HC food I added last night (even a tsp), and save it only for the below 50s.

    Thank you! Yeah, let's go Pearl! I wish she was a cuddly one like Tobey, but she is my independent girl. The FD has made her for cuddly at times, for that part I am thankful!
     
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