3. Lois and RIP-Java

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Lois and Java, Apr 9, 2017.

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  1. Phoebes (GA)

    Phoebes (GA) Well-Known Member

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    It's growing back now, I need it for dh. Will try to find picture I posted.
     
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  2. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Here's a few fresh shaved pics. He's on my lap begging for breakfast.
     

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  3. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I did shave down a patch on Sam after Steph explained it. The vet sitter found it really helpful.
     
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  4. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    I have considered shaving a few spots. He's not scared of the buzzers at all. Just a little strip would do if you plan on doing a few. If you keep it perpendicular to the floor or lengthwise with their ribs the hair in front of it will cover it naturally. But you have to push the hair forward right in front of it before shaving if you want it to be covered. Then do the same before giving the shot so you can see. I trimmed the hair that was covering it this time. But I still grip and pull up the skin and pet him the wrong way, against the hair flow, with the back of my shooting hand. Just be careful you don't poke yourself!
     
  5. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    @Yong , BOS?

    Thanks. Also, breakfast?!

    These kitties are so robust! Lucky you. Java's so bony now. You'd think he'd have loose skin from losing weight, 2# since diabetes dx, but it feels like he retracts his skin when I go for a shot.
     
  6. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    @Lois and Java it's the Balls of Steel award...check out Yong's recent thread...Bobbie and Bubba awarded it for her shot on that 115! :)
     
  7. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Lois,
    You might want to consider a little boost in Java's dose and try for one mid cycle test in the +5 to +7 range. I know that doesn't follow the plan suggested by your new vet but he had some better numbers up around 1.5+ u.
     
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  8. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I shot contemplated 1.5, have a feeling that I'm going to have to work to regain lost ground, up to 1.75, yet I already shot 1.25, after cutting a little spot with baby scissors. That was really helpful.

    I was looking at his SS before I shot, and wondering why his numbers PS kept getting worse the higher we went. Is it because of his age and the progression of the disease? I wish it was as simple as going back to giving him one unit and he would never go into the black.
     

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  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    That's a tough one, Lois. Not sure I have an answer. The middle numbers were better at higher doses. It could be his reaction to PZI - extreme at the ends of the cycles. Not sure if a depot insulin is something you want to try at this stage?
     
  10. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    It looks to me like the early months were the best. Lots more blues and yellows.

    If it's too much insulin it can create a Symogi effect. Right? I think so. That was the rationale for the mobile vet suggesting a fat one unit. Which I have already deviated from.

    I could not find the little spot that I cut with the baby scissors!
     
  11. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Well, there is actually some debate among researchers if the somogyi effect (bouncing) is even real. I think they just need to come study our spreadsheets to see it, but whatever...

    So yes, that can happen with too much insulin, but when it's happening you'll see swings from low to high, not just lots of high readings.
     
  12. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Omg yes it exists.
    Still with the SS Qs already... Jan. and Feb. were better. March and April, so many blacks.
    He's getting so debilitated.
     
  13. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I think some of it is just age, Lois. He does have a lot of other issues to deal with...really at this point, it's just about dosing around whatever he needs to help him be comfortable.
     
  14. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    They can argue against Somogyi all they want. The study where it's supposedly debunked (I read the PDF that was in another thread here somewhere) is based on a group of cats tightly regulated on Lantus. That's already a narrow group of kitties in an "artificial" lab situation. Real world data we see here on a multitude of SSs tells a far different story. They also refer to Somogyi as being a consequence of over dosing that results in very low BGs. We know it's broader than that.
     
  15. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    And they also set the requirement that the bounce numbers be lower than 50 and higher than 300. So any cat around Sam's ranges wouldn't qualify as bouncing. Nor any of the bounces that are caused by "lower than normal" or "more than 50%". Research is hard though. There have to be controls and parameters, and sometimes those things end up making it difficult to see the thing they're looking for.
     
  16. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree. I've been in a number of clinical trials myself and have seen how the parameters can eliminate what I know to be perfectly valid data.
     
  17. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Lois, I'm so sorry to hear that Java is struggling right now. I wish there was an easy way to fix all of this for both of you. Sending you and Java lots of love!
     
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  18. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    We're all rooting for you and Java. :)
     
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  19. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    IMG_20170421_075834.jpg IMG_20170421_093803.jpg
    This is what the traveling vet is taking as basis. I'm still half asleep shouldn't be writing I should be testing.
    Edit #1, AMPS, 571. better than those 700s.
    I'm filled with horror that it could be because I wasn't shooting properly.
    I think I'll start creeping up to 1.5.
    Edit #2, photos of Java this AM. He got up on the railing by himself and hung out with me for about an hour while I pulled weeds. This is our essential relationship. I do stuff and he hangs out with me.
    He's taken to lying on this pillow on the couch. I think he does not look very comfortable. Gabapentin now. I wanted to give him a little break this am since this it's his favorite time. It seems to be pretty sedating.
    Edit #3, he's more comfy now. Don't wait on the gabapentin.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
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  20. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    After I got back from yoga, we all had a nice afternoon hanging out in the backyard. Java seems creaky but was able to get comfortable. I brought a camping mat out to lie on the deck and read my book, and grab the chair cushion to put under my elbows. Java made it very clear that the chair cushion was for him, so I traded it for the cut up camping mat I'd put out for him.

    I've told my siblings this before, everything was forgiven when I was able to early retire, since everything that happened before got me to that point. I have such gratitude for being retired because I can spend all afternoon just hanging out on the deck or on the bed with the cats. I just appreciate every day with Java so much.

    Here he's looking more comfortable on that pillow.

    I was able to find the trimmed spot on his shoulder this morning!
     

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  21. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Sneaky black fur :p
     
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  22. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I love seeing pictures of your little old-man kitty! He's so handsome! Thank you for sharing!
     
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  23. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Thanks! I'm photographing him like crazy now that I have a smartphone, and I know that this is hospice care.
     

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  24. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Only reason I got a slightly smarter phone (still not full smartphone) was to have a better camera :smuggrin:. 5 megapixels :D. Those of you with real smartphone's may laugh now :p
     
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  25. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I got away with using my Nexus 7 tablet and a flip phone for years. I lost my flip phone somewhere in the Olympic National Park though. My Nexus 6 phone was on sale in Oregon, no tax, on the way home.

    Edit, do you know about mr. Money Mustache? Excellent Financial site. Has information about saving money on everything, including phones.
    http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/09/20/google-fi-review/
     
  26. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I only have a "pay as you go" dumb phone and am proud of it! ;) I like being inaccessible when I'm going about my business.
     
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  27. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    He's such a handsome boy!
     
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  28. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    That used to be me, but I really love having a smartphone now. I'm glad I waited though, because paying only like 20 bucks a month for complete access to everything is doable. There was no way I was ever going to get a cell phone when it was $70, 80, or more a month.
     
  29. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Will read that. :bookworm:
     
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  30. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    If you dig through there you also find information on Republic, and Ting, and the Moto phones. I read about them for a long time but I didn't bite.
     
  31. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It's still that expensive and more here. My dumb phone is rarely turned on. It's mostly for "emergencies". I don't text and feel no need to report my thoughts or what I'm doing to all and sundry.
     
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  32. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Well, you're probably sitting at a desk or table on your laptop, correct? To post that?
    I'm lying on my bed, dictating into my smartphone. It's awesome!
     
  33. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think my iPad has a dictation function but I've never tried to use it. Right now I'm at my 8 year old desk top iMac.
     
  34. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I didn't buy a home computer, a laptop until I retired in 2010. I was at the office so much, I just did everything on my office computer; I'd stay late if I had to do something time-consuming or complicated. So I've never set up a home office. I don't have a printer, I have to go to the library or Kinkos for that. I put my laptop on the dining room table, which is actually a cat perch and mail sorting surface.
    My father died in 1999, and a few years before that, I asked him what was the biggest technological advance he'd seen in his lifetime. He was an engineer, he was born in the thirties. I was sure he would say computers, because both my parents learned how to use them at the snowbird place they'd go to in Arizona.
    Know what it was? Electricity. His father had a big apple farm in Upstate New York, and they were the first family to get private electricity. A small City or town nearby outgrew its little Electric Plant, and my grandfather bought it and had it installed at his farm.
    I'm still Boggled that that.
     
  35. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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  36. StephG

    StephG Well-Known Member

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    Oh poor Java. Is he ok now?
     
  37. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I helped him onto the bed, and he ate some, and napped some. When I came back to check him he wasn't there almost had a heart attack. He was in litterbox, so, all that still working he got himself there.
    I have a huge bottle of B12. The traveling vet said to give him a shot every week or two weeks. I'm going to give him a shot tonight I think, because doesn't that make you feel better? He just had one two days ago.
     
  38. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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  39. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    He's been on and off the couch and up on my bed under his own steam. So that's good.

    421 at approx nadir.
     
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  40. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Poor baby! I remember our senior, also black cat, some jumps he would make he would kind of stand there stunned. Had a look on his face like "maybe I shouldn't have done that" because he did train us when he yowled he wanted down from somewhere he managed to get himself up to :smuggrin:.

    Side note for you Lois, from when I was reading about which form of B12 would be better for neuropathy :bookworm::
    Excerpt:
    1. Methylcobalamin
    This is the most active form in the human body. It converts homocysteine into methionine, which helps protect the cardiovascular system. Methylcobalamin also offers overall protection to the nervous system. This B-12 form can also cross the blood-brain barrier–without assistance–to protect brain cells. It contributes essential methyl groups needed for detoxification and to start the body’s biochemical reactions.

    2. Cyanocobalamin
    This synthetic version of vitamin B-12 is created in a lab, which makes it the cheapest supplement option. It offers the most stable form of B-12, although it does so through the presence of a cyanide molecule. While the amount of cyanide is not dangerous, it does require the body to expend energy to convert and remove it.

    Not trying to doubt it's helping or anything, just throwing some more information around :woot::bookworm: :cat:
     
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  41. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    You think I can just jump up to 1.75 tonight? Or fat 1.5 tonight, and 1.75 tomorrow?

    The traveling vet experience was helpful in certain ways, but not with regard to insulin. Her theory was that his Somogyi stop by going to a consistent lower dose, that he had when he was doing pretty well.

    I also now think it was a bad idea to take up the YA food. This is hospice care, he has lost so much weight. He likes the
    YA. I would like to put YA down, and not even take it out for the two hours pretest, but let him free feed on it. That's what I was doing for the first couple of months anyway.

    I was going to spend the day with the cats, doing an Earth Day gardening project. I talk to my disabled cousin in Michigan every Sat. While talking, I realized I could make it to the 11:45 ferry to the SF Science March. They had to put two additional ferries into service to handle the number of people going to the March! That's the gold Dome of the SF City Hall in the distance. It was a big March.
     

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  42. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Some good posters. Coral not coal is mine. I made it on the ferry, with a little help from friends I ran into in line.
     

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    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
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  43. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think that in Java's situation your goal is to keep him happy so put out the YA if he likes it and let him eat as much as he wants whenever. Just adjust his insulin dose around that. Lots of people here have to dose around meds needed for other health issues. I'd put senior nutritional requirements up there as an issue to work around.

    Hurray for attending the Science March!!
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  44. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Excellent!
     
  45. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    There were quite a few people in lab coats carrying signs or had on the lab coat "mad scientist." Heh.

    Do you think I can jump up to 1.75 tonight
    Kris?
     
  46. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    I agree :), if he enjoys it let him eat it :cat:. I think you're OK to do the 1.75U tonight, Lois. He has been a bit higher lately, might make him feel a little better tonight :bighug: even if it's just to low-mid pinks!
     
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  47. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    That's so cool, Lois! I wish I could have gone to one. I love that you just met some folks who helped make a sign...the community part of these marches and protests is wonderful.

    I'm with everyone else here...do what Java wants to do. Let him have what he wants to have. Dose around it, because you know the goal is to keep him comfortable and happy. I think you could do 1.75 too.
     
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  48. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yep! Go with 1.75 u. :)
     
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  49. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    It was a surprise to run into Jean and Jim in the ferry line. (Jim's a retired middle school science teacher.) The ferry has tables with seats, we had a nice 4th person stranger with us at our table too. J&Js Lab just had a cancerous spleen rupture, and has 2 - 4 months left to live. He's getting everything he wants.

    I'm throwing everything out the window. I put down some YA for Java and he was very happy to have it. When I pulled the shower curtain aside, he was waiting, just like old times. He'd jump in the tub to lap water, even sometimes get into the shower with me, or sit on the edge of the tub. He's too weak to jump into the tub now, but his water glass got Super Fresh cold water.

    I think 1.75 is good, got to get these numbers down.
     
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  50. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    @#$&+*#?!! Fur shot.
    Found the trimmed circle, shot, counted to ten with a needle still in, then ... wet on the other side of the pulled skin, Band-aid smell.
    He's been so dang high.
    I think I'm going to shoot again. .5 or .75.
    .5 just to get something in there. Dammit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017
  51. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    No I'm not. I've been experimenting squirting measured amounts of water on his fur. I'm pretty sure he got some in there, better to be safe. Hmm could do .5 into his scruff where the absorption rate isn't as good. Very dismayed. No, no extra shot.
     
  52. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oh Lois! I'm so sorry about the fur shot, but I heartily agree with your new treatment plan. I love the idea of giving Java the insulin he needs to stay comfortable, and the food he wants. As much as he wants and whenever he wants it. My only caution would be to make sure he's hydrated since dry food is so.....dry. But don't the subq fluids take care of that anyway? Looks and sounds like you had a great day at the march! And don't worry too much about the fur shot. Tomorrow is a new day!
     
  53. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Thanks + argh.
    PMPS 639 to 594 at +5.
    It could be worse. (Might be in am.)
    Java likes to drink water, and ringers.
     
  54. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Hi Lois, I had a hard time with fur shots too. I know you shaved a small patch, but maybe a bigger patch would be easier? I actually had a huge patch shaved on Colin, across his scruff and a couple inches wide. Wasn't pretty, but it was sooo much easier to see exactly where the needle went in and that it stayed in and didn't stick out the other side. You wouldn't have to go that big of course, but maybe an inch or two square?
    In this pic the fur had started growing back, but you can still see what I mean.

    image.jpg
     
  55. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I really like this plan for Java, Lois. Don't worry about the fur shot. You'll be dosing again soon.
     
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  56. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Fur shots happen...and you know Java is in a happy place today with YA back and his favorite water out for him! You'll dose tonight and all will be well. :bighug:
     
  57. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Sharon14, good idea. Maybe I can find someone with a shaver via nextdoor dot com so I don't have to take him to vet.
    Up at 5:00 to take up wet food but leave down YA, he was sitting in front of the door, willing it to open. No way was I going out, even though first birds singing. He rejected water, so I tried slurried pate. He lapped some, settled down on heating pad.
    This am, 581. Interesting it's not higher. It's better than 700s!
    And now we're heading outside for morning water.
     
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  58. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    #@$&*!?&#
    690 at +6
    This was one that I would swear on a stack of Bibles in court was not a fur shot.
    But it must've been unless there's something going on with shooting him on his side.
     
  59. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    It might not be a fur shot. It might just be where he's at right now. He's gone from 1.2 to 1.75 this week. That's fine and appropriate, but it is a change, and the number you got might just be how his body is responding today. This was his first dose at 1.75 in a while. Give it a couple more cycles, and let's see what he's doing then.
     
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  60. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    https://www.bd.com/us/diabetes/page.aspx?cat=7001&id=7374
    "... because it is easier for the owner to mistakenly inject into muscle or skin. Any of these would interfere with proper insulin absorption. The recommendation is to NOT use the scruff as an injection site."
    I"m not using the scruff, but maybe I'm injecting into muscle or skin?
    I've texted the traveling vet, and contacted the people in the neighborhood who responded me when I was asking for help testing and shooting, when my friend whose house burned down was visiting. I'm really anxious about getting tonight shot's right.
     
  61. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Is it sunny there? I'll fly down and help! (It's pouring here...as usual :oops:)
     
  62. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    But why wouldn't it go down? Oh god, have a completely effed him up ? I basically threw the traveling vet's recommendation to only give him 1.2 out the window (she amended to 1.5 on 4/19, said don't go over 1.5, don't test after eating, which I knew). Her whole theory was that a lower dose would minimize the Symogyi.
    He looks so bad. As in, this might be it, bad.
     
  63. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    We're crossing in the posting. Where are you again? I'll go click on your photo after I send this.
    Hm, no info. Seattle? Portland?
     
  64. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    You did not eff him up! We all adjust doses and do the best we can to figure out what our cats need! You lowered the dose based on a reasonable theory. You gave it some time to work, looked at his numbers, and are now adjusting again. That's how this whole thing works.

    I'm up in Seattle. Although I'll be in Oakland next week for a conference (please please please let there be sunshine!)
     
  65. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oakland's 25 miles away. That's where I worked for 25 years. I'm in Marin. You want to try to rendez-vous? Actually, I'll be in Berkeley, near the Claremont Hotel, on Wednesday next week. But I'm guessing you're at the Marriott downtown Oakland.
    Edit - or if you have time, I'm happy to be a tour guide.
     
  66. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    As for why it wouldn't go down, here are my theories:
    1. He's 20 years old, and things work differently as we age.
    2. He's "stuck" right now (this happens for most cats at different times in the FD journey), and you'll need to systematically raise his dose for awhile to get to his breakthrough dose and get him moving again. Sam was stuck from 2/7 to 3/5, so I had to just keep raising the dose. There are a few cycles in there where his numbers go up instead of down.
    3. He's having a flat cycle after a low (this one isn't true for Java right now, but it's another thing that can cause a higher mid-cycle number)
     
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  67. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oh my gosh! I would love to meet you!!! Let me check where we're staying....
     
  68. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Lots to see in the Bay Area. I know about/can show: Berkeley, esp North Berkeley, UC Berk campus, Claremont Hotel/ College Ave/Elmwood area, Could meet you in SF, me via Ferry, you via BART, at the Hyatt in the Embarcadero area, go on transit to stuff in SF. Pick you up somewhere, show you Marin. How much time do you have? Sonoma, and wine tasting, etc., Napa too for that matter, isn't far away. Muir Woods, Pt. Reyes, Tiburon, Mill Valley, Fairfax, all right here. If you want actual ocean, Rodeo Beach isn't far. Or go sit on the porch at Cavallo Point and just look at the GG Bridge. Lots to do around here. Or come over and hang out with a book with my old cat!!
    Edit, I have to be home by 7 to test, shoot Java, and I like to home mid day to test, feed.
    Edit, there's a lot to do and see in Oakland, in the old section, Chinatown, and Jack London Square, but you can do that on foot with conference people. Assuming you're downtown Oakland and not out by the airport.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
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  69. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    A meet up would be a lot of fun for you two! :)
     
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  70. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    My weather app says 50% chance rain Monday, then sunny for the next week. Ugh, warming up to mid-70s by next weekend. I love the cool rainy weather!
     
  71. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    It looks like I left the hotel info is at the office, but the conference is Monday and Tuesday at Preservation Park. We wouldn't have a lot of time (and I definitely understand the need to be home for shots and monitoring!). I haven't been there before, but I imagine the BART wouldn't be too hard to figure out. I'll message you the hotel info tomorrow and we can see if we can make something work out. Everyone else should come too! Everybody fly to SF! We can have a prozinc party! :);)
     
  72. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Back to Java's BG, but I thought the only explanation for BG that does not go down at approx nadir was a fur shot.
     
  73. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    That's the easiest explanation, but there are other possibilities too. Oh, and also if the cat gets food right before a mid-cycle test, especially if it's MC or HC food. So there's a 4th possibility. Or is that 5 if we count fur shot?
     
  74. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Oh yeah, we would have Commission retreats at Preservation Park. It's nice. It's just a hair (like a block) out of right-downtown. Have you been to the Bay Area before? Is there anything on your bucket list of must-see?
    Also, I'm thinking, like, you're not coming tomorrow and Tuesday, or are you? It's fine if you are, just wondering.
    IMHO stuff not to miss: BART to SF Ferry Bldg. Claremont Hotel, though more of a during the day thing. Cavallo POint. Okay, just realized I'd list everything I already listed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
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  75. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Trying to get Java to eat.... need to hang up laundry....
     
  76. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Ohhh what fun! I wish I was closer so I could join you! :) Make sure you take pictures and post them so we can all feel like we were there!
     
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  77. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    Yes! Photos!
     
  78. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    I love to photograph stuff!
    Java ate a tablespoon or two of food. We went outside and he gave me the slip while I was hanging stuff on the line, I found him crouched in a kind of culvert between two neighbor's property, keeping quiet so a dog/walker wouldn't see him. Smart cat. I didn't want him in the tunnel though - I think that's where he was when I couldn't find him earlier in the day. I'm a terrible story teller, anyway, he made a beeline for this major storm drain across the street that the raccoons use as a highway. OMG! I honestly am worried that he's trying to End It.
     
  79. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Here goes. Testing. Edits to come.
     
  80. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Not tomorrow - next Monday (May 1). Tell him he can't end it before I get there!
     
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  81. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    736. He slurped maybe a teaspoon or two of food slurry. He wants to go outside, and I did go out with him for 5 minutes, but he barely drank water and wants to walk around, go under decks. No.
    I put on my camping headlamp and shot with him in my lap like a baby. I saw the needle go in the skin. I could feel the needle between the pulled up skin. I held the needle in for 10 seconds. Please let this insulin do some good.
    Crum, I didn't smell. Off to check.
    No smell. Strong heartbeat.
     
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  82. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Mobile vet text. Thoughts?
    The first one is that she didn't get that its literal, the fur shots.
    Oh, and I tested for ketones just after doing the blood test, negative.
    "He may need regular insulin at the emergency clinic to get under control if you haven't been able to get the pzi in for a few days. It also may be time to try glargine. If he has ketones I would recommend the emergency clinic to get under control. The pzi may not last long enough for him. I can call glargine in tomorrow to a local pharmacy. Also pancreatitis can cause a loss of diabetic control and often needs hospitalization. It can cause decreased appetite and very high glucose. I am not available until Monday evening."
     
  83. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Well, she mentioned Lantus (glargine). Do you have the wherewithal to try it? It shouldn't be a difficult transition except that the dosing has to be as close to 12/12 as you can manage. It's gentle, long lasting and might smooth him out.
     
  84. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    All the things going through my head and heart are, different vial makes no difference; every 12 hours can be done tho I have liked the flexibility of +/- one hr w pzi; is he strong enough to make a change like this, will it help him, is he at the end, let him go?
    Edit, his respiration and heartbeat are normal, 28 and 132, 144 respectively. He ate another teaspoon of food, I'm warming the LRS, which he was on track to get this evening anyway.
     
  85. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Lots of things to sleep on. He's so debilitated, what am I willing to put him through, what are the possibilities a good quality of life. Today's really the first that life seem to suck for him. Is eating teaspoons of food at a time. Could the Lantus actually turn tide, what about recovery from the profound neuropathy, is that even possible at his age, condition.
    357 at +5,thank god, he ate a tiny bit more. I'm nearly catatonic with fatigue...
     
  86. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    I don't know what to say about the Lantus. I do think it might help him smooth out some. Why not post on the Lantus board and kind of give a run down of Java's recent issues and what's going on and ask for their input?

    I'll tell you this, Lois, I think you will really KNOW when it's time to say goodbye. I tortured myself over Gypsy for about a month, back and forth over what to do for her. When the end came, I KNEW. She stopped eating completely, went and hid in the house and wouldn't come out at all. She didn't even complain when I took her to the vet....and I knew. I know you're going through a lot right now and you're trying to balance out what Java needs with whether or not it's his time...but I think he'll tell you. Another thing that helped was something Sue told me at the time...Whatever decision you make will be the right one, because it was made from love. I don't know if any of that helps you, but somehow, what Sue said set me free to make that final decision when it was time...

    How does he seem besides numbers? Is he acting happy at times? I know he's on a lot of meds, but is he cleaning, sleeping, lying in the sun, doing any of his favorite things? Will he still eat the YA?

    Sending you :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:, Lois.
     
  87. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
    It's so hard with an older kitty. As Rachel said, you'll know. I recently lost DJ who was 24. His condition had started to deteriorate in the last few months and I kept going back and forth on what to do. He was still eating and going out in the sun, but losing weight, not too active, but didn't seem to be in pain, so we just did what you are doing now, enjoyed everyday best as we could. He will tell you when he's ready for the next journey.

    As for an insulin switch, I'm wondering if you choose to switch to a depot insulin if lev might be a better choice? Only wondering because some say since Lantus is acidic it can sting some cats and in his condition maybe you don't want to risk that slight possibility? If you want I can tag a couple Lantus users that have more knowledge dealing with multiple issues to give you some insight.
     
  88. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    You've had some great advice from Rachel and Sharon.
     
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  89. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Yes, please, could you? That would be very kind. I don't know what lev is. (Which dictation put down as, I don't know what love is, which is making me laugh while I'm crying.)
     
  90. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Lev is Levemir. It's an insulin very similar to Lantus and the Lev users hang out in the Lantus forum since they are both depot insulins. It's often used for cats with acro or IAA since they require higher doses and it does sting less than Lantus at higher doses. :)
     
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  91. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    First the good news, the shot was successful, and he was 357 around midnight. I just gave him 1.75 repeating the same technique, pretty sure insulin went in. When I got up, he was sitting on the table in front of his water glass looking longingly outside. I'm not sure he could have done that yesterday or last night. He ate his wet food readily, it was a job getting him to eat at all yesterday. I gave him Gabapentin right after the insulin, and he went into the bedroom and jumped up on my bed. He's been staying away from the bedroom in favor of the pillow on the couch. I did 10-15 minutes of outdoor errands before offering to let him go outside, taking him from pillow to door. He looked, turned around and went back to the pillow.
    On the minus side, I hear an occasional wheeze or rattle in his breathing that wasn't there before. I think that might be a side effect of Sub-Q fluid? Have to look up.
     
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  92. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2015
    Hi Lois, Sharon asked me to weigh in since we were on ProZinc and switched to Lantus. I skimmed through this thread and my gut reaction is to not switch him at this point. The reason is with ProZinc being an in/out insulin, you are able to adjust his dose more quickly than you are going to be able to do with Lantus since he eats dry, you'd have to follow SLGS method and the dose would be held for 7 days unless of course he would go under 68 on the pet meter. With Lantus the dosing needs to be consistent and with him not eating well right now, you can alter the ProZinc dose accordingly.

    Just my two cents worth and I am sending lots of hugs to you and Java. Obviously he is very bonded to you and you to him and it is so hard to see them start to fail. I do want to give you my favorite shot technique video. I was having lots of FS close together and after I saw this one, I didn't have anymore problems.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_3TLtN8XYo

    :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  93. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Just had 30 minute conversation with the mobile vet. I'm feeling more positive. Am starting Lantus tomorrow. Decreasing Gabapentin, see if less sedating. Have things to do before nadir test between noon and one.
     
  94. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Go read all the Lantus stickies, Lois. You need a totally different mind set. I've often compared it to steering a tank rather than a sports car (the in and out insulins like PZI). Good luck!! I can help if you need it but the Lantus forum is a great resource. I suggest you post there too.
     
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  95. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Wow! All righty, well I would post in Lantus forum to let them know what's going on (give them kind of a run down) and get their suggestions. I really hope it works well and helps Java be more comfortable! Don't forget to check in with us here when you can...I'll try to check in on you over there, (I lurk over there to keep an eye on my friends who have switched) but sometimes I miss things! :bighug:
     
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  96. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Since you're going ahead with the switch, write up a post on the Lantus forum and give a little history. I'll tag a few peeps there (if necessary)so they don't have to wade through this long thread. In fact one that I'd tag is Tricia who, I think, lives in your neck of the woods.
     
  97. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Good luck Lois! Please check in here! Like Rachel, I will try to lurk over there to find you :):bighug:
     
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  98. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2016
    Just out of yoga, where, removed from everything, I felt that the thing to do is let it be It now, or tomorrow. But I'm not sure either. I'm trying to imagine the future, six months, a year from now, will I be feeling good or bad about lots more blood test sticks to Java, daily subcutaneous fluids, experiments trying to find something that helps with the pain and his hind legs and hips without sedating him to a near comatose state, and somehow trying to get weight on him. He was 10 pounds the last time I saw Dave the vet, and 8 pounds two weeks ago with the mobile vet. I feel sure he's lost more weight in those two weeks.

    The problem is, he clearly feels crummy, and yesterday was the lowest ever, but if his BG is handled better, and I'm not effing up the shots, can he go back to his old man Pursuits of sleeping, happily going out in the morning and surveying his kingdom and drinking rainwater..... This totally sucks.
     
  99. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Argh. Home and this.
     

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  100. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    @Kris & Teasel , mobile vet said start with 1 U Lantus once a day for 3 days to start. Sound right? I need to go read.
    I need to decide.
     
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