? 3/4: AMPS: 324: Was having flat cycles all day due to bouncing. Now furshot! Depo question!

TankNRK

TankNRK

Member Since 2022
Previous Post:
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/3-3-amps-240-landos-cruising.274823/#post-3050655

Today I am FINALLY off work and can run lots of extra tests to gather data for how Lando's cycle functions on Lantus. I decided to increase .25u because of all the tests I've done I haven't seen him hit under 150, and since I'm off today I can monitor :)

However I am kind of confused as to why his numbers have sat steady for 4 hours without dropping lol!
Looking at the last time I could get 2 early tests in, it doesn't seem outside normality but I guess I just need to accept I don't know very much just yet and it's not going to be like Vetsulin was dropping like crazy at 4 hours in. Seems our PM cycles drop lower.

The last 2 or 3 days we've been seeing progress and the full effects of our last dose, starting to trend downward into blues and pre shots becoming lower as well. Peeing less and crying for food MUCH less! Things are going well.

We ordered calipers as well so looking forward to getting them next week.

Am I right to my understanding that when changing doses on Lantus I won't see the full effects for potentially 3 or so cycles? Which means that the response I see today may not necessarily be the same kind of response a couple days from now (ie he could trend lower or higher)?

Thanks to all my friends and happy Saturday!
 
It's good you increased. Looks like he decided to give you a flat high bounce cycle on the day you could do a curve. Cats! :rolleyes:


TankNRK said:
However I am kind of confused as to why his numbers have sat steady for 4 hours without dropping lol!
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He is bouncing today which is why you are seeing numbers that aren't budging. He does seem to be giving you active cycles at nights.

TankNRK said:
Am I right to my understanding that when changing doses on Lantus I won't see the full effects for potentially 3 or so cycles? Which means that the response I see today may not necessarily be the same kind of response a couple days from now (ie he could trend lower or higher)?
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Some cats react to a new dose in the very first cycle. But some cat take a full 6 or even 8 cycles to tell you what a dose can do for them.
 
Bandit's Mom said:
It's good you increased. Looks like he decided to give you a flat high bounce cycle on the day you could do a curve. Cats! :rolleyes:



He is bouncing today which is why you are seeing numbers that aren't budging. He does seem to be giving you active cycles at nights.


Some cats react to a new dose in the very first cycle. But some cat take a full 6 or even 8 cycles to tell you what a dose can do for them.
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LOL this is a lot of info!
So, he's having a flat high bounce cycle. What causes a flat cycle, is it something that just happens sometimes? Also, what's causing the bounce, could be have dropped low last night and I didn't know? Maybe from increasing today? This is all kind of new to me with switching to Lantus so recently haha! I never had "flat cycles" on Vetsulin.

I can't believe this lmao I've never even heard of a "flat high bounce cycle" of course it happens as soon as I can finally gather data :banghead:
 
TankNRK said:
So, he's having a flat high bounce cycle. What causes a flat cycle, is it something that just happens sometimes? Also, what's causing the bounce, could be have dropped low last night and I didn't know? Maybe from increasing today? This is all kind of new to me with switching to Lantus so recently haha! I never had "flat cycles" on Vetsulin.
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When a cat is bouncing you will see numbers that don't move a lot. Here is our "definition" of bouncing:

Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast. The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". Usually, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

To make matters more interesting (infuriating?), a bounce need not always happen in the cycle immediately after the cycle in which the low(er) numbers occurred. It can be delayed. Such fun!

Some cats can see an increase in the BG on cycle 2 or 3 after an increase. We call it New Dose Wonkiness (NDW). This sticky has more info on NDW as well as bouncing:
New Dose Wonkiness (NDW) and failed reductions

I know your head must be spinning with all this info. Don't worry about it. You will figure it out with time. After all Lantus is a totally different animal from Vetsulin.
 
Bandit's Mom said:
When a cat is bouncing you will see numbers that don't move a lot. Here is our "definition" of bouncing:

Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast. The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". Usually, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

To make matters more interesting (infuriating?), a bounce need not always happen in the cycle immediately after the cycle in which the low(er) numbers occurred. It can be delayed. Such fun!

Some cats can see an increase in the BG on cycle 2 or 3 after an increase. We call it New Dose Wonkiness (NDW). This sticky has more info on NDW as well as bouncing:
New Dose Wonkiness (NDW) and failed reductions

I know your head must be spinning with all this info. Don't worry about it. You will figure it out with time. After all Lantus is a totally different animal from Vetsulin.
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Thank you so much for taking the time to give me all that info! It's given me lots of insight. I didn't realize he could bounce from much prior cycles! 2 days ago during our PM cycle we had a beautiful 160 which I haven't seen in a long time so it could have been from that. I've always been aware of bounces but I sure haven't ever experience that delayed reaction!
Is the flat cycle being caused by the bounce?

I guess I'll know to watch for NDW in the next coming days haha.

I appreciate your knowledge today, I'm happy I got to spend the day learning SOMETHING since Lando decided he wasn't gonna give me too much information himself lol
 
Diane Tyler's Mom said:
Good luck with the increase Tank :cat:
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Thank you!!

Bandit's Mom said:
Yes. Today's flat and high numbers are because he is bouncing.


Oh, it's their mission to make it as difficult as possible for us! :rolleyes: Just when you think you have him figured out, he will change things around.
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Guess I can't complain <3 I'll go back to work for 2 days then be off again for another curve I can check in on him :) less frequent and heavy urination and less screaming for food are wins enough in my book for today!
 
I think we gave a furshot this pm! FML :arghh::banghead::p

In terms of a furshot: how does the depo respond to that tonight? I assume I could see wonky numbers in the next cycles and that'd be normal as the depo refills, but does the depo still help until the next cycle tomorrow AM? Thanks!
 
Why do you think it was a FS? Did some insulin get in? A furshot will disrupt the depot and cause higher numbers till the depot rebuilds. The depot will continue to affect the first part of tonight's cycle but not later in the cycle.
 
for a furshot.... Insulin does have a distinct smell to it, draw a tiny pinch up in a syringe and squirt in the air, you will smell the medicinal smell. get close to it. (smelling the vial is not the same, at least for me) give it a sniff if you havent done that yet. I had several times I was very unsure if my Kitkat got his dose or not, fur shot or good, so I would give him a good sniff after every injection ( I always liked that anyways, sniffing his neck:joyful:) If he smelt like my cat when i stuffed my nose in his injection site, good, if i detected the insulin smell, then it was a fur shot, or portion thereof. When i did smell it on him I never gave him another, it was just hard to say if he got a portion, not a chance i wanted to take. posted fs, and took it from there. :bighug:
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Why do you think it was a FS? Did some insulin get in? A furshot will disrupt the depot and cause higher numbers till the depot rebuilds. The depot will continue to affect the first part of tonight's cycle but not later in the cycle.
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Insulin smell, wet fur, and I noticed I popped the syringe in and OUT cause Lando moved when I did it lol
Not to mention that beautiful 417 this morning lol! XD
 
TankNRK said:
Insulin smell, wet fur, and I noticed I popped the syringe in and OUT cause Lando moved when I did it lol
Not to mention that beautiful 417 this morning lol! XD
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It happens, don't worry about it too much. I had a cat prior to Sly that was diabetic, and even after 3 or 4 years, it sometimes just happens, especially if they move.

I find that if I stick the needle in, press the plunger slowly and wait just 5 seconds before removing the syringe, you kinda have more assurance it went under the skin.
Then I wait about 5 seconds and smell the area I just dispensed into, no smell, you're good!
 
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