10/09 Butters PMPS 76/+2.5 67/+3.5 70/

Butters & Lyla

Butters & Lyla

Member Since 2020
Yesterday In FD related news, Butters was at the beach overnight, but back in the lagoon this morning.
In maybe semi FD related news, I felt like I had the rug yanked out from under my feet with what appears to be early CKD coming back from her labs.
I do want to take her for tests again, as was suggested, so I can be sure what her numbers are. I really want to find a better vet practice, first, though. I did find a vet who currently does appointments by phone only (normally housecalls), she is a DVM and ND. She is mostly retired and requires you to have access to a clinic that will run the labs/tests she determines are needed. I'm going to give her a try.

Have a great day all.
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
@Butters & Lyla
I'm sorry to hear about Butters and yes Wendy is right , kitties in stage 2 of kidney
disease can live fine at stage 2 for years
If I remember correctly Perry was 6 yes old when he was diagnosed with kidney disease.
He passed at age 12
Tanya's site is excellent. I joined it and the members there are very helpful.
Excellent information.
Perry would never touch wet food so he always ate the K/D dry
Then he needed a binder when he started to get worse, I bought the Weruva
wet and put the binder in that. He ate that
On Tanya's web site lists a lot of the Weruva foods.
I don't think Butters is no where near needing a binder yet
You should join the site after you read up on things
I asked my vet the same question did food cause this, she said no they just
get kidney disease
It sucks , why do they have to get all these diseases
Her numbers looks awesome
Some of these vets know squat.
Glad you held your ground with the vet
Try and stay calm ok

All of Perry's labs are on Tyler's SS except his last one from Tues when I had to let
him go.

Here are the stages for kidney US
Creatinine below 1.6. Kidney function lost is 0-65%

Creatinine between 1.6 and 2.8 is Stage 2. Kidney function lost 66-75%

Creatinine between 2.9 and 5.0. Stage 3. Kidney function lost 76-90 %

Creatinine over 5.0. Stage 4. Kidney function lost over 90%

♥♥♥♥
Click to expand...
Thank you, Diane :bighug::bighug::bighug:. From the bottom of my heart. I know how much you are struggling right now after losing your heart kitty Perry to the same disease Butters now has. :( I don't know what else to say but thank you for helping us even while you mourn Perry. You are an angel.
 
Hang in there, Lyla :bighug: May you have clarity and peace in finding a new vet to help you on this journey.

And Butters was just visiting Jax last night lol. He guards the boarder between the lagoon and beach pretty well. Hope she talked to him about the lagoon.

:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
thebigfuzz said:
Aww Lyla, I’m sorry the lab results didn’t have better news :bighug: Butters is so lucky to have such a wonderful cat mama! I know you will master the new knowledge to help her as best you can :bighug: You will tackle this, just as you tackled FD! Look how much you know now, that you didn’t know then :)

They must teach in vet schools that testing is stressful to the extreme in cats, when really, it is tolerated so well after the new routine is established :cool: Maybe we should write to the vet schools to stop teaching that :eek: Our vet(s) said the same. Maybe they are scared of stressing out the humans or losing money on the fructosamine test? It’s a business right?

We had a kidney kitty Marlin, and hydration was very important. We also gave renal pro supplement (phosphorus binder) and other things...we caught it late in Marlin, unfortunately :( Seems like this may be early for Butters to have good response to treatment :bighug:

Here for you...:bighug:
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Thank you so much Tanya :bighug:. Good point about it being a business, lol. He wouldn't stop harping about it and I was doing my best to just smile and nod.
I'm sorry you caught CKD late in Marlin:bighug:.
I was wondering about phosphorus binder. I read about it on Tanya's CRF. She says low P food as a first choice in the beginning. But it looks like it is going to be a challenge to find a low P and low carb food that Butters will eat and that I'm going to want to give her. Her food and hydration is my biggest hurdle right now.
 
Butters & Lyla said:
Thank you so much Tanya :bighug:. Good point about it being a business, lol. He wouldn't stop harping about it and I was doing my best to just smile and nod.
I'm sorry you caught CKD late in Marlin:bighug:.
I was wondering about phosphorus binder. I read about it on Tanya's CRF. She says low P food as a first choice in the beginning. But it looks like it is going to be a challenge to find a low P and low carb food that Butters will eat and that I'm going to want to give her. Her food and hydration is my biggest hurdle right now.
Click to expand...

Marlin was a beautiful and kind kitty...we miss him a lot!

This is the renal supplement we gave to him, and all our boys actually, for a time. Cosmo received it, until more recently, but we were feeding FF at the time, which has a higher phosphorus level than his food now, so preventative for Cosmo :)

We got really good at sub q fluids with Marlin...but he was far along. I’m not sure what the hydration recommendation would be for Butters currently.


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I believe that @Bellasmom has had to deal with the same issues with Bella in the last year or so...I can't remember exactly.

She has him on low phos food and I believe subq fluids - although don't quote me on that. I'm tagging her in hopes that she'll get an email and will reach out to you.

I'm glad you're seeking out another vet - I read your posts yesterday and this morning...that guy just doesn't have a clue about FD...it's not surprising...

Unfortunately chronic kidney disease is very prevalent among 1)Older kitties and 2)Diabetic kitties...and remember the word 'chronic' doesn't mean it's an illness like we know...it's more like a persistent condition...like chronic osteoarthritis or any number of other chronic processes that persist over a long period of time.

Don't despair...Butters is getting the best of care cause you're her mama bean...she's a lucky girl to own you! :bighug:
 
Wendy&Neko said:
No on the cranberry - see why here and here, probiotics are fine. Butters is stage 2 of CKD, presuming her numbers don't come down if you get her tested again when she's hydrated. Many cats live fine at stage 2 for years. Low protein is not recommended at this stage, lots of food suggestions here. What you want now is good quality protein. Tanya's also has a wet food list. I think at one time I go the analysis of Feline Natural from the manufacturers, but I can't seem to find it in the vault. Their website just lists "typical analysis" of phosphorus, whatever that means. FWIW, of the one food I randomly selected, the phosphorus number was good.

Absolutely nothing. This is enforcement of my vet's recommendation to always get a second test a couple weeks later on a value, to make sure it's really out.

One thing you may want to do at some point is get a blood pressure taken.
Click to expand...
Thank you for those specific links. I'm obviously going to keep clear of cranberry. Probiotic, maybe, I'm not going to do it unless I understand why it will be helpful for her and I don't just yet.

I will add blood pressure to the list of tests I need to get done. I saw that recommended on Tanya's also. There is a tonne of good info there.

I'm down deep in a food rabbit hole. Relieved I don't have to worry about low protein just yet. None of the foods Butters eats right now are near being low protein. All of her foods are on the Tanya's wet foods list, though, so should therefore be good quality protein (by my research they are). But all are at least triple the amount of P Tanya's recommends, according to the list. Is that still okay at this point? I would think too high, since Butters' P is too high.

I am wondering if I should try a P binder? Tanya's says to do lower P food first. But I'm worried I won't be able to find one that both Butters and I approve of, that is both low P and low carb. I'm currently reading about homemade diets on Tanya's. Butters will not eat raw anymore. I could cook for her....

Also, I guess she calculates carbs different than Dr. Pierson, because the carbs are a much higher percentage on Tanya's site. But I checked the mfr site for Ziwi on carbs and it is in line with Dr. Pierson's chart.

I currently feed mainly the first two types of Feline Natural, with the others thrown in for variety. From Tanya's:

Brand and Variety Phos Protein Carbs
Feline Natural New Zealand Chicken & Lamb Feast* 1.54 54.86 na
Feline Natural New Zealand Chicken & Venison Feast* 1.6 51.43 na
Feline Natural New Zealand Lamb & Salmon Feast* 1.53 44.74 na
ZiwiPeak New Zealand Venison 1.35 54 13 (Dr. Pierson 3% carb & 252mg P)
ZiwiPeak New Zealand Beef 1.43 45 16 (Dr. Pierson 10% carb & 298mg P)
ZiwiPeak New Zealand Lamb 1.49 43 16 (Dr. Pierson 6% carb & 254mg P)
 
Hi Lyla,

I am happy you are finding a vet who you can be on the same page with:). One thing I have done is asked to speak with a vet prior to using them. Just simply requesting that and hearing the response often will give you an immediate feel for the practice and the vet. I make sure to say that I’m not trying to do a consult specific to my cat, but instead, I just want to briefly discuss their approach or philosophy of care for wellness and also disease states such as diabetes and CKD and see if it’s a good match. Again, just the response to the request will give you a pretty good sense of what the practice &/or vet is about.

I’ve had a prior cat with CKD and now 2 males that we are watching closely & repeating labs quarterly to make sure we catch any issues early. The urine specific gravity is important and if you are able to get the first urine of the day OR cystocentesis prior to first urine of the day, that will be the most accurate. Both of my male cats have had higher creatinine and SDMA values, however, their USG is really good so that means the kidneys are still concentrating the urine well. They are seen by an IM who is subspecialized in kidney disease and the recommendation is to continue to repeat tests & there is no need for any dietary changes.

As far as diet and phosphorus is concerned one thing that is helpful and will be beneficial moving forward is to know a few things: 1) weight of your cat and 2) are they underweight, ideal or overweight 3) how many calories a day are you currently feeding them? These days the nutritionists base protein, carbs and micronutrients like phosphorus on a per 100kcal basis vs simply what is provided for a can of Food. Reason being is, say for example, your cat needs 200 calories a day. You look up food and find Food A has 1/2 the amount of grams of carbs per 100kcal and 1/2 the amount of mg of phosphorus per 100kcal BUT it is also lower calorie vs Food B which has 2x the amount of carbs and phosphorus BUT is higher calorie. With Food B you end up feeding less than Food A so Food A isn’t necessarily better than Food B.

Again, the only way to do this is to know how much your cat weighs and what you are feeding them calorie wise to sustain that weight (and if they need to Gain or lose weight-will adjust calories). From there you can determine, based on the calories you are actually feeding your cat with respect to protein, carbs, fat and micronutrients like phosphorus.

Tanyas book is available on Amazon (food is listed by Phos level or by brand which is nice along with protein, carbs, fat) and is still a great resource , however it is still important to utilize the weight and calories for your specific cat to be able to know what you are actually feeding in terms of protein and carbs and fat & phosphorus.
 
Sorry to read this about Butters Weruva has a lot of low carb and low phosphorus foods if u go to their website
https://weruva.com/ And look at cat foods u can see nutrition and then open up full nutrition but look at dry matter basis, they have a lot to choose from, pates, some with chunky and some with slithers, cans pouches etc
 
Tomlin said:
Hi Lyla,

I am happy you are finding a vet who you can be on the same page with:). One thing I have done is asked to speak with a vet prior to using them. Just simply requesting that and hearing the response often will give you an immediate feel for the practice and the vet. I make sure to say that I’m not trying to do a consult specific to my cat, but instead, I just want to briefly discuss their approach or philosophy of care for wellness and also disease states such as diabetes and CKD and see if it’s a good match. Again, just the response to the request will give you a pretty good sense of what the practice &/or vet is about.

I’ve had a prior cat with CKD and now 2 males that we are watching closely & repeating labs quarterly to make sure we catch any issues early. The urine specific gravity is important and if you are able to get the first urine of the day OR cystocentesis prior to first urine of the day, that will be the most accurate. Both of my male cats have had higher creatinine and SDMA values, however, their USG is really good so that means the kidneys are still concentrating the urine well. They are seen by an IM who is subspecialized in kidney disease and the recommendation is to continue to repeat tests & there is no need for any dietary changes.

As far as diet and phosphorus is concerned one thing that is helpful and will be beneficial moving forward is to know a few things: 1) weight of your cat and 2) are they underweight, ideal or overweight 3) how many calories a day are you currently feeding them? These days the nutritionists base protein, carbs and micronutrients like phosphorus on a per 100kcal basis vs simply what is provided for a can of Food. Reason being is, say for example, your cat needs 200 calories a day. You look up food and find Food A has 1/2 the amount of grams of carbs per 100kcal and 1/2 the amount of mg of phosphorus per 100kcal BUT it is also lower calorie vs Food B which has 2x the amount of carbs and phosphorus BUT is higher calorie. With Food B you end up feeding less than Food A so Food A isn’t necessarily better than Food B.

Again, the only way to do this is to know how much your cat weighs and what you are feeding them calorie wise to sustain that weight (and if they need to Gain or lose weight-will adjust calories). From there you can determine, based on the calories you are actually feeding your cat with respect to protein, carbs, fat and micronutrients like phosphorus.

Tanyas book is available on Amazon (food is listed by Phos level or by brand which is nice along with protein, carbs, fat) and is still a great resource , however it is still important to utilize the weight and calories for your specific cat to be able to know what you are actually feeding in terms of protein and carbs and fat & phosphorus.
Click to expand...
Thank you! I'm going to make a few calls. I have been using the info post on the board for interviewing.
I have always been very strict with Butters' calorie intake. It has always been 160 calories / day and she always stayed around 10 lbs, or 10.7 lbs at her highest weight ("not the most active cat" is an understatement). She was down to 8.7 lbs on the day she was diagnosed with FD. This week, almost four months since then, her weight is up to 10.8 lbs. Her ideal weight is probably just under 10 lbs. I know I need to get a scale for her. I have no space. My entire tiny living space barely looks like it is inhabited by humans...cat stuff has taken over every surface. lol.

What you are saying makes sense, I think: example: 100 grams of food A and food B are not necessarily equal. One might be more calorie dense and therefore require less of it to meet Butters' caloric needs, so if it is higher in mg P and grams of carbs, I should first to calculate the actual amount of food she requires because she still may end up getting less P and carbs overall from that food.

I have always worried about her heart because of the murmur, and worried about adding too much extra water. I looked on Tanya's site and I see the recommendation is to water down food with 10 tsp water over the day. I have been doing more like 2 tsps of water for every tsp of food, which seems like a lot. And that was before going to the vet. So I've increased now to 1 tbsp of water for every tsp of food. Hopefully that helps.

She is the shiest litter box user I have ever seen, but I'm going to try to catch that morning pee.
 
Bellasmom said:
Sorry to read this about Butters Weruva has a lot of low carb and low phosphorus foods if u go to their website
https://weruva.com/ And look at cat foods u can see nutrition and then open up full nutrition but look at dry matter basis, they have a lot to choose from, pates, some with chunky and some with slithers, cans pouches etc
Click to expand...
Thanks for the recomendation Jamie. I'll have to look into it. Butters prefers not to chew, but doesn't like the texture of pates. What she likes is for there to be very tiny pieces of food in a broth, so I spend a lot of time getting the texture of her food "just right" each day. LOL. I can't be the only one here who does this...right?:facepalm:

Bellasmom said:
Also I recently changed Bella to NomNomNow it’s very low carb and low in phosphorus, it’s made fresh and shipped to my house every month it’s the chicken
https://www.nomnomnow.com/
Click to expand...
I wish I could use this. Sadly, they don't ship to Canada.
 
Sue and Luci said:
I believe that @Bellasmom has had to deal with the same issues with Bella in the last year or so...I can't remember exactly.

She has him on low phos food and I believe subq fluids - although don't quote me on that. I'm tagging her in hopes that she'll get an email and will reach out to you.

I'm glad you're seeking out another vet - I read your posts yesterday and this morning...that guy just doesn't have a clue about FD...it's not surprising...

Unfortunately chronic kidney disease is very prevalent among 1)Older kitties and 2)Diabetic kitties...and remember the word 'chronic' doesn't mean it's an illness like we know...it's more like a persistent condition...like chronic osteoarthritis or any number of other chronic processes that persist over a long period of time.

Don't despair...Butters is getting the best of care cause you're her mama bean...she's a lucky girl to own you! :bighug:
Click to expand...
Butters & Lyla said:
Thanks for the recomendation Jamie. I'll have to look into it. Butters prefers not to chew, but doesn't like the texture of pates. What she likes is for there to be very tiny pieces of food in a broth, so I spend a lot of time getting the texture of her food "just right" each day. LOL. I can't be the only one here who does this...right?:facepalm:


I wish I could use this. Sadly, they don't ship to Canada.
Click to expand...
tiki cat has broths not sure of the phosphorus and I’m sure the carbs are low you might want to call and see what the phosphorus levels are
 
Sue and Luci said:
I believe that @Bellasmom has had to deal with the same issues with Bella in the last year or so...I can't remember exactly.
Butters & Lyla said:
Thanks for the recomendation Jamie. I'll have to look into it. Butters prefers not to chew, but doesn't like the texture of pates. What she likes is for there to be very tiny pieces of food in a broth, so I spend a lot of time getting the texture of her food "just right" each day. LOL. I can't be the only one here who does this...right?:facepalm:


I wish I could use this. Sadly, they don't ship to Canada.
Click to expand...

She has him on low phos food and I believe subq fluids - although don't quote me on that. I'm tagging her in hopes that she'll get an email and will reach out to you.

I'm glad you're seeking out another vet - I read your posts yesterday and this morning...that guy just doesn't have a clue about FD...it's not surprising...

Unfortunately chronic kidney disease is very prevalent among 1)Older kitties and 2)Diabetic kitties...and remember the word 'chronic' doesn't mean it's an illness like we know...it's more like a persistent condition...like chronic osteoarthritis or any number of other chronic processes that persist over a long period of time.

Don't despair...Butters is getting the best of care cause you're her mama bean...she's a lucky girl to own you! :bighug:
Click to expand...
Butters & Lyla said:
Thanks for the recomendation Jamie. I'll have to look into it. Butters prefers not to chew, but doesn't like the texture of pates. What she likes is for there to be very tiny pieces of food in a broth, so I spend a lot of time getting the texture of her food "just right" each day. LOL. I can't be the only one here who does this...right?:facepalm:


I wish I could use this. Sadly, they don't ship to Canada.
Click to expand...
Butters & Lyla said:
Thanks for the recomendation Jamie. I'll have to look into it. Butters prefers not to chew, but doesn't like the texture of pates. What she likes is for there to be very tiny pieces of food in a broth, so I spend a lot of time getting the texture of her food "just right" each day. LOL. I can't be the only one here who does this...right?:facepalm:


I wish I could use this. Sadly, they don't ship to Canada.
Click to expand...
Here is Tiki cat website and look at their broth foods
https://tikipets.com/cat/
 
(I posted this on yesterdays post by mistake)
She was eating a raw diet before her FD dx, but began refusing the raw food right after I started her on insulin


Ravan did the same thing,so I don't think it's a coincidence. Maybe the insulin, somehow changes the taste of the food?

When I first told my vet about testing Ravan several times a day he said I was being cruel to poke his ears so much. He also said going below 150 BG was dangerous! I ignored his comments & after a few months I brought Ravans' Spread Sheet in to show him. He was amazed to see how many times a day I tested & also how much his BG had come down. I explained how Ravan had got used to the routine of poking his ears & came when I called him to be tested.

He did change his opinion of what I was doing. A few weeks later he asked me if he could give a client of his my phone # so I could advise them. I told him I'd be happy to help,& I'd tell them to go to Feline Diabetes .com ! He asked me for a copy of Ravan's spreadsheet so he could show it to his associates.
We got along really good after that. I'm so sad that he retired last March. Over the years I checked out just about every Vet in my area. Right now I have no idea where I'd go if I needed a Vet. My Vet was only 5 mins from my house! Both my cats get very stressed riding in the car . I believe that stress is the worst thing for them & us also!

If your vet continues to disagree with what you're doing maybe you could interview other Vets & show them Butter's SS. Ask them how "they" deal with Feline Diabetes and Kidney disease. You need someone "open Minded" that will at least listen to your ideas.

I read that veterinarians only get a few hours of training in diabetes. They advise using the older insulin,Prescription cat food & that expensive AlphaTrak meter & strips for cats. Very few are up to date with newer methods. That's probably one of the reasons most people Euthanize their kitties. Too expensive bringing them to the vet & for the insulin ,etc !

I don't know what cat food is available in Canada but here are a few I use here. Organix Pate Chicken 4% carbs 182 Phos. Organix Turkey Pate 5% carbs 193 Phos.
Weruva (Truluxe) On the Cat Wok 4% 163Phos Steak Frites 6% 118Phos Meow Me a River 1% 201Phos Soulistic Moist & Tender Turkey Dinner in gravy 6% 178 Phos

You can add some water to the Pate to make it softer. So she won't need to chew. (are her teeth OK?)

One day at a time! It will all be OK :):bighug:

upload_2020-10-9_13-5-32-jpeg.57051
 
Butters & Lyla said:
Thank you! I'm going to make a few calls. I have been using the info post on the board for interviewing.
I have always been very strict with Butters' calorie intake. It has always been 160 calories / day and she always stayed around 10 lbs, or 10.7 lbs at her highest weight ("not the most active cat" is an understatement). She was down to 8.7 lbs on the day she was diagnosed with FD. This week, almost four months since then, her weight is up to 10.8 lbs. Her ideal weight is probably just under 10 lbs. I know I need to get a scale for her. I have no space. My entire tiny living space barely looks like it is inhabited by humans...cat stuff has taken over every surface. lol.

What you are saying makes sense, I think: example: 100 grams of food A and food B are not necessarily equal. One might be more calorie dense and therefore require less of it to meet Butters' caloric needs, so if it is higher in mg P and grams of carbs, I should first to calculate the actual amount of food she requires because she still may end up getting less P and carbs overall from that food.

I have always worried about her heart because of the murmur, and worried about adding too much extra water. I looked on Tanya's site and I see the recommendation is to water down food with 10 tsp water over the day. I have been doing more like 2 tsps of water for every tsp of food, which seems like a lot. And that was before going to the vet. So I've increased now to 1 tbsp of water for every tsp of food. Hopefully that helps.

She is the shiest litter box user I have ever seen, but I'm going to try to catch that morning pee.
Click to expand...

You’ve got it :)....Re: the way to figure out the contents and you are ahead of the game by being aware of weight. I actually initially purchased my scale many years ago because of a cat being diagnosed with CKD. It is now around 10-11 years old and continues to work well. Not heavy and not big. I actually keep it in a closet (just lean it against the wall) so it doesn’t take up much space. If you change your mind it is available on Amazon. It’s the
W.C Redmon Precision Digital Pet Scale, Small for $55.90

The other helpful item, also available on Amazon, is Tanyas Cat Food Data book by Helen Fitzsimmons. It lists the food by phosphorus content from lowest to highest or you can look by brand name, wet or dry,
Therapeutic or non therpeutic. It also lists the protein, fat, carbs, sodium, calories and date the info was obtained—really, really nice. I suggested a friend take some highlighter markers and based on needs, mark ones to try and if carbs are a focus, color the carb block green for in the zone, yellow for ok, pink for high. Again, just help “see” things more easily when it comes to whatever are important for your cat besides phosphorus :p



 
Bellasmom said:
Here is Tiki cat website and look at their broth foods
https://tikipets.com/cat/
Click to expand...
Thank you :bighug:

JoyBee&Ravan said:
(I posted this on yesterdays post by mistake)
She was eating a raw diet before her FD dx, but began refusing the raw food right after I started her on insulin


Ravan did the same thing,so I don't think it's a coincidence. Maybe the insulin, somehow changes the taste of the food?

When I first told my vet about testing Ravan several times a day he said I was being cruel to poke his ears so much. He also said going below 150 BG was dangerous! I ignored his comments & after a few months I brought Ravans' Spread Sheet in to show him. He was amazed to see how many times a day I tested & also how much his BG had come down. I explained how Ravan had got used to the routine of poking his ears & came when I called him to be tested.

He did change his opinion of what I was doing. A few weeks later he asked me if he could give a client of his my phone # so I could advise them. I told him I'd be happy to help,& I'd tell them to go to Feline Diabetes .com ! He asked me for a copy of Ravan's spreadsheet so he could show it to his associates.
We got along really good after that. I'm so sad that he retired last March. Over the years I checked out just about every Vet in my area. Right now I have no idea where I'd go if I needed a Vet. My Vet was only 5 mins from my house! Both my cats get very stressed riding in the car . I believe that stress is the worst thing for them & us also!

If your vet continues to disagree with what you're doing maybe you could interview other Vets & show them Butter's SS. Ask them how "they" deal with Feline Diabetes and Kidney disease. You need someone "open Minded" that will at least listen to your ideas.

I read that veterinarians only get a few hours of training in diabetes. They advise using the older insulin,Prescription cat food & that expensive AlphaTrak meter & strips for cats. Very few are up to date with newer methods. That's probably one of the reasons most people Euthanize their kitties. Too expensive bringing them to the vet & for the insulin ,etc !

I don't know what cat food is available in Canada but here are a few I use here. Organix Pate Chicken 4% carbs 182 Phos. Organix Turkey Pate 5% carbs 193 Phos.
Weruva (Truluxe) On the Cat Wok 4% 163Phos Steak Frites 6% 118Phos Meow Me a River 1% 201Phos Soulistic Moist & Tender Turkey Dinner in gravy 6% 178 Phos

You can add some water to the Pate to make it softer. So she won't need to chew. (are her teeth OK?)

One day at a time! It will all be OK :):bighug:
Click to expand...
Thank you :bighug: It feels overwhelming having this to deal with on top of FD right now. I feel so guilty that she has probably not been feeling well and I've not known so I want to help her as much as I can. Every time I read something on Tanya's crf, I have questions and click links and the info is endless there. It's good info, though.

I do find it interesting that Tanya's builds such a strong case for feeding a therapeutic diet.
We have Weruva in my part of Canada, and the Tiki cat that Bellasmom also suggested looking at. Hopefully I can find the lower P ones. The P seems like what I should try to change right away, I think. I'm going to at least start incorporating a few lower P foods that are also LC into her diet. Then I'll feel like I'm doing something while I continue to read and learn.
FD is definitely expensive. That's so sad. :(
I agree with you that stress is the worst thing for our kitties and ourselves. Her vet is a three minute drive from me because she also gets super stressed going on a car ride. But the vet is not good as you've heard and so even with my phone vet who seems good and will put together a care plan with my input and review all her test results, I still need a clinic and vet I can take her to.

Her teeth? They are good as far as I can tell.:) She gets them cleaned every 18-24 months and checked regularly. She hasn't required any extractions other than a tooth she half knocked out when she ran up the stairs last year. She just hates to use them. If I give her cubes of meat, she sucks them dry and leaves them on the plate.
 
At a point where there needs to be decreased protein and decreased phosphorus it often becomes more difficult to find food without making a homemade diet and that’s most often where those Rx diets come into play. In the meantime, if it’s only phosphorus you have to manage earlier in the disease state vs protein as well, you have the ability to find lower Phos foods or use the binders so you can continue to feed a healthy, high quality protein diet :). Unfortunately, the Rx diets often get recommended much earlier in the process than needed which isn’t great due to the lower protein.
 
Nice surfing today. I'm sorry about the CKD diagnosis, but it's good you caught it early. You can do things to help her. She is lucky to have someone so caring that will look out for her needs. :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Whenever I could take work breaks I spent time on Tanya's crf.:bookworm: Wow. I just got schooled big time in what a "high quality protein" diet means in the context of a ckd cat. :facepalm: Not what I thought it meant. So in trying to figure out what to feed Butters immediately, I managed to find some weruva steak frites and la isla bonita, which, according to Dr. Pierson's food chart, meet the requirement for low carb and quite low P for a non-therapeutic diet. My local store has very little in stock and wants me to order a whole case of most everything else. :(

JoyBee&Ravan said:
When I make the raw diet I "mince" the meat so they really don't need to chew it! It takes a long time to mince a few pounds of chicken :(. Love my Kitties!
Click to expand...
You're the best mom! So did Ravan start accepting raw again since refusing it when he started insulin? I used to think Butters' refusal of raw the day she started insulin was just a coincidence but it's weird that it happened with Ravan, too.


Tomlin said:
At a point where there needs to be decreased protein and decreased phosphorus it often becomes more difficult to find food without making a homemade diet and that’s most often where those Rx diets come into play. In the meantime, if it’s only phosphorus you have to manage earlier in the disease state vs protein as well, you have the ability to find lower Phos foods or use the binders so you can continue to feed a healthy, high quality protein diet :). Unfortunately, the Rx diets often get recommended much earlier in the process than needed which isn’t great due to the lower protein.
Click to expand...
I would consider making a homemade diet. I think it would have to be a cooked one (she won't eat raw anymore), and I'm very wary of not putting in the right supplements that she needs now with both CKD and FD. I see that Tanya's has links to some places for recipes. I haven't explored that yet. But if either of you have other ones that you recommend besides that, I'd love to know.
Tanya's says to use binders as a second choice after low P foods. I haven't figured out why, yet. But I'm thinking the easiest thing is sprinkle some on her current food and call it a day. It sounds too easy.
Thanks for the scale recommendation, and the book. At some point soon I will just buy both.
 
When Neko was diagnosed as a diabetic, I took the opportunity to try her on a raw diet. Actually, my civvie's vet suggested it as a food both he (idiopathic cystitis) and she could eat as Neko loved bowl clean up duty. When I introduced the first raw, Neko's response was "what took you so long, nom nom nom". Later when she got her CKD diagnosis, I switched out some of the proteins that had ground bone and higher phosphorus for home made with premixes made with egg shell calcium, and very low phosphorus. In Canada, you can get TC Feline Special formula for CKD kitties or order EZComplete from FoodFurLife. I just used ground meat from the exotic meat butcher near me. You can cook with EZComplete.

Meat broths are generally high in P.

Butters & Lyla said:
I have always worried about her heart because of the murmur, and worried about adding too much extra water.
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Adding water to food is fine. When Neko added heart conditions to her resume, we could no longer do fluids so had to do extra watery food. It's a little early for fluids for Butters yet anyway.
 
Butters & Lyla said:
weruva steak frites
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Steak frites is expensive. Just buy a can or two to try. Rover only licked the watery sauce.

Kidney disease is a huge learning experience. There is so much to take in. Much more complicated than FD. Take your time.

This is an FDMB list of foods under 10% with low phos from 2017. It may be slightly out-of-date.
Wild Calling is no more. It went bankrupt and was bought out by another company that then went bankrupt.

Aluminum hydroxide powder for when the phos #s cannot be controlled by diet alone. The gel from the vet usually has sugar in it. A couple of ounces of the powder will last you a very long time and it does not expire. You'll also need a 1/8 tsp measuring spoon. thrivingpets.com

Canadian stuff:
You do not need a prescription to order needles/admin kits/subq fluids.
I once needed a bag of emergency fluids. My vet said they were only sold as part of a "kit" – a white plastic bag. I was charged over $25 for what would have cost me less that $10.

https://www.petsdrugmart.ca/ has fast delivery. They have fluids, admin kits, and needles.
You want the Terumo ultra thin walled needles (petsdrugmart does not specific ultra thin wall but they would do in a pinch until you could order some from elsewhere). Terumo ultra thin allows you to use a small gauge needle and still get the same rate of flow as a larger needle. The bevel on the needle should be facing up. Do not settle for BD needles.

You could also try lifesupply.ca or surgo.com – one of these wanted my bank information (as if I was a huge company).
 
Butters & Lyla said:
Thank you, Diane :bighug::bighug::bighug:. From the bottom of my heart. I know how much you are struggling right now after losing your heart kitty Perry to the same disease Butters now has. :( I don't know what else to say but thank you for helping us even while you mourn Perry. You are an angel.
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Thank you Lyla , if I can help in any way , I'm here for you and Butters♥♥
 
Wendy&Neko said:
When Neko was diagnosed as a diabetic, I took the opportunity to try her on a raw diet. Actually, my civvie's vet suggested it as a food both he (idiopathic cystitis) and she could eat as Neko loved bowl clean up duty. When I introduced the first raw, Neko's response was "what took you so long, nom nom nom". Later when she got her CKD diagnosis, I switched out some of the proteins that had ground bone and higher phosphorus for home made with premixes made with egg shell calcium, and very low phosphorus. In Canada, you can get TC Feline Special formula for CKD kitties or order EZComplete from FoodFurLife. I just used ground meat from the exotic meat butcher near me. You can cook with EZComplete.

Meat broths are generally high in P.


Adding water to food is fine. When Neko added heart conditions to her resume, we could no longer do fluids so had to do extra watery food. It's a little early for fluids for Butters yet anyway.
Click to expand...
LOL. Bowl clean up duty is the best job ever!
Thank you for these recommendations. I am planning to go the homemade route and I really like the look of the TC Feline Special formula. I reached out to them to see if I could use it with homemade cooked meat while I try to get her back onto raw. If not, I'll start with EZComplete and cooked food.
Would I also need to use a phosphorus binder with a homemade diet with a premix, at this point?

Butters has been very twitchy or almost tremor-like, off and on all afternoon and continuing this evening. I have noticed this occasionally over the past few months, probably since just after her FD dx in May. I had even mentioned it to her vet previously, who just seemed confused and said it was probably nothing. Now I see on the CKD website that twitching can be a symptom of high phosphorus levels, as can a plantigrade posture, which she also had/still has but not as bad. Ugh. But the latter could be the diabetic neuropathy that the vet diagnosed along with FD. But I wonder If these are signs of a higher P level. I feel awful for her. I'm thinking I should get a P binder and use some of that with the lower P canned food I bought, until I get set up making her homemade food.
 
I was lucky, my vet had the Aluminum Hydroxide Powder at her
practice and the syringes
I even got the fluids from her for 14.00 and that included the needles
Your vet would have to tell you how much binder to use
Perry was getting 1/8 of a teaspoon twice a day
The one I was using had 125 mgs in an 1/8 of a teaspoon
So he was getting 250 mgs a day
You have to put it in every meal they eat
Since Perry would only eat the Dry Hills K/D I would measure out 2 cups of his food
and put a cup in each zip lock bag then put 1/8of a teaspoon in each bag

The binder my vet had was from Rx Vitamins 35 gm container
Cost me 30.00 and I still have a half jar left
No need for it anymore so will throw it out
Your vet would tell you how much to use if the time ever comes that
Molly would need it
It would depend on how high the phosphorus number was.
What was Molly number
 
Butters & Lyla said:
Would I also need to use a phosphorus binder with a homemade diet with a premix, at this point?
Click to expand...
I would try the lower P foods, and get blood work after you've done it a while to see what the impact is. Has the vet talked about repeat b/w at some time? Same civvie that had the SDMA drop has had her P drop over time. Has the vet talked about starting binder? Agreed with Kel about the Aluminum hydroxide. Even Neko's IM vet hinted a lot of kitties don't like the taste of the gel.
 
Red & Rover (GA) said:
Steak frites is expensive. Just buy a can or two to try. Rover only licked the watery sauce.

Kidney disease is a huge learning experience. There is so much to take in. Much more complicated than FD. Take your time.
Click to expand...
I bought just two tins, thankfully. Is it possible they changed the formula? I was taken aback by the amount of potato in it. More of a gravy than a sauce in the can. If Butters wasn't showing signs of having an active cycle, I would not have fed it. I'll see what her number is in an hour. I gave one tsp, which she ate after much cajoling.

I am feeling completely overwhelmed and sad. I hate to take my time, though. Especially now that I know her P has been high since at least May and the vet never said anything. And I never thought to try to look into what her lab results could mean.

Thank you for the link to the food list of both under 10% carbs and under 1% P. So handy to have it right now.

Red & Rover (GA) said:
Aluminum hydroxide powder for when the phos #s cannot be controlled by diet alone. The gel from the vet usually has sugar in it. A couple of ounces of the powder will last you a very long time and it does not expire. You'll also need a 1/8 tsp measuring spoon. thrivingpets.com

Canadian stuff:
You do not need a prescription to order needles/admin kits/subq fluids.
I once needed a bag of emergency fluids. My vet said they were only sold as part of a "kit" – a white plastic bag. I was charged over $25 for what would have cost me less that $10.

https://www.petsdrugmart.ca/ has fast delivery. They have fluids, admin kits, and needles.
You want the Terumo ultra thin walled needles (petsdrugmart does not specific ultra thin wall but they would do in a pinch until you could order some from elsewhere). Terumo ultra thin allows you to use a small gauge needle and still get the same rate of flow as a larger needle. The bevel on the needle should be facing up. Do not settle for BD needles.

You could also try lifesupply.ca or surgo.com – one of these wanted my bank information (as if I was a huge company).
Click to expand...
Thank you for all of this.:bighug: The Canadian links are super helpful.
The BD insulin needles are bad enough to deal with.
I feel a lot less overwhelmed with the support and recommendations. I am bookmarking this info. It is inevitable that I will need it at some point.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I would try the lower P foods, and get blood work after you've done it a while to see what the impact is. Has the vet talked about repeat b/w at some time? Same civvie that had the SDMA drop has had her P drop over time. Has the vet talked about starting binder? Agreed with Kel about the Aluminum hydroxide. Even Neko's IM vet hinted a lot of kitties don't like the taste of the gel.
Click to expand...
No he didn't talk about starting binder or about feeding lower P foods. He didn't even check her P level when he did blood work this week.
He wanted me to give her a probiotic, cranberry, lower her insulin dose by 50%, and put her on a low protein prescription kidney diet. :( That's what he wants me to do. And then bring her back in a month for follow up blood work. He made it sound like I should not bring her back in until I had at least lowered her insulin and put her on a prescription diet.

Instead, I am trying to get her on lower P foods and add even more fluids to her meals (she is annoyed with this)...and find a new vet clinic. I have arranged for a call on Tuesday with one clinic for an interview, and I have left a message for the vet I know who only works by phone because of COVID. My hope is to have an appointment somewhere else within two weeks for a full senior panel blood workup plus cover kidney stuff if the senior panel doesn't, blood pressure, heart xray, and hopefully bring them a morning pee sample.
 
I tried two different types of weruva LC low P foods and she didn't want to eat either of them with water mixed in.
I think this is why I'm wondering if using a P binder in her regular food is okay to do for a little while, and maybe feed some low P food and some of her normal food with binder in it...until I can switch and get her to accept a homemade diet.
 
Admin sets are cheaper if you order from the US. But then you have to possibly pay higher shipping costs and who knows what the mail will be like a few weeks from now.

IV admin lines – you want a long line. Cats have a tendency to try to walk away or run off at a full gallop. Be prepared to have the occasional spray of fluids when the cat takes off and the needle comes out. Not a big deal. Just don't give fluids on your pillow or your grandmother's special tablecloth. A six foot line may not be long enough depending on where and how high you hang the bag. I used one of the shower curtain rings in the bathroom.

Terumo needles – either 20g or 22g or both depending on how long you think Butters will stay still. If I remember correctly, Terumo 20g is equivalent in flow to an 18g needle. Terumo 22g = 20g.

A small pair of pliers. Sometimes the needle is hard to unscrew.
 
@Diane Tyler's Mom Butters' phosphorus number is 4.9 in US numbers.

My grandmother's special tablecloth is in a rubbermaid bin in storage in my garage. Safe from the spray of subq fluids.

I tried feeding her three different kinds of lower P food tonight. One she refused outright. One she ate one tsp. The other she at 2.5 tsps. But refused them if I mixed any water into them. :confused:
I have Almo Nature cans...just shredded chicken/tuna/mackerel and water. Not a complete food. I opened a chicken one (how much P could possibly be in there) and she ate a bit of that. But again, wouldn't eat it if I mixed water into it. She normally loves these. I believe that she is not feeling well.
I think i have to get some binder and follow the dosing instructions on Tanya's site. She obviously needs to eat. If I have to bring up her BG, then I really need to get her to eat.
She is hiding now.
I am going to sleep feeling rather defeated.
 
By the way, you probably don't need to think about fluids just yet. Neko went a couple years of CKD before we had to start them. Of course ECID, but don't try to think about everything you might have to do sometime in the future until you need to. Tanya's site can be overwhelming, take it in small bites.
 
Hi Lyla, I am dealing with this too right now as Simon's CKD has recently gotten worse. If you find a good recipe for home made could you share it with me? I am leaning that way as we don't have alot of options where I live as far as canned food. Tanya's site is totally overwhelming me! Sorry about Butters but its looks like you caught this vey early. I also read that the twitching thing could be low potassium- but I think Butters numbers were fine? Anyway, best of luck to you!
 
Butters & Lyla said:
@Diane Tyler's Mom Butters' phosphorus number is 4.9 in US numbers.

My grandmother's special tablecloth is in a rubbermaid bin in storage in my garage. Safe from the spray of subq fluids.

I tried feeding her three different kinds of lower P food tonight. One she refused outright. One she ate one tsp. The other she at 2.5 tsps. But refused them if I mixed any water into them. :confused:
I have Almo Nature cans...just shredded chicken/tuna/mackerel and water. Not a complete food. I opened a chicken one (how much P could possibly be in there) and she ate a bit of that. But again, wouldn't eat it if I mixed water into it. She normally loves these. I believe that she is not feeling well.
I think i have to get some binder and follow the dosing instructions on Tanya's site. She obviously needs to eat. If I have to bring up her BG, then I really need to get her to eat.
She is hiding now.
I am going to sleep feeling rather defeated.
Click to expand...
Hi Lyla I'm sorry just seeing this, I was so exhausted last night
This is the reference range for the phopherous 2.4-8.2mg/dl
The lab it was sent to was ZN Labs Veterinary Diagnostics and some were from
Anttoo♥♥
iagnostics
Did you try the Weruva foods?
Like I said Perry would only eat the K/D dry and some of the Weruva
I'm so sorry you have to deal with this too♥♥
Keep me posted please!:bighug::bighug:
 
Butters & Lyla said:
@Diane Tyler's Mom Butters' phosphorus number is 4.9 in US numbers.

My grandmother's special tablecloth is in a rubbermaid bin in storage in my garage. Safe from the spray of subq fluids.

I tried feeding her three different kinds of lower P food tonight. One she refused outright. One she ate one tsp. The other she at 2.5 tsps. But refused them if I mixed any water into them. :confused:
I have Almo Nature cans...just shredded chicken/tuna/mackerel and water. Not a complete food. I opened a chicken one (how much P could possibly be in there) and she ate a bit of that. But again, wouldn't eat it if I mixed water into it. She normally loves these. I believe that she is not feeling well.
I think i have to get some binder and follow the dosing instructions on Tanya's site. She obviously needs to eat. If I have to bring up her BG, then I really need to get her to eat.
She is hiding now.
I am going to sleep feeling rather defeated.
Click to expand...


What are the Phosphorus levels please ?
Almo Nature is formulated without any integration of artificial additives, therefore the content of minerals, vitamins and amino acids are naturally contained in the raw material used before cooking. They do not test for phosphorous as their recipes are intended for healthy pets and not those with s pecific dietary needs. It's recommended to consult your vet to see if this would be a fit for your pet's current dietary plan.

By on Jul 30, 2019
 

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