6/24 - Olivia - (AMPS 141)

mosi_yazhi

mosi_yazhi

Member Since 2021
Previously

Sometimes her numbers go down to the 60s/50s, and other times it seems like she barely dips before coming back up?

Last night was weird - thought I furshot'd her because +2 was higher than PMPS, but then it took hold at +4.

Also: for those of you with CKD kitties - the vet prescribed 150ml of subq once a week. I usually give it mid-cycle, and persuade her to sit still with food. She's been taking it like a champ so far. This last time I remembered to warm the bag, and she didnt seem to notice/was a lot peppier afterwards (compared to the first time when I gave it to her 'cold', and she was miserable about it, oops :oops::banghead:)

If its mid-week, I'll peek into her mouth while she's yawning, and more often than not, she seems to have saliva to spare, so I think she's hydrated? I water down her food nearly to a 1:1 ratio and she happily eats it. She'll still lap up water at the bowl, too. (I recently got her a fountain, and she's not a fan so far haha)

It's just the day after subqs, shes super energetic and bouncy, and it just makes me wonder if shes adequately hydrated the rest of the time.

I dunno - just wondering if I should be giving more subqs, but I also heard it can hurt them if you over do it... I had asked the vet techs when they were first showing me how to juice her up, and they just said 'oh, yeah, if her gums are tacky and you pull on her skin and it doesnt immediately bounce back, you can totally give her more!' but they didnt specify how much more, and how often is too often.
 
mosi_yazhi said:
thought I furshot'd her because +2 was higher than PMPS, but then it took hold at +4.
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Remember that the depot is still there for 4-6 cycles even if you furshot, so that might have been why Olivia dropped lower despite the possibility of not getting insulin. I found that when Ruby's pancreas started working and she was getting low doses, furshots/skipped shots never seemed to affect her numbers very much. You might also be seeing the nadir moving later as it should with Levemir.

mosi_yazhi said:
just wondering if I should be giving more subqs, but I also heard it can hurt them if you over do it
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I would follow your vet's guidance on this, depending on how high her kidney values are. Ruby's primary vet suggested doing subQs once a week, but I got some advice here and on the CKD forum that it's really not enough to help the kidneys flush out toxins--it's like drinking a gallon of water once a week and the rest of the week you're thirsty. In the end I stopped it because Ruby's CKD isn't that far advanced and her IM said it wasn't necessary. Breaking it into smaller amounts and giving it more often, like 2-3 times a week, would be more helpful.
 
PerfumedCatMom said:
Remember that the depot is still there for 4-6 cycles even if you furshot, so that might have been why Olivia dropped lower despite the possibility of not getting insulin. I found that when Ruby's pancreas started working and she was getting low doses, furshots/skipped shots never seemed to affect her numbers very much. You might also be seeing the nadir moving later as it should with Levemir.


I would follow your vet's guidance on this, depending on how high her kidney values are. Ruby's primary vet suggested doing subQs once a week, but I got some advice here and on the CKD forum that it's really not enough to help the kidneys flush out toxins--it's like drinking a gallon of water once a week and the rest of the week you're thirsty. In the end I stopped it because Ruby's CKD isn't that far advanced and her IM said it wasn't necessary. Breaking it into smaller amounts and giving it more often, like 2-3 times a week, would be more helpful.
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I like, felt the needle scrape/snag the 'edge' of her skin as I was removing it (ouch!) so im not sure exactly what to think, if she got the full dose or not yesterday. And I didnt smell any insulin in her fur immediately after the shot... After I took the +2, I rubbed the scruff of her neck to, idk, disperse what might be there, thinking it might have gotten 'caught' somewhere :confused:

She seems to be on schedule with her usual trends today, though. I wish her nadir would just make up its mind where it wants to be.

But, see, that's what I thought at first with the 'drinking a gallon one day a week' analogy- I'd rather she be consistently hydrated. Should I maybe break the 150ml up into 75ml or even 100ml twice a week? Or the 150ml as planned, and a 50ml later on in the week just to give her a little boost? :confused: But idk if that amount if liquid would be enough to flush her kidneys out of toxins. Anyone you can tag that might have an idea?

We live in AZ add to which, and while we usually have the AC on, I still worry it might not be enough considering the heat. It's been about 99-102 the past week.
 
Bandit's Mom said:
How does 2 drops compare to 0.1U or 0.25U? Her nadirs are still overall on the higher side.
I think she's ready for more insulin.

@tiffmaxee
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I'm just guestimating that it's two drops, tbh, because unremovable bubbles (I've tried) and inconsistent markers on the syringes. I'm trying to be as consistent as possible, but I'm not 100% - for all I know, I could already be giving .1u I suppose.
 
mosi_yazhi said:
I'm just guestimating that it's two drops, tbh, because unremovable bubbles (I've tried) and inconsistent markers on the syringes. I'm trying to be as consistent as possible, but I'm not 100% - for all I know, I could already be giving .1u I suppose.
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Time to get callipers and go up to 0.25U? Let's see what @tiffmaxee says on dosing.
 
Once you get calipers you will wonder how you ever dosed without them. I started early as Max responded to tiny increases and decreases. I once opened two boxes of the discontinued best syringes and had a box full of inconsistent syringes! Olivia is doing so well and this just might get her into remission. Fingers and paws crossed and a big anti jinx.
 
tiffmaxee said:
Once you get calipers you will wonder how you ever dosed without them. I started early as Max responded to tiny increases and decreases. I once opened two boxes of the discontinued best syringes and had a box full of inconsistent syringes! Olivia is doing so well and this just might get her into remission. Fingers and paws crossed and a big anti jinx.
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Elise, can Wendy take Olivia up to 0.25U? Current dose is close to 0.10U.
 
Wendy, @Suzanne & Darcy might be able to advise you on the sub-q's. She had a warning a while back but I think it was more about giving too much at one time than giving it a few times a week. When I had my Simon, and he had Stage 4 CKD, the only thing that helped him feel better was the sub-q's. I think I was doing it three times a week but I don't remember how much. Suzanne has been pretty occupied lately but if she sees this I'm sure she would be happy to tell you about her experiences with the fluids.
 
mosi_yazhi said:
But, see, that's what I thought at first with the 'drinking a gallon one day a week' analogy- I'd rather she be consistently hydrated. Should I maybe break the 150ml up into 75ml or even 100ml twice a week? Or the 150ml as planned, and a 50ml later on in the week just to give her a little boost? :confused: But idk if that amount if liquid would be enough to flush her kidneys out of toxins. Anyone you can tag that might have an idea?
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The suggestion to break up the fluids into smaller and more frequent subQ sessions was given to me by the Tanya's CKD forum. I know, another group :rolleyes:, but the people are nice and if you upload your labs they will look at them and give you a better assessment of what needs to be done if you're on the fence about what to do.
 
Summer and Susie said:
Wendy, @Suzanne & Darcy might be able to advise you on the sub-q's. She had a warning a while back but I think it was more about giving too much at one time than giving it a few times a week. When I had my Simon, and he had Stage 4 CKD, the only thing that helped him feel better was the sub-q's. I think I was doing it three times a week but I don't remember how much. Suzanne has been pretty occupied lately but if she sees this I'm sure she would be happy to tell you about her experiences with the fluids.
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It makes no sense to give sub-a fluids once a week. They want the cat hydrated once a week? Far better to give a smaller amount daily and also add water to her food as that counts and far better as you aren’t adding extra salt if you use plain water in the food. You can read about fluids on tanyascrf.org without having to join another group.

https://www.felinecrf.org/subcutaneous_fluids.htm
 
Summer and Susie said:
Wendy, @Suzanne & Darcy might be able to advise you on the sub-q's. She had a warning a while back but I think it was more about giving too much at one time than giving it a few times a week. When I had my Simon, and he had Stage 4 CKD, the only thing that helped him feel better was the sub-q's. I think I was doing it three times a week but I don't remember how much. Suzanne has been pretty occupied lately but if she sees this I'm sure she would be happy to tell you about her experiences with the fluids.
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Oooh - I've been loosely following the saga of Mr. Darcy, yes. Suzanne, if you're able too, I would appreciate it, but I understand if not!

PerfumedCatMom said:
The suggestion to break up the fluids into smaller and more frequent subQ sessions was given to me by the Tanya's CKD forum. I know, another group :rolleyes:, but the people are nice and if you upload your labs they will look at them and give you a better assessment of what needs to be done if you're on the fence about what to do.
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Ok, just requested a membership or whatever it is. Is there like a password or a secret handshake I need to know? ;) Same username, if you care to find us and stalk us there.

tiffmaxee said:
It makes no sense to give sub-a fluids once a week. They want the cat hydrated once a week? Far better to give a smaller amount daily and also add water to her food as that counts and far better as you aren’t adding extra salt if you use plain water in the food. You can read about fluids on tanyascrf.org without having to join another group.

https://www.felinecrf.org/subcutaneous_fluids.htm
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I suspect they didnt want to make it too fussy for me, by requesting that I do it multiple times a week. I live SUPER rurally, and I imagine the bulk of the animals that they treat are sheep dogs and barn cats. Little do they know the level of crazy cat mom they're dealing with lmao.
 
tiffmaxee said:
You never know. Every cat is different and when you think you know what to expect they surprise you. :banghead:
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None of the local hardware stores knew what I was even talking about, and I wasnt able to make it into town for the calipers, so it will have to wait until tomorrow (I dont think I can run in and make it back before shot time tonight)

Should I... just give her the 2 drops tomorrow so I know she's relatively safe while I'm gone half the day, or just eyeball the .25u as planned and see what she does for the first few hours?

Her nadir isnt really consistent, which makes her a bit of a wild card to shoot.
 
mosi_yazhi said:
None of the local hardware stores knew what I was even talking about, and I wasnt able to make it into town for the calipers, so it will have to wait until tomorrow (I dont think I can run in and make it back before shot time tonight)

Should I... just give her the 2 drops tomorrow so I know she's relatively safe while I'm gone half the day, or just eyeball the .25u as planned and see what she does for the first few hours?

Her nadir isnt really consistent, which makes her a bit of a wild card to shoot.
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If it were me I would wait to increase til I knew I'd be home, but I'm paranoid about leaving the house with a cat heading towards green.
 
mosi_yazhi said:
None of the local hardware stores knew what I was even talking about, and I wasnt able to make it into town for the calipers, so it will have to wait until tomorrow (I dont think I can run in and make it back before shot time tonight)

Should I... just give her the 2 drops tomorrow so I know she's relatively safe while I'm gone half the day, or just eyeball the .25u as planned and see what she does for the first few hours?

Her nadir isnt really consistent, which makes her a bit of a wild card to shoot.
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Check Amazon for calipers. I’d wait to increase until you are home. They have the ones in the video. Don’t you have a Harbor Freight near you?
 
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tiffmaxee said:
Check Amazon for calipers. I’d wait to increase until you are home. They have the ones in the video. Don’t you have a Harbor Freight near you?
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Amazon would prob take too long (usually over a week to get packages) and I dont like buying from there unless strictly necessary anyway.

Alas, no Harbor Freight, but a Home Depot should have them, right?
 
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