12/29 Noodle AMPS 252 Confused. Should I raise dose again?

Discussion in 'Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)' started by Christianna, Dec 29, 2014.

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  1. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Noodle had a dental on 12/19 and all went well, with only one extraction. He was given ABs which he took without any apparent problem. In looking at my SS, it seems like his numbers were better BEFORE the dental, which I just don't get and his BGs were better on 3.25U. He has been raised twice, and is now up to 3.75U. He developed trace ketones for a day and neg-trace twice more since the dental. He is eating fine and I water his food heavily. I had hoped that like many others on the forum, I would see a lowering of his BGs post-dental but the opposite is happening. He just seems to be stuck, stuck, stuck in the mid-upper 200s when a couple of weeks ago we at least saw a 205, a 212, etc. Can someone look at my SS and tell me what you think and if I'm just supposed to keep raising him. The vet wants me to take him up to 4U tomorrow but I can't be home to monitor tomorrow so will raise him on Wed. if forum members advise me to. Thanks so much. I am getting discouraged again so could really use advice :-(

    Christi
     
  2. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    Dec 28, 2009
    To be honest, I don't see any change in numbers from before the 19th to now. If anything, there were more pinks early on and now, Noodles' numbers are in the 200s. I know you have some limitations as to when you're comfortable raising the dose but there's always the possibility that raising the dose every 3 days may help to move Noodles into the blues.
     
  3. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Thanks, Sienne and Gabby. I had intended to raise the dose tomorrow but have to be gone all day for medical (human.) As high as Noodle's numbers are there is probably no chance that raising him .25U would pose any danger but I'd just feel better monitoring. 4U just sounds like a lot to me and I can't understand the ketone development when he went for weeks with none on a lower dose. Nor do I understand the dental having no positive impact as he had bad gingivitis. S-I-G-H. I'm just wondering if he'll ever get there :-( Thanks for your thoughts.

    Christi
     
  4. tibbs5

    tibbs5 Well-Known Member

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    Jul 15, 2014
    hi Christi
    i think my boy & yours are playing by the same play book :(
    we just need to hit that break through dose. i thought i had but i guess not yet. i would be the same as you and raise him when i could monitor him. i hope he breaks through soon Christi. i'm keeping fingers & paws crossed for you.
    :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  5. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Thanks so much, Nadine. I worry so much about the months and months that Noodle is above the renal threshold--that can't be good for him and Tibbs. Odd thing is, Noodle actually seems to feel better on 3-3.25U but his numbers sure don't reflect it. I hope Tibbs breaks through soon too. At least you see some blues with him occasionally. I think Noodle has had maybe 2 or 3 blues in the whole 6 months :-( Paws crossed that Tibbs and Noodle will have a blue New Year! Thanks for helping with your encouraging words. Today has been one of those days...

    Christi
     
  6. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    What antibiotic was he put on, Christi?

    Punkin had the same thing happen after his last dental and it turned out that he had an infection in his mouth. Some antibiotics are better for dentals than others - Clindamycin is one that works on anaerobic bacteria, which is what's found in oral cavities. It can cause diarrhea though. Is he having any diarrhea?

    I'd probably have the vet recheck his mouth, just in case. When you say he had an extraction + bad gingivitis, I would have expected the dental to bring down his BGs. It is possible he needs a little longer to heal, but seems to me like his BGs should be coming down if there wasn't any infection.

    Are you familiar with Glucose Toxicity? http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/feline-diabetes-and-glucose-toxicity-links.62944/ When a cat is kept in numbers that are out of the normal range (50-120 human glucometer) they develop a tolerance to that range and then it takes even more insulin to budge their blood sugar. I wonder if he's got some of that going on. That may very well be why he feels better with his blood sugar higher.

    I think it must be somewhat like the way I feel when I don't get my morning caffeine. It might be more natural for me to be without it, but I feel like crap without it. Cats are meant to have lower blood sugar, but when they get used to having it be high, they look like a person without caffeine when their blood sugar gets into normal numbers. Punkin definitely acted like that too. The more they get used to the normal numbers, the more they accept it as normal.

    Having had a high dose cat, one of the most important lessons I have learned is that the size of the dose is almost unimportant. The important numbers are his blood sugar - you want to give him what he needs, regardless of the size of the dose.
     
  7. tibbs5

    tibbs5 Well-Known Member

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    Jul 15, 2014
    this is the picture i wanted to post in reponse to your 10 below zero weather. lol
    (so sorry you're having "one of those days" Christi. Sending you hugs. i hope tomorrow is better:bighug:
     

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  8. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Hi Julie,
    Noodle was put on an AB named Simplicef. He tolerated it ok for the first few days but then developed diarrhea and the vet said to stop it. He then was given Metronidazole for the diarrhea, which seems to have resolved. I forgot to mention that he had a follow-up with the vet today and she said everything looks fine (as far as she could see--I wonder how much that actually is. Noodle is a pro at clamping his jaws shut.) At first I attributed Noodle's tiredness to the dental and all the stress, plus the AB but it is persisting. He actually seems to feel best right before he gets his next shot (?) He's only been on the Lev. for 5 weeks so I'm still "feeling my way" as to nadirs, etc. He never drops more than 20-30 points at most, no matter when I test him.
    I went and read through the thread on glucose toxicity and I believe that is his situation. I could really relate to your caffeine analogy :) I'm so sensitive to caffeine that if I miss my morning cuppa I get a screaming headache within a few hours and it goes away instantly when I drink some strong tea.
    I guess I will just keep raising and hope we can break through his glucose toxicity. My vet says he is stubborn and I agree :)
    Thanks so much for your help and for the link.

    Christi
     
  9. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Nadine,
    Loved the picture!! It's perfect and says it all :)
    Thanks for the chuckle and the wish for a better tomorrow. I hope it is good for you too , with good news for Tibbs.

    Christi
     
  10. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    sure! Nobody wants to see a dose increase, but it really was a breakthrough for me to have my focus re-set onto punkin's BGs and not on the dose. I know of high dose cats that have gotten over 100u per shot . . . i was glad punkin "only" got to 15.5u per shot. :rolleyes:

    Now doesn't 4u sound positively teeny?! LOL;) (is that a wink?) hahaha
     
  11. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Julie,
    Well...when you put it that way...:cat: I guess 4U isn't that terrible. I should get away from comparing Noodle to the cats that do great on half a unit. I remember ECID :) I started the 4U with this morning's dose because DH had a vacation day and could be home to monitor when I couldn't. But Noodle is still stubbornly flat. I can't get used to his highs and lows being usually only 10-20 points apart. I keep expecting these big drops like I see on other SS but maybe Lev doesn't work that way o_O Thanks for your help. :)

    Christi
     
  12. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    I wouldn't compare to other cats, Christi. You just want to focus on giving him what he needs. His ss does remind me of punkin's early on with all those yellows. I'm glad you increased his dose this morning to 4.0u. Remember it can take a couple of days to see what a dose does, and some cats also get New Dose Wonkiness. I would give him 6 cycles on this dose and then increase another 0.25u. That's from the TR guidelines, but given as much as you can test I wouldn't hesitate to follow these so that you can get him out of these solid yellows.

    It often seems like you increase the dose and nothing happens and you increase and nothing happens and repeat ad nauseum until BOOM, you finally get to the point where you start seeing action. It would be logical that each time you increase BGs would come down a little, but it doesn't seem to work that way most of the time until you're pretty close to the right dose.

    Increasing the dose:
    • Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
      • if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.
      • when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.
    • After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.
    • After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.

    How's his appetite, Christi? Is he big for a cat? and what does he weigh? does he snore?
     
  13. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Julie,
    Thanks so much for the helpful guidelines you sent.
    To answer your questions, Noodle weighed 13.6 Lbs. before he was diagnosed (before we knew he had diabetes.) He dropped to 10.4 pounds when he had DKA, hepatic lipidosis and pancreatitis and the diabetes was discovered. After he was nursed back to health from the DKA and HL, and began insulin, he began slowly putting the weight back on. He now weighs 13 pounds. When he was under 3U of insulin he was ravenous and would eat about 12-13 ounces of canned food per day. At that time, the vet advice I was given was to let him have that much because, being unregulated, he had a bigger calorie need. Was that good advice? Since he has been on 3.5-3.75 units, his appetite has leveled off some but he still eats robustly, about 10 ounces per day. My civvie Maggie weighs about 12.5 pounds but only eats about 7 ounces a day, so Noodle is eating considerably more than my "normal" cat. No, Noodle doesn't really snore, at least not any more than any cat I've ever had. May I ask why you wondered about snoring? Just wondering...
    Thanks for your encouragement and advice. I really appreciate the help!

    Christi
     
  14. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    May 30, 2010
    Hi Christy

    Julie asked about snoring because some "high dose" cats snore or have a different kind of purr.

    In regard to letting a diabetic cat eat as much as he wants, you might find this post helpful on Feed Kitty As Much as They Want.

    I also wanted to share with you Max's SS.

    Notice how high Max had to go in dose before he hit his fitting dose. While it is difficult to do, it's a good thing to not get attached to a dose but just keep following the protocol up the dosing ladder and hope he will hit that great dose soon.
     
  15. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    I'm always full of questions! ;) Just seeing if he has any symptoms of acromegaly - snoring is one of the most common. Doesn't sound like it's there, though.

    You're doing great, Christi - just keep plugging. :bighug:
     
  16. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    Feb 28, 2012
    I noticed your comment about Noodle was feeling good at higher numbers. For the longest time, I could tell when Neko was in the low 300's, cause that's when she was feeling good and she'd head over to her toys and start playing. :rolleyes: Now, thank goodness, it's the low 100's. As Julie says, just keep plugging, and you'll get there.
     
  17. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Marje and Gracie,
    Thanks so much for sending Max's SS. yes, I see what you mean about having to keep going up and up until he finally broke through. Your experience gives me hope :)
    Thanks too for the link about letting a diabetic cat eat all he wants. I was certainly glad to see Noodle regain his lost weight and muscle mass but it would be awfully easy for him to become too fluffy, especially if the appetite center in the brain is not getting the right message. It's like walking a tightrope. Since he's been between 3.75-4U he is not as obsessed with food. He was absolutely ravenous at 3-3.5 and I used to dread going into the kitchen because he would come from anywhere in the house and beg so pitifully for food. I caved in pretty much all the time. It was running into some big bucks too, as I really could not fill him up. I'm really hoping his BGs come down soon. I don't understand their stubbornness because he seems to feel great otherwise and the 5Ps are all good.
    Thanks so much for your help. I'm trying to hang in there :)

    Christi
     
  18. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Wendy and Neko,
    That's exactly how Noodle is. I just tested him and his PMPS was 302, yet he's down in the basement patrolling one of the walls because I think he hears a mouse scratching. He seems to feel great and all his signs are really good EXCEPT those darn numbers. I have begun to wonder if he might turn out to be a high dose cat. I'm still confused because his BG numbers were lower at 3.25 BUT he was eating ravenously and peeing more. I don't know what to think sometimes but do very much appreciate your help and will just keep plugging:) Give Neko a loving pat for me.

    Christi
     
  19. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Julie,
    Now I understand the snoring question :) Noodle does snore occasionally but very lightly and just like my other cats always have. But I wonder sometimes if he might turn out to be a high dose cat. He just went up to 4U and his numbers are rising. I don't understand it because he seems better than ever in all the other ways. I hope with every dose increase that it will be THE ONE, but we're not there yet :-( Thanks so much for your advice and encouragement!

    Christi
     
  20. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    May 30, 2010
    Christi

    You're welcome for the info. If you can grab at least a before bed test tonight so we can make sure he's not coming down and bouncing back up, and if he stays pink/yellow tonight, I'd raise his dose to 4.25u in the morning. The reason a test during each cycle is helpful is because some cats will come down and go right back up. If we don't have an inkling that they've done that, we keep raising the dose. No need for you to get up tonight but if it's possible to just test before you hit the sack, then you'll know if it's safe to raise tomorrow.

    Just hang in there! You're doing great staying on the increases.
     
  21. Sandy and Black Kitty

    Sandy and Black Kitty Well-Known Member

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    Dec 31, 2009
    Hi there :cool:

    I understand today that a kitty needs as much insulin as he needs, but there was a time, early on in our journey I didn't

    I remember how I hated being the CG whose kitty had the highest dose in LL (class of 2008-2009) No one could figure out why he was such a big gulper. It seemed he had taken up permanent residence on the '3rd floor' (300s)
    It was six months before he saw green and it lasted all of 3 hours . The daily dose at the time was some 27u (combined Lantus and R) He did not see green again for another 6 or so weeks. Below is a graph that covers the entire 21 month journey, showing the average daily insulin use for each month. Feb-Oct 2008 was not easy...up and up and up

    BK insulin graph (640x359).jpg
    Meanwhile all around me kitties were having PJ parties, getting regulated and it seemed every time I turned around there was an OTJ party.
    Trying to get BK into safe numbers and keeping him there was our struggle. . . I entertained no thought of it ever being better.


    We eventually had him tested for two high dose conditions- Acromegaly and Cushings.
    Everyone in the know at that time suspected Acro and were doing their best to get me mentally and emotionally prepared. Both tests came back negative. Now what?


    There was one more possibility, although no kitty here had ever tested for it - Insulin Auto Antibodies aka IAA.
    I had him tested and the result was a very strong positive - extreme insulin resistance.
    So we had a reason -
    What we didn't have was the benefit of following in any ones footsteps.
    We were in uncharted territory. . .without so much as a compass.


    A whole lot more happened along the way but the bottom line is that although it took 21 months (and a whole lotta work), the last cat anyone imagined would go to the falls did just that.
    It just goes to show, you never know :cool:
     
    MollynSkooter likes this.
  22. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Sandy and Black Kitty,
    Well, you have expressed so many of the feelings I've been having, like all the other kitties having PJ parties, getting regulated, doing well on a fraction of Noodle's dose, etc. Right now, it's hard for me to imagine it ever getting better or Noodle being regulated, much less OTJ. I guess I'm a wimp. Look at all you went through, for 21 months and up to 27U and here I am, discouraged at 4U and 7 months in. Guess I've got a ways to go. I do appreciate your telling me your story--it at least gives me hope that maybe we will reach a breakthrough dose eventually. Noodle has not has one green and only a handful of blues. But at least he has many more yellows now than pinks. I guess I just keep plugging away. Thank you for your help and advice--you always make me feel better :)

    Christi
     
  23. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    Feb 28, 2012
    (((Christi))) Lot's of us here have shared the same feelings. :bighug: Neko didn't stop getting the odd black preshots until she got over 7 units.:rolleyes: I never thought I'd get to the point where I am - now I grumble when I see a high yellow on 2 units. Noodle is seeing a lot more yellow now and a lot less pink - that's a good sign of progress. Keep on trucking with the increases, and soon enough he'll be seeing more blue, less yellow.
     
  24. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    How's Noodle doing on the 4.25u dose? Just wanted to check in on him and see if you were seeing more yellows and maybe even some blues yet. With kitties staying flat and high it's a good idea not to linger too long on a dose - 6 cycles if the nadirs are all over 200. If you stay too long on the dose they develop a tolerance for the combination of those high numbers/that insulin dose.

    Hope he's doing well! Just keep plugging and you'll get there. It's possible he's got a high dose condition, as you suggested, or it's possible he's just developed glucose toxicity and needs some faster increases to get on top of his high numbers.

     
  25. MollynSkooter

    MollynSkooter Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2014
    {{{Christi}}}

    Oh the nights I spent being frustrated that people who joined at the same time as me and Skoots and some even after were celebrating their OTJ....I just kept thinking, but we were here before so we should be OTJ before them....

    We got up to 5 or 5.5 units.....luckily changing his diet did wonders....he then started to slide right down the dosing ladder and felt that OTJ would soon be ours!

    Alas, we have been hanging at .25 for the longest time...patience is so not a virtue I possess, especially when it comes to this sugar dance....

    When it comes down to it, you are doing everthing you should be, but the darn cat is in charge...and of course they never take the time to read the materials on here about what they are supposed to be doing. ;)

    I hope Noodle finds his breakthrough dose soon!!!
     
  26. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Wendy and Neko,
    Thanks so much for your words of encouragement. It really helps me to know that others have experienced this and came through victorious eventually :) Patience has never been my strong suit and I want Noodle to come down NOW:arghh: He had a little setback this weekend--his colitis flared up (we never know why) so I wonder if that is also getting in the way a little bit. I believe I've read that inflammation or pain can raise BGs. Fortunately, all 3 of the ketones tests I managed today came back negative so I am VERY thankful for that. He seems a bit better this evening. Thank you so much for all your help and for cheering Noodle on!

    Christi
     
  27. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Julie and Punkin,
    Thanks so much for checking in on Noodle :) His AMPS today was 251 and he was 246 at +8 so there is no movement even on the 4.25 ---groan. However he had a little colitis flare-up this weekend so maybe that is driving him a bit higher. Weird thing--when I report these numbers to my vet, she seems perfectly happy with them and thinks the mid-200s are grand. My previous vet told me if I could get Noodle into the 200s, I should "be the hell happy with it." (His words.) But aren't mid-200s above the renal threshold? Never mind what they say--I am just plugging along with the forum members' help, which is much appreciated. But Noodle has some stubborn numbers that's for sure. When I get discouraged, which is often by the way, I look at those early pinks and see that they are largely replaced by yellows now. I can't imagine how I'll feel on blues and greens, if they ever happen. Thanks so much for your ongoing help and advice--I'm so grateful that you're sticking with us :)

    Christi
     
  28. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi MollynSkooter,
    It's really nice to know I'm not the only one that feels that way---that Noodle has been at this a lot longer than some kitties who are lucky enough to become regulated right away, so what's wrong with him? With every dose increase I hope and pray that this will be the magic dose, and the seconds when I wait for the BG to come up on the meter I have butterflies in my stomach, hoping and hoping... I keep hearing references to most cats being on 1-2U so being at over 4 seems a lot by comparison. So hearing that sweet Skooter needed over 5 (even though I would never have wished that for him) and is now at .25 gives me hope that at least it's possible for Noodle. Thanks so much for your words of encouragement. Noodle had a dental 2 weeks ago and I had great hopes that that would lower his BGs but so far it doesn't seem to have had any effect. I remember that Skooter also has IBD, same as Noodle. Is he on any meds for it? Thanks again!

    Christi
     
  29. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    Your cat is more than a glucose number. See my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools for some additional methods to evaluate your cat's. And maybe consider reporting a "Whole Cat Report" in addition to his glucose - eating/drinking, peeing/pooping, and behaviors that indicate he's doing better.
     
  30. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Thanks so much, BJM. I guess I really am hung up on the numbers :-( I am going to put more of a "Whole Cat Report" on my SS. Just did Noodle's PMPS 30 minutes ago and he was at 194, a rare low for us. The secondary monitoring tools are very helpful. Thanks so much!

    Christi
     
  31. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    194??? At pmps! Awesome! That's progress! !

    Wouldn't be anywhere else except sticking with you Christi! And yes, an IBD flare-up could mess with bgs. Any infection, inflammation or pain can.

    anytime you shoot a number at pre shot that is lower than you've shot before, you always want to get a+1 and a +2 to test. Just so you see where they're going after the shot.
     
  32. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Thanks, Julie :). I am going in just a moment to get Noodle's +1. Thanks for the reminder. Quick question--obviously I fed Noodle at shot time. Won't the +1 and +2 possible show a food spike? How do I accurately interpret where he's really at? Should I get up at +6 or +8 to get a test then? Thanks so much!

    Christi
    P.S. If he gets a high number in the morning I'll have no choice but to just jump off a cliff and get it over with :rolleyes:
     
  33. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    May 30, 2010
    Hi Christi

    :cat::cat: on the 194!! To answer your question about food spikes, some cats get them, some don't, some get them in certain cycles, some don't. In other words...it can vary. Typically if a cat is clearing a bounce, you won't see a food spike so numbers can continue down.

    I think the best course of action right now is to get the +1 and +2 and post and then we can decide what the next test needs to be. He might continue down, he might get a food spike, or he might decide the 194 was low enough and he's going to call it a night. :)
     
  34. Sandy and Black Kitty

    Sandy and Black Kitty Well-Known Member

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    Dec 31, 2009
    Well well - a BLUE PS ! :cool:
    Woot!
     
  35. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Thanks Marje and Sandy :)
    Well, the +1 is 305 and the +2 is 275. Can't figure this out. What do you think about more tests and when? Thanks!

    Christi
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  36. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    May 30, 2010
    How long before you are going to bed? If it's a couple hours, I'd grab a before bed and if he's still pink/yellow, I'd get some sleep.
     
  37. tibbs5

    tibbs5 Well-Known Member

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    Jul 15, 2014
    congratulations on the blue christi. that's great. come on Noodle - are you finally starting to break???
     
  38. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    looking good!
     
  39. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Thanks, Marje. I'll be up a couple more hours and will get one more test.
    Thanks for the cheers, Julie and Nadine :) I just hope Noodle doesn't break our hearts tomorrow by going high again--my nerves can't take it!

    Christi
     
  40. tibbs5

    tibbs5 Well-Known Member

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    i know that feeling Christi. Come on Noodle. take the plunge. :cat:
     
  41. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 17, 2011
    i think you can probably expect him to bounce each time he hits these numbers that are in a lower range that he's been in for quite a long time. don't let it break your heart! focus on how great it is to see him hitting lower numbers! then enjoy the bounce cycles when you can take more of a break from testing. :)

    this sugar dance has a lot of two steps forward and one step backwards. it's still making progress overall. :bighug:
     
  42. tibbs5

    tibbs5 Well-Known Member

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    Jul 15, 2014
    hah. boy is that true!!!!
     
  43. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    Neko loved (loves :rolleyes:) to bounce. It helped when I started thinking of bounces as a result of positive things. Noodle bounces because you are getting better numbers and the pancreas/liver are noticing. The more time in better numbers, the shorter/smaller the bounce. BLUEtiful PMPS tonight.
     
  44. Christianna

    Christianna Member

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    Jul 19, 2014
    Thanks Julie and Wendy,
    After my elation at the BLUE, Noodle's gone right back up into the mid-high 200s. SIGH. Unfortunately he has also been battling diarrhea the past few days and is on Metronidazole as of yesterday so maybe that affects things. The FortiFlora really doesn't seem to help his diarrhea at all so I'm going to research a different and perhaps better (for him anyway) probiotic. Thanks for all your encouragement :)

    Christi
     
  45. Wendy&Neko

    Wendy&Neko Senior Member Moderator

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    Feb 28, 2012
    Diarrhea can definitely impact him, or whatever is causing it. The metronidazole should help the diarrhea. A higher power probiotic some people here use is Renew Ultimate. 1/3 capsule twice a day to start. I've heard it's available at Whole Foods, maybe GNC. In Canada it's stocked at the "organic" sections of stores.
     
  46. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Hi Christi! I'm glad to see that blue pmps pop in on 1/4. I think that confirms the decision to increase the dose. I hope he's still doing well BG-wise. Do you know what's causing the diarrhea? Metronidazole doesn't increase BGs - it's not only an antibiotic that works well in the gut, it also has some anti-inflammatory properties and should be helping it heal.

    I'm thinking it would be good to have meds listed in his ss, also that he's having diarrhea. All of that info can be essential in figuring out dosing or giving other help.

    We had good luck with Accuflora also - just a crumb of it. It's a people probiotic. The vet told me that gut bacteria is usually species-specific, so she was surprised the Accuflora worked. Fortiflora sometimes worked sometimes didn't work with punkin. Metronidazole always worked.

    I hope his gut settles down - i'm sure that's upsetting for everyone and doesn't feel good. :bighug:
     
  47. Christianna

    Christianna Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Wendy,
    Thank you for the tip on the Renew Ultimate. I will try to locate some to try. I know a lot of people have good luck with FortiFlora and it is a good "seasoning" to use when kitties don't want to eat but it doesn't seem to help Noodle. Thanks for your help. :)

    Christi
     
  48. Christianna

    Christianna Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Julie,
    You asked what might have caused the diarrhea and my best guess is the AB Simplicef that he was given following his dental. He took it for a few days then the diarrhea started. I called the vet and she said to stop it and step up the FortiFlora and that that should take care of it. It didn't, so she prescribed Metronidazole which had worked well for Noodle before. He also has a history of mild-moderate IBD which flares up occasionally and multiple food allergies. However, we have kept him on his few safe foods for several months and the trouble only developed after antibiotic use, first in October following BioMox and now after Simplicef. He has a touchy gut to begin with but ALWAYS has problems with ABS, FortiFlora or not :( So it's really walking a tightrope, a complication he doesn't need. I need to go and update my SS; I am dreadfully behind. I will add notes about the diarrhea, meds, etc.
    Thank you for the tip on Accuflora. I'm going to look into it also. I have to read labels carefully as Noodle is allergic to so many things. The vet previously suggested some supplement and in reading the label I saw that it had wheat bran and rice bran in it. Not only too many carbs but wheat also is one of his allergens. S-h-e-e-e-s-h.
    Thanks so much for your helpful suggestions :)

    Christi
     
  49. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    i feel for you. punkin got c-diff from one round of ABs (clindamycin) after a dental infection, and it took 40 days for him to get over the c-diff. and after that, it seemed like he was more prone to diarrhea. it's so hard on them. the Accuflora was just something I happened to have around the house. I don't know about cats, but in people, too much probiotic can set some people off with more diarrhea, so i would go very easy on the amount i gave of any probiotic and build up to more if it's ok.

    Hopefully a couple more days on the Metronidazole will help him heal.
     
  50. Christianna

    Christianna Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Julie,
    I was one of those people for whom probiotics (too much of them) actually added to my problems. Many years ago I had to take a prolonged course of doxycycline to treat Lyme disease and I was told to take probiotics to balance the effects of the antibiotics. I couldn't tolerate the high amount and had some of the worst stomach problems I had ever had. Poor Noodle seems to feel worse with whatever's in the FortiFlora; maybe I was giving him too much. Anyway, I will start very judiciously, so I don't overwhelm his poor little system. If it's not one thing, it's another it seems.
    Poor Punkin, to suffer for 40 days :(. I have heard that c-diff is notoriously hard to eradicate. The word difficile must have been used for a reason.
    Thanks so much for always being there to help me out. Noodle sends a moist kiss :kiss:

    Christi
     
  51. Tiger(GA) and Ruth

    Tiger(GA) and Ruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2014

    Hi Christi, I am so sorry to hear Noodle is suffering with diarrhea this long, I hope he feels better soon. Also wanted to add some :bighug::bighug: for you having to deal with Lyme disease and the resulting GI upsets from extended doxycycline. I'm one that struggles with AB's so you have my deepest sympathy for what you went through!
     
  52. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    I can sympathize, christi. One of my daughter's still not certain if she has Lyme's and she's really had 2 years of constant health problems. Are you healed from it? I worry that she won't recover.

    I loved the wet Noodle kiss! Lol :D
     
  53. Christianna

    Christianna Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Tiger and Ruth,
    Thank you so much for your good wishes for Noodle. He seems to feel better today and his stool has started to firm up a bit so we're hoping we're on the right path. I know antibiotics have their place but they sure do a number on him, on me and on you! I have a heart murmur and for years the recommended protocol was to take 4-500 mg. capsules of amoxicillin before my dental cleaning and then 2 more 500 mg. capsules 6 hours later. I then knew there would be two days of misery. That was what I dreaded, NOT the actual dental work :eek:. Then about 10 years ago, the medical gurus said that I didn't have to do that any more. Just like that, they changed their minds and the pre-dental protocol. Just goes to show that, as one old vet of mine told me, "medicine is not an exact science." Huh? Ya think? Here's hoping for an antibiotic-free future for all of us :):) Thanks so much for your response!

    Christi
     
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  54. Christianna

    Christianna Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
     
  55. Christianna

    Christianna Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2014
    Hi Julie,
    Oh, I am really sorry to hear that your daughter might have Lyme. It can be a nightmare. Unfortunately, I still have residual problems from it like joint pain, headaches and profound fatigue. The Lyme was diagnosed 7 years ago and then 2 years later I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia. The doctors think the Lyme might have caused the fibro or at least was culpable. It took years to get a diagnosis and the Western Blot test for Lyme is notoriously vague. There is also no clear confirmatory test for fibro--it's more a diagnosis of exclusion. Did your daughter have the bulls-eye rash? Chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia and Lyme share so many of the same symptoms that sometimes doctors themselves can't reach a consensus on what you really have and so often sufferers have two or more of them concurrently or in sequence. Nadine (Tibbs5) is really an expert on this subject and helped me with a list of supplements to improve my energy level. I am sure if you PMed her, she would be really happy to help. She is also an EMT. There is so much talent here on this board--I discover something new every day about the amazing stories people have. I hope your daughter doesn't have Lyme and that something can be unearthed to help her feel better. What type of symptoms does she suffer with, if you don't mind my asking?

    Christi
     
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  56. tibbs5

    tibbs5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2014
    hi Christi & Julie
    yes i know lots about Lyme disease. i had it myself very badly for 2 years and unfortunately still have post Lyme symptoms. there are some things you can do. i would be happy to help if you need any information. just let me know. :bighug::bighug:
     
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