? Dose question, dealing with bouncing.

What do you do when they just keep bouncing, then normalizing then bouncing again? Several times I should have raised the dose by the protocol rules, then he will have greens and blues. It has been impossible to stabilize him since his dentals and Pancreatitis flares. I am at a loss.( I work nights. On the spreadsheet were you see no PM numbers I am working, we have auto feeders . Thanks.

 

Hi Bonnie, In response to your question, all I can do is offer you

I so know how frustrating bounces are.... we are at it for almost a year! It has reduced a bit with Lantus, and it has reduced a bit again with feeding him 6% carb food (instead of 2%). What do you feed Zeke?

However unlike my Hercs, Zeke seemed quite stable before.... which is more frustrating and intriguing.... I notice from your SS that he was always stable in a lower dose. I also notice that you do see green often in the current dose. Any chance on a weekend you could do a more detailed curve, with readin every 2 hours? It is possible that he is nadiring a bit later, and perhaps you are not seeing how low he is going? Just a wild thought.....

 

Also, you may want to change your title to "dose question?". Since many might just think there is not a good answer to why they bounce? It would be good ta have the more experienced members give their opinion on whether you need to keep pushing on the dose, or whether you may have overshot.

 

Thanks for your replies, and the support... I feel like I have tested him at all kinds of times and it makes no difference, but I may try to do more of a curve when I have some time off. If I test him too close to eating, (which he is fed small amts of FF every 4-6 hrs) his numbers just reflect that he has just eaten, so not helpful. So yes, he eats low carb FF with chicken FF topper sometimes, nothing else except a mouse or a lizard tail every once in a while! We've been at this for almost 2 years now, so frustrating and sad at times, it is. Thanks again.

 

Hang in there Bonnie and Zeke

Here's your last post for continuity - https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/wild-swings-in-numbers.245582/

Some cats are bouncier than others - with that 65 the other day, I'm not sure there's too much room for an increase - perhaps @tiffmaxee can stop by when she can as I see she's been by before.

FWIW I think you're doing an excellent job given your work demands (and I'm sure other demands of life in general ❤️)

 

Thank you so much, it is hard but he is worth it! This group is great!

 

Any chance of getting some +2 tests during the day cycle. I assume you are sleeping as you work nights. Several mornings he was under 100 at amps and I wonder if he’s going lower. Some cats are really bouncy. I’d like to see a little more before considering an increase. See what others think.

 

Right after he eats and gets his shot, you mean? Right after he eats his numbers go up for at least 3-4 hrs always. Never down. I'm not sure that will tell us anything. I didn't mean I wanted to increase, scary, I think, I thought maybe he was bouncing because his dose is too HIGH. Should I decrease, maybe? Please clarify when I should retest.

 

If you are following TR, you have room to increase. You've held this dose a lot longer than TR would suggest.

Cats don't bounce because their dose is too high. They bounce because of fast drops or seeing numbers lower than they are used to. Greens are few and far between lately, so he's not used to them.

 

Here's a little story I wrote a while back when someone else was asking about bouncing - I hope you find it amusing and informative:

I wish I could draw a picture of that little pancreas...it's got a little tired face today on your kitties @@Butters & Lyla and @@Lisa & Oberon - that little guy is just pooped out...and has it's little tiny feet up on the sofa...just kinda taking a little nap...only problem is it's so tired and worn out, it's having trouble waking up from that nap...

So while that little guy is resting, help him out and gently, slowly and carefully, increase the dose of 'helper juice' aka insulin - that you're giving. The thing with these little pancreas fellows, is the darn thing wakes up from it's nap and gets all energized and says, 'Hey I can help!'...and starts making insulin and making a contribution...and that's when you've got to back off from the help aka insulin you're giving...and let the little fellow help out...but then he'll get tired again...and well 'sigh'...just gotta sit down and maybe even put it's tiny feet up again and take another snooze...how long will he rest for this time? No one really knows...but when you're helping with the insulin you give and get those greens, it's really hard to tell if he's actually allowing a little bit of homegrown insulin go...or if he's holding onto it tightly while he's resting - but the green numbers are healing numbers...so either way, that pancreas is happy when those numbers are down - less demand - so he's not running so fast on his tiny little 'gerbil wheel' trying to crank out the insulin...

And then let's not even get started on what Mr. Liver thinks of all this activity...because he's the guy in charge of STORAGE! He's constantly storing a supply of gylcogen (sugar basically) JUST IN CASE! He's a real life-saver when it comes down to it...because when that blood sugar goes too low (from your contribution and little pancreas fellow working a little too much)...then he comes to the 'rescue' and dumps a nice big load of sugar into that bloodstream...because he doesn't want anything bad to happen to those organs - like the brain and heart and other important organs that need that 'food'...sugar is a form of energy to the body...and that makes everyone happy except for you...and well, the liver gets a little over-enthusiastic sometimes and dumps all it's got reserved and then there's too much sugar in the blood stream and that's not really a very good thing either - all that sugar coursing through the veins isn't very healthy...kinda hard on those kidneys to deal with all that sugar then...

And so it goes...it's a real merry go round in there with all these players...so just test, test, test...and count based on your dosing method - since those are tried and true and will help you with the pace of a healthy progress back towards a regulated orchestra in there...

And for now...I'm pooped just writing about it...

 

Wendy - I have a question please. I do get this about bounces but what is capable of causing the drop other than the insulin? Not quite enough food? What else might be the cause? Thanks

 

This Sticky Note has a description of some of the things that can cause variability in cycles. What is the Insulin Depot?

My cat used to drop just going to the vet, others go up due to stress. Some cats are just bouncier than other. You will see bigger drops in bounce clearing cycles, or if a cat is starting the cycle higher. Which is why I liked lower preshots - meant flatter cycles. It's very much ECID - each cat is different. Food can also play a role. Getting to regulation is find the right balance of food (#carbs and when) and insulin dose. Cats differ on how carb sensitive they are. So take good notes of when and what you'll feed and hopefully you'll work what works for your cat.

 

I

I realize I hold the dose longer than tr would suggest, I’m just afraid for him to drop too low when I’m gone to work . He bounces when he drops too low too fast as you said. But what if I’m not here and he drops even lower because of an increased dose and is in danger . Maybe I can’t do this protocol with my job. ?
He just had 2 greens followed by 113 and 101 this AM, before jumping up. I had given him skinny doses during this time and a little more food too.
This always happens before I’m about to raise the dose so I leave it alone . Do you still think I should raise it after the last good numbers?

 

T

Thank you!