BRADY IS PEEING OUTSIDE BOX FOR A COUPLE DAYS, NEED SUGGESTIONS

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Irish Pat, Jun 10, 2020.

  1. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/bradys-journey.230167/#post-2582173

    First off I want to thank you girls for the help last night and sorry about my computer locking up on me...not good timing obviously. Deb im so sorry you stayed up and were exhausted...I hope you feel better today....Elizabeth, I truly appreciate you checking in on me and the willingness to help me out.


    He ate LC food, just shy of a 1/4 can at +2...When I saw that didn't stop him or even slow him down at +3, I gave him some MC food, a little, but let him really lick some of the gravy....Yes Deb, there was some food, not a lot...I read on other posts that people give the gravy to slow them down or raise the sugar back up...anyways...that didn't slow him down either...so when I saw that he was continuing to drop fast I gave him MC food (14%) at +4, his normal feeding time, gravy and food, about 1/4 can...So in all he had a 1\2 can, actually more of LC and MC food in him since +2...It didn't slow him down a bit, right away at least.....He ended up going down to 90 @+4.5....Finally at +5 he bumped up a bit to 106. I took his sugar a couple more times at +5.25 and +5.5 and saw that he was rising....finally sat down in my recliner for a breather and next thing I know Im waking up +8, scared I might add....I quick went to check on him and he was up to 208, in fact that's where he was a t AMPS, 208...Didn't bounce at all Deb....not sure why on that either...this is new...he always shoots way up when he goes low so fast....Maybe the bounce is coming today.

    I get scared when he drops so fast, he went from 375 to 90 (285 pts) in basically 4.5 hours.....Im assuming that is falling fast....I have no idea why he falls fast...He is either flat throughout a cycle or when his body decides its going to get to low numbers, his body is going to drop him very fast...that's how Brady's body is treating insulin......I don't know if this is normal or not...can someone shed some light on this for me....I feared if I didn't feed him to slow him down he was going to drop to very very low numbers...I don't know if that would have happened or not, I don't want that to happen.....im not sure why food isn't slowing him down either....all the posts I read, give the cat food and that will raise his sugar, either LC, MC or HC...well its not for my sugar baby!!!

    Brady's inconsistency worries me and I don't know how to fix it or treat it....Today with that 208 and me being the only one on at work, I dropped his dose to 2.5U....let see what happens

    @Deb & Wink
    @Panic
    @Marje and Gracie
     
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  2. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Glad to hear Brady did alright last night! I figured either your internet was acting up or Brady was doing okay. :)

    For what it's worth, Panic had a few instances where I gave her MC food and it didn't slow her down either so keep that in mind that Brady might need more than just the gravy. Better too high than too low!
     
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  3. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020

    Thank you so much for responding....Yes, I did give him the food too but really let him have some gravy, im glad you told me that for future instances....which I hope are extremely limited....This is going to be a rough couple days with things we have going on, have to step out for a while the next few days to travel up the road a way to get some things for our newly refinished floors......decision time to keep him safe
     
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  4. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Gravy wears off fast. It might bring the BG levels back up quickly, but it's effects won't last. That is why you need to let him eat a bit of the food too. But not so much that it fills him up and he won't eat again if you need him to. Karo syrup and honey wear off fast too. Usually within an hour or 2.

    Elizabeth (user name Panic) has used Prozinc in the past. So has JanetNJ. I saw that Elizabeth was still on so it's why I asked if she could keep an eye on Brady and you last night. Too many late nights for me recently.
    Is that fast you ask? Well, it's definitely more of a drop than we like to see, which would be around 50% from pre-shot to nadir. But still within reason. Remember, you are using the MPM protocol and the numbers can drop to 50.

    Has Brady had a symptomatic hypo ever? Lately? Or you are just scared of him having one?

    The real question you need to ask yourself Pat, is when is Brady's onset? Would you tell me that please. (quiz time)
     
  5. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    No he hasn't and yes I am scared of him having one, I think every diabetic cat CG is probably scared of that.....My thing is when he attempts to get to good numbers he drops so fast ALL the time.....and then its sky rocket back up to the 500's....as he did today...Deb, as fast as he dives and doesn't stop or slow down...I don't know what to do....People say feed the curve, I tried LC food...He continued to free fall downward....and yes, I am scared he will go way way way down...Do you know when he would stop if I didn't feed him? The simple answer is no, so if he dropped 280 some points in 4 hours, where would he have ended up if I would not have fed him some food, these are the very confusing and scary things to me.....


    Quiz time....ut oh....I wish I could answer the question with consistency but i cant, last evening onset was right at +1, he dropped from 375 to 305 in the first hour, so im assuming the insulin kicked in right away....other times onset happens all across the board......if you could give me a consistent onset from Brady, I would sure love to know what it is...I feel like little Johnny in the back of the room that is clueless....hahahaha
     
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  6. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    Now I have bigger issues going on and no clue what to do, this is getting to be very difficult on us....the last couple days, Brady has started peeing everywhere outside his box, not sure what this all about...I fear something else is going on, this is something new that he hasn't done before and its happening frequently...….any thoughts....we just payed a lot of money to refinish hardwood floors, im really worried he may go there......Good night everyone

    @Deb & Wink
    @Panic
    @JanetNJ
    @jt and trouble (GA)
     
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  7. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Remember to take meter variance into consideration.
    Remember to take the food influence into consideration.
    Try again.

    So if you don't know when onset is with a particular dose of insulin, it means you need to test to find that out. It's your responsibility and you have the means to do that, not my responsibility.

    Prozinc does not kick in right away. Maybe if you are giving it IM (intramuscular) it could. But it takes time to have an effect when given subq (sub-cutaneously).

    NPH insulins kick in right away, within 15-20 minutes. It's why NPH users are advised to feed at least 1 hour before the insulin shot, so the food has time to get into the body and counterbalance the insulin. Vetsulin/Caninsulin kicks in within 1 hour or so. It's why Vetsulin/Caninsulin users are advised to feed at least 20-30 minutes before the insulin shot, so the food has time to get into the body and counterbalance the insulin.

    Not so with Prozinc. Prozinc takes longer to start working.

    As long as you are scared of a hypo happening, and I mean a symptomatic hypo, you are never going to get Brady regulated. AND HE HAS NEVER HAD A HYPO or been really close to the lower BG levels for that to be a concern. 50 Pat, when he drops below 50 is when you intervene with HC food to bring his BG numbers back up. Or rub honey or corn syrup or maple syrup on his gums.

    UTI is the most common reason. Temporarily, you could confine him in a room like a bathroom or laundry room with tiled/vinyl floors where he can't pee on your brand new refinished floors. Litter box avoidance is usually from something painful so he is associating the box with the pain.
     
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  8. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    Puppy pads are your friend if you need some help as well.

    Some cats are more bounce-prone than others. It can take a long time (ie. months) for their bodies to not do it as much. Brady is a very new diabetic, remember. There's a lot for his body to be processing right now. Some caregivers switch to Lantus since it gives flatter curves and results in fewer bounces.

    You have a lot of data already. When does it look like the BG start dipping most often? At +1? +2? +3? Put in consideration if Brady is coming down from or going up due to a bounce. Once you determine onset, have food available at that time. Do you have scheduled meals at all?
     
  9. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    Most likely a UTI . I hope not but...:rolleyes: probably.
    I agree with Elizabeth puppy pads work well.
     
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  10. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020

    He does have scheduled feedings...He is fed at each PS, 3/4 can of Friskies low carb and then the other 1/4 can at +4 AM and PM.....That's the thing, onset is difficult for me to determine....It looks like it changes a lot to me...just as Brady is new to being diabetic, I to am really new at this...never new anyone with the disease, pet or human. Im thinking his onset is anywhere from the +1 to +4 the way it looks.....I may just not be getting this as hard as I try.....

    As far as puppy pads, are they something you lay around the litter box or something you just lay around in an area? He is peeing way outside of his box, like in a corner not the same corner, not the same place.....it is getting tough on us I know that but we are trying.....God we are trying......tears from both of us, I know that.....

    But thank you for your help
     
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  11. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Brady looks like he tends to have a food bump at +1 but by +2 we usually see a dip (unless he's doing something bounce-related). I'm not great with reading spreadsheets either, numbers have always been the bane of my existence, but focus on the patterns.

    Let's start making it easier too. There are times when you're getting +1 or +2 and other times the earliest cycle check is +4. Let's aim for a +1 or +2 every cycle (assuming your schedule allows it). If you notice most of those +1 readings are food bumps, you may switch to only +2 tests. If you notice those +2 tests start to look like food bumps then maybe start checking those +3. FD is a moving target unfortunately!

    Once onset hits you want a snack. +4 is a little late for a first snack. Here's an example: my girl's onset was +2, nadir was usually +6. Scheduled meals were placed at onset (+2), and then another couple meals shortly before nadir (+4 and +5). I like to think of it as someone in an airplane. Food makes you fly up toward the sun, insulin makes you dip down towards the ocean. You don't want to drown or burn up, but rather coast right above the water. :)

    I don't have experience with UTIs (knock on wood) but if he's not going in the same place it sounds like he's having trouble holding it rather than not wanting to use the box. When Panic was struggling with regulation she would go anywhere, but she did develop a trend of areas, so I put pads down anywhere she'd already gone. The house looked questionable but she usually ended up on the pads.
     
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  12. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020

    I am reading and digesting your other comments above....But to answer this, he actually goes down to his boxes, we have two, two cats....but he is walking right past them to go in another area in our carpeted basement....I mean our house is a little bit of a wreck right now with the contractors doing some work, they are almost all done so a slight normal will be back soon......
     
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  13. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    The contractors are in and out of the house? I wonder if he's upset about them/the mess being there.
     
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  14. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Well not really a constant in and out....the guys were here all last week doing the floors, didn't really bother him....today there is other guys here working on my banisters.....but he is curious about them more than anything.....Im just wondering if it is behavioral due to all the poking and shot giving.....not sure.....
     
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  15. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Is Brady squatting and peeing, or is he territorial marking? Does he back up to a wall or something, and lift his tail and spray (territorial marking)? Or is he squatting down on the carpet, like he thinks he is in a litter box? Neuropathy bothering him?

    Cats don't pee outside the box because they are mad at you, or getting back at you for BG testing. There is a reason they pee outside the box and the most likely reason is that they have come to associate peeing in the box with pain (like from a UTI) or from fear (someone scared them away from the litter box). Or someone yelled at them, or physically hit them, or tried to hit them. Discipline during or after the fact of peeing outside the box DOES NOT WORK.

    You need to find a product like Nature's Miracle or something and spray the area where Brady has gone, so he doesn't keep smelling that urine smell and think it's an ok spot to use as his litter box. You need to give that carpeted basement area a very thorough cleaning, where Brady has peed. All the way down to and into the carpet pad needs to be cleaned. You know he has gone in a spot, clean up as much as possible with some old towels, or whatever you have on hand. Soak up as much of the urine as possible. Then hit the spot with your cleaning product and thoroughly clean it.

    As long as Brady's BG levels remain so high, above the renal threshold, the kidneys will need to work hard to filter out the excess blood glucose. Those sugars then get dumped in the bladder and urinary tract where they provide a very nutrient rich environment for bacteria to grow. It's why UTI's are so common in diabetic cats.

    Think of a diabetic cat as having urge incontinence, where there is so much fluid in the bladder, because there is too much sugar in the blood, the kidneys work overtime and a cat CAN'T make it to your preferred litter box location. Add another litter box, where he is peeing. Add 2 more boxes if you need to.

    Brady has passed the 3 month mark since diagnosis, so not a really newly diagnosed feline diabetic anymore. Every time you reduce the dose, because you "fear" a hypo, you are setting back his progress. At some point, you have to decide to give Brady the full dose, even if he is lower than you expected at pre-shot. You need to stop "fearing" something that has never happened, a symptomatic hypo, and give him the amount of insulin he needs, instead of the reduced dose. A reduced dose because the pre-shot is lower than you expected, is for the convenience of the caregiver, not the good of the diabetic cat.

    You know how to feed Brady and bring his numbers back up. You know how to retest and guide the numbers with food. You know you can reach for the "simple sugar" (corn syrup, honey) to bring the BG's up fast. You know how to post on Feline Health if you need some help in guiding you with low numbers (low's being <60, <70).

    208 is not low. 150 is not low. 100 is not low.
     
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  16. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Someone here told me I never need to fear shooting a lower number as long as I'm monitoring and have all the supplies I need. :)
    It IS scary, but don't be scared.
     
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  17. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Hi guys, sorry its been a while, we have some immediate family health issues that has our family very concerned and have been battling this for the last several days....prayers are needed

    Got a call into the vet about Brady's accidents outside the box.....also, no matter what i try to slow him down nothing is workinwasg...I have a very bouncy kitty, I give LC food a +1, +2 +3, or normal feeding at +4...tried several things......

    I guess a question I have now, is if he does have some sorta of infection or something else going on, would this contribute to his numbers being all over the place....

    Yesterday was a great day until he reached that 96 then up we goooooooo.....no MC or HC food was given, i wanted to let the dosage play out and naturally he bounced.....Im waiting to hear from the vet on how she wants to proceed, he does have an apt next week but I think I want some tests run sooner.....especially urine....any thoughts?
     
  18. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Apr 10, 2019
    It looks like he's still bouncing to me. An infection would raise the numbers but he's still hitting lower numbers.

    What was the reason for dropping the dose to 2.5 on the 12th/13th and then back up to 3u? Actually what was the reason for dropping him from 3.25 as well?

    Will keep you in my prayers. :bighug:
     
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  19. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020

    We were in and out of the house due to what is going on.....its been a tough situation with everything going on right now...trying our best
     
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  20. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Mar 14, 2020
    2020 is obviously a year we want to forget...all around
     
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  21. Panic

    Panic Well-Known Member

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    Gotcha. That may be part of the problem numbers-wise.
    No kidding. Can't think of a worse year. :blackeye:
     
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  22. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Every day every cycle....lets bounce....
     
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  23. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    How are things going Pat?
     
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  24. Irish Pat

    Irish Pat Member

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    Things are ok, little chaotic at times but things are going ok....We are doing the best we can right now....Waiting on the urine test results to see if anything is going on there....

    Thank you for reaching out to check on us and caring...really appreciate it Deb....things will get better!!
     
  25. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Yes, yes they will.
     

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