7/13 Harley AMPS 346, PMPS 352

Good Morning, er Afternoon,

Thanks for the info. So, I've gathered that there is some bouncing around when beginning Prozinc, does anybody know why and how long does it last? Does it happen with every dose change?

Except for curve day Harley has been in the 300's for awhile now and I was wondering if it is time to increase the dose, but that worries me too because every once in a while he gives me those nice blues most of the day. If it is time to increase, than by how much and how long do you hold that dose.

Liver training, that's new to me too but makes sense.

I'll be studying others ss to learn as much as I can. Let me know if there are some really interesting ones to look at.

I will be updating my signature and profile too (any help with that will be great too).

Peace,
Robin

Harley's Intro.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=19630

 

Re: 7/13 Harley AMPS 346

There is some bouncing around while the cat adjusts to the insulin, it usually lasts around 45 days before things settle down. No one is really sure why, but I think there is an adjustment period with ANY insulin. I have nothing to compare it to, since ProZinc is the only insulin we have used. There are links at the top of the PZI forum with info, the ProZinc website is one of the links. There is a lot of info on that website, including studies that have been done. It's worth reading if you don't mind spending some time.

You could increase now if you want to, you have held that dose for long enough to see it's pretty good, but not perfect. I would strongly recommend increasing by no more than 0.2u (since you are using u100 syringes) and holding it for five days UNLESS you see a low nadir (<50), that means you need to decrease on the next dose. If you see an unshootable ps#, that is another indication that the dose may be too high. Go slow, it will help you avoid overshooting the right dose. You may or may not see a lot of bouncing around every time you change doses. That's the frustrating part, it is unpredictable. Patience is important. Don't be alarmed if his ps#s jump up after the increase, that is common. You may see a few cycles of high, shallow curves, that is common also. But ECID, Harley's response seems pretty stable to me so far. Tinkles did a lot of bouncing, very extreme swings.

Feel free to check out Tinkles' SS, we have used ProZinc from the beginning. We did a lot of experimenting, including a brief attempt at tight regulation. I have a lot of data because I'm a testing fanatic. ;-)

 

Re: 7/13 Harley AMPS 346

That string of blues was nice! The lowest value there was in the 120's so you have some room to safely go lower if you up the dose slightly. 0.2u increments is what I usually recommend to others unless you are dealing with ketones.

 

Re: 7/13 Harley AMPS 346

Thanks, there's no ketones.

What is the average no shoot number. I've seen anywhere from 140 to 200 but I'm guessing that is determined by the individual cat and his data. So what would be a good no shoot number for Harley?

Robin

 

Re: 7/13 Harley AMPS 346

For newbies, no shoot is usually 200. Most people will shoot a reduced dose between 150 and 200 until they get some data about how that worked. If the numbers stay high on the reduced dose, you can move your no shoot down, say to 180....meaning you would shoot a full dose on anything over 180, reduced dose between 150-180, no shot below 150. You can keep working your way down that way. I did it a little differently, I shot the full dose on a 180, saw that it was ok to do, then worked my way down that way. I don't recommend doing it my way, but it worked for me. I think most people who use PZI use 150 as the lowest no shoot, until you are shooting very small doses.

It looked like you could have shot a full dose on the 168, but it's hard to know for sure. That's why I don't like variable dosing with ProZinc in the adjustment period...when you change the dose, the numbers are unpredictable for a few cycles so how do you know if it was ok or not? That's why I would try to wait and get a shootable number if you can, consistent dosing will make it less frustrating. What you use for a no shoot is really up to you and your comfort level. If you are going to be out and not able to test, I would go with whatever makes you not worry all day!

 

Re: 7/13 Harley AMPS 346

Ok, thanks.

Next question, If I increase his dose to 1.2 should I wait until the weekend so I can be home to test or just go for it since he's high most of the time and only gives me blues about every two weeks.

 

Re: 7/13 Harley AMPS 346

I don't think you need to wait for the weekend. Remember that you really don't need to be concerned about hypo until he gets down below 50. He only got down to around 120 from a ps# of 222, and that leaves you a 70 point cushion. If you increase now, you will be able to see the effect when you do a curve this weekend. Unless he throws you a low ps#, I think you have enough cushion there to not have to worry too much. Besides, those blue numbers, and the green ones too, are what you want!

Do you leave food out for him when you are gone? That helps too, if he starts to go too low, he will eat and cushion his drop.

 

I went for it and shot a 1.2. I want him out of the 300's.

He is free fed, he never eats alot at one time. He eats a little now, and a little more later, all day long and when I get home from work the bowls are usually empty.

I know I'm hoping for the blues and greens but I'm just not seeing a reason why he's high high high then lower one day and back to high high high. I keep looking at other ss and don't really see any patterns there either.

I've read the stickies and poked around on the Prozinc website. Maybe it's just not sticking in my brain right now so I really do appreciate the help.

 

It's a mystery to me too, but it seems fairly common. One factor is that if they see good #s they aren't used to, their body protests and sends them higher. Bix sometimes (and this is a typical PZI pattern from what I've been told) would get a good response on the 1st cycle of a new dose, but then no more good stuff after that. Someone explained it to me more or less as his body goes "wow, hey this insulin is cool!" and gets good #s, then it thinks about it for a bit, and then it concludes "nah, not really all that exciting". And then you know you need more insulin. (I'm sure that's the scientific explanation for it all! :lol: ).

Other factors could be things like different eating patterns, which can give you different results in the #s. Some people are careful about feeding at specific times to balance the insulin and have some tangible sense of how the food affects the #s. I always freefeed, so am somewhat clueless on that front.

One of the hardest things for me with PZI was to learn to ignore the random good days that turned out not to have any consistency. I was always worried that somehow those good #s would come back, and so a dose increase was a bad idea b/c then he might hypo. But it never worked that way. The good days that came & went tended not to come back, in fact w/o dose increases he tended to go & stay in higher #s. Once we got to consistent good #s he went on a path of really quick dose reductions, so I presume with him much of it was liver training. I can't say for sure what's going on with Harley, but I wouldn't spend too much energy trying to figure out too much of a pattern or trying to understand every single #.

In general, if the PSs are mostly high and the nadirs aren't consistently in high DDs, and you aren't seeing anything wacky like inverse curves, then more likely than not, the dose is too low. I know I overcomplicated & overthought everything with Bix, trying to figure out what was going on with each # and micro-managing it (yikes, I still do this, now that I think of it! ). Well, anyhow....

 

Good points, Joanna. I'm still learning too, and I tend to be conservative with the advice I give because I don't want to see someone else have a hypo because of my advice. But I agree with the good numbers not sticking around when you are in the early stages, and needing to increase to get them to come back....you say it much more clearly than I do!

The lack of a clear pattern is the frustrating part of ProZinc, in the adjustment phase, the numbers can bounce around like that. What I did was try to ignore the cycles that didn't fit the rest of the pattern.

I'm glad that you are free feeding, that should help Harley avoid getting too low. I wish I could do that, it's just not possible in my house. Hopefully Harley will start getting some better ps#s with the increase!

 

I wish I knew how to work the quote button.

"Joanna & Bix wrote:
One of the hardest things for me with PZI was to learn to ignore the random good days that turned out not to have any consistency. I was always worried that somehow those good #s would come back, and so a dose increase was a bad idea b/c then he might hypo. But it never worked that way."

That is exactly how I feel! You explained it very well.

It looks like he did like the increase last night with a AMPS today of 297. I hope he doesn't do this. "Joanna & Bix said:
Someone explained it to me more or less as his body goes "wow, hey this insulin is cool!" and gets good #s, then it thinks about it for a bit, and then it concludes "nah, not really all that exciting". And then you know you need more insulin. (I'm sure that's the scientific explanation for it all!)." Yikes!!

Yes, free feeding makes life a little easier for Harley but feeding times in general started getting a little complicated with civies and a drooler. The kitty crack addicts are fed in the spare room with the door closed to keep Harley out. Harley is fed in the hallway outside the spare room which has a baby gate with a kitty door in it to keep the drooler out. The drooler is fed in the kitchen with a baby gate at each end to keep the kitties out. Whew!

 

Oh, so you are policing your animals too, huh? :lol: I have a similar situation, I have the bowl of dry food up on top of the entertainment center, so the civvies can free feed (I have one that will NOT give up dry food) without Tinkles getting into it. When I feed the cats in the kitchen, I have to put one of the droolers outside because she will sneak in and eat the wet food, and I have to watch Tinkles like a hawk when I feed the droolers so he doesn't eat their food! ohmygod_smile I feel like I live in a three ring circus some days!

Nice AMPS, that's a good sign. It isn't low enough to worry about with a small increase. :smile:

 

Three ring circus describes it very well.

Before baby gates with kitty doors I felt like a bouncer at an exclusive nightclub. "Yes kitty, you may enter (open gate), no drooler you may not enter (close gate)." :lol:

Luckily drooler Lucy eats every crumb of food she gets so there is never anything left out for Harley to get into.