Blackie - Crazy Numbers Today ??

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Ele & Blackie (GA), Feb 22, 2010.

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  1. Ele & Blackie (GA)

    Ele & Blackie (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Here's a recap since last night morning:
    pmps 333 3.2u
    +7 200
    amps 200 3.0u
    +6 55 got extra food
    +7 85
    +11 486
    pmps 531 3.0u

    I was shocked when I saw the 486! I thought it must have been a mistake, but Robert said he checked it twice because he was shocked. Then the pmps 531?? WTF?? Could a rebound happen that fast? I was tempted to lower the dose, the the 531 scared me. I have never seen anything like this. I'll be doing spot checks tonight.
     
  2. Karen & Angus(GA)

    Karen & Angus(GA) Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    That looks like rebound to me.
     
  3. Gator & H (GA)

    Gator & H (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Jan 3, 2010
    IMHO, a big juicy re-bound. :smile:

    I know you don't like SS but.... I might have backed off quite a bit on the dose especially when the nadir to PS was flat like that. But that's fine if it was re-bound. If it was you'll get another go-around and a chance to be more aggressive in lowering the dose.
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    ele i would say classic rebound which means blackie would be ore sensitive to insulin on his next shot. shoot low. either you have a sputtering pancrease trying to get some action in or you accidently shot more than 3u??? i doubt that happened. with the smaller 200bg # a smaller dose may have been what blackie needed.
    btw, will some one look at my post on diabetic health so i don't have to repost. lazy. question.
     
  5. Joanna & Bix (GA)

    Joanna & Bix (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    There is acute rebound & chronic rebound, maybe you are thinking of chronic in thinking it can't happen that fast?

    As I understand it, acute is from a too-steep drop or too-low #, where their liver reacts. The drop or the low is followed by sudden highs, and then with that at times you can see a lower PS at the end of the cycle. That is one reason for doing full curves - if the #s drop mid-cycle, then go high more or less 3/4 of the way through the cycle, and then start dropping back down after that, that is the classic acute Somogyi rebound pattern. [ETA: I learned this stuff back on Vetsulin, and am not sure if there are different subtleties on PZI. Today's disclaimer. :D ]

    Chronic rebound is high flat #s, and that kind takes some time to develop, from a dose that has been too high for a while (I don't know what the timeframe is).

    So yes, by the highs at the end of the cycle it looks to me like it could be acute Somogyi rebound. I wouldn't overly panic though, and I'm not actually convinced that's what it is, because I am not seeing that steep a drop, or any #s that are too low. So to me that means there is no trigger that would lead to rebound.

    I'm thinking it could be more in the liver training category. Not saying I'm 100% certain that is what is going on, just what looks probable to me. To me it looks like a nice breakthrough, followed by panicky liver. Heck, I'd panic if I were him & saw a 55, even if it is a perfect #! I saw some similar patterns with Bix - nice #s, and then all of a sudden a crazy 500-something at the end. Once he was in sustained good #s for a while, that kind of thing settled way down (and none of my trials of lowering the dose were ever productive).

    If it is acute rebound, it should settle down hopefully in a cycle or two, and a slightly lower dose when you get good overlap again like that should prevent a recurrence, I would think. If it's liver training, I would expect you will have to stay at 3u or even go a bit higher to get back to good #s, and then you'll have to keep battling it out til his liver settles down. Either way, I'm sure you are up to the challenge!!! And it's really nice to see some greens for him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

    [I'm starting to think of it as "useful rebound" (protecting body from actual true low # or steep drop that could lead to that) and "needless rebound" (liver training). Both being rebound, just with different causes (or "Rebound Without a Cause" :roll: I guess for liver training). And different treatments: useful = dose really is too high, useless = dose probably isn't too high (though reductions still could be needed on low PS or with awesome overlap in play). Not sure if all that is useful to anyone but me. :D ]
     
  6. Ele & Blackie (GA)

    Ele & Blackie (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Thank you all for the great input. Now that I have a few more numbers, I tend to agree with Joanna that the rebound is really a panicky liver that needs a little training. He never got into low numbers last night, nor this morning. So I stuck with the 3 units and we'll get a mid-cylcle check today. I was hoping that Blackie would give me a low number this am like he used to when he needed a dose decrease, but it didn't happen.
     
  7. Sarah and Buzz

    Sarah and Buzz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    "Rebound Without a Cause", hahahahahahaha!!! :) I love it!

    If we're casting votes here (and really, why not?), I would say panicky liver is the culprit. I say that because Blackie isn't used to low #s and 55 was really low (although like Joanna said, it was actually perfect). I also might have panicky liver on the brain, since that's pretty much the only type of rebound I see anymore.

    I am eager to hear what his #s are this afternoon since you stuck with the same dose. Shoot that liver into submission! Show it who's boss! :lol:
     
  8. MicheleS

    MicheleS Member

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    Jan 25, 2010
    I'm voting rebound too! stupid liver. cat(2)_steam

    BTW~ Have any of ya'll tried shooting low but TID (q8hr)? You'd get a flatter line (because of overlap). I used to use that method with ultralente. Just a thought. (It only works well if you have an at-home person or more than 1 "shooter", obviously!)
     
  9. Joanna & Bix (GA)

    Joanna & Bix (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I'm impressed if you did well with it! I've tried to no avail - I think I never shot enough insulin for it to work. I'm pretty sure Ele has tried to once or twice & if I recall didn't care for it much. Both Blackie & Bix seem to get pretty good duration (o.k. Bix's is a week now... guess that qualifies, right? lol), so that always confused me - Blackie with his late nadirs especially.

    Sometimes I see newbies who I think would benefit from TID - good nadirs but high PSs and not great duration yet. But I was so lame with it myself ohmygod_smile I shy away from advising it much. Plus all the testing you have to do was overwhelming for me. I don't know about with ultralente insulins, but with PZI from what I understand you are only supposed to shoot on a rising # (which you can't count on at +8 like you can at +12) so that makes a minimum of 6 tests just for the shots, not to mention spot checks.

    Some have done that with PZI though with great success - so great I guess that they aren't around much to pass on their skills & knowledge :lol:
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    ele you must think i'm such a lurker with poor blackie but i do look at his SS becuase honestly i've never seen a SS quite like blackie's!
    could'nt help but notice i think it was the 15th where you shot him on what looked like his way down still....i understand you knew he'd eventually be going up. but it looks like overshooting one or two more times immediatly following threw him that rebound curve which i still believe is his cause for those biggie #'s.
    IMHO, and btw, it looks like that shot brought him up and not down.
    tell me to just go away already and i will, i just see this pattern with him. i know others and yourself included see it differently.
    it must be sooooo hard to decide with those kind of high's.
     
  11. Ele & Blackie (GA)

    Ele & Blackie (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    FYY - We did TID for a short time to get Blackie's bg's under control and find the right dose. It helped, but it was hard to maintain that schedule. You can see it on the other worksheet on his spreadsheet.

    Lori, I still welcome your input - don't go away. Maybe Blackie is just different cuz of his age, other health issues? I'm always open to input.

    We had a weird day today:
    amps 401 3u
    +6 391
    +11 304
    pmps 311 2.8u

    I did lower the dose, but Blackie hasn't been eating as well as usual. I suspect it's the Clavamox, because he's never had an appetite problem before. I also am wondering if the Clavamox is working. It's been almost a week. I'm calling the vet tomorrow.
     
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