Buddy's SS up and going 7th part about dosing

I started this thread for help in dosing Buddy Cat

 

Give 2.6 u again tonight and tomorrow then go up to 2.8 u on Monday AM I think. You leave to go to church on Sundays so that's not a good day to raise the dose. Is Buddy eating well and feeling OK?

 

He has been wanting to eat every time I take a BG reading, but he has been eating FF classic and YA. I was surprised when his numbers did not change on 2.6U. If no change tonight and tomorrow, will change to 2.8 on Monday. Hopefully, he will continue wanting to eat.

 

Good news that he wants to eat!

 

Feast or Famine.

 

Looking good so far, Teresa. I vote for trying 2.8 u tomorrow.

 

@Kris & Teasel , When you get a chance look at Buddy today @+6. This is the 1st time at +6, since his dose has been 2.6U that it was this low. I believe that he was lower this morning than he has been being.

On Sunday afternoon and later in the evening Buddy was bouncing. I decided to go ahead and up his dose to 2.8, per the advice of Kris. I think Kris is helping a lot of us newbies.

 

What a lovely blue you had yesterday! Considering those higher numbers last night, that was a really good preshot you had today. I'm hopeful this dose will bring him down mid cycle too!

 

Hi Teresa,

Don't worry about that red at +6 last night. It's a bounce from that nice blue yesterday. I agree with Rachel - this morning's PS is great after that red. Let's see what the 2.8 u will do.

 

What is normal or average BG for felines.

 

A diabetic that's well controlled on an insulin like ProZinc should have PSs in the low to mid 200s and a nadir in the low 100s or high double digits. Kitties in remission or non-diabetics will have significantly lower BGs.

I like the 226 at +3.

 

Well, look at that string of yellows, Teresa! Some of the pros on the Lantus forum say that a string of yellows can be a warning that kitty is going to go into lower BGs. I don't know if this is true all the time but it might be good to keep this in the back of your mind.

 

I see the pink this AM. He might have dropped a little last night.

 

I will definitely keep this in mind and if it happens I will be trying to get in touch with you to see what to do next.

 

I suggest you keep this dose for a couple of cycles. Try to get some mid cycle and before bed tests to see how low he goes - if he's not bouncing, that is.

 

I like the increased number of yellow PSs, Teresa. He's bouncing a bit in the middle but that's OK. Is he eating and feeling well?

 

He is so picky about what he eats, now he is eating FF Chunky and some YA. I think the chunky has 1 or 2 more carbs than FF Classic. I know there is another dry food on the list and I need to find out what it is so he can try it. Buddy got sick with pancreatitis while he was eating Friskies pate, since then he does not like pate style cat food. He had ate nothing but Purina OM for several years, he would have nothing to do with wet food. One of the other cats was eating a FF grilled, we gave him a taste of it and he loved it. He was eating the FF grilled when he got sick, so now I give it to him when his numbers get low. Rachel mentioned about FortiFlora so I got some to sprinkle on Buddy's food when he was acting picky and it has helped. I have been worried about his numbers creeping back into the 300's. I don't know if the YA, FF chunky or FortiFlora would make a big difference. For a while I could tell he had lost weight but I think he has picked it back up.

 

I believe the other dry food is Evo.

 

Did you ever try any of the Friskies ones I use for Maury? He's not a big pate boy, either. Also, saw these that might be appetizing to Buddy:
Meow Mix - Pate Toppers
9% - Chicken w/ Shreds of Chicken
8% - Salmon w/ Flakes of Tuna

 

Thank you.

 

I will see if I can find any of these at the stores. I really appreciate it.

 

I don't think I can get those Friskies types here in Canada. Mind you, I'm lucky because Teasel eats anything. At least he cuts me some slack on that front!

 

I have 5 cats and every one of them is picky. Buddy got some food aversions from being sick with pancreatitis.

 

@Kris & Teasel, I would like your opinion on something. This morning I decided to change Buddy's dose to 3U. Do you think I jumped the gun. It seemed to me his numbers were going up and not down. Sorry to bother you, I know some Kitty Moms are in desperate situations.

 

Hi Teresa,

I think the increase is warranted. You had some greens around 3 u early on. You also had green at lower doses but he might be a little resistant after being in yellow and pink a lot. The only way to know is to increase carefully to see what happens.

I haven't been on quite as much for a couple of days and yesterday I had to deal with a dead hot water tank here at home.

 

Ugh! A dead hot water tank would NOT be good!

Teresa, I know Kris already said it, but I just want to second that! Those slow and steady increases seem to be working, judging by the yellows you've been getting lately but you still want to go lower...hopefully you'll get some blues and greens soon!

 

Buddy's original dose was 3U. I am hoping this is the right dose for him. Sorry, that you are dealing with back pain and a dead hot water tank. Both of these issues cause a big problem.

 

I have been getting more pink since Buddy's dose went to 2.8u. Buddy does need some blues and greens, but the greens scare me. As always I appreciate your reply.

 

Hi Teresa,
Buddy is staying high-ish and flat. I'd try 3.25 u tomorrow AM. He might have some insulin resistance going on. It's possible that it's just bouncing and his dose is too high. Hard to say.

 

I was wondering about bouncing, when I looked back on his SS his numbers seem to be lower when he was taking a dose in the 2u's. I was sure his numbers would drop when he went to 3u. I will be gone in the mornings for a few days, so I will stay at 3u until I can be here. I also think he has been eating too much. If he is still staying high-ish and flat, the 1st day that I will be here most of the day he will be changed to 3.25u. When dosing is done in small increments it doesn't seem like a big deal. How do you get blood for testing, do you prick Teasel's ear or use a lancet device. Buddy's ears are pretty red from me using a lancet device to get blood for testing.

 

I don't use the trigger device for ear pricking. I put the lancet into it to make a holder that's easier to hold and then I free hand the poke. I find it easier to aim this way.

Re numbers: if he's eating quite bit and it's medium to high in carbs that could explain the highs. I think you give him YS dry too, right? Some people find it affects BG even though it's low in carbs. I know you feed Fancy Feast - pate types only?

 

He has been eating FF Chunky, the carbs in it are 4 and the carbs in pate are 2 or 3. Everything else is pretty much the same as the pate, got the info from Dr. Lisa Pierson's charts. He does eat a small amount of YA, think I will hold this.

 

The FF sounds fine, Teresa. Try withholding the YA for a bit to see if it makes a difference.

 

Hi Teresa,

Yes, you're in a puzzling spot dose wise. The blue from a couple of nights ago tells me that the insulin is working. The drops from pink to yellow the last several days say the same thing. The numbers aren't flat. I think it's a case of being insulin resistant rather than the dose being too high and causing bouncing. If you put these numbers on a graph they'd give you a "smile" shaped curve that is typical of ProZinc. However, the number range is too high suggesting a dose that's too low for where he is at this point in time. My suggestion is to give 3.2 u for 3 cycles, not 3 days, and then try 3.4 u. If it's resistance, sitting at an ineffective dose too long only makes it worse. You have to work around your own schedule though.

 

I started him this morning on 3.2U, because I will be home all day and he started the day in the 300's. Yesterday he did not have any YA and I cut back some on the FF chunky, but his numbers were still high. We will see what happens with this dose, if his numbers do not go down we will move on to a higher dose. What would make Buddy become insulin resistant.

 

They can become resistant for any number of reasons including infection or some other health issue. One of the simplest is "glucose toxicity" meaning the negative effect on cells that being in high numbers for too long can have. They lose responsiveness to insulin such that a dose that gave good/better results previously won't work as well/at all anymore. The way to deal with that is to carefully raise the dose until you get some good numbers showing up. Once that happens they can become more sensitive to insulin again and possibly need a reduced dose.

 

At AMPS+3, Buddy's BG # 202. This is 1 of his lowest numbers at +3. I hope this u of insulin works well for Buddy, maybe this will help his pancreas.

 

Looking good, Teresa! It's a fairly big drop from the AMPS so it's possible that he might bounce later. Time will tell ...

 

Well look at that blue! Well done Buddy!

 

Beautiful blues, Buddy!

 

More blue - hurray!!

 

If Buddy was awake and if Buddy could talk human he would say '' THANK YOU "

 

I think being happy about the blues was a little premature. At PMPS Buddy's # 361. I can't figure out what happened, I tried to check him early to see if he was going real low, but that did not seem to be the case. If he was headed real low I would have feed him some to stop a bounce.

 

That's really not bad at all, Teresa. Try not to let one number get you down. It's a moderate bounce from the blues. Let's see how he does on this dose tomorrow.

 

Could still be a bit of a bounce simply because he isn't USED to the blues.

 

Even if he was at 338 again, the 361 is within the 20% variation. Wouldn't that mean 338 could essentially be between 270 - 405? That is kind of more depressing Sorry.

 

Buddy was high again this morning @331 AMPS +5 @280. Don't know if his food is the problem, he has been eating FF Chunky Chicken Feast it has 47 % Protein, 50% Fat, 4% Carbs and 88 calories. I try to keep Buddy at 1 1/2 per each shot, but I must admit sometimes he is still hungry and I give him more. How much do the rest of you feed your cats, the carbs, fat and calories. Buddy is not fond of pate cat food, I thought I had hit the jackpot when I found the FF chunky.

 

That's really not that high, Teresa. Keep this dose tonight and if he doesn't go any lower than those recent blues, increase to 3.4 u tomorrow AM. You have to keep up the dose pressure (carefully) to get him responding more.

 

I have been in and out today, when I was in earlier I took a reading and I gave him some FF chunky ( which I am beginning to wonder about). When I came back this last time his reading was 331. I have 2 reli-on meters, I went and took a reading with the other 1 it was 295, I went back to the meter I had been using and it was 277. This was with in 2 -3 span, what is his blood sugar. How much canned food do you feed a day, or does that matter. Do I need to count calories, if we need to stay below 10 carbs I wonder if that means our cats can eat 2 1/2 cans each meal if the canned food has 4 carbs.

 

Those readings are all within the 20% allowed variance for meters. As far as food goes, you can feed generously if Buddy needs to gain weight. The carb level is more important as an influence on BG and more so in some cats than others. Try not to worry about individual numbers and focus on patterns over time instead.

 

You are gradually shifting colors, Teresa . Next colour to cut, Pink! I think you're on a good track! I keep trying to tell Maury I'm tired of pink and reds

 

Thank you, Both of you tomorrow Buddy will start on 3.4u and we will see how that goes. I found out last Saturday my deceased husband's brother had died. My husband name was Danny, his brother's name was David, David had diabetes. Several years ago he lost a leg at the knee, I did not know at that time he also had several heart attacks. Some time in 2016 David lost another leg, then I find out he had a massive heart attack and died. I know the first leg was lost because of uncontrolled diabetes and I am pretty sure that is what caused all of David's problems. This has caused me to be on a mission to get Buddy's diabetes under control.

 

Pardon my punctuation I was in a hurry and did not check myself.

 

Completely acceptable . Sorry to hear about your brother-in-law, may he rest in peace

 

One thing that might give you a bit of hope is that in general kitties don't suffer the same number of complications as diabetic dogs and humans do.

 

Glad to hear that. Kris, are you a veterinarian.

 

No, I'm not Teresa. My vet told me this.

 

Buddy has had 3 - 3.4u of prozinc. It has not seemed to lower his numbers.

 

Too soon to tell, Teresa. Here's my thinking: he hasn't gone below blue on 3.2 u and so far on 3.4 u. That suggests you're not yet at a high enough dose. However, the fact that he has dropped from pink or yellow to blue tells me that he's responding to the insulin when he isn't in a bounce cycle. You can't judge a dose from a bounce cycle. It has to be judged from a non-bounce cycle. I suggest you keep at 3.4 u today and plan to try 3.6 u tomorrow AM if you can monitor. He's built up some insulin resistance and you need to break through that. Careful dose increases will get you there.

 

I really appreciate all of your knowledge, I would be at a loss without you. I will raise tomorrow to 3.6u. Buddy cries a lot wanting more food, I keep thinking maybe he is eating too much, but what do you do when they follow you around wanting more food. I took 1 of my cats in today to see their old vet, while there I ran into a lady with a diabetic cat. This ladies cat was on 6u of ProZinc and she had never ran a BG test on him. I told her about FDMB.

 

What is his feeding schedule / amounts?

 

Buddy is eating FF Chunky Chicken. I give him 2 cans for the morning shot and 2 cans for the evening shot. If he does not eat it all at one sitting, I save what is left for later when he is hungry. He has no treats or snacks, just what is left from each dose. Sometimes he would like to have more. I do no how much anyone else is feeding their kitty. Buddy did weigh 12 lbs., but I am not for sure of his weight now. He does not need to gain weight.

 

Maury does need to gain a little weight but here are his meals:
Breakfast 1/2 can Friskies (2.25oz) Fill 1/4 cup YA dry
Lunch +4 : 1/3 can (1.83oz)
Dinner 1/2 can Friskies (2.25oz). Fill 1/4 cup YA dry
Lunch +3: 1/3 can (1.83oz)

The lunches helped him from being extra hungry by meal time. He doesn't always finish his dry because he wants to wait for his wet food If he doesn't finish a meal or lunch right away, I leave it there for him to come back later. Just try to take it up 2 hours prior to PS test.

 

I bought some YA dry for Buddy to use as a snack or treat. His BG did not seem to come down much, so I have not been giving him YA. FF is 3oz X4=12oz a day and he would like more. Buddy's food is stopped 2 hours prior to testing. When I was giving the YA, I don't think he wanted as much of the canned food as now. I hope it is not the food, maybe we can get him to where he needs to be without him going hungry.

 

Could you try 1 1/2 cans for meals and give him other 1/2 for snack later? Kind of like I do for Maury.

 

Sure, that is kind of what I do anyway. I try to keep some for later in the day or evening.

 

Buddy's dose changed today and this is the lowest I have seen his BG numbers in a while. I took a reading at AMPS+5 and like the dummy I am did my usual, feed Buddy. I wanted to take a reading at AMPS+6, but now I have to wait 2 hrs.

 

Sam grazes all day, so if I waited the two hours during the mid-cycles, I'd either never get to test, or he'd never get to eat. I think you can go ahead and get the +6 test, and then maybe just add a note that he had food. Although I guess if Buddy ate a lot....? Sam usually just has a couple of bites at a time. Hopefully someone else will weigh in on this too.

 

Buddy ate more than I would like but I did get a reading at AMPS+5. The reason I wanted at AMPS+6, is because he started a new dose today and tomorrow I will be at church. I am paranoid about HYPO.

 

It looks like Buddy is up in very safe numbers and still has lots of room before he's in hypo territory. I think he'll be just fine tomorrow while you're gone.

That being said, I do understand the fear. Every time I come home and Sam's still alive, I breathe a sigh of relief. We all worry about our fur babies!

 

Well, son of a gun, Teresa! Isn't that a nice blue! Try not to worry about a hypo. If you need more peace of mind give him a little snack of higher carb food just before you leave for church tomorrow.

 

Did not you come home not to long ago and your kitty was diving.

 

Yes, it was about three weeks ago (3/18/17). But he had just had a major change in food a couple of days earlier, which can (and in his case did) have a big impact on his ability to respond to the insulin.

 

I was beginning to think maybe his FF Chunky was a higher carb food. Guess I could give some Purina OM or YA.

 

I thought he did and several other kitty's took a big dive that day. What do you feed your fur baby.

 

She's talking about 18 March, when Sam and Maury had lime greens

 

Oh, and I think Kris and Teasel might have been in on the lime-green party that day too. And maybe someone else too? That was an odd day!

I feed Sam a whole menu worth of foods depending on the day: Fancy Feast Classics, Friskies classic pates, and frozen raw from Nature's Instinct and Primal are the most common. They get bored with food and will stop eating it though, so I mix in other things every few days too. I just pick something off the list and go buy a couple of cans to give them some variety.

The food that I'm pretty sure brought Sam back into diabetes was Stella and Chewy's Salmon and Chicken. Turns out it's really high in carbs (despite what the package indicates). When I found out and took him off of that, his numbers improved a ton. But it takes awhile to heal from the damage that was done. (yes, I'm still angry about that)

 

I like that you're getting more yellow pre shot numbers now.

 

I gave Buddy extra food this morning because I was leaving for several hours. I believe that has kept his numbers high today. I like pink, but not on Buddy's SS.

 

They're not that high, Teresa and your SS has more yellow now. That's a good sign.

 

Yep, kind of unfocus your eyes and take in the colors...that helps me sometimes since you aren't focused on the numbers.

 

I suggest upping to 3.8 u tomorrow AM Teresa.

 

I was thinking same thing Might see some more blues soon

 

Hi Teresa,

I see that you increased to 3.8 u this AM. Good call. This might jolt him into action. Slow careful increases will get him moving forward eventually. Sometimes we think that having to increase the dose means the insulin isn't working, the kitty is getting worse, or we're failing somehow. Not so! Buddy needs what he needs and that amount of insulin will fluctuate over time. He's a bit resistant right now because of being in slightly higher numbers but that will disappear once he's been at a more effective dose for a while. How is he feeling?

 

I did not see your post last night. It is now 11:15 a.m. and accidentally saw your post. I was gone most of the day yesterday or I would have changed his dose yesterday. He is starting to get into fairly high u of Prozinc, which makes me wonder should he be on a different insulin. Buddy seems to be doing alright, he is eating FF chunky and sleeping a lot.

 

Did not see your post last night. I did change his dose to 3.8u this morning. It is true great minds think alike.

 

It is true, great minds think alike.

 

Switching to another insulin doesn't necessarily mean the dose will go down. It can mean less bouncing in some cats or longer duration, etc, I think Buddy's ProZinc dose has to be slowly increased to see what it can do.

 

Just my two cents. He is responsive to the slow increases and even though it's tempting to rush progress (at least for me at times ), I think his numbers are pretty gentle curves

 

I hope to find a close to normal u of Prozinc soon, his little ears on the inside are so rosy colored where I have been poking him. If I could find the correct dose I would not need to poke his ears as much. Guess we are all doing the same thing, trying to help our kittys.

 

If tonight Buddy's BG does not get lower than it has been, I will be upping his dose to 4u in the morning.

 

Will you be around to monitor as usual? Sounds good otherwise

 

I should be around most of the day. Hoping this will help him, but he seems to be fine otherwise.

 

Him feeling fine is the important part, Teresa.

 

Hi Teresa,

Just wondering: when did you open this vial of ProZinc? Maybe put a thicker dividing line on your SS showing that? I think you should just continue what you're doing but it's good to pay attention to anything that can affect BG.

 

I opened this bottle of prozinc on 3/30/17. I had stopped a while back giving YA to him, because his numbers were high. I am going to go back and look at his SS.

 

The insulin should be good then. Just keep up the slow careful increases. He is responding but needs to come down more.

 

I went back and looked at Buddy's SS, around the time his numbers started to climb he has started eating FF chunky & FortiFlora. Maybe he is eating more because when I look back on the notes he had not been eating very well and had been throwing up. The only thing I could figure out to do for his SS on 3/30/17 was italicize and bold.

 

I see that. One thing to try is putting the cursor on that bolded date, click on it then go to the tool bar at the top left and click on "Insert". A menu will drop down. Select "Row Above". That will create a blank row above the bolded date and you can type in something about starting a new vial.