3/10 Cain Brought him home

Hello again!

Previous condo

This weekend has been well...not hell but yeah. I don't want to repeat it. Saturday in particular. I think I ended up crying like three times. Not long but it was a very trying day.

I took Cain into the vet this morning. They were booked up but the vet saw me not long after I got there thankfully. Cain was dehydrated and has eaten very little in the last three days. Most of what he ate this past weekend was what I could either tempt him into eating or via finger or syringe. Therefore, not much. I suck at giving him stuff in syringes btw. I'm trying but even though he's a mellow cat, I mess it up and he's trying to drool it out of his mouth. Like his pain meds this morning. >_<

Anyways, I told the vet all about this weekend. How little he ate and drank the day before, what I could feed him. I asked for fluids, pain meds, and another anti-nausea shot. Cain was given subq fluids, another anti-nausea shot (cerenia again I think, it's not on this bill though), and they drew blood. I overheard the vet calling up the lab they use to see the best test to determine pancreatitis. Cain's blood is being sent to the vet office's usual lab, (AMTEC I think?) and they're sending a sample onto Texas A&M. So that test result will take longer due to the shuffling involved. I'm to call in at 4:30 to see if they have any results yet and most of the results should be in tomorrow except for T4 and the A&M test. They are running quite a few blood tests. T4, a blood count super chem test which covers BUN, phosphorous, potassium levels, glucose, and alllll sorts of tests, and the spec fPL at A&M. Those tests are costing me a pretty penny especially the A&M one. Good thing the office is allowing me to pay in payments. And the subq fluids weren't cheap. I'm going to be doing that at home if I have to keep giving it to him. I told the vet I could and he asked if I was a nurse and I told him no, but I gave him insulin shots for months. He said it's good to know that I was willing to do that for my cat. I'm sorry Marje, I just didn't get to watching your video for giving subq fluids. I will soon!

I got butorphanol in a solution to give for pain. But only after I asked for Buprenex so to stop any pain he seems to be having. Cain doesn't meatloaf like this otherwise. He's usually spread out or curled up. All he's doing is hunching down or meatloafing but he'll shift where he's sleeping/moatloafing frequently. He'll kinda curve a bit to sleep but that's it. The office doesn't keep Bupe in stock. They don't carry it usually is what the response I got when I asked for it. If butorphanol is to be given like bupe, well I messed that up. Got it mostly in his mouth but not the cheek area. He was drooling that stuff out but he's on a 12 hour dose so I'm not giving him anymore yet.

I just checked his BG at the +2 mark which was 289. Vet stress plus subq fluids are probably messing it up. Though if he's in pain, it will mess it up too I'm sure. Please let me know if y'all think I should start insulin up again sometime soon. I might be able to swing it in the future after I pay off the vet bill. I'm pretty sure the vial I have in the fridge still is too old but I could always try it. Actually it's nearly a year old at this point so I probably need to throw it out.

I gave him a regular spoon (just under a tablespoon) of chicken baby food (stage 1) by my finger. Messy but I wanted to see if he was going to eat it. Other than going into my dripping shower to get the taste of butorphanol out of his mouth, he's been on the bathroom rug since. He hid under my bed yesterday after giving him some food via syringe. The cerenia only held till sunday too. He was back vomiting then.

He's still licking his lips and swallowing today even after the visit. I don't think cerenia is doing well on getting his nausea down.

Btw, this wasn't his usual vet, it was the other one in the practice. But he talked to Cain's usual vet and that vet was there as well but busy with another patient I'm guessing.

So, I'm going to try to get him to eat more either via finger or syringe in an hour and wait to see what results come in. Both my parents are telling me to be prepared if I have to put him down. :roll: I'm just thinking if I can get that nausea and pain down, he'll start eating again. He's jumping on my bed and sleeping near me at night as usual even though he's not feeling well.

And that's my short essay for this morning. I want one of these but I have to have decaf thanks to my stomach. Bah. And I bought one saturday so I'm going to be good and have decaf tea.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

Huh, looks like Cain's trembling a little bit. Side effect of the butorphanol?

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

Okay I just found him sitting inside the litter box. Just hunched up in it trying to meatloaf. nailbite_smile I'm going to see if I can get some food in him. I've never seen him in the little box like that. I hope it's the pain meds causing that.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

What's the dosage for the bupe? I don't know the true amount that is normally given but someone else will and want to know the amount.
Mine is on the smallest dose possible to help pain management.

You had luck with the chicken.
Did you try other cans of food... even higher carb ones?
He really needs to eat.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

Hi Jen,

I don't know what that pain medication is.. You REALLY need to get him the Buprenex, even if they must order it.

IMO, Cain is still extremely dehydrated even after those sub-qs. He's your cat so you're going to have to decide whether you want to put him down, or get him through this _P-episode. He needs to be in a hospital for at least a few days with an IV drip to be completely rehydrated. It might even take longer than that.

He's in your litter box because he needs to poop but he cannot because he is too dehydrated. He is not eating because he is still too dehydrated, plus he has poop stuck in his colon which is making him full and he does not want to eat.

You REALLY need to add those (2) TBS's of Pedialyte to his baby food when you syringe feed him. There is not enough moisture in that baby food alone to get Cain rehydrated once again.

I know all of this because I learned from trial and error with my P- Kitty Jomo.

He is going to start losing weight very fast if you cannot get food into him. One teaspoon of baby food a day is NOT enough food for Cain.. He could die very quickly of Fatty Liver Disease if you don't act fast to get food into him. If you want to save his life from FLD, it will cost you even more money in the hospital than taking him to the hospital right now for a few days and IV fluids to completely rehydrate him.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

I'm supposed to give 1ml of butorphanol by mouth every 12 hours. I made a baby food chicken/squash/pedialite for liquid combo and managed to syringe in 3ml of it in before he had enough. He didn't show any interest in some rotisserie chicken I warmed up. I have one more piece of KFC in the fridge I'm thinking of trying to warm up. Though he had subq's today so I guess I could use water instead to make it easier to syringe. I don't have any other high carb foods on hand. I think I gave Brownie the 12% roasted chicken earlier this week.

I'm not sure where I can buy the max cal food. Is it vet only? I was so worried and focused on trying to get what I needed I forgot to check if my vet had it. Or would one of those petsmart stores with a vet office inside carry it?

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

The IAMS Maximum Calorie is sold at vet's offices or online, but then you have to wait for it to arrive and have a prescription.
I would call the vet's offices around you and see if any of them carry IAMS. At a vet's office you should be able to just buy a few cans, and get a few 10ml feeding syringes while you're there.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

Just wanted to also let you know that a BG of 286 is not that high..

My Rocky has touched 500 a few times in the past few days. He is STILL hungry, active, and loving.

It is NOT the diabetes that is making him not want to eat.. It is pancreatitis..it is dehydration, constipation, and pain.

The reason I bring this up is because you have mentioned breaking out the insulin a few times in your posts, as if this might help him to start eating. I highly doubt that it would bring back his appetite. You must treat his pancreatitis first, and he definitely needs to eat now.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

I'm really confused. Butrophanol is given either as a tablet, injection or nasal spray. It is NOT an oral medication. Buprenex can be given as either an oral med or by injection. Can you call the vet and get clarification? If Cain is drooling with this, it's probably because it tastes awful and won't work properly if given as an oral drug. Chances are if you give it as an injection, it is just like giving a subcutaneous insulin injection so this is something you can do.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

They're closed for the day. I doubt any vet office in the area is open at the moment. It's already 6:37pm here. The vet said they were putting it in a vitamin solution if I remember correctly. The billing line is Butorphanol 1.5ml/Pet Tinic 13.5ml. It's midnight before the next dose. I would have to call around to other vets tomorrow if I can get any bupe... or is that stuff by prescription only?

Managed to get Cain to eat most of a 10ml syringe of the previous food I made up for him about 35mins ago.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

Buprenorphine is a narcotic. So it is a controlled substance. If your vet doesn't have any, you can also take a prescription to a compounding pharmacy and have it done. I don't know if a regular pharmacy like Walgreens would carry it but you can check.

I also urge you to ask for ondansetron (zofran) for nausea. It really does work well and I cannot overstress well.

Sending more healing vines.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

I agree with Marge. I would ask for a prescription for Ondansetron. Costco Pharmacy (where you don't need to be a member to use their pharmacy) has the best prices.

I would try to get about 10ml into him about every half hour or so. He probably needs more calories right now, than he usually eats, so I encourage you to keep trying to get him to eat. If you need to go back on insulin for a bit, then that happens. He needs to eat.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

Sorry was out checking the Petsmart that's 30-ish mins out since they have a vet office. I picked up two cans of the Royal Canin Recovery RS. So I'm going to get Cain out of wherever he's hiding at right now and set this food up for syringe.

Edit: So, should I feed him every half hour till bed time? Will I be able to sleep tonight?

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

I just called Walgreens for myself for Buprenorphine.... or Buprenex. ( name brand)
You do have to have a prescription and if they don't have it in stock, they can order it.
You may have to call around to other vet offices or other pharmacies but hopefully someone has some in stock so you don't have to wait for a special order.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

Aww thank you for calling, Rhiannon. I'll ask for a prescription for buprenorphine and Ondansetron when the vet calls tomorrow morning with some of the lab results. If they don't call, I'll call them for it.

And if I haven't said it lately, I super super appreciate all the help y'all are giving me. I'd send cookies as thanks if I could. \M/ This place rocks.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

I get the feeling I shouldn't have gone to sleep. Or at least on one of the times I woke up I should have fed him more food. I kept hitting snooze. I'm just so tired lately.

Cain was on my bed as usual when I woke up this morning. I didn't realize it at first cause I woke up and went looking for him. He's sluggish, dehydrated still, and really didn't want the syringe feeding just now. I gave him most of 3ml of pedialite too. Hoping it would work a bit. Splay legged a bit on his hind legs, but he hasn't had his methylcobalamin in regular doses since this started. Vet called and said his liver values are elevated and he's jaundiced. I'm not sure what to do about that. Probably my fault at this point. I asked about the prescription but he sounded kinda confused. I'm going to insist on getting the prescription however. At this point, what else can I do? I don't think it'll hurt to try different medication. Maybe he'll want to eat or at least drink if the nausea's gone. Cain's also going to get an antibiotic for the inflammation (I think it was for that...). It's all good indicators that he has pancreatitis but the A&M test specific for that hasn't come back in yet. So not official, just suspected.

I'm taking Cain back in today at a 2:45pm for more subq fluids and they said they're going to teach me how to give them. And I will use your video as well Marje. Cause I know I'm going to forget something in all this. The vet did suggest I might need to see a specialist about putting in a feeding tube. Cain's vet at the practice doesn't do them. However, since it's my dad paying for all of this since I've been unemployed for years, I don't think that's going to happen. It's why I can't afford the emergency vet. Won't hurt to call and ask their rates I guess though.

...and I thought my cat having diabetes was scary and overwhelming. Pancreatitis and all his symptoms certainly has that beat.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

(((Jennifer & Cain))) cat_pet_icon

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 2nd vet visit

So very sorry to hear about Cain's jaundice Jen.. It takes a lot out of us caregivers when our little one is having a pancreatic episode. The feeding, the fluids, the monitoring.. I am so sorry to tell you that the yellowing of Cain's ears holds a bad prognosis as It is an indication of Fatty Liver Disease. He needed more to eat. Now his liver is involved as well...

It is not very likely that he can recover from this without hospitalization, whether you decided to insert the feeding tube into him or not. He really needs those continuous, 24 hr, IV drip fluids for several days to be re-hydrated...

I think taking him to the vet for another round of sub-qs is not going to help Cain very much. Your vet just can't get enough fluids into him by doing the sub-qs. When your vet does sub-q fluids, they go under the skin and it takes awhile for Cain's body to absorb it.

At the hospital, the techs insert an IV drip line RIGHT INTO his vein, and they monitor that drip fluid to make sure that it's not too much pressure for his vein, and Cain would be CONSTANTLY getting those electrolytes and fluids that he needs immediately, drip by drip, every few seconds.

I wish so badly that you could take Cain to the hospital today instead of to the vet. Your vet just can't do enough for him.

I feel so sad for you and Cain....

 

Re: 3/10 Cain Staying overnight

Well, uh, I'm feeling both relieved and uh dumb at the moment.

The practice my vet works at is a Veterinary Hospital for the town. It's in their name even. I got my cats spayed/neutered there. I just never realized it and they didn't bring up that Cain should be on an iv drip. Now granted it was the other vet in the practice and not the usual vet Cain has been seeing. But I was bringing up what Tina has been pushing that I need to take Cain to the emergency vet hospital, they did give him subq's but once they worked out a payment plan for me, they set up an IV for Cain and he's staying there right now over night, maybe two nights. I'm supposed to call my vet tomorrow morning but I'm going to take the other can of Royal Cannin Recovery to them for him to eat. They only have the Hills vet food there. Cain also got another nausea shot and something for pain. I hope it's on the records somewhere but he didn't say what. Oh I think Covenia for antibiotics.

I didn't even realize he was getting yellow until I looked closer. He's a beige-ish orange tabby so it blended right in. It's noticeable today though.

The vet did suggest a cat specialist and went to look her up but she's in Fort Worth which is like I think a 6 hour drive. Bound to be some in Houston though. It's a big enough city. But we'll see if he'll pull through first.

I left the towel I keep around me for when Cain likes to jump on my lap when I'm wearing pajamas. It should be something from home smelling I hope.

I hope Dad won't be too disappointed but I had to try. Especially when the quote was only $300 and they're willing to payment plan it and I've been going there for 15 years. And I didn't have to drive a long distance to do so.

I will push the prescriptions when I pick Cain up. I think I can talk my usual vet into getting them. Can't hurt to try them.

Off to get a down payment and one of these babies in decaf cause this morning sucked and I thought I was going to have to put him down.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

ANOTHER BIG HUGE HUG....glad he's now getting IV fluids and other good stuff.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

I'm glad Cain is getting some IV treatment and being taken good care of. I hope it helps him immensely and you can get the prescriptions you need. Many hugs and healing vines being sent to him, and you :YMHUG:

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Mega healing vines :YMHUG: :YMHUG:

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

((((jennifer))))

we'll be watching for your updates.

the only thing i read in your posts that i wanted to mention is that sub-q's don't increase blood sugar. sometimes they do nothing and sometimes they lower it, but i've never heard anyone suggest they could increase the numbers. if his numbers are still high, i would be thinking about insulin when he comes home to give his pancreas some support.

I haven't heard that pedialyte is better for a diabetic cat and personally, would go with low carb choices in everything possible, including water instead of pedialyte. having his blood sugar go up isn't helping him and feeding a diabetic cat a sugar water solution for any purpose other than to address hypoglycemia would make me nervous. i think Tina's cat that had pancreatitis wasn't a diabetic, if i'm reading things right.

of course, none of us are vets, so perhaps you could run these kinds of questions by your vet to get clarification.

sending all our best!

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Hi Jen and Julie,

No, Jomo was never diabetic. The only reason I suggested the Pedialyte was because at first it sounded like she might have caught Cain right at the beginning of an P-episode, and if that would have happened then she could have *possibly* helped him get over it with the fluids and electrolystes that he needed. However, even WITH those electrolyte fluids in his food rather than straight tap water, Cain still would have needed those sub-qs from her to make that plan work.

Jen, I would avoid any fish flavored foods when you bring Cain home. Also, make sure to check the labels of the LC foods that you are feeding him see if *fish* is somewhere in the ingredients, even if the food is labeled "Granny's Special Chicken."

There is a scientific connection between inflamation of the bile ducts and iodine, which is in ALL fish found in cat foods. If Cain was my cat, I would NEVER feed him any fish flavored food again. It will help decrease his likelihood of another P-episode, although maybe not all together stop those attacks.

Also, I would forever now add at least (1)TBS of water to all of Cain's meals. We just can't make cats drink enough water and when they are diabetic they pee more. In addition, even that tiny amount of squash, 1/8 tsp, has LOADS of vitamin A in it which are very good for the pancreas. (Don't give him vitamin A as a supplement though, it's too dangerous to mess with)

In addition, avoid feeding KFC chicken and rotessiere chickens. These are LOADED with salt (IODINE), again, horrible for the bile ducts and thus the pancreas. Just say NO to treats of these kinds!

Before you bring Cain home have them teach you how to give HIM IV fluids. In the future, you might be able to prevent a full blown P-episode if you recognize the signs of his dehydration right away. Usually it means that they do not want to eat. So, at the first sign of not being hungry for their normal meal, suspect dehydration. Also, they will jump in and out of their litter box without going poop. It means their is poop that can't get out of their colon because it is too dry and stuck in there.

I think Cain has a very good chance of making it now, as long as the vet techs can get him to eat. You'll want to call and check up, make sure that he is eating. The vet techs will usually just put a tiny bit of food in front of the cat on a plate, and wait for the cat to eat on it's own. You CANNOT do this with Cain if he won't eat on his own. Even overnight at the vet he might need to be assist fed. He is already having liver problems. So, if you can swing it, I would go see Cain every day and help to syringe feed him. That's how I had to do it with Jomo when she was hospitalized. Those vet techs were not going to give my Jomo the individualized care that I gave to her. They just don't have enough time.

Saying prayers for you and Cain. It's really great that you have him on the IV drip now. \M/

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Thank you for all the hugs and vines. I really appreciate them.

I visited the vet before they closed and Cain is starting to look a bit better. His eyes are more open and started purring up a storm when I was petting him. Granted he was purring a bit at the vet but not at home... He's just a weird mellow dude. The vet tech I was talking to said he perked up and looked around when she clicked at him. It's not 24hour care but Cain's vet is going by the office tonight to check on him and I can call him tomorrow morning to talk to him and he'll be on the IV all the time. Cain was just looking really bad this morning/afternoon and now he's looking a bit better. And the vet tech brushed him a bit so he's not shedding as much. I need to get one of those combs she used.

I did give the can of the Recovery over and the lady said it looked just like the one from Hills but different named (cause pet food vendors like doing that). I did tell them they might have to syringe feed him cause he might not want to eat. She told me they have all the stuff there to do that. Cain was swallowing and drooling a bit and I let them know about it. I did learn how to put a needle in for subq's. Which was remarkably similar to how I gave him insulin.

Oh! I forgot to mention this earlier but he had a full bladder when I took him into the vet this morning, and I saw that he did go a little in the litter box he was sleeping in but the vet expressed his bladder (I think that's right) and it was an extremely dark yellow.

The vet also showed me the lab results and a lot of it flew over my head but there was a lot of high levels on liver and whatnot. I should get a copy I think. The A&M test should be coming in any day now I think.

Julie, I knew subq's could affect BG level somehow but I couldn't remember which way. Thanks

Brownie's the one that tends to get the chicken pieces from rotisserie and I rarely get KFC. Cain doesn't show as much interest in it thankfully. Brownie though, oh boy. :lol:

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Hi Jennifer,
I'm so glad to hear that Cain is looking better today!
Sending many many healing vines.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

I've been thinking about you guys all day. I'm glad Cain is getting fluids and looking better. Sending tons of prayers!!!

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Hi Jennifer,
I just got caught up on Cain's health problems and want strongly to recommend to you that you take him to the vet practice that is able to insert a feeding tube. Feeding tubes have saved the lives of several kitties here on FDMB because they allow the cat to get all of the food and nutrients he needs without struggling with syringes, homemade remedies, etc. Our "resident expert" on Fatty Liver Disease (Hepatic Lipidosis) is Karrie. A feeding tube saved her kitty, Maverick's life. Here is a link to her essay on Maverick's experience with Hepatic Lipidosis:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qkxaFCBp5f_wnR_ApOBmaGWKAmgi6RQNGuCjneDvz0E/preview

She stresses how much help she received from the Yahoo Assisted Feeding Group:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Feline-Assisted-Feeding/info
You should join this group!

I hope that Cain will feel better and better, but I don't think that I would wait too much longer before trying the feeding tube.

Hugs to you and scritches to Cain,

Ella & Rusty

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

I agree with ELLA (oops, sorry).... Cain's liver became involved so his illness progressed from not just pancreatitis but all the way to Fatty Liver Disease. I hope you will read Karrie's short story, Julie sent you the link.. if you are going to save Cain's life, he needs that feeding tube now without delay. Prayers to you both o

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Well Cain has stayed at the vet for two nights, and last night he pulled out his IV drip so they removed it this morning. The vet nicely called around and found someone near me that does regularly do feeding tubes for felines and has instructions for handling it. I left them a message a while ago (the vet was out for lunch) and I'm waiting on them to call back. I will see if it's viable for me to even be able to do this. I already owe my vet so much. (Yes, I read the story y'all linked. Thank you for linking it.)

Cain's a bit less yellow this morning though he has definitely perked up more since I put him in for the IV, he's still a bit yellow. He was meatloafing again when I got there. Still nauseous the entire time he was there even through the medications they gave him. They syringe fed him this morning and apparently he fought them on it. He was definitely purring up a storm when I was petting him. Which he's done that every time I've visited him the last two days.

My vet's waiting on me to make a decision on what to do, whether I decide to shift him over to the other practice to get that feeding tube, or bring him home with pain meds (I showed him the buprenex name and he said I might be able to get it from a compounding pharmacy in the area or they could order it from the pharmacy I get Brownie's meds from), or even to decide to put him down. I don't like that last option but it's on the table cause I can't tell his survival rate at this point. I looked on the wiki and jaundice is late stage of heptatic lipidosis and while I can probably get him over it from what I can see, it does depend on how bad he is and how aggressive I can get on the feeding. Plus he's still in pain and nausea from the pancreatitis which no meds I've given him or the vet has can seem to get him over that. (Yeah I know we haven't been able to try the ones y'all are suggesting cause he's been at the vet for two days, but what if they don't work? I really hope they work but yeah...)

I don't know what to do at the moment. I'm waiting on the other practice's vet to call. I'm trying to find survival rates of having both conditions. :cry: How likely can I syringe feed him and get him over the heptatic lipidosis? So far he hasn't thrown up anything I've given him syringe wise.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Jennifer, I have no answers, but wanted you to know that you and Cain are in my prayers. cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Hi Jen,

This is such a difficult decision for you.. the money involved, your time involved.. your love for Cain involved.

Although I am no expert on Fatty Liver Disease, with his condition still as bad at it is, I don't personally believe that you would be able to save his life by bringing him home and trying to syringe feed him. You've already had difficult times with that and had kind of given up trying to syringe feed him yourself. I think he needs the feeding tube if you are going to try to save his life.

About the meatloaf position, his pain, nausea.. The medication he needs for pain management is called Buprenor or Buprenex. Besides Cain being in pain from pancreatitis, there is a chance that his stomach is involved because of his constant wanting to vomit. He could have an ulcer. The Pepcid helps reduce stomach acid but does not coat the stomach to relieve an ulcer. A medicine called SULCRAFATE will do that. Unfortunately, there is NO WAY to discguise the taste of this medicine and most cats just hate it. I had to give it to my kitty Jomo and she almost always threw it up. Treating this stuff is all so time consuming..

Basically, you would give the pepcid (FOMATADINE), the smallest dose possible, wait about 15 minutes, and then dose with the Sulcrafate, and wait another 15 minutes, and THEN FEED.

This is what you would do **IF** Cain's problem was manageable at home. Unfortunately, I don't think that is the case right now. He is still yellow and he is still stick to is stomach. He definitely has Fatty Liver Disease.

Do you know his kidney values? Did they give you any information on how well his kidney's are now functioning?

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

No I haven't gotten his kidney values. It was probably one of the tests they did so it's on there. I'll call my vet up (once I'm calm enough) to find out. He did urinate while at the vet. They've been changing the towels he's been resting. Still fairly dark yellow urine from what the vet was saying. But he hasn't gone much this morning. Yesterday yes but not this morning.

My dad vetoed the feeding tube idea. Which I understand. I haven't heard from the other vet yet but prices alone I've see suggested on the internet is so completely out of my range. That's why I'm thinking maybe syringe feeding? Subq's for fluids he can't get through syringe maybe? Once I got the food from petsmart I was feeding him every 30-40mins to an hour between each before I went to bed but how long will he let me do that is a good question.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Hi Jennifer,
I took the liberty of sending a Private Message to Karrie (Maverick). I hope that she will see it and will check your condo. I know of no one else who has such extensive experience with Fatty Liver Disease. She has helped several kitties here over the years.
Tina is right that Cain needs to stay in the hospital right now. I hope that he will fight through this, but he needs lots of help and the right kind of care. From what I am reading here in your condo, a feeding tube is essential. Perhaps you can talk to your father again.

Sending tons of healing vines to your boy,

Ella & Rusty

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

(((Jennifer))) this has been a very hard few days for you. :YMHUG: I have been through the experience of syringe feeding a hepatic lipidosis cat to health again. He was a cat from our local shelter. He knew me a bit as I was a volunteer there, but he wasn't my own cat. The shelter could not afford a feeding tube, so the option was having PTS or me trying to syringe feed him. He was a good sized Maine Coon so needed to eat a fair amount. The vet who gave me lots of phone consult time for free told me I needed to get at least a full can of the Recovery RS in him every day. It meant syringe feeding small amount 6-8 times every day. In this case, it took two and a half weeks of this, some cats take more, some less. After a week and a half, I would put down a little bit of different food every day to see if he was interested in eating on his own. I knew he was better when he finally started eating on his own.

Fatty liver disease cats do not want to eat because the process going on in their liver makes things taste like bile. You have to get enough food in them to stop the degeneration. The cat will not be happy with the feeding but you have to persist. I was lucky in that this kitty decided to try to "hide" from me in a laundry basket. That made the perfect container to feed him in. I was also lucky that this cat wasn't feeling his normal self. When I heard from the people who later adopted him, I found out he can be a devil at the vets. Apparently he was #2 on the list of worst cats at that vet. :lol: When he first came into the shelter he had a "fractious" sign on his cage. But he was a sweetie at my place.

However, the only thing I was dealing with was hepatic lipidosis. There were no other underlying medical conditions or medications needed. The reason the cat stopped eating was that he was a social eater and wouldn't eat without people around. The shelter was not the best environment for him.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

{{{Jennifer}}}:

My heart breaks as I read your condo. I lost my beloved Kisa to hepatic lipidosis last year. We did go the feeding route, but I'm afraid we did it too late in the process to save him. If you somehow manage to arrange for the feeding tube, please be sure to ask the vet that does it to give you an honest assessment of the chances of success - i.e. are you doing it too late? I'm not trying to frighten you or change your mind, but I wish someone had told me it was too late for Kisa. It would have saved all of us a lot of misery, and money, too (although I don't begrudge a penny of what I spent - I just wish it had saved him). Getting enough food into him, and enough fluids, is critical. The fact that he was holding down what you were syringe feeding is a really good sign that it might work. Kisa couldn't hold anything down, even with the tube. I will be praying that you can save Cain, whatever route you go. Miracles do happen. Just hang in there and try to remember to look at the situation with your head and not just your heart. Sending lots of healing vines and many, many hugs. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

I'll send an email to Karrie.
Hang in there, Jennifer.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

I am sending prayers for you and Cain. I am hoping he gets better.

Terri

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Thanks everyone. :YMHUG:

Well I took him home. I went by my vet's office and I talked with the vet a bit. Cain was a bit more active. I was scratching at his side and he moved more to get his head in range. His hind legs aren't supporting him well. He hasn't been on methylcobalamin for a week so he's nearly walking on his hocks. Cain meowed a bit more in the carrier than he has this week and when I got him home he investigated the house for a brief bit before deciding to hide a bit in the bathroom. I got another syringe of recovery rs in him with some extra methycobalamin mixed in. I'm not sure if he can jump on my bed right now. I'll have to see. I hope he can make it to the litter box but I'll clean up if he can't.

The vet suggested I take him home today and see if he wants to eat in a less stressful environment. (There were no dogs near him at first but today there were two, one due to being hit by a car and I think the other was there to get neutered.) Cain got another set of subq fluids and he was more active and looking around on the table than earlier this week. I'm to bring him back in tomorrow at noon and then we're going to decide. The vet wants to see if there's any improvement.

They couldn't give me a prescription for buprenex. It requires more paperwork than they have on hand to just give it to me. That's what he said anyways. The pharmacy I get Brownie's meds from can probably get it for them but it'll take a day or two at least for shipping (Or I drive up there). I'll see if I should order it tomorrow depending on how the visit goes. Neither for the ondansetron either. They didn't have it on hand. I'm not a very argumentative person so sorry. Cain did get another cerenia shot and one for pain which I don't know what that is.

Still waiting on the other vet to call but with what I've seen on the internet, the price of that is just so astronomically out of my range.

I need to make a box for him and see if he'll curl up in that. He was trying to curl up in the small litter box again, I think mainly right after I syringe fed him to hide.

 

Re: 3/10 Cain AMBG 289 Staying overnight

Hi Jennifer,
I heard from a couple of people about your Cain and popped in as soon as I could.

It looks like Cain is suffering from Pancreatitis which is incredibly painful and Feline Hepatic Lipidosis. They often go hand in hand. Also diabetes and Pancreatitis also.

Pancreatitis and Feline Hepatic Lipidosis are life threatening and these are your priorities. All the while ensure that he does not go into Diabetic Keto Acidosis. The Pancreatis Support Group is knowledgeable on this (but are not experts like FDMB advisors are) so keep the FDMB group updated daily to make sure Cain isn't throwing ketones. Get through the crisis now. One day at a time.

I was going to ask you to join two groups but I'm going to suggest just one. It is a yahoo group named Feline Pancreatitis Support https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fel ... pport/info. Make sure you join this one and not the other pancreatitis group. They have experts that participate on both the pancreatitis and Yahoo Feline Assisted Feeding group (the other group I was going to ask you to join). I know you are overwhelmed so you will get one stop advice here. They can also give advice on food that is best for maximizing calories but low carb and low fat for Cain. Join it today and post an intro. I will give them a heads up that you will be joining.

The good thing is that you are not alone. These groups saved Maverick's life in 2008. Vets were not the reason why he lived but in fact were the reasons he almost died. We are very lucky that we have access to groups that have such a depth of experience and knowledge.

It will be a rocky few weeks but you will get through this. Its overwhelming but take it one day at a time. We are here for emotional support too.

Pancreatitis is horribly painful. Feline Hepatic Lipidosis is extremely nauseating and most cats need Cerenia for vomiting and also Ondansetron for nausea. Most average vets know nothing about nausea in cats and treat it with just pepcid or a drug that is ineffective for cats called reglan/metoclopromide. Calories are critical for FHL recovery. But high calorie food is high in fat which inflames and worsens pancreatitis. Pancreatitis and FHL need fluid subq support. You will need fluids probably to avoid Diabetic Keto Acidosis. The Pancreatitis group can walk you through giving fluids at home and save a fortune and keep Cain calm. He will do much better than you will. But again remember you are not alone.

Feeding tubes sound scary but they are amazing. Cain will adjust faster than you. The Pancreatitis group can help you if you have any questions. Medications and food bypass the mouth. You can feed when you need to. Very little stress. They take 15 minutes to place. They can stay in a long time - 3 months minimum but most likely you will only need one for four to five weeks. Some cats do recover without a feeding tube but it takes a lot more energy and time and more stress. If you can find the money - a loan even that you pay back over a year it is worth all the tears. I had to borrow money from my mom for Maverick's surgery (long story) and my husband didn't talk to me for a week. PS Get an E-TUBE not a PEG tube.

Hang in there. Cain will fight through this. Maverick was literally at deaths door, so Jaundiced he looked orange - he was beyond yellow. I had the support of amazing people that I would trust with all of my cats lives. Do not give up and fight with him. You have a lot of people wanting Cain to get better.

I'm emailing the group co-owner now so please post over there asap!!!!!!! https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fel ... pport/info

 

Since 2008 I have seen a hundred cats recover from FHL. Some do not survive but it is a very small number. It sounds to me from reading that Cain has fight in him and is an excellent candidate for a tube and recovery.

Sorry I forgot to include the URL to the pancreatitis group. I edited my post above and posting here just in case https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Fel ... pport/info

 

Thanks, Karrie! I was just about to post the link to the Feline Pancreatitis Support group when I saw your p.s.
Thanks so much for stopping in. I hope that Jennifer will follow through.

:YMHUG: :YMHUG:

Ella & Rusty

 

Wonderful advice and info from Karrie! Sending tons of prayers for you and Cain, Jennifer.

 

Well I heard back from the other vet and the feeding tune would possibly be in my range. If I didn't have probably $700 at least to pay off for my vet. It's $350 for the tube though the other vet said if he wasn't getting better after that as well that maybe an ultrasound would be needed (at said same cost). She was trying to figure out what caused it and really other than suddenly not wanting to eat, I have no clue.

Karrie, I truly appreciate the info and link to the group. I truly do. I just don't know where I can get $350. I mean if I get lucky and some stuff sells on ebay fast by monday, maybe, but Dad has been paying for everything. And my food, money to buy things, my bills, the upcoming specialist for me at the end of the month (no insurance for that one so yeah upfront it's $250 for me per visit), so on and so forth. I've been unemployed for years. And unless I can somehow convince Dad that a feeding tube is good for Cain, or I magically get $350, I don't think getting a feeding tube is going to happen. I really want to help him. :cry:

I guess in the mean time I'll work on putting some stuff up on eBay and see about getting Cain to eat more food. He went and hid on me again.

(Sorry if it sounds like I'm complaining a lot or something. I'm just crying a lot and I'm trying to keep up with this. I guess it's a good thing I don't work right cause I'd be useless.)

 

Jennifer, I am also a member of the Yahoo Feline Pancreatitis Support Group. They are a great bunch of people with a lot of knowledge. They are used to helping and supporting people with cats that have multiple issue. I really appreciate them, and I am sure you will too. I hope to see you posting over there. :YMHUG:

 

I will just add that the group here @ FDMB plus Karrie's groups plus Karrie plus so many people here at FDMB and DCIN and LLEF holding my hand (and others) LITERALLY SAVED TAWNY'S LIFE back in late 2011. Here is a link to one of those old posts Tawny really sick 2011 and from there you may be able to follow her 3 stays at the hospital and all she went thru, many around here remember it well. & Tawny was battling Ketones too. There are a lot of posts and it is a lot of reading with a lot of links to a lot of other helpful posts, but all the info was invaluable to us at the time. If you look at the Tawny posts from early November 2011 thru about mid-December or so you will learn a lot, then of course on into the first of 2012 I posted a lot about her recovery. Tawny had an e-tube (feeding tube) and we did great with it, it is not as big a deal as it sounds. She didn't need it for very long I don't think, if I remember, maybe less than 2 weeks, but it could have been a little longer.

Tawny has done beautifully since then up until just this past weekend, when according to the vet she had pancreatitis, but I syringe-fed her from Friday thru Tuesday, checked her for ketones like crazy (NONE...ketones are a serious thing and need to be closely monitored, especially when kitty is sick), and Tuesday she started eating on her own. Today she is great, gulping food and grooming herself.

Tawny, like Karrie's Maverick, was literally at death's door, more than once, during her 2011 illness. Please take advantage of the knowledge & support you have here, and from the other groups and links provided, which information and support has indeed helped to save more than one kitty.

& we'll be watching over you guys.

Desi & Tawny

 

jennifer, i just want to send you a little TLC. i know how stressful it is to try to figure out what the right thing to do is when you are faced with this kind of situation.

i have seen Karrie help several cats pull through FHL. She knows what she's talking about.

As far as why Cain stopped eating - that's classic pancreatitis. they feel nauseated and stop eating. it might be nothing more than that.

I'm wondering what shot he got for pain - if it was metacam, don't let them give a second shot. it's given for pain, but only one dose is approved for cats following surgery. It is effective in pain relief, but in more than 1 dose it can cause liver failure. No harm done with one, so don't be alarmed, but if that is what it was, don't allow another one.

hugs, julie

 

I put a request in to join that group. I even saw that one of my ongoing items sold on eBay. Granted it's only $25 and I have to split half with the person I'm selling for them, but it's a start.

Shoot keytones. I haven't even thought to check for those. Not lately. I need him to urinate first. They didn't check at the vet.

 

I'm glad you joined the group. I'll be watching for you. Yes, definitely check for ketones whenever you can.
I also agree with Karrie on the Ondansetron. See if the vet will give you a prescription for it. As I probably mentioned before it can be expensive but is not at Costco Pharmacy for some reason. I get it for like under 33 cents a pill and you give 1/4 of a pill at a time. And I agree with Karrie that for some reason most vets don't seem to understand about nausea. They ask if the cat is vomiting and if not they say then the cat is not nauseous. Some cats feel nauseous and then don't eat, and thus don't vomit. I would definitely look into Ondansetron.

 

I heard your membership was approved. Thank you for joining so quickly. The FPS and FAF groups are great but I have never seen a more amazing group than this one. the Lantus Land gang is special.

Just a heads up the Yahoo groups have strict guidelines about posting. If they think your posts infer that you are asking or hinting for financial support, they will not be approved. FDMB is different this way and actually do their own fund raising. Another reason why this group is so incredible.

I will be watching for updates. There will be more tears, but hopefully in the next couple weeks they will be tears of happiness and not just from worry and exhaustion. A lot of us have been where you are. Its not easy. Maybe your Dad will give you a loan instead of asking him to pay for it and pay it back over a year or two.

Stay strong. And remember we are here to provide emotional support too. When you get your feet on the ground I'll send you a link to the Yahoo Feline Assisted Feeding group where you can read some heart boosting success stories. They helped me get through the pity party days I had when Maverick was recovering. He had a long recovery with severe complications from the vet botching his PEG tube placement. He didn't tell me about e-tubes which have very few complications unlike PEG tubes.

 

Oh yeah that was fast.

Oh I'm not hinting for money. I'm just complaining I guess. Or venting. Not sure which. $20 feels like a big amount of money some days and here I owe hundreds to my vet. Yeah. It's one of my anxiety triggers seems like.

I'll try again and see if my vet will give me a prescription specifically for it. I think I have a Costco about 50mins away. I'll try to talk to my Dad about it tonight too but I can't guarantee I can change his mind.

Oh! I forgot, but my vet suggested I check for BG and if it's high to give him some insulin for it. ..which even if my vial is any good anymore, how much should I even consider?

 

Jennifer, if you're not already a member, you might also want to join the Facebook groups that deal with Feline Diabetes and Pancreatitis (there's a FB group for everything!)

Then you could do a fundraiser for Cain. People are so very generous, and if they know what's going on, many of them will be happy to try to help. Some may only give $5, but some give much more, and it does add up quickly.

I did one for China's dental and was just shocked at how wonderful people can be when they know someone needs help with their animal. The Fundraiser I used was YouCaring and there's another one called FundRazr

You wouldn't want to use both, but I was pleased with how easy You Caring was. They take a tiny bit in fees, but out of $500, I got about $485

Sending more vines for Cain and hope you can get him feeling better soon.

 

Sending many, many healing vines for Cain.

I do think it is critical to get the ondansetron. Also, I have no idea why your vet is saying getting buprenex requires a lot of paperwork. I gave our Gussie buprenorphine (which is what they should write the script for) for a few years for chronic pain and I never had any issue getting it. And that was as recent as last November. You do have to take a written prescription in since it is narcotic.

I had to use a feeding tube for one of our cats many years ago. He had liver cancer and eventually we had to help him cross because of it but the feeding tube gave us so much more time with him and it was good time .....and he started eating on his own again.

 

Okay, I talked to Dad about it. He doesn't think it'll help him. Every time someone needed a feeding tube it was end of life kind of thing. But, he'll help me pay for it IF the vet that would be doing it agrees that it'll help him. I told him I'll pay him back. I swear I'm about to cry again.

I'll call the other vet tomorrow morning. I'll try to get up earlier if I have to. (Hopefully I don't hit snooze too much.)

 

Sending tons of feel better vines for Cain, and hugs and strength and support for you. I know how exhausted and worried you must be.

 

I know you weren't hinting but that's how strict those yahoo groups are. They have to follow a terms of service and some groups follow it more strictly than others. Since you were new to joining the Yahoo group I thought I'd let you know right away so you didn't lose time getting advice.

Liver disease is horribly nauseating. Maverick recovered from it October 2008. My Dad got sick in 2009. He didn't eat solid food for six weeks. He was horribly nauseated - that was at the same time as the big H1N1 breakout pandemic scare. Turns out when my Dad finally got admitted and they found out what was wrong - it was liver disease. My Dad was able to verbalize how horrible he felt and how horrible things tasted. I expect Maverick felt the same way.

Ondansetron is in the plumbs guide as a drug prescribed for cats. Renowned vets have written on the need to treat nausea in cats. This is shown as showing interest in food but just licking or sniffing and walking away, lip licking or smacking, teeth grinding and even lots of swallowing. Nausea isn't just vomiting. Cerenia doesn't address true nausea - just acute vomiting. I paid $9 a pill up in Canada. It is worth its weight in platinum.

Your dad sounds pretty awesome.

 

Ah okies. Thanks for the heads up.

Well Cain is at the other vet today. She didn't feel a mass along the pancreas and she's sounding like he'll recover from the liver problems and we'll tackle the other cause after. At least I think so. I'm running on five hours of sleep today. He should be getting surgery soon and they'll call me as soon as he's awake to give me news. My vet is going to be handling the after care and checkups since she (the other vet) knows I'm not financially stable and can add to the tab at my vet. And if she needs to see me again, their rates are pretty good. And here's the better news: it's not going to be as expensive as quoted cause I already did the blood tests at my vet they would usually do with this surgery. So that knocks a $100 off easy.

Cain was sleeping next to me this morning. And he's alert and looking around so the other vet thought it was good and a good sign that he's fighting still. (That and him trying to run away while I was syringe feeding yesterday.)

The A&M test (spec fPL I think) still hasn't come back yet. I checked with my vet while I was paying them another down payment and letting them know that Cain was getting that feeding tube.

Yeah, my dad is pretty darn awesome.

BG last night was 383. I hope he drops back down when he gets to feeling better, but I'm prepared to get him back on insulin. I'll figure it out somehow.

I'll do a fresh thread soon as he's home. Just wanted to update here.

 

Wonderful news! Sending boatloads of prayers....I know you guys can beat this!!!

 

Thanks for the update, Jennifer. This is good news. We'll be sending positive thoughts and prayers for the surgery. Cain is a terrific trooper!

Hugs and scritches,

Ella & Rusty

 

Yah Jennifer and Cain!!! \M/

I didn't know that they were looking for a mass but happy to hear that he does not have one. And great news that the vet that is now seeing Cain thinks that the liver problem might not be that bad.

Sending you both prayers, love, light, and much healing back to good health.

 

Thanks for the update! I am so happy to hear that this vet is so optimistic And happy to hear that Cain was more alert and sleeping next to you - he will be so happy to be home. Mega vines for Cain, and strength vines for you. Big hug for your dad too :YMHUG:

 

This all sounds like good news. :smile: I'm so glad your dad is going to help and the vets are taking care. I'm sending tons of prayers and snowflakes and healing vines that this all works out and Cain WILL get better. You are an amazing bean and I'm sure Cain can feel that love.. Thanks for keeping us updated!1