2 interesting things about tom

Hi everyone, I thought I'd fill you in on the latest with tomtom. It's interesting....but it always is with him.
1. his curve is usually a 24 hour curve and his pm's are generally too low to shoot. His am's usually in the low 200's and he get's 1 unit and proceeds to drop like a rock within
1-2 hours. Seriously, he'll be at like 50.
2 days ago I decided no shot, let's see how he does.
Well he does exactly the same as if i'd shot him, only a much gentler curve!
am 213
+1 154
+3 81
+12 127
+24 238
+31 95
+48 109
This basically is better than when I shoot him...only question is it's still not normal and we all know he needs a dental...but in the meantime, should I just keep testing and not shooting.

2. Tom's been so much more lovey-dovey since we've been testing and shooting again. It's not like I don't give him ton's of attention when he's otj (like he was for 2 years) but he just really likes the ritual of testing. Is he strange?????

 

So wonderful that Tom is doing so well.

Buddha likes everything about the tests except the pokes. He'll often knead my lap and purr. But when he knows that poke is coming, then it's head shaking and rubbing time.

 

Well Donna, I don't know if he's doing well....I don't know what the heck he's doing. It's not normal! confused_cat
I mean I still don't like waking up to a 230 every morning---that can't be good.

Donna I feel for you, just took a peek at Budda's SS and I know you've got your hands full.
I guess tom does look good by comparison

 

Well, perhaps you could try giving less than 1u at amps and then he'd have a shootable pmps.

Does he go up much at +13 or +14 or +15? Maybe the 200 at amps is that thing called the "dawn phenomenon" or "dawn effect."

Yes, it's all relative isn't it?

 

So wait, distill this down to my simpleton brain. Tomtom PSs around 230 insulin or not? What if your go 3+ cycles with no insulin?

PSs of 230 is technically not THAT bad. H was doing about that for a while and I too him into the vet and got a urinalysis done and no glucose so...

You've already heard enough from me about giving small doses so I don't need to go on repeat :smile:

 

yeah gator, check out his ss. he's normally early 200's, with insulin drops way too fast and he's now on day 2, 60 hours with no insulin and honestly his #'s are better...only in that he has no rocket drops but a nice slow 24 hour curve. if you think 230 is cool, i think i'm going to stop shooting as i don't believe those drops have been good for him.

 

So here's the deals. I think "cool" is below renal threshold which as you are probably aware is different for every cat. SO, knowing your position I have some Keto-Diastix that I would be happy to mail to you that would test urine glucose. HOWEVER they expired on 2/22/10. The box says they expire on 2010-10... I have opened them thus exposing them air once. AND this would not be like you getting a real urinalysis or even testing with strips that were within expiry. BUT, they are there for your taking. PM me if you would like me to send to you.

Otherwise, I'll keep my trapper zipped. ;-)

 

Lori,
Is that PS possibly after food? and the drop is caused by normal pancreas action as a result of the food spike? I know thats probably too simple, but had to ask.

I recently bought ketodiastyx again, and they cost about $15/50. It would be interesting to know if he's spilling glucose.

I have to agree, if he were mine, I think I would just keep watching and not shoot. I always thought it is normal to have briefly elevated bg after eating, the real test being that the pancreas REACTS, and brings it down.

If you get those higher PS's before eating in the AM's, maybe its 'stress" "HEY, I"M STARVING HERE, GET OUT OF BED AND FEED ME BEFORE I STARVE TO DEATH!" :lol:

 

OK Nancy, now for the really interesting thing.....his amps are HIGHEST 10-12 hours without food, in the am, before breakfast. He fall naturally after I stimulate his pancrease with food. he's falling on his own within an hour and naturally for the rest of the day. I think that's why his pm's are unshootable becuase he's been eatting throughout the day.
It looks like a pancrease that works ONLY when stimulated by food intake.
And Gator thank you for the offer, but I think your right about them being not in prime shape. I'll see if I can grab some at the local CVS. If I do find sugar in his urine....then what?

 

hey reread my last post I added/edited something that probably explains it.

And the pancreas' job is to react to food, its not suppose to spit out insulin, unless it is needed.

 

side note: this mornings #'s at 9 am....an hour later than usual, no food----235! that is 72 hours w/o insulin and that is exactly what I might see with all the injecting, measuring, thought, blah blah blah that I've been doing shooting. he'll be starting his gradual decent now which will look better and he feels better than with a shot.
Gosh, if it's not a dental...does my baby have...like maybe pancreatic cancer or something?

 

got your post nancy...yes, but i honestly don't feel he's stressing on hunger. he lays on my pillow next to me and purrs till i decide to get up and feed. he used to meow, pull at the covers, tap my face. he's such a sweet guy now he patiently waits.....and purrs. :mrgreen:

 

If you do find sugar then you can have somewhat of a clue if you are keeping him [or he is keeping himself] under the renal threshold. Of course the strips are not as accurate as a urinalysis, but if it were positive then I think one could take that as a reasonable clue that Tomtom was spending at least some time outside the renal threshold.

Basically just one more thing top help you make up your mind if you are happy with him at the levels he seems to be keeping himself at or not.

 

if you find glucose in his urine, it means his sugar is not as well regulated as you want. When BLOOD sugar is above a magical level, the kidneys remove the excess, and take extra water with it, leading to dehydration. If you find it consistently, you may need to try something different,
maybe a timed feeder, set to go off twice during the night

or a small dose of insulin (way less than 1u)
personally, I'd try the feeder first.

This cycle would NOT make me think of cancer at all- but then I 'm not a vet. Cats seem to be very cyclic animals, ever notice that? 1-2 days of something and they think thats the new pattern, just something i've noticed, like with feeding, "hey you fed me at 1:30 yesterday, where's the goods today?"

 

tell ya nancy, that small dose of insulin would have to be shot about 2 in the am. i like the food idea better.....slow feeder throughout the night.
thanks for the info gator. his drinking is almost non existant but i do juice up his meals with a tablespoon or 2 of water. he pee's normally. I'll test.

 

Though I have no official reason for saying this but I would try to grab the urine perhaps when you know he's going to be at his highest or shortly after that. Just my intuition thinking that the best chance to fine glucose in the urine would be during those times perhaps.

 

oh gator...if only! tom doesn't urinate often...or with any regularity. his bladder must be huge as when we pee together (yes sometimes that happens) his stream seems to last longer than mine! i'll be lucky to get it when i can. but will aim for morning or midnight stream.

 

the urine results will be delayed from when the blood was high, thats why it is a very crude moniter. I'm guessing if he doesn't go often you are going to be pleased that it tests minimal or trace. Folks will tell you the renal threshold is variable, but usually way higher than the numbers you are reporting.

 

???? i'm not understanding what you mean, the threshhold is higher than the results i'm getting?
does it mean if he's a little high in glucose his threshold is higher than that? confused_cat

 

If you see NO gluc in his urine , than his renal threshold is above the highest blood gluc level he's at.

the "renal threshhold" is the blood glucose level (for example 270) at which excess glucose in the blood starts to be removed by the kidneys. If your cats peak blood glucose is 230, for example, it may not be high enough to get excreted through the urine. But if it went up to 270, you would start to see positive urine glucose test on the strips, probably several hours later, because it takes awhile to filter it out through the kidneys.

There is a BG range when that happens in various cats(ECID), but I think most folks think you won't see urine glucose if the blood glucose stays below probably 200. and the higher the blood gluc, the higher the urine gluc. Urine gluc can encourage UTI's, and dehydration, and in cody's case constipation, and heart issues, flow & low blood volume etc etc. Since I cant get his sugar down, I give fluids everyday to help remove sugar through the kidneys, and keep everything else from shutting down. messed up- yes I know.

 

It is my perhaps incorrect understanding that renal threshold is about at the level the DM starts causing damage to the organs. But I may be wrong about this and I don't have the time right now to do the research on it. But in terms of goal setting, that's always been our goal: to keep H below renal threshold, anything on top of that [lower numbers] is gravy. Of course I know H is never going to go OTJ and I'm probably pretty darned cautious about dosing since H frequently goes on food protest and other reasons.

Anyway, the renal threshold might be something you want to use for you own goal setting or not.