Charlie 2/20 still OTJ!

Today is day 16 OTJ :RAHCAT

After his initial dx last sept, he improved a bit; but not like this!! Super playful, eating & peeing well, and extremely soft fur! Last fall, I was so happy to see any improvement, that I had not realized how different he still was compared to before he was sick. His fur is like velvet (I forgot how soft he used to be), and when he plays; its like he has a thunderbolt shoved up his arse!

I let him play in the yard yesterday while I cleaned up the drooler's poopsicles; and he was thrilled! I didn't let him out after the dx much bc he was so sick--and then the snow came. It was heartbreaking because the backyard is his absolute favorite place (besides 'his' bathroom). Yesterday was a balmy 36 with sun and some of the snow melted; so I seized the opportunity to let him go out! He likes snow and was happy to check things out and make sure everything is still where he left it. Can't wait 'til their catnip starts growing in the spring!

I offered to be a 'test case' for our vet who has never had a client successfully hometest. Can't wait to see her reaction to our progress!

Check out Charlie's #'s--I want to show them off!! Every few days, I give those little orange ears a day off because he's not on insulin--so I figure its not crucial to get numbers every day. Wish us luck on his ride to the falls!

One question--I was calculating their calories, fat, carb, etc this am to see what they're getting on their new diet. Everything is on track, but I'm concerned about the phosp # bc I don't know what is acceptable. It seems the ff chick is pretty high. My two cats are getting a combined 1054 mg--is that a lot?

 

Congrats on Charlie's numbers!

 

Here is some good reading on Feline nutrition.

The short answer on P is according to SACN 4th ed Chapter 6 p 22: 0.5 - 0.7% DM P.
[there is now a new 5th ed that it seems no one on the board has yet]
http://www.markmorrisinstitute.org/atta ... ts%20b.pdf

The AAFCO minimum P is 0.5% DM - but that's for normal cats is is the general guideline for food manufacturers.

And the bottom line is that if you follow 05.-0.7% DM then most foods are way above that.

You can read a recent post of mine here about Phosphorous.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1921
also
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3023

If you are interested I have a slightly modified version of J&B's calorie calculator that I'd be happy to email to you [I've been thinking about making it a Google doc]. It might be more confusing to you than not. But if you are into calculating nutrients then it might be help. If you are up for home prepped food, you can also check the Home Cooked link in my sig and the knowwhatyoufeed.com site has quite a wonderful tool on it too.

I also have a bunch of the real deal as-fed or DM basis [not guaranteed analysis] datas I have gotten at the cost of a lot of my time from Wellness, Natural Balance and others. It's very hard to trust the numbers that these food companies furnish as they will often "lie" and provide their GA numbers when you ask for their DM or AF numbers. You are aware that you cannot use the numbers on the cat as as much of an indication of anything right?

How much DM% P or per 100Kcal P are you cats getting? You could back into the per 100 Kcal by using the 1000+ mg you calculated to see how much P they are getting based on the total Kcal your kitties are eating.

 

So happy for you that he is doing so well!!!! :mrgreen:

 

I am very happy for you and Charlie. Keep up the good work. :RAHCAT I loved the description of the thunderbolt. LOL Charlie must be feeling really good.

I have no facts to back this up, but I decided it would be better for all my cats to have lower phos food. So, I feed the civies Friskies Special Diet. I think there's one variety of FF that is fairly low in phos, but I don't remember which one. You can check Janet & Binky's and see what other foods are lower in phos. I aim for anything below 225.

 

Gator--
Thanks, those links helped.

They have been off the dry kibble since the 15th--the transition went a lot better than I thought it would!

Here's what I'm feeding two kitties with a combined 'healthy' weight that should be 24-25 lbs:
2 cans FF chick & 1 can friskies turkey & giblet or 1 can friskies liver & chick dinner.

What I don't understand is how to get a percentage of their daily phosp intake. Do you divide it into calories, protein, or what? J&B's table shows it as mg per kcal. Are the calories listed on the chart kcals as well? I have to admit I'm a little confused--I was never good at the nutrition thing anyway, I believe beer and chocolate should be their own food groups!!

They are getting a combined/per day:
protein---fat---carb---phosp---calorie
112-------172---4-7%---1054---375

eta--ele, i will try the special diet and see if they like it.

 

Jen,

I'm going to take a little bit to go over you post and get back to you with something collected [too much coffee right now to be effective] and I need a break. :smile:

In the mean time Here's J&B's FAQ that describes how to arrive at numbers [or how she arrives at numbers] + the link to the spreadsheet she uses to calculate as %Kcal and per 100 Kcal.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/foodfaq.html

Just for fun I also made a calculator you might like for calculating an approximate of how much your cats should eat [since you are getting into the whole nutrition thing]:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... nhPTXBEUUE
And I'll also try to get my version of the calorie calculator put in there today - it's just a fancier version of the same thing.

 

What OTJ mean?

 

Hi Joanne,
Glad you stopped by. OTJ means off the juice or doesn't need insulin anymore. We've had several kitties here lately on Prozinc, the replacement for Idexx PZI, that don't need insulin anymore. This is after changing the diet to low carb canned food.

I know others on Health have given you lots of advice on testing, food, etc., so hopefully that will help you. Feel free to post here anytime with questions or just to chat.
Ele

 

Hi Jen,
Here is a link to a spreadsheet that Erimess sent me. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... lM1E&hl=en She's the moderator of the CRF-FD yahoo group. If you can't read her notes, let me know and I'll post them separately. If you go all the way to the right (column S) and enter the dry matter information, it will calculate the mgs of phosphorus per 100 kcal as well as carbs, fat, fiber, etc. She filled it out for a couple of foods I was investigating.

I think it will be easier if you open the spreadsheet in Excel and save it rather than using it on Google.

Hope this helps.

 

OK Jen,

Which FF Chicken are you speaking of?

375 Kcal per day for a 25 lb cat seems potentially a little low. That would come out to a multiplication factor of just over 0.9 when calculating the MER/DER way. Are they completely sedentary, older, indoor kitties or are you on a weight loss diet?

Also I'm not understanding what measure 112 of protein is and 117 of fat is? The measures for both in J&B's carts are in % of Kcal [it's not possible to have more than 100%].

Turkey and Giblets Dinner
Pro - fat - CHO - fib - phos - kcal
33 - 60 - 7 - 0.2 - 260 - 187

Liver and Chicken Dinner
34 - 59 - 7 - 0.2 - 295 - 172

So basically one way about it if you want to get all precise about it is to create the weighted average for the diet. So the weighted average of the two above is 267.77 mg per 100 Kcal. However this does not account for the FF but if you send me which FF you are using then I can incorporate that for you.

Below is the quick spreadsheet I created to do this. You can save it for yourself and put the other numbers in below [the formula will accommodate up to row 8 for can of food.
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key ... FFPeFJaVUE

I hope I did this right?

Now to get that into %DM is beyond what I have time for tonight because I will have to do research on that [and would probably need to know the FF you are using]. But Wellness Turkey is about 200 mg per 100 Kcal and is about 1.07%DM P if that give you any guidelines. And there may be a quick less accurate way to get from mg per 100 Kcal to DM - and Janet would be the person to ask for that info. But ask if you want me to figure it out.

 

Gator-
I'm cracking up!! I added the percentages on J&B's chart for the different foods (protein and fat) Talk about a dumb blonde moment!! (yes, I'm blonde and have too many moments like that lately) Its been a couple of weeks of duh moments--hoping to 'reset' the brain tomorrow--I get like this every feb when I've been deprived of sunshine and warm weather. I'm an 80 and sunny kinda girl and I live in a frozen tundra!! But, I digress.

I'm feeding 2 cans of the FF gourmet chick feast and then one can of friskies (either the liver/chick or the turkey/giblet)
I am trying to get the porker C a little leaner, but I worry that my very little civie isn't getting enough. They don't eat everything I leave out for them, but do act hungry at feeding times. I figured if they don't finish all their food-they're getting enough. I used the 15cal per pound of cat calc. Is that wrong?

I just tried to add the phosp and kcal--spreadsheet wouldn't accept changes-is it locked for editing?

J&B list FF chick as: 402P and 93.6 kcal

Thanks for all the help, I really appreciate it. Whenever I start to get deeply involved in numbers, I have flashbacks to stats classes in college with ta's who didn't speak english well; and who we had to show how to use the graphing calculators the syllabus assigned for the course!!! (gonna have a couple cocktails now; self-medicating, I know, but what else can I do!?!)

 

We have plenty of beach and sunshine out here to share [and you'd feel at home among the blondes]. :mrgreen: That Lake Effect gray, gray, gray can really get to one.

So you can go to the weighted average SS again - I updated the numbers. I assumed one can of Friskies Turkey & Giblets Dinner and two cans of FF gourmet chick feast from the numbers you just presented. That makes an weighted average of 331 mg/100Kcal. Pretty darned high in my book [especially if you are concerned about P].

If you want to use the SS yourself you have to download it to your computer in excel format then upload it into your own Google docs.

Are you weighing your kitties?

 

I do love socal, am very fond of san diego and venice beach--been there a few times and every time, its hard to leave!
Thanks for all your work!!
The last time C was at the vets, she was concerned about the level of p in their food. My civie will be 11 next month, so I want to take a pro-active approach to their health. I don't want either one to have to deal with renal probs in their 'golden years', and it seems high p can attribute to those issues.

I do weigh them, by weighing myself, then me & the cat together (not scientific, I know, but its better than nothing). This am Molly is at 10lbs, and Charlie is at a fat 16--he should be around 14. (he's a piggy!!)

Thanks for the spreadsheet, I will play with a few other foods to try and get a better diet for them.

They go to the vets in two weeks for inoculations/checkups. I will see if there's any specific concern she has about their diet and ask for their bloodwork from last feb's dentals.

Thanks again for all your help, and can u send some of that cali sunshine this way!?

 

Since H has IBD and GI lymphoma of course I'm very big on no grain foods.

The Wellness Chicken or Turkey no grain are some of the lower P commercial foods out there at 200mg /100kcal. They are far from low enough in my book but would be a considerable improvement.

It's funny that I asked if you were doing a weight loss regimen. I've read that a multiplication factor below 1 [and down to a max of 0.8] using the DER/MER method is good for weight loss. The only thing I'd be trying to figure out is how to make sure the one who isn't supposed to be losing weight gets enough food. I'd be watching that one's weight almost more closely.

Here is a scale I like for weighing H [if you have $60 to spare]. It should be good for weighing up to a 16 lb cat [with a 1 lb lightweight cardboard filing box used to rest the kitty in]. And it is a great kitchen scale if you cook!
http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/my-weigh-kd8000.aspx
If you need more capacity the MyWeigh WR-12K is another option.

Good luck.