Better numbers at lower doses

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by JanetNJ, Oct 1, 2018.

  1. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Im up to 8.25. Seems CC had better numbers at 7.5 and 7.75. Or maybe her insulin resistance is worse?

    Nothing I try seems to help.
     
  2. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what's going on Janet. Just kind of running my eyes over the numbers and seeing colors rather than numbers, it all looks about the same to me. Yeah, you got some crazy lime greens a few times on lower doses, but I really think you're still dealing with insulin resistance. To me, it looks like things aren't changing much.
     
  3. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Very true. She had more energy before hitting 8 units though. She's been just laying around this week. I am thinking this is just her new normal now. She's getting old I guess. Although I was happy to find her in her cat tree this morning. She hadn't gone up there all week.
     
  4. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I'm so sorry CC's having a hard time. If you're going to back up and lower the dose, make sure to test for ketones daily. With the inflammation she has, those are always a concern. She's been in these numbers for awhile now, so her lack of energy concerns me a little, although if I'm remembering correctly, it hasn't been long since her last vet visit. Is she on B12? I've read that can help with energy.
     
  5. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry C.C. is having a hard time. :(
     
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  6. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Yes she takes b 12. I give a zobaline everyday... Half in the morning half in the evening. I checked ketones a week ago with a blood meter and it didn't detect any at all. Thankfully. She's sweet and purrs often and happily joins us on the bed at night (with some help from pet steps). So she still enjoying life which is of course my main test of how she's doing.

    Her one elbow bows out when she walks poor thing... And she's stiff but usually doesn't limp since starting Gabapentin. The gabapintin may be adding to the lethargy too I suppose. I miss seeing her play.

    Her last vet visit was mid August.
     
  7. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I want to say something about bouncing but obviously you know about this Janet. For anyone else, it can be hard grasping the idea of throwing less water on a fire that's getting bigger but it can work. Read the stickie (where is it anyone?) and it should make sense. Noah's numbers used to climb and climb (Caninsulin) until I finally got up the nerve to reduce his dose. He's still unregulated but the days of 6 units are long gone.
    Best wishes for C.C., I know she's in good hands.
     
  8. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I am hoping the slightly lowered dose helps. Worth a try anyway but it’s all so disappointing. I really thought after the dental we would be under 5 units.
     
  9. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate everyone’s support.
     
  10. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    What insulin do you use?
     
  11. Noah & me (GA)

    Noah & me (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Caninsulin. My vet has never heard of Prozinc. Is Noah just too old to switch now?
     
  12. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ah ok. Yeah that's what cc was on but really I haven't seen much difference. Actually I think she was doing better on vetsulin.
     
  13. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Wow decent numbers yesterday but huge bounce up this morning! Take your springy shoes off, CC
     
  14. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    She's giving you a run for your money for sure, Janet! Maybe stash the idea of trying a depot insulin in the back of your mind for future consideration. Yes, there are stricter rules about their use but you'll figure out how you can bend them to suit CC - and you. I had to do that with my guy.
     
  15. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    Mia recommends Levemir. :D
     
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  16. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I asked about levemir and she wasn't open to it. She would try lantus if the ProZinc doesn't work. I'm not convinced to results would be much different.
     
  17. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    Why?? My vet had never even heard of it, but she was able to do some quick research while we were in her office to verify that it IS being used in cats and with success. So, she felt comfortable giving me what I had asked for.

    Maybe not, but only one way to tell. It works so differently that maybe it would surprise you.
     
  18. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Janet, just a caution that Lantus often starts to sting somewhere around 5-6 units and I was not refrigerating it because I was going through it fast enough. Stings worse cold. I switched Menace to Levemir because her shots suddenly became obviously uncomfortable for her. I too had a vet who had never heard of Levemir but she researched and gave me the green light. There is a paper HERE that might help you convince your vet to give you a script for Levemir if you choose to go that route. To me Levemir is definitely a whole different insulin to work with in that it doesn't take as long to see effects of dose changes (a bit more like ProZinc etc for example) but it also has a later onset, longer duration, and carryover than Lantus and an extremely flat curve once optimal dosing is attained.

    I'm still in catch up mode so forgive me for asking, but have you done or are you considering testing for acro and IAA?
     
  19. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    I am not planning on trying it any time soon. I have not tested her for acro or iaa. Arethose things that can develop suddenly? Because up until June she responded to insulin normally.
     
  20. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I think Doodles of Karen and Doodles, developed IAA after either being in remission or at least well regulated. IAA could develop anytime. I assume the same is possible with acro given that it's caused by a tumour which could start to grow/become active at anytime in the cat's life. Just a thought. The tests themselves are not particularly expensive...its the blood draw and sending to Michigan that costs a bit. Cost me $179.00 Cdn. all in except taxes. For me, just knowing what I was dealing with made it so much easier to cope with the frustrations of seeing no improvement no matter what I did. Interestingly, like you, in my early days with Menace, I would back up her dose thinking she'd had better numbers on less insulin only to find my theory was full of holes.
     
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  21. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Yeah didn’t really work. I am grasping at straws. I hate to talk to my vet about it though. Last time I did she wanted to micro manage the dose and cc started developing ketones.
     
  22. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Always amazes me how a vet thinks they can adequately manage a diabetic from afar but alas that's more often the case than not. While my vet was pro testing (although there was the suggestion I tested too much on occasion) and actually provided me with some basic reference material off this site, she was not familiar with the dosing methods etc. here. She also thought hi dose conditions were so rare that testing was not needed.

    So when I first started making noise about the testing, my vet decided to get some so called specialist in Texas to look at Menace's records. His big issue was her diet (she was still a kibble addict then) but she was eating EVO which was only 8% carbs. :rolleyes:He also suggested changing her over to PZI if she exceeded 8u twice daily. At that point I started considering importing insulin from the UK to get the manufactured PZI that most closely resembles cat insulin but decided to pursue high dose testing before I started jumping through hoops. This time my vet agreed to test for Acro and Cushings but still tried to dissuade me on the IAA. I told her to humour me and test IAA and Acro but declined testing for Cushings given there were no symptoms of Cushings other than the impossible to control BG. When I got the results back, I felt so vindicated and my vet was absolutely amazed but of course had no clue what the next steps should be. If not for FDMB, goodness knows Menace would probably either still be in high numbers or worse.

    Obviously Idon't know your vet but I'd certainly try to reason with her even if you have to use the "I'm pulling my hair out so humour me" card.
     
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  23. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Decent preshots tonight after that sky high one this morning! 296
     
  24. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    AAAAND Laura gave in to CC'S puppy dog eyes and sitting up begging routine and gave her chicken that had been marinated. Grrr. I am like STOP WHAT ARE YOU DOING???? LOL." But she's begging! ","I don't care! Lol" so two hours later she's at 459. Greeeeat.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
  25. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    :banghead:
     
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  26. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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  27. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Today's numbers have been so super frustrating. Praying for a better tomorrow. :blackeye::(:banghead:
     
  28. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    You sure there was no contraband today? I feel your pain. Fingers crossed for better numbers Monday.
     
  29. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Nope nothing. No ketones yesterday so that's good. And she was up in her tree purring.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
  30. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    So decided to try "starting over" from 8 down to 5. So far I've seen a decent response. She's down to 300 from a preshot of 400 at +3.5. Let's see what happens.
     
  31. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Good luck with the decrease!
     
  32. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Eh I figured it’s worth a try. If it doesn’t work out I can increase. Running higher than I wish but really no worse than she was yesterday on 8 units.
     
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  33. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Took a peek at your SS. She seems to be doing about the same on 5u as on 8. How long do you plan on staying at 5? She sure is a tough one to figure!
     
  34. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Right? It's not much different. Crazy. Not sure
     
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  35. FurBabiesMama

    FurBabiesMama Well-Known Member

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    Maybe my suggestion to start with 2u when you switched wasn't so stupid. :D :joyful:
     
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  36. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ha ha. No it wasn't. 5 isn't really getting me anywhere, but neither was 8.
     
  37. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think I read here on FDMB that anti insulin antibodies can develop at any time. I wonder if that's what's going on with CC?
     
  38. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Kris is right. IAA can develop at any time.

    I have been peeling over CC's data. I have to admit that she has me flummoxed however, I think part of that is that with insulins like Vetsulin and ProZinc, you don't worry as much about holding a dose and that, for me at least, muddies the picture. All the dose changes make it difficult to discern if there really is a pattern of doses going stale which is a hallmark of IAA. That said, there is something about CC's numbers and patterns that makes me wonder if that might be the problem.

    My suggestion would be to up CC to 5.5u (At that dose 0.5u increases are reasonable), hold for a minimum of 4 cycles, max of 6 cycles barring any pre-shots too low to shoot) and see if you see improvement day 1 or 2 and then a drop off of the insulin action back to pre increase numbers. Since you already reduced CC's insulin from 8u it may take a few increases to see if this phenomenon is occurring.

    Janet, the good news is that if it is IAA, then it will break eventually but it may take more than 8u of insulin to get to that point. My Menace was on 16u twice daily before her antibodies finally started to be beaten back. Remember a cat needs as much insulin as they need.
     
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  39. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Omg 16 units I can't imagine. Is there a test spe cifically for IAA
     
  40. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Yes there is and it's cost is super cheap. What costs is the blood draw and sending it to University of Michigan. I got both IAA and Acro testing done for $179.00 Cdn so if you want to get testing done, might be worth testing for ACRO too just to cover all bases. UMC is the only place in North America that does the IAA test to my knowledge.
     
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  41. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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  42. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ok so IAA is simply treted with increasing units.... Nothing else, correct?
     
  43. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, over time (often a year) it breaks and numbers can fall pretty fast.
     
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  44. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Janet, IAA is an auto immune disease. It causes the body to develop antibodies so the insulin cannot be utilized as it normally would/should be. Lots is not all cats have them to some degree but in some of our kitties they get totally out of control. The only treatment is to basically overwhelm the antibodies until the body can once again use the insulin it produces or we add exogenously.
     
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  45. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ty for the info.


    She is responding somewhat. I mean she’s down about 200 points since the preshots 5 hours ago right now. So it’s not like she’s not responding at all.
     
  46. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    High and flat this morning. She's not feeling well. Didn't eat much, threw up foam and had diarrhea last night and this morning. She is still drinking. I checked ketones with the blood meter and it was only 0.4, so pretty much nothing so it's not that. If she's not better by tomorrow I'll contact the vet. Could be a stomach bug, pancratitis (I hope not... She never had it before)... Maybe constipation? I know she had the squirts but my cat Zimmy used to get that when he was constipated. Maybe hairball bothering her? :(
     
  47. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Poor C.C. :( I too hope it's not pancreatitis. Diarrhea could be sign of constipation. My geriatric guy has always looks like death warmed over when he is about to produce a hairball. He'll drink copious amounts of water and projectile vomits clear fluid a few times before the hairball is expelled. Fingers crossed C.C. perks up!
     
  48. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I'm wondering if it's a hairball too. Some of the foamy puke had a little hair in it. I'll pick up pumkin later too. I thought I had some but must have used it up.
     
  49. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Hope she’s feeling better
     
  50. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    A little I think. She ate a bit tonight. Not as much as usual but at least it was something.
     
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  51. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Clearly my experiment was unsuccessful. Would you guys day it's time to ask for an IAA/ACRO test? I'm hesitant to invite the vet back into it because she will want to try micro managing the dose at lower levels for too long of a time. I just know it. :(
     
  52. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    If I were you, I'd get the testing done if for no other reason than your own sanity. It was frustrating for me as a newbie when no matter what I did, Menace's BG didn't move. I can only imagine how much more frustrating it has to be for you when you are a seasoned caregiver with a cat that has already been in remission and you just keep hitting a brick wall. It's frightening to keep increasing doses and see no results and I found just knowing what I was up against allowed me to feel much more comfortable increasing until we got to the break through dose.

    Chances are good your vet has never knowingly dealt with either condition (not all acro cats need large doses of insulin) so if you can convince her to do the testing and it confirms either or both are at play, she'll probably be totally out of her element. I wouldn't hesitate to pointedly ask about her experience with either condition to essentially back her into a corner as far as getting the testing done and dealing with it if either/both are positive. You've increased and backed up and haven't been able to find that sweet spot so I don't know that there is much she can suggest in the way of dosing that is going to differ from what you've already done.

    I know medical personnel can be difficult to deal with sometimes because they don't want to admit their own shortfalls but I also think that a well positioned/presented argument should lead to a partnership as opposed to a dictatorship. If it doesn't, then I'd be shopping for a new vet because she should have more respect for you and how you have managed C.C. up till now. :)
     
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  53. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Decent preshot this evening. She was under the bed for the last 6 hours because I had company over, so I guess not eating since about 10 am kept the number down. Haha
     
  54. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Oooh she has a good start to the day today. Was 325 at amps and 2 hours later 230. I wish I was home today! I may have been able to see a blue!
     
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  55. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I take it C.C. is feeling a little better now?! Fingers crossed that she will honour you with some blue very soon when you are home to enjoy it! :)
     
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  56. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    She is definitely feeling better today. Ty
     
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  57. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Ok, pmps is 362. At this point I consider anything under 400 to be a good number.
     
  58. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    C.C., you look lovely in pink and yellow. Such cheery colours on this fall day. Maybe tonight or tomorrow you can throw caution to the wind and give your Momma a little blue too! :D
     
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  59. Gretchen(sugarbaby)&bobbi

    Gretchen(sugarbaby)&bobbi Member

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    Same with Gretchen. I’ve had horrible meter problems which hopefully have come to an end but I’ve lowered her to 2 units and she is just so much more healthy looking and acting.
     
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  60. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    So I bit the bullet and contacted the vet. As much as I hate that she's going to try to micro manage for a while, I feel like it's the only way to get the test for IAA done. Ugh. I am already regretting it. Lol
     
  61. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Janet, you may need to learn the "nod your head in agreement" tactic and then just do your own thing. All you really need is for the testing to be done. Once that is complete, what you do at home will be up to you. If I were you, I'd get the IGF-1 done too at the same time. Acro is a lot more common than most vets realize and more common than IAA on its own. As much as you are regretting this now, if C.C. does have either condition, you will know what you are dealing with and can work with it accordingly. :bighug:
     
  62. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    dipped her toes in blue for the first time in a month!!! Of course back up to the moon this morning. Lol
     
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  63. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    :cool:
     
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  64. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Oh C.C., we're all loving that blue...how about a little more of it? :cool:
     
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  65. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Ouch on that AMPS CC! Hope this means you’re getting close to a break through, Janet and she’s just bouncing through it.
     
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  66. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    C.C. It's not Halloween yet so take that black "costume" off and get off the trampoline. We want you to wear something more cheerful PLEASE! :rolleyes:
     
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  67. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    She was high this morning but much more normal reading two hours later. Maybe she ate a bit... There was some wet food still down from the night before.... And I think it is a bit of a bounce.
     
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