? 6/10 Jessi AMPS 236, +2 97 +4 93, PMPS 254 +1 232, +2 161, +3.5 111, +6 180, Can I sleep now?

Stefania S

Active Member
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...6-3-75-111-dropping-fast.278390/#post-3079098

And here I was worried that the increase wasn't enough! What the heck! Preshot is already so much lower.

Actually, confession, I was so tired after 3 hours of sleep again, and so focused on getting the shot done, I forgot to pre-test. I know I know, I'm kicking myself for that. I think also a part of me was a little too complacent, assuming it was in the 300s...yikes! And maybe several days of no testing got me out of the habit. :(

I hope there is at least one senior member somewhere online just in case this gets a little too rapid.

Fed a full meal, half she ate before the shot, a quarter she ate a little bit after. There is still a small spoonful left in her dish. Waiting before feeding again.

Maybe her AM meal should be half and then give the other half an hour later to keep her hungrier?

And to think, I was contemplating going back to sleep for an hour or so. :eek:
 
191 is still a comfortable number. Do not fill her up. You want her to be ready to eat a little every hour - even if it's only tsp of food. Let's see where she is at +2.
 
191 is still a comfortable number. Do not fill her up. You want her to be ready to eat a little every hour - even if it's only tsp of food. Let's see where she is at +2.

I got nervous when I saw the 135 and fed her a little more. Too soon?

It's just so soon after the shot for numbers to go down so quickly. Same thing happened last night but a little later.
 
little bump maybe, hopefully, 105, or just a meter variance?

how long does it take for food to become glucose from the moment they start eating?

sometimes BG spikes immediately after she eats, sometimes they take longer, other times much longer. Is that a question of how much insulin is released into the blood? are there other factors?
 
Feed her only 1tsp and not more. It's still early in the cycle and you don't want her getting too full to eat at +3, +4 etc.
 
You mean, give her a tspn now, again?

Why do you think these early drops are happening? They have happened before, but it doesn't seem normal for Lantus, does it?

Could changing injection site be a factor also?
 
You mean, give her a tspn now, again?
Sorry. I meant, feed her only 1tsp when giving her snacks after tests and not more.

Why do you think these early drops are happening? They have happened before, but it doesn't seem normal for Lantus, does it?
Some cats can and do dive with Lantus also. It's not anything to worry about. Once their bodies get used to lower numbers, they will "flatten out".

Could changing injection site be a factor also?
Some people have reported that the injection site makes a difference while others have found that it doesn't.

Good to see the lovely green surf today!
 
+3.5 95

Fed her again but had to entice her with treats on top. She's definitely not so hungry now. Oops! I can't seem to get the feeding thing down. I need a tutorial.

Maybe her preshot meals should be half the amount of what they usually are then divide the second half into 2 fed at intervals of half hours or an hour...then open another can and divide that into 4 to extend through to +6....???
 
Maybe her preshot meals should be half the amount of what they usually are then divide the second half into 2 fed at intervals of half hours or an hour...then open another can and divide that into 4 to extend through to +6....???
Yes. Reduce portion sizes overall. Feed largest meal at PS (but not so much that she will turn up her nose at food later) and then a tsp each at +1 and +2.
 
Yes. Reduce portion sizes overall. Feed largest meal at PS (but not so much that she will turn up her nose at food later) and then a tsp each at +1 and +2.
It seems to be hard to break us from the habit of feeding a lot before the shot. It goes back before insulin when I was feeding her as much as she wanted whenever she wanted because she was losing weight. And even before that because she needed lots of small frequent meals.

Mostly, I have to get over the fear of not feeding her enough especially since with Caninsulin the more I fed her at PS the better!

But I can do it. Maybe after you tell me patiently for the 20th time, I will have enough courage and trust to feed her less at PS.:p
 
Looks like we're heading up now +6 151

we did it! :woot:

Now I just hope we don't swing the other way! :p so much for the nadir at +6, and all we did was increase by .25 whoah!

I think this is a good dose for now, but time will tell, I guess. At least we avoided a reduction for now. That was some nice surfing in safe numbers. Just not what I expected today on 3 hours of sleep again! :eek:
 
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question about feeding, ok, I have asked this question before, so if you have answered it already, I apologize.

I've been told not to feed after nadir, but this is super hard for me to do especially when Jessi gets really hungry, which is usually in the afternoon several hours after her last meal and anywhere from +6 to +8. I understand the reasoning of not feeding but it's hard for her. She is also underweight and has all kinds of digestive issues. We have been doing frequent small meals throughout the day for many years. She is used to eating every 3-4 hours except for when I am asleep, when she could go 5 at the most in recent years, without having major stomach upset. I understand that as they get regulated they can eat less and this is a good thing. I also see that in some ways her digestive issues are better and she doesn't need as much food. I can hold off until the ps meal if it's important, but I know it stresses her to wait more than 3 or 4 hours to eat.

What are the down sides of feeding after nadir?

How do you calculate the nadir when the low point is way before +6?

Can I give her at least a half meal before her next PS meal which is in about 4 hours?
 
Hi Stefania,

Good to see you and Jessi back! :) Glad to see you're back to blues and greens so soon.
Hope Jessi’s ulcer is not bothering her too much.
I had this written out for you a couple of days back. I meant to post it on the older thread but since you look like you’re out of the woods for this cycle, I’m posting here

Most of the feeding suggestions might have already been covered by experienced members here. It took me some time to incorporate them properly since I was used to feeding Shen only dry food pre-diabetes and there was no fixed timing or amount for feeding. There was no concept of snacks either :D

Even though Shen seems more or less regulated now, I’m still having to experiment with his feeding times to bring his BG to the best levels possible. I didn’t think I’d be discontent with his current BGs but greens really are addictive after you get used to seeing and managing them.

Shen is around 6.5 kgs (~14.3 lbs) so he needs around 240-270 calories per day. The LC wet food (~6%) that I have is 85g and 64 calories per pouch. So I feed Shen 4-5 pouches per day.
When I started giving only wet food, I would give one entire pouch each at AMPS and PMPS and distribute the remaining 2 pouches across 3-4 snacks in each cycle, 1-2 tsps each per snack.
After having to increase the frequency of snacks to nearly 5-6 per cycle, I have started feeding Shen nearly the same amount at AMPS, PMPS and the rest of his snacks. Maybe he gets a smidge more at AMPS/PMPS. But since the onset starts at around +2 for him, feeding him after +1 seems to help more, than stuffing him up at shot times.

I will admit feeding every hour for 5-6 hours is crazy but I’m kind of used to it and I’ve tried to bring some flexibility into it now.

First 2-3 weeks of insulin - reds and pinks and mistakes: I started feeding Shen less than I used to pre-insulin under the very wrong assumption that less food meant less glucose production and subsequently less blood glucose. This would have set the stage for DKA given how high his BG was then.
I thankfully course-corrected under the guidance of FDMB and moved on to feeding at shot times, +3, +5 and any time Shen asked for food by himself (which was rare in the first 3 - 3.5 weeks. I had to go behind him to finish his meals). So 2 main meals at shot time and 2-3 snacks in both AM and PM cycles.
This was the period when I was still feeding Shen his obesity dry food and was transitioning him to wet food. I must have completely stopped feeding dry food a week into glargine and started following TR another week later.
Lantus worked really well for Shen and I’m both grateful and aware that we had to go through reds and pinks for a shorter spell than most kitties.

Seeing yellows and blues: Once Shen broke through the reds and pinks and started dropping to yellows and blues, I had to increase the frequency of his snacks to add a couple more in each cycle. I usually relied on his BGs to get a sense of when to feed a snack. I was more comfortable with holding off snacks in yellows.

When I first started getting more blues (even yellows for that matter) I was very nervous and would have this urge to keep testing often since I didn’t know till when or how much more he would continue dropping.. But given how expensive the testing strips are, I didn’t want to overdo it. Over time I decided that if I was worried about lower BGs, I’d give a small snack instead of testing every hour. I do a test every hour if I get BGs below 50.

Seeing greens: Once he hit the greens, I had to start feeding snacks almost hourly till +6 in every cycle. I think this is called feeding the curve and it helps with keeping kitties to stay flat instead of diving in the absence of sufficient glucose for the insulin to work on while it is working at its peak efficiency (onset to nadir) - this is my understanding so far.

I think helping a kitty to stay flat ( not in the higher ranges but the lower, normal ones) is also good in the sense that it can help avoid bounces due to steep or sudden drops in BGs, which can also happen if one isn’t feeding their kitty during certain key points of the cycle. For some kitties, even feeding hourly might not prevent steep drops, so one might need to experiment with mixing in MC or HC with the LC snacks during certain parts of the cycle.

Managing BGs below 50: The first time I got a BG below 50, I rushed to get honey. I rubbed a bit on Shen’s gums, then fed him about 3-4 tsps of his usual LC food, topped with some HC creamy treat. He barfed all of it out :blackeye:
I repeated the process with a little less of his LC food and then checked his BG after 20-30 minutes. If his BG was still under 60, I would repeat the process (minus the honey, unless the BG was still under 50) till his BG rose to a number I was comfortable with (70+ ish). I don’t know if it’s because Shen has become used to small snacks now but he throws up if he gets a bigger meal now. He used to scarf and barf a lot pre-diabetes but hasn’t done so in quite a while since becoming diabetic.

Feeding after nadir or +6: I tried to restrict his snacks to +6 since feeding after nadir seems to reduce the duration of the insulin and feeding post +10 might temporarily elevate the preshot BG. Sometimes Shen's BG had dropped lower even at +7/+8 so I couldn't tell when his nadir even was.
But Shen usually starts begging for food around +9/+10 so I decided to feed him the last snack of the cycle at around +7.5/+8, so he has a smaller wait till shot-time.
Recently, I’ve been trying (a bit unsuccessfully) to feed him a snack at +8/+9 to sort of kick back the pancreas in action with some food and lower his BG a tiny bit more.

I think the general guidance is to feed your cat as much as he/she wants unless they have weight/GI/other issues. You’ll have to observe Jessi’s BG during various times in both cycles to see when the insulin starts working (onset), when it peaks (nadir) and when it drops (duration) and also if the BG dips in the later half of the cycle at times (lantus double dip - which could explain why the PMPS BG at times may be lower than BGs recorded earlier, say between nadir and +10 when you’d normally expect the BG to start rising again).

All of this is also a lot of trial and error since ECID and different % of carbs affect different kitties differently. It does take a couple of weeks of experimental feeding to figure out how not to over/under feed and also when to feed :)
 
question about feeding, ok, I have asked this question before, so if you have answered it already, I apologize.

I've been told not to feed after nadir, but this is super hard for me to do especially when Jessi gets really hungry, which is usually in the afternoon several hours after her last meal and anywhere from +6 to +8. I understand the reasoning of not feeding but it's hard for her. She is also underweight and has all kinds of digestive issues. We have been doing frequent small meals throughout the day for many years. She is used to eating every 3-4 hours except for when I am asleep, when she could go 5 at the most in recent years, without having major stomach upset. I understand that as they get regulated they can eat less and this is a good thing. I also see that in some ways her digestive issues are better and she doesn't need as much food. I can hold off until the ps meal if it's important, but I know it stresses her to wait more than 3 or 4 hours to eat.

What are the down sides of feeding after nadir?

How do you calculate the nadir when the low point is way before +6?

Can I give her at least a half meal before her next PS meal which is in about 4 hours?

When you feed past nadir, it can cause the BG to rise sooner than you want it to (we want lower numbers for as long as possible), or if you feed after+10, it can influence the next pre-shot.

Some cats are very carb sensitive, so depending on what the patterns show you, you may want to only give LC or No carb (like freeze dried snacks) after nadir.

As far as the diving, it should level out once Jessie is on insulin for awhile.

If you look at Sly's SS, you'll see he liked cliff diving when we started getting good dose action. Now he glides down pretty steadily instead of dropping fast.

All cats are different. My last diabetic cat had no number movement until +4, so I have had to learn to feed Sly's curve correctly without giving more food than he's allowed in a day ( he is chubby).

Very nice cycle for Jessie, though. You're doing great!!
 
We’re coming up on shot time and BGs are very low for preshot.

I’ve worked hard to get us back to an earlier schedule, I wouldn’t want to have to stall because PMPS is too low.

Suggestions?
 
Don't stall. Feed and shoot. When is the shot due and what's the latest BG reading?

You're making me tremble. :nailbiting:

Latest BG is 196 after I gave her a few little treats because she was ravenous. Before it was 184. Shot would have been in about 45 minutes if I was continuing to make the schedule earlier by 15 minute increments. If not it would be in an hour.

I really don't want her to go below 70
 
Ok, I'm nervous, but I will go ahead and shoot on schedule. She already ate a half a meal. I will wait to give her the other half later, right?

Hah! All that satisfied, relieved feeing I had earlier vanished when I realized PS was going to be much lower. :nailbiting:

I thought if preshot was low it often meant that the following numbers would be even lower that the previous.

If they bounce, can I get some more sleep? LOL!:p trying to laugh off my tension here....
 
Yes feed her some at +1 and +2


If her +2 is higher, she is bouncing and you could get a night off :)

Done! and away we go! weeeeee

where is the rollercoaster emoji? :D

It's pretty selfish of me to hope for a bounce so I can sleep, don't you think? And that was exactly what I noticed while we were on .5u with no sensor. It was so nice to just be ignorant and complacent for a few days, even though I was pretty sure her numbers were high and I could see she didn't feel well. So, ok, it wasn't actually so nice, but I was at least able to put a wee bit more attention on a few things that needed doing. I can't say I got a lot more sleep, but a little more, yes.

Sleeeeep

I wonder if I will ever get enough of that again....

Don't mind me, nerves and sleep deprivation are making me loopy.
 
Numbers are going down at +2

Oh boy, this is going to be a long night.

Will someone be there to walk me through it again, I hope?

Just fed her a quarter can. She definitely wants more. Waiting to feed more. Maybe I can keep her in the hundreds this time.

@tiffmaxee
@Wendy&Neko
 
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I think (in the absence of guidance in time) you could give Bhooma’s advice from the AM cycle a re-read since it looks like you might have a similar PM cycle.

Feed a tsp of Jessi’s usual LC food every hour and keep checking every 30 mins (or every 60 mins if BG is in blues and you’re comfortable letting it dip a little more). It’s good that she’s hungry so you won’t have to worry about her rejecting food if her BG needs to be boosted up later.
It looks like Jessi didn’t bounce but on the flip-side your poor nerves :blackeye:

BTW I’d read somewhere that tags don’t work if you add them as an edit to a post.

Re-tagging for you just in case :)
@tiffmaxee @Wendy&Neko
 
Hi Stefania, I see the +1 on your SS but not the +2. Can you please update?

Done, we're at 141 now

it's not as dramatic as earlier today, which is nice.

Unfortunately, the sensor which was put on really badly by a vet who forgot to tell me she had almost no experience doing that, is already starting to come off, actually, it was never fully on, so I can't know for how much longer it will be giving me reads.

I am having to push it back inside to get reads and since Jessi is scratching the bandage around her neck a lot, it will be amazing if it lasts until Monday. Hopefully it will make it long enough for me to get another put on right.

For right now, it's giving me what I need.
 
I think (in the absence of guidance in time) you could give Bhooma’s advice from the AM cycle a re-read since it looks like you might have a similar PM cycle.

Feed a tsp of Jessi’s usual LC food every hour and keep checking every 30 mins (or every 60 mins if BG is in blues and you’re comfortable letting it dip a little more). It’s good that she’s hungry so you won’t have to worry about her rejecting food if her BG needs to be boosted up later.
It looks like Jessi didn’t bounce but on the flip-side your poor nerves :blackeye:

BTW I’d read somewhere that tags don’t work if you add them as an edit to a post.

Re-tagging for you just in case :)
@tiffmaxee @Wendy&Neko
ok, I'll keep that in mind about the tags, thanks!

yeah, it doesn't look like a bounce to me either, but I'm not experienced enough to say for sure.
 
+ 3.5 111

this is getting pretty low now. I just fed her some more LC but I'm getting the feeling it may not cut it. I have to keep her above 70.

wow she is really doing some surfing today! Not sure I can handle greens at this time of night on so little sleep to begin with...

Question: doesn't feeding a larger amount put more glucose into the bloodstream at once, and isn't that good when numbers are going down too fast and we want to slow them down?
 
+ 3.5 111

this is getting pretty low now. I just fed her some more LC but I'm getting the feeling it may not cut it. I have to keep her above 70.

wow she is really doing some surfing today! Not sure I can handle greens at this time of night on so little sleep to begin with...

Question: doesn't feeding a larger amount put more glucose into the bloodstream at once, and isn't that good when numbers are going down too fast and we want to slow them down?
Kitty on a mission.
More food is just more calories. Do you have food which has a higher carb %.
 
Question: doesn't feeding a larger amount put more glucose into the bloodstream at once, and isn't that good when numbers are going down too fast and we want to slow them down?


We feed our diabetic kitties LC wet food which contains fewer carbohydrates (as a % of total cals), which are the primary macronutrient responsible for raising BG levels. When we/cats consume carbs, they are broken down into glucose (sugar) during digestion. This glucose is then absorbed into the bloodstream, leading to an increase in BG levels.

If you consume a large amount of LC food, the total amount of carbs entering your system will be relatively small. So the rise in BG levels will also be limited. LC foods typically have a minimal impact on BG compared to MC/HC foods.

In contrast, HC foods contain a larger amount of carbs. When you consume a small amount of HC food, it can provide a more significant rise in BG levels because there is a greater amount of glucose entering the bloodstream.

When countering the nadir of long-acting insulin, a small amount of MC/HC food is recommended because it can provide a more immediate and noticeable increase in BG levels to prevent or correct hypoglycemia. LC foods may not provide a sufficient amount of glucose to raise BG levels effectively in such situations.

TLDR: more LC food does not equal more glucose in the blood (at least when compared to MC/HC). That must also be why feeding bigger meals at shot times is not of much use with glargine, I guess.

You could try mixing some MC into the LC food. Some people also have different %s of LC (2%, 6% etc) and try giving the higher % LC food to bump up the BG.
 
Kitty on a mission.
More food is just more calories. Do you have food which has a higher carb %.

yup, I have MC and HC and Extra HC, Fancy Feast, but I try to avoid them because her gut is sensitive and the times I used these she got some vomiting or diarrhea or both. One of the MCs I have is one she used to eat in the past so I could try that first if I had to.

Right now she just bumped up a little to 133 @ +4 so maybe I won't need to resort to higher carb foods...what do you think?
 
yup, I have MC and HC and Extra HC, Fancy Feast, but I try to avoid them because her gut is sensitive and the times I used these she got some vomiting or diarrhea or both. One of the MCs I have is one she used to eat in the past so I could try that first if I had to.

Right now she just bumped up a little to 133 @ +4 so maybe I won't need to resort to higher carb foods...what do you think?
She looks perfect! Keep with LC unless the numbers say otherwise. Great job :bighug:
 
We hit 180 and the Libre indicates fast upward movement. I gave her a half can and put another half out for her to munch on as she chooses. Is it pretty safe to go to sleep and wake up until AMPS? I desperately need to do that but only if at least one senior member says it's safe. I'm falling asleep as I'm writing this. Can't keep my eyes open
 
More replies on today but you can wait to read them until tomorrow.
I think the general guidance is to feed your cat as much as he/she wants unless they have weight/GI/other issues.
This is one of those unfortunate myths that just won't go away. Feed Kitty As Much As They Want?

One of the hardest things to get used to is shooting lower numbers, especially if you have history with an in and out insulin like Caninsulin. Lantus (and Levemir) tend to give much flatter cycles when you shoot lower. They are more predictable cycles. With a high preshot, you don't know if they are going to dive or stay high. We call shooting low a gift. But I will admit the first few times were very nerve wracking.
 
Actually numbers are fluctuating +6 122 but then 160 a little later...

I literally can't stay awake so thank you for the permission slips to sleep! I will read the linked post tomorrow thanks @Wendy&Neko

Jessi did so well today, didn't she? :cat::)

goodnight
 
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