BG higher now on FF pate!

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Emily C, May 10, 2020.

  1. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Can a cat’s BG readings go higher at first when they switch to FF pate?
    My sweet Ginger has been transitioning to FF pate naturals from her dry Glycobalance for the last 5 days, and yesterday her numbers were alot higher than they had been, and now this morning her am pre-shot reading was 454! She has had this high of number in the evening but never in am. And her urine was a lot less until last night as well, much more in the litter box this morning. She doesn’t seem listless or that she doesn’t feel good, she seems on alert, like she is so hungry and camps out on her little pillow in the kitchen. Help! I know I went down too fast, from 4 to 3 units, but I don’t know if that’s it or the change to FF pate. The last two days she has been getting half a can of FF and half her normal scoop of Glycobalance (which was only a 1/3 of a cup). I did go ahead and give her her am shot at 3 units.
    Also it seems like she has lost weight in the last few days too, if that’s possible.
     
  2. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I doubt its the FF. I am not able to comment on dosing advice but I think hold it for at least a few days give the new unit amount chance to work? I am in no way an expert so hold on for more replies. ;)
    jeanne
     
  3. Nan & Amber (GA)

    Nan & Amber (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Hi Emily--

    One possibility is that the switch to FF has done what is supposed to and brought her insulin needs down, you just aren't seeing it directly for two reasons:

    1) no nighttime tests means you are "blind" to whatever she's doing half of the time
    2) if she happened to go low during one of those nighttime cycles, she might be "bouncing" back up the rest of the time, when you are able to monitor.

    Bouncing is a normal phenomenon in diabetic cats-- they get used to high numbers, so once they start seeing some lower ones, the body reacts to try to get them back to where they are used to. The really annoying thing about bounces is that they usually last a lot longer than the lows that trigger them-- they can last up to three days, even!

    So, that's my initial guess: the FF is working and has brought her numbers down, you just haven't been lucky enough to catch that yet in your BG monitoring. The reason that I think this is possible and even likely is that in your other monitoring, of her external symptoms and behavior, you are definitely seeing some improvements!

    Is there any way you could get a test or two at night, maybe at +2 or +3 before you go to bed? It would help give a little glimpse of what she might be getting up to then!
     
  4. Nan & Amber (GA)

    Nan & Amber (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Oop, I just noticed that you mentioned that you are still giving some of the dry Glycobalance food. That might also be affecting the numbers and keeping them more elevated than they would be otherwise.

    But the rest of the discussion, about bouncing and the desireability of a nighttime test or two, still stands!
     
  5. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Thank you for your response - that is an interesting theory and I will definitely start to get a night time reading. However her symptoms that had improved initially have come back - increased drinking and urinating and constant hunger. As well as now she seems a little more low energy.
     
  6. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Again please hold on for more replies. Its very interesting what Ginger is going through right now.
     
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  7. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    When you say they came back, since when meaning for how long have you noticed it?

    I tend to agree with Nan. I had that experience yesterday but during the daytime, however it likely started in the overnight cycle. I began taking her pm+2 daily to see what direction it’s going down, up or stable. Anyway Minnie dropped super low yesterday in the 40’s then by pmps she was up to 278 and 295 at +2. These are very high readings for her so it was probably the beginning of a bounce and I expect to see bouncy numbers today. They tend to eat less overnight so the numbers will go lower than during daytime.
     
  8. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    I just realized this morning when I checked the litter box that she had urinated a lot overnight and her water was empty. Then this morning she had the 450s BG. I’m just worried about her. I’m afraid it’s something I’m doing that is making her feel worse again. Am I not feeding her enough of the FF? And yes I am still giving her a bit of the Glycobalance but that’s just because I thought you were supposed to gradually transition when you are switching to a different food. When I first started to introduce the FF with a small amount I noticed an improvement in her drinking and peeing right away.
     
  9. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    Yes you should transition slowly that’s right especially to avoid these drops in BG we’re talking about. Remind me, is she overweight or did she lose weight? Because I’d let her eat as much as she wants of the FF not the other one. It was explained to me a while back that diabetic cats lose calories simply by peeing because there’s sugar in their urine and that’s why Minnie was also super hungry for a while. I increased her diet to 300 calories a day then. She also had lost a ton of weight because of the diabetes and needed to gain back. Now she’s more at 250 a day and she’s the one who refused the food so I know it was okay to go down to 250
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  10. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    Here’s the other thing. I know that feeling all too well. What did I do? It’s my fault because I’m the one caring for them. I felt like that all day yesterday and I feel like that every time I test her and scratch her ear. But most likely it’s nothing you did. Diabetic cats have ups and downs even Minnie who is regulated now does too. So you have to remind yourself you’re doing the best you can for them and we can only do our best at any given time. If it makes you feel better it took me 6 months of doing everything wrong to be able to get Minnie finally regulated. And when I start to hear the voice in my head saying you’re such a bad mother, why did you listen to the vets, why didn’t you find help sooner? I have to be kind to myself because I was doing the best I could at that time. I genuinely thought the vets knew what they were doing. So, be kind to yourself. She’s lucky to have you and your unconditional love. And here’s the good news, she was diagnosed less than 3 months ago and you’re already doing all the right things. As many remind me here, feline diabetes is a marathon not a sprint. She drank more water because her numbers were higher it doesn’t mean it will continue. What you can do today is get that +2 pm reading and let’s go from there. The bounce happens when their BG goes lower than their usual low so she didn’t have to go down to 40 like Minnie. It could simply be if her low is 300 and she went 250 that could cause a bounce.
    Does she typically eat overnight?
     
  11. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    She was not overweight, and I feel like she seems lighter since we have started the FF, maybe I feed her more. So if she’s not getting enough food that could cause drops in BG, which can them cause the bounces/high BG?
     
  12. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    Yes especially as you transition to new food and especially overnight. I just asked on the other reply but does she tend to eat overnight?
     
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  13. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    thank you for your kind words :)

    Her readings in the morning were generally in the low 200s when I first started reading earlier in the week so that’s why the high 450s is so alarming! I feel like I still have so much to learn with the BG testing.
    and no she doesn’t eat overnight. She is always ravenous and eats her food so fast. We have to close off our other kitty in the bathroom so he can eat his food in peace - she’ll just push him out of the way! So even if we left food out for her it wouldn’t last overnight is what I’m trying to say :)
     
  14. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    Hey Nan, the other thing I noticed is the decrease from 4 to 3. Could it be we missed an ideal dose in between since the decrease was by a full unit?
    Let me tag @Deb & Wink here also since she’s good with prozinc
     
  15. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    We’re all learning it’s a work in progress and every single cat is different which of course makes it all even more challenging! :banghead::banghead::banghead:

    I have a similar issue with Minnie I can’t get her to eat overnight and I can’t figure out what to do I also have another cat so I’d never be able to tell who ate the food but Nan had a brilliant suggestion that may work for you. She calls it catsicles where you freeze some of their favorite food or treats and leave it out so they’ll only be able to eat once it’s naturally thawed out. Wdyt?
     
  16. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    And let’s see what Nan and Deb say because I feel the decrease by a full unit may also be an issue. We suggest only decreasing and increasing by .25 so maybe they’ll have you increase by .25 soon. Hang on!
     
  17. Nan & Amber (GA)

    Nan & Amber (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I thought about the dose change too, but I'm not really well-versed in Prozinc, so I didn't want to comment too much about that. My sense is that 3U is still a pretty high dose, and that of the two changes made, the food change was likely to be more consequential. But again, I'm not a Prozinc person so let's see what Deb has to say about this!
     
  18. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    I’m hoping you’re right. The first day that I had started Ginger on FF, she was sooo resistant to get her insulin. I had never seen her so adverse to it, like trying to bite me and constantly running away. I know I sound crazy, but in my weird head I thought it was her way of telling me the dose was too high, and so I went down to the 3 units - that was before I knew about the go slowly down advice. On the other hand she was very chill and happy to get her insulin since then. Ha!
     
  19. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't think that Emily has decreased the dose too quickly. With the food change from high carb dry to low carb wet, it's better to reduce the dose a bit more than usual during that changeover. So the cat does not have a hypoglycemic episode.

    Even the 3U right now may be too much. Ginger is bouncing right now, from low numbers that her body is not used to, like that 217 on 5/8/20 AMPS. The bounce is why her BG numbers increased during the cycle. So patience is needed here right now, to let that bounce clear before deciding on a dose change.

    Emily, please let us know when the food change is complete. Then we'll have another look at the dose.
    If Ginger drops < 90 mg/dL at any point, then the dose will need to be reduced IMMEDIATELY.

    And Emily, you really do need to get at least 1 more test in during the PM cycle. A "before bedtime" test is a good one to get. Otherwise, you are missing half your data.

    p.s. There are 2 links to the SS. Please delete the one with the really long URL, and keep the one with the shortened name, the one that says "Ginger's Spreadsheet", since there is no reason to have 2 versions of the same thing.
     
  20. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Thank you Deb - I will definitely change that! And I think that tomorrow will be Ginger last day with the Glycobalance so I will let you know. I’m worried that her BG is so high before her dinner/pm shot. 481 tonight. But I am definitely going to do another reading +2 hours after her last dose. Hopefully that will give a better picture of what’s going on. I did up her amount of FF tonight to a whole can plus the Gylobance, so hopefully she won’t be as hungry.
    How much does everyone feed their cat the canned food? 3-4 cans a day?
    Also, how do you leave out food at night? I feel like Ginger will just eat it all as soon as I put it down? And what do you do when you have more than one cat? My other fur babe is not diabetic.
     
  21. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Depends on what Ginger's ideal weight is.

    If she’s at her ideal weight, then you want to feed her to maintain that. Needs to lose weight? Feed less. Needs to gain weight? Feed more. Here is Dr. Lisa’s formula:

    Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70

    Hold Ginger in your arms, step on a human scale, note the weight. Let cat down. Note the new weight. Subtract your weight alone from your combined weight to figure out how much Ginger weighs now. Get what Ginger's ideal weight should be from your vet. Adjust food as needed, to get to the ideal weight. Weekly checks or so should be plenty. If you are like many women, you already have a human scale at home.

    Timed feeder like the Petsafe 5 or make frozen food portions, to unthaw overnight.
    Microchip timed feeder if you have more than one cat. So only the cat with the correct microchip can access that feeder.
    Isolate the one cat overnight, so only the desired cat has access to the food. (Yes, this can be tough to do.)
    Both cats can eat the same food. The wet food would be good for your non-diabetic cat too. Lower carb and more moisture is good for non-diabetic cats too. Helps the kidneys and so much more.

    More than you ever thought to ask or know about feline nutrition can be found here. https://catinfo.org/
     
  22. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Tonight’s +2 (2 hours after pm shot in f I didn’t use the right lingo) was 298. I did put it on my spreadsheet. Curious what you all think about that. Or maybe we need a few more days to see a pattern.
    I’m supposed to take Ginger in to the vet on Tuesday for another two week BG test and I’m nervous.
     
  23. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Would you be able to get one more test done in the PM cycle? Before you head off to sleep?
     
  24. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    We will have to see a few days, yes but it looks to me Nan was right and he may be dropping quite a bit overnight and going back way up judging by where he was this am
     
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  25. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    you read my mind and you always ask so nicely :bighug:
     
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  26. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    I had gone to be already - ha! But I can try to stay up later tonight to get another reading.

    But in good news, Ginger's BG am preshot reading was 225. Hopefully the more FF helped last night. And I gave her 1.5 cans this morning and she only ate a little bit of the gylcobalance I gave her (which was only about 10 morsels). So I think I'm done with the Gylocobalance!

    What are your thoughts on Dr. Elsey's dry food to feed/leave out for free feeding and giving FF at mealtimes? I know, it's hard to even break the humans of the dry food habit haha!
     
  27. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    The main issue with the dry foods of any kind, is that the moisture content is so low and cats do not have a natural thirst drive. In the wild, they would never be eating a dry food like the ones sold commercially by pet food companies.

    So the dry foods leave cats in a chronic case of very slight dehydration, in my opinion. Which is very hard on the kidneys especially.

    There are feline diabetic cat owners that swear by the Dr. Elsey's dry chicken flavor. The salmon flavor is too high in carbs.
    There are cats that do ok on the Dr. Elsey's. Other cats, once even that Dr. Elsey's dry food is removed from their diet do much better in controlling their diabetes.

    Personally, I'm not a fan of dry cat foods. I think cats are much better off with timed feeders, that dispense wet food at given times, for when you are not home or are sleeping.

    So ask yourself, why you are having such a hard time giving up the dry food for your cat? Then weigh the pros and cons. Make the choice yourself, based on the best information you can get.

    p.s. See you think you did a possible fur shot this morning, 5/11/20.
     
  28. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    I know - I guess just the ease of dry food for cat caregivers when we go out of town, which we normally do quite a bit for work, visiting family, etc. I had seen others on the FB page say they use Dr. Elsey's for free feeding so I was curious what others did/thought. That's a good thing with this quarantine is that I am home to do all this testing, normally i'd be at work. I will definitely look into the timed cat feeders!

    And yes I did give a shot this morning and posted it, maybe it didn't get saved? I correct it.
    Her am pre-shot # was 226, then she ate the 1.5 cans of FF and barely any Gylcobalance dry - so I think she is done with that. I did give her the 3 u shot, HOWEVER, she moved before I could finish pushing the plunger all the way and so I think I only gave her closer to 2.5u - eek. Then I just did her +6 reading and it was only 198!
    How should I proceed for going forward now with insulin? Should I go down to the 2.75u? Further?
     
  29. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    And THANK YOU!!!!
     
  30. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Oh - and I have to say Ginger has not been seeming like she is feeling well. She just lays down and is low energy. She will get up and get a drink or if there is any food anywhere, people or kitty, she will jump up, but other than that she seems so withdrawn. Is that the "bounces"? She did seem like she had more energy this morning after breakfast before I gave her am shot, which was closer to 2.5 than 3u since she pulled away. :(
     
  31. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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  32. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Yes I know 198 isn't really low, I just got excited after all the super high ones yesterday :)

    Thank you for the links, I think that I had read the one about Prozinc dosing but not the one about bouncing.

    And Ginger seems to be doing much better after her dinner (dry food free!), and her pm preshot reading was 245. Since I had been at 3u for a little over 3 days, and I had given her a bit less today because of the fur dose, I gave her 2.75u. So far so good - she's gotten out of the kitchen and walking around and jumping in windows :)
    I will do the pm +2, and then a pm +4 tonight to see how the numbers look.
     
  33. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good Em! For the test times tonight and the reduced dose and the dry food free. 3 big changes for Ginger, all good ones!

    (Is it Emily or is Em ok?)
     
  34. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    woohoo!!! 245 is a great PMPS number! Go Ginger! :bighug::bighug::bighug:
     
  35. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Yes! Em is definitely ok ;)
    And I know - I'm so excited, I realize there's probably ups and downs still to come but so glad to see it all starting to come together!
     
  36. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Thank you!!! :) :bighug:
     
  37. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Well the +2 was almost exactly what it was last night - 297. I'll do another one in 2 hours. But the good news is I'm getting better at getting the blood! I just wish she didn't act like it hurt her - she always flicks her ear and meows after I make the poke. All the cats in the videos I watched look comatose compared to Ginger haha!
     
  38. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

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    Minnie does exactly the same thing I know but then she’s over it the moment she gets her food. If it really hurt horribly they’d get the hell out and I also remind myself she makes a scene like I’m trying to skin her alive when I try to wipe her butt so that puts things in perspective to me lol
     
  39. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Yup - we got some drama queens!
     
  40. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Well boo ~ +4 pm shot reading is 368 :/
    Does the reading get affected if you get the blood droplet off their fur?
     
  41. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Wah wah - am preshot reading was 416 :(
    Do you think she bounced?
    I did order the timer feeder yesterday, hopefully that will help overnight.
    Gave her 2.75u
    wow this is really an emotional roller coaster, isn’t it?
     
  42. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Very much so. Even veterans go on this ride.
     
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  43. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    You know what? I don't know the answer to that question. Because I'm not sure if you mean the blood got splattered off the ear and into the fur somewhere? Did the blood in the fur have time to start clotting before you found it?

    But unless you have shaved your cat's ears, it's likely that you will always get a bit of blood mixed into the fur. So it's usually fine, if the blood has not started to clot yet. Or get mixed with dandruff in the fur or something yucky.

    Didn't seem to make any difference with my diabetic cat Wink. I did shave his long furred ears at first, to help me see the blood drop in his black ear fur. Didn't need to do that shaving of his ear hair more than once.

    His hair inside his ears was even longer, so I always pricked the outside furred side of his ear. Otherwise the blood drop would have been lost before I got the test strip to the blood drop. Black and dark eared cats have unique "challenges" when testing them.
    Absolutely. Let's see how long it takes for Ginger to clear this bounce. Look for steady yellows (200-299 mg/dL) range for a bounce clearing cycle.
     
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  44. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Ok thank you - she has been in the mid 300s all day today. I just wish there was something I could do to help her get out of the bounce, but from what I read in that sticky it seems you just have to wait and watch.
    And I’m sorry I should of clarified about the blood and fur - Ginger had a perfect blood droplet on her ear and then when I brought the meter towards her ear (which she doesn’t ever see it she just feels it) she twitched her ear back onto her head and the beautiful blood droplet was now on her neck fur. So there you go haha!
     
  45. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Ok, as long as the blood drop was still big enough, it should have been fine to use for testing.
     
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  46. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Hi all - so I have given it a few days, to see if the possible bounce would subside, however Ginger BG numbers are staying high (425 for am pre shot this morning). I tried to give her a different flavor (she had been getting only the chicken and so I gave her some of the beef with chicken one) and she threw it all up and then didn’t want to eat in the evening last night. I think she did get into her brother’s dry food a little bit, which actually she seemed more happy and not as sickly - ?
    This morning she ate fine with her regular chicken but then her number was so high, so my question is should I go back up in her dose? I am at 2.75 right now. It’s been the 3 cycles at 2.75u and she’s still high - should I go back to 3u and see if that helps?
    Sorry to tag you @Deb & Wink just worried she’s been high for a while
     
  47. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'd try back at 3U and see if it helps.
     
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  48. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Going up to 3u for the past 3 days has helped - her numbers have been great, low to mid 100s. Now I’m wondering should I start to try to go down to 2.75u or just keep it where it is? Love the idea of her going into remission
     
  49. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    She really does like the 3U dose,

    I wouldn't go down in the dose just yet. Not until she hits a BG level of 90 or lower.
    So keep the dose as it is for now.
     
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  50. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    thank you @Deb & Wink
    You are right she does seem to like that dose :)
    Oh, and an update on the food - I did order some of the Dr. Elsey just as another treat option for when I was doing BG readings. I’ll give her just a bit - like an 1/8 of a cup, at 1pm and 9pm. But I haven’t given it every day, also got some of the freeze dried chicken treats and she’s liking those. She is eating 3 cans of FF chicken pate a day. I think she will eat anything, my little feline trash compactor haha
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  51. Emily C

    Emily C Member

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    Yikes - +6 reading this afternoon was 48. She luckily was acting fine and actually now jumps up in her chair to get her BG reading (who is this kitty!?)
    I gave her 1/2 a FF pate. She ate it up and is just sitting there like normal. I’ll check her again in a little bit. I’m thinking I should go down to 2.75u now?
     
  52. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, that 48 was WAY less than the 90 reduction point.

    I see you fed Ginger some low carb food when you got that low at +6. That will help to bring the BG levels back up and keep Ginger safer. You also should have tested again after that low, to see if it was still dropping or had come back up. Don't see that test on the SS - yet.

    Notes on the SS of when you gave food, like that 1/4 can of FF at +6 are also helpful.

    Remember, the Nadir or low in the cycle might not ALWAYS be at +6 so test a little before that, a little after that, to see how Ginger is doing. Try some +5 tests.

    I think the change you did in eliminating the dry food has made a major difference. I would not be surprised if Ginger earns another dose reduction very soon.

    p.s. Please start a new thread and link this old one in at the top. For continuity and reference. We like to keep posts at 50 replies total. Makes the database behind the scenes more efficient as well as makes it easier to catch up on what is going on with shorter threads.
     
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