Dosage help for Logan please!..for Prozinc

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Logan & Sandy, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink @JanetNJ I just don't get it.. it seems like Logans numbers are inching up.. at first i thought they were going down,, the last curve i ran for logan was 12/25/20 and he was on 1 unit of prozinc.,.vet strongly discouraged me from raising his dose,, but i noticed his numbers going up so i decided to raise it to 1.10 and then went to 1.25.. i'm not sure whats changed or maybe he just needs more juice.. Logan "seems" fine.. but but.. i am not thrilled with his numbers..am kinda thinking he should go back up to 1.5?? thoughts appreciated! thx Sandy
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  2. FrostD

    FrostD Member

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    I've had the same issue for months now. Deb and Janet would be better to answer this, but I figured I'd pop in since you haven't had a reply.

    Are you shooting in the scruff? If so, make sure you're not going into the muscle. I saw some notes about possible furshots, but keep in mind you can also go too deep!

    After months of messing around, we had lab work done. All came back fine. Vet and I agreed we'd try Lantus before doing the more expensive testing for underlying conditions.

    In our case, the higher doses just kept his numbers higher - I had the same problem with both Vetsulin and ProZinc. I personally would go back down to around 1U for a week or so and see what happens. You can always continue to increase the dose, it's just easier to drop back to 1U now vs taking a month to do it gradually later on if you keep increasing the dose.
     
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  3. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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  4. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    Thankyou Frost D... no we aren't shooting into the muscle/or scruff of neck.. generally towards his rear lower tummy 3.5 inches+ from top of spine kind of between hind leg and tummy. he's at 1.25 now.. just not sure as of yet regarding dosage. thanks..i appreciate you replying,,am trying to be exxtra careful about not going deep, trying to keep needle parallel to his body and not doing furshots,, sandy
     
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  5. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @FrostD crazy numbers last nite.. +2 356 +5 230 +8 170 and this AM (amps) 158. I decided to keep him at 1.25 for the moment.. maybe its the new vial being more potent than the old one.. i don't know!
     
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  6. FrostD

    FrostD Member

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    Good!

    I was thinking last night he might just be bouncing a lot at this dosage. Although the numbers aren't super low, that drop from mid-300s to mid-100s might be enough to trigger a bounce.

    I'm not sure what the recommendation would be at that point unfortunately.

    What's a little odd to me is he's hitting his nadir so late in the cycle. Keep an eye on him though! That was a fairly low number for a full dose, so be sure to keep an eye out for a hypo today.
     
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  7. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't recommend going back down to 1U. Or increasing to 1.5U.

    You want to see if the new bottle of Prozinc will help to bring down those BG levels.
    You also want to see how quickly the bounce clears.

    A more recent curve would be helpful also.

    Do you spread out Logan's meals? Or are you only feeding him after the pre-shot tests?
     
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  8. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    Thx for replying @Deb & Wink .. i've been giving him just tiny snacks thru. out the day..then big meals for amps and pmps.. at +3 his bg was 356 then at +6 297... i was quite puzzled too, why he was so low last nite+8 bg170. if his numbers continue to go down then it was the old vial,, Should I be giving him bigger meals during the 1st 6 hours?.. I was thinking i probably should do another curve too probably this week, since the last one was 12/25. How quick is quick for a bounce to clear? thx again and I hope you are doing well., Sandy
     
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  9. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    It usually takes at least 3-6 cycles to clear a bounce. It can be longer or shorter. Depends on how well your cat's body gets used to those lower numbers. Some cats go from one bounce, right into the next bounce. Some cats get used to the low numbers, and clear the bounces faster and faster as their body adjusts.
    This sounds fine.
    Big meals at AMPS and PMPS are fine, after the test of course. As long as you try to get as close as possible to no food 2 hours before the pre-shot, your pre-shot tests should be accurate.

    I asked about when you feed the food, wondering if some of those higher Pink range BG numbers you had been seeing mid-cycle were because you were feeding Logan just before those mid-cycle tests. We expect the mid-cycle tests to have some food influence. Small snacks mid-cycle are fine. But try not to feed him after about +6. Because the insulin will have been used up by then.
    Great minds think alike. It's time for another curve.
     
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  10. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink thankyou.. when i give him little snacks they are small,, like 1 or 2 tablespoons of food at most,, i wonder if his numbers started to grow higher cuzz i gave him 2 fur shots in a short period of time and then my insulin was getting old like i had opened it up novemb, 9th,, this disease is so unpredictable.. but on a positive note,, logan has gained weight, and seems to be doing well,,.
     
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  11. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    last nite he broke thru a small baracade i had to keep him out of my art studio, and chewed a hole in a fresh bag of dry cat food,, don't know how much he ate, but he was high last nite like 413bg at +5. This AM 1/24 i fed him turk/gib by ff. his appetite is down this morning.,. so i fed him fuzzy cat and he ate some,, weird,, i wonder if it is cuzz he must have ate a bunch of dry food last nite (w/out me knowing it)? he was licking his chops last nite when i went upstairs and discovered what he did>>? 1st time he didn't eat that much this morning, altho he did eat enough for me to give him his shot.
     
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  12. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I know how that goes. Wink chewed through some dry food that I was going to take out to my garage. I had left it in my hallway, and I was only gone for about 2 minutes, while I fetched some more dry food to take out to my garage. After that incident, I never bought any more dry food, except for treats. The treats I kept in a heavy kitchen drawer the cats could not open, or in the fridge.

    Dry food has more calories, so a cat can feel fuller when they eat it. But the dry is really high in carbs, so will raise the BG levels, sometimes for days. It takes more time for dry food to work through the digestive tract.

    Licking his chops last night? That's a good clue that Logan ate some of that dry food, enough to satisfy him for a while. No way to tell how much.

    Some ideas for you to keep the dry food away from Logan:
    • I put a simple hook and eye closure on my closet bi-fold door, and always locked it. That way my cats can't put their paw under the door and open it. Maybe you have a hallway closet you could use.
    • Put the dry food bag in another larger plastic box, so you can get into it easily but your cat can't. Maybe you have a container for your art supplies that you could repurpose.
    • Try some childproof locks on your cabinets and store the food in a cabinet.
    • Put the food in a metal container with a lid.
    • Do you have a spare dresser drawer? Or a file cabinet? Put the food in there.
    • Basement stairs? If you have a basement that is, and you don't keep the litter boxes down there.
    There should be plenty of places that you could think of to store the bag of dry food. Look around your home and think of where you could store the food more securely.

    Yes, the insulin getting old, suspected fur shots, sneaking high carb dry food, are all reasons for the BG numbers to be higher.

    So who gets to eat the dry food? Another pet?

    Logan isn't feeling well today, because he is on a "bender", suffering the after effects of eating that higher carb food and having high BG levels. His tummy might be upset too, if he isn't used to eating dry food.
     
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  13. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink //thxxx for responding.. the hole was a bit larger than a quarter,, and logan licking his chops told me for sure he bit open the bag.. we have 8 cats total and 2 dogs,, animal house here and 6 chickens outside,, i feed the 7 other cats dry with wet food everyday, and logan is kept separate around feeding time.. a production every morning and evening,, after other cats finish eating I pull the food and put it in this closet in the wall,, which is where the new bag of catfood will be stored,,. logan bg at1243AM was 403 last nite,. and this AM 421 for amps then 443 at+3 but that was food induced as i gave him 3 tablespoons of wet about an hour earlier.. then at 210pm+7 his bg was 345,,. he seems better now,, but this AM he was off, didn't want to eat his turk/giblets ff.. so i offered him fussie cat fish flavored and he ate some.. 1st time he didn't have much of an appetite.. was so weird.. usually he want 2+ cans of food for every meal.. i was toying with doing a curve tomarrow Mon.. not sure now// cuzz he ate some dry food yesterday.. do u think i should wait.. i tell yah it sure would be nice to get him regulated.. oh well it is what it is right.? I DIDN'T THINK THAT HE ISN'T FEELING WELL CUZZ OF THE DRY FOOD!!!!!!!!
     
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  14. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I think you should wait a couple of days before you do the curve, to let the dry food get out of Logan's system.

    Sometimes my brain works better than others, at coming up with ideas. Yes, a sudden food change can upset a cat's stomach. So hopefully Logan will feel better when his BG levels come back down AND the dry food clears his system. High BG numbers make people feel awful, so the same is probably true for a cat.

    You have a real menagerie at your place! 8 cats, 2 dogs AND chickens! Fresh eggs!!!! I have a friend that has chickens, and she shares eggs with me all the time. She's one of the 3 poultry inspectors for the state, so I know she keeps a clean coop.
     
  15. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink thx for replying!! ok then no curve tomarrow,, maybe weds.. depending on his numbers.... and yes we have a real menagerie here sometimes rather overwhelming.. our cats are seniors now,, the youngest being 10 and our oldest cat Chester is 20.. he may have cushings desease, vet thinks. but not sure.. he screams a lot when hungry for wet food.. and screams after hes fed... we think he has dementia.. i had bloodwork done on him twice and vet speculates cushings.. but other than that his bloodwork came back fine. Another cat Charlie, screams too.. but not as often.. he is on thyroid meds.. but i love them all... our chickens don't produce that many eggs anymore.. soon they will be pets only verses putting out for us!!
     
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  16. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink @JanetNJ We got snow today, and the traveling wasn't good during the AM.. I decided to run a curve for Logan today altho, my original plan was to do it this Weds.. Could you please look at his curve so far and maybe peak at last nites numbers to tell me your thoughts/? I was thinking of keeping him at 1.25 units of Prozinc tonite.. unless his pmps tells me not to... thanks a lot Sandy
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2021
  17. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    That low of 59 last night would normally be an earned dose reduction for Logan.
    But since he wasn't eating well earlier in the day, that night time low could be an aberration. A one time blip.

    Logan dropped down into some nice low blues during the middle of the cycle this morning, 1/25/21. I certainly would not recommend increasing the dose.
    Steady as he goes is my recommendation.
     
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  18. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink Thankyou Deb. I was reallY Surprized to see that this morning at 1250AM.. so basically the nadir determines dosage reduction or increase as well as the amps and pmps/? and if Logan is say between 150-200 for his pmps (or amps) then normal shot right/? But if he is say between 100-150 then do u just go down .25? I don't anticapate that but just am trying to figure it out without having to bother u guys so much,, but I'm an amature!l and I don't want to screw up if I can help it!! thankyou so much and hope you are doing well! Sandy
     
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  19. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Yes, our Prozinc dosing methods use the nadir to determine dose increases and reductions.
    In combination with the pre-shot tests, that helps you to judge when you should change the dose.
    The dose changes are not a one time change, but should be held for at least 3-6 cycles to see how the new dose is affecting the BG levels.

    Yes. You have enough test data, and test often enough that you could lower that threshold gradually. It's a real judgement call on your part, with what you know about how Logan reacts to a particular dose, and how far down his BG levels go.

    Depends on if you are around to monitor or not. Depends on some of the trends you see on the SS. Depends on where in that range Logan is falling. It makes a big difference if the BG is 150 and you go ahead and give the insulin than if Logan is nearer 100 and you need to make a decision.
    You've shot the full insulin dose before, on a pre-shot of 158.
    You've never shot the full dose lower than that. But you could. So next time Logan is low, nearer the 150 BG or lower at pre-shot, stall.

    Stall. Hold the shot, hold the food, retest in 20 minutes to see if the BG is rising. You can do that for up to 1 hour, and still maintain your regular shot schedule with Prozinc.
     
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  20. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink thankyou thankyou for all of your comments,, I truly appreciate it.. and telling me about the nadir that helps determine dosage adjustments.. etc.. i'm going to print out what you sent me.. this is so very helpful! If you ever want a commission of your pet just let me know and i will give you a discount!! thanks so much!!!
     
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  21. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Sticky PROZINC DOSING METHODS

    I've printed out this sticky, for my own use and made a ton of notes on it. You might want to do the same.

    There are a couple of other "Sticky" or pinned posts at the top of this ISG that are useful too. You might want to at least read through them. I need to have a hardcopy in front of me to help things sink in. I read through these "Sticky" posts again and again.
     
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  22. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    thankyou... i read them at least some of them.. and i agree.. read em again and again.. and print them out!!
     
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  23. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink .. I simply don't get it..today was a rainy/cold day,..I decided to monitor logan.. his numbers suck today.. i've been really careful with his shots.. and very careful with not letting him get the wrong food that my other 7 cats eat (mix of dry w/wet). his amps this AM 511 then at +2 344. +4 304 +6 356 and +8 409.. i just don't get it.. he's not drinking a bunch.. just hungry. he ate 2 cans this AM and could easily have eaten more. But he's at a good weight.. I really don't want him to gain too much more. CRAzY..and disappointing,
     
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  24. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    So you've been running an at home curve on Logan today, testing every 2 hours.

    My best guess is that Logan is dropping lower during the night cycle sometime, and then bouncing up to those black (and red) BG levels.

    Blacks and reds almost always indicate bouncing. Looks to me like Logan starting bouncing yesterday.
    His BG levels did come down nicely during today's AM cycle. It may take a few more cycles for him to clear that bounce.

    Could I send some snow your way? ;) I've got about 3 inches, spread out over my 2 acres. You can have all you want. I won't miss it.:)
     
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  25. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink So tell me, could this be the bounce that we were talking about several days ago where u suggested for me to wait several days before running a curve.. but i decided to do it on mon. cuzz weather was crummy?? So if one screws up/eg fur shot/eg. cat getting into wrong food cuzz owner also known as me.. leaves a catdish out for another cat or two and Logan ofcourse is right on it,,then you have to deal with bounces before cat can hopefully go back to normal//?.. argggh.... and I decided to run a curve today, and his numbers sucked. Sure go ahead and send some snow my way...! they are expecting over 6 feet up in the mtns and hour or so from here.. but where I live we don't get all that much.. where do you live?
     
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  26. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this sure does look like a bounce to me.

    Fur shots, either partial or complete misses can lead to higher BG levels (and bounces).
    Yes, Logan getting into "contraband" food can raise the BG levels.

    You just have to wait them out and be a patient as possible, waiting for them to clear.

    None of us are perfect. We just try the best we can. That's what you seem to be doing, trying your best.

    I'm on the east coast of Massachusetts.
     
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  27. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink Yeah,,, so payback is a -itch for screwing up a few days ago..oh well..like u said.. we try to do the best we can.. and humans make mistakes.never been to Mass. maybe one day.. whats the elevation>> ? here its about 2600 or so. patience is not one of my good pts.. but i guess i will have to learn how to be patient, have a good evening.
     
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  28. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    It was sneaky Logan that got into the bag of dry food and helped himself overnight. It happens, you learned from it, and are keeping the dry food "under lock and key" or at least somewhere that Logan can't get to the dry food. He'll get back into the groove.

    You didn't do anything wrong a couple of days ago. That low BG dip down into the low greens in the PM cycle on 1/24/21 precipitated the bounce. It happens, when a cat's body isn't used to those low BG numbers. Think of it as a built in protective mechanism.

    You needed to feed Logan when he dropped that low, to bring his BG level back to a safer level.

    About 35 feet. Salt marsh across the road. I'm up on a bit of a hill of granite ledge, left behind by the glaciers thousands of years ago. Far enough away from the ocean, a couple of miles. Out of the flood zone. But eventually, climate change and rising sea levels will inundate the road. Not in my lifetime. We get ocean effect snow, with winds coming off the water that brings extra moisture from the ocean inland. Those sea breezes are nice on hot summer days, but not so much when you get extra snow as a consequence during the winter.
     
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  29. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    thx for your imput regarding logan... this disease suck....
    sounds very pretty Deb/where you live.. we live in the foothills of the mountains.. hot in the summer.. and cool/cold in winter.. but we don't get buried in snow.. which works for me.. snow comes then its gone in two days.. if i may ask what do you do there?? I'm an artist here.. creating pet portraits.. bike riding and I ski and ofcourse tend to all of our pets...
     
  30. Logan & Sandy

    Logan & Sandy Member

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    @Deb & Wink actually I did feed him when he dropped that low.. not a whole lot, but i did!!
     

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