Duke 6/4

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Bone Daddy, Jun 4, 2010.

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  1. Bone Daddy

    Bone Daddy Member

    May 19, 2010
    PM + 2 311

    PM + 5 250

    Spreadsheet updated and annotated

    The AM shot is always before any food. The Pm shot has been after he has eaten some food. We're just trying to keep him eating when he's ready to eat. This was the many small meals approach.

    At 4:00 Duke ate about 1/2 a can of evo beef w/water on his own with gusto.

    At 7:00 preshot, he nibbled a bit.

    At 9:00 PM +2 he ate about a tsp off my finger after I fed him with my finger into his mouth first.

    At 12:00 + 5 I made the decision to syringe feed him. 2.5oz wet 40cc slurry.

    Duke is not putting on weight. I can't have him go off feed.

    I am going to start making sure he gets 3 oz in the AM and 3 oz in the PM to coincide with his shots. I will have to assist to make sure he gets the full 3 oz, but I don't feel we have much choice. This is my choice of last resort.

    My gut feeling is that our time left with Duke is running out. My heart is breaking. I just don't know what to do anymore except love him as best as we can and if that doesn't work, make him as comfortable as we can. Maybe things will look better in the morning, but my hopes are not up.

    Thanks for continuing to watch over us.
  2. Donna & Buddha

    Donna & Buddha Member

    Dec 29, 2009
    I don't also do the right steps in this sugar dance, but it seems to me that:

    1) Duke should be eating, even if what he will eat isn't the best thing for him. If he likes the baby food, then so be it. Were you feeding him Gerber? http://www.gerber.com/AllStages/Product ... 491a530d5#
    From the label
    Nutrition Facts Serv. Size 1 jar
    Servings Per Container 1
    Amount Per Serving
    Calories 80
    Total Fat: 4.5g
    Trans Fat: 0g
    Sodium: 35mg
    Potassium: 110mg
    Total Carbohydrates: 2g
    Dietary Fiber: 0g
    Sugars: 0g
    Protein: 7g
    %Daily Value
    Protein: 45% Vitamin A: 0%
    Vitamin C: 0% Calcium: 0%
    Iron: 4% Zinc: 30%

    Doesn't look so bad to me. I'm not saying I'll have it for dinner, but as an appetite stimulant for a cat, you could do much worse.

    2) Cats can be dehydated even when they are slurping up water. Someone here, was it Aria's bean?, would soak tuna in water in the fridge. Her cat would drink extra tuna flavored water.

    3) If the nadir of Duke's curve isn't dipping into the 100s, then a small (.25u) dose increase may be the way to go. And test, test, test. Brush up on how to treat hypos, have stuff on hand, and keep on eye on Duke.

    4) Have you checked for ketones? When ketones are present, you may need to be a little more aggressive with insulin. Not sure how long it takes for the breath to smell like acetone, but urine strips will let you know if they are present in the urine. Also, there's a meter like your glucometer that will test for blood ketones. Strips are pricey, though.
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Hi Bone Daddy, I'm so sorry Duke is not feeling well :cry: but your the dad and you know your cat...I agree loving and spoiling are sometimes the absolute best thing we do with them (and with each other hmm?) as far as the 3 and 3 ounces, you can't force but i guess you can do all you can do to encourage.
    Remember you are giving him the 5 star treatment. He could'nt get any better if he were human royalty, your loving him, feeding him the best, medicating him, seeing to his every comfort. We should all have it as good as our little fur babies.
    Keep us informed BD.
  4. Kelly & Oscar

    Kelly & Oscar Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2010
    Please remember the progress you have already made with Duke! You guys are already getting some decent curves and his behavior has already started to improve a bit. Duke has been on a roller coaster for a while now, and his body needs time to adjust. You are doing wonderfully with him! Even now, Oscar has good days and bad days still - and I wish we could see a curve with him, but alas, his body is stubborn. Duke's weight may come back on very slowly - Oscar had a gain of a few ounces one week and then hit a plateau. He really needs to gain another pound at least, but I can't for the life of me get him to gain weight either.

    My point in all my ramblings is that sometimes we can get too focused on what is going wrong with our kitties and we miss what is going RIGHT! Keep up the good spirits and the good work. Hopefully Duke will feel better today cat_pet_icon
  5. Bone Daddy

    Bone Daddy Member

    May 19, 2010
    Duke 6/4 AMPS

    AMPS 211 1.5 u 7:00 AM

    Spreadsheet updated.

    Syringe fed Dukie 3 oz of Wellness Kitten Food slurry. Approx 80 cc.
    He is still quite active (we played a little game of hide and seek this morning).

    The last big spike in Duke's BG came after feeding the Gerber's Turkey and Gravy.
    Gun shy to try that again.

    Note to self: trim Duker's nails this afternoon.

    Your kind words are deeply appreciated.
  6. Donna & Buddha

    Donna & Buddha Member

    Dec 29, 2009
    Just something to consider, quantity of food eaten will affect how much insulin is needed too. Part of the spike with the turkey and gravy could be due to how much Duke ate. Not saying feed it to him, just another variable to put into the equation.

    If you were one to make your own baby food, it would just take cooked turkey, water and a blender. No need to add corn starch or other thickeners. That wouldn't be a balanced cat food, but might work as an appetite stimulant/treat.
  7. Bone Daddy

    Bone Daddy Member

    May 19, 2010
    + 9 141

    This place is an amazing cathartic experience. Thank you for support.

    AMPS 215 corrected

    AM + 9 141 like this.

    spreadsheet updated.

    Duke ate a crunchy treat. After his reading. At this point an acceptable bribe.

    Next feeding at 7:00 as per AM feeding.

    After the AM feeding I left a bit on his fur. It was groomed off when I got home. Good sign.

    Fingers remain crossed.

  8. Michelle & Prudence

    Michelle & Prudence Member

    Feb 21, 2010
    Way to go BD! I sure hope Duke is feeling better. Just keep in mind that although +9 is 141 which is awesome, that number can raise pretty fast. If it were me, I'd test every hour or on the half hour until I saw the raise then shoot. Since he's new to this... I'd try to catch it right around 200 then shoot. This is where you kind of wish you knew where his nadir was.... so I am iffy about staying with 1.5U or going to 1.25. Hopefully, someone will chime in soon! Just remember that if you can catch Duke on a raise (staying within your limits w/out going TID) this will really help him. So, don't let that +9 141 make you think about skipping his PM dose. If you do... he will most likely be in those high numbers again. Think of pushing a child on a swing. How hard you push matters a bit, but WHEN you push is the most important thing. If you keep pushing at the right time, you don't need to push very hard.

    You're doing GREAT! But know whatever you decide... we're all here for you. :YMHUG:
  9. Joanna & Bix (GA)

    Joanna & Bix (GA) Well-Known Member

    Dec 28, 2009
    Those are some REALLY improved #s today, that is awesome! Still some room for improvement, but compared to other #s he's had, that's a great PS and a pretty good # for mid-cycle. Lovin' it!!! :mrgreen:

    Are you thinking the improvement is due to the food changes? Definitely whatever is going on today that is different is the way to keep things (unless it is due to him eating less, then it's no good!!!). If the #s continue like this and he doesn't zoom/spike for tonight's PS, I would be tempted to hold at this dose a little longer and see if the #s are still coming down more, or if this is the best he will get on this dose.

    I hope he is feeling well and starts putting a little weight on for you soon! Hopefully your fears about him are just fears, and he will prove you wrong. :) Regardless though, spending time with him and enjoying life are the top priorities, sick or not, so you are smart to remember to focus on that! Sometimes I know I get so caught up in the testing and worrying & all that I miss the bigger picture, and forget to actually enjoy my kitties' company and entertaining antics.
  10. Bone Daddy

    Bone Daddy Member

    May 19, 2010
    PMPS 183

    PMPS 183 7:00 1.5 u 3 oz syringe

    spreadsheet updated

    Thanks J and B. Because nothing really seems to make sense yet, I'm hoping the good meal has something to do with it as well as delivering all the food at one sitting. Tonight was a little messier than this morning, Duke was feeling his oats :) A good sign is that he is grooming himself

    The plan is to syringe feed him again in the morning and she then see how things go for the evening meal. Weekends are good because he gets lots of time with H. She's his (and my) rock.

    Gotta go clip those nails right now..............................
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Are you able to do some evening checks. that was a lowish # for that dose. just don't want him to fall too low and then bounce without you knowing about it...thus just thinking he's back in the pinks. the way you might conclude it's a bounce is if he gets 50 or lower.
    you have the high carb to steer his #'s if he goes low right? i'll be on board checking on you this evening ok.
  12. Bone Daddy

    Bone Daddy Member

    May 19, 2010
    + 2 106

    PM + 2 106

    spreadsheet updated.

    I can stay up with him and monitor him tonight. We can handle a low.
    He also has a good meal in his belly.
    I am interested as to where this is will take us.

    H just informed me that she ordered a bunch of low car snacks from a list I picked up somewhere on this board. She's quite excited since one of the joys of her life is treating her cats. Luckily it's one of their joys also.

    As always, thanks for looking out for us.

    Hmmmm I thought I had a profile linked to my signature. (BTW, thanks Mr. Tinkles we used your profile as our template)
    Have to see what went wrong.
  13. Kelly & Oscar

    Kelly & Oscar Well-Known Member

    Feb 17, 2010
    Wow, what great numbers tonight! dancing_cat

    I might check every hour just to be sure he doesn't go too low. Optimally he will have a nice gentle drop tonight and we won't have to worry about any rebound tomorrow! Sending good vibe numbers your way! flip_cat
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    if by any chance you do drop too far the hard kibble is not fast acting enough to correct it..the chicken with gravy will be better. you know, if you hit a 40 or something like that.
  15. Laurie and Mr Tinkles

    Laurie and Mr Tinkles Well-Known Member

    May 9, 2010
    Re: + 2 106

    No problem, glad you found it useful. I hope both Duke and Tinkles have good #s overnight, and no bounces! I'll be up a few times too.
  16. Nancy and Cody

    Nancy and Cody Well-Known Member

    Jan 1, 2010
    hey BD,
    Sorry I haven't been around in awhile- dealing with sick boys around here.
    some quick thoughts from the skimming

    1) guar gum is possibly the best of the thickeners, because a very tiny amount thickens a large amount of food.
    2) evo is very high in fat, some fat is crucial for their metabolism, but ...
    3) it seems like all the foods have something questionable in them- potatoes, rice, corn starch, carrots etc. As much "shi.." as it gets, Purina DM has the fewest questionable ingredients in it that I've read. Its been said that it may be high in fat, but when I heat it in the MW next to any other food, it always needs longer to get warm (?? less fat content?)
    4) I buy a lot of chicken breast when they go on sale, gently boil them , throw a large batch in the blender with the water, and refreeze in mini muffin tins. I mix them in to boost the lean high quality protein to commercial canned food (which provides the vitamins and minerals)
    5) Have you gotten the keto styx? Ketones are more critical to his health than even his blood glucose getting high. You just have to catch him peeing and wet the strip. available in any pharmacy, about $13 /50 strips
    6) sorry - no attention span to check the ss
    7) glad you are posting daily- the "Name /Date/ AMPS" format like they do in Lantus land.
  17. Joanna & Bix (GA)

    Joanna & Bix (GA) Well-Known Member

    Dec 28, 2009
    wow, he is really getting better #s fast, this is awesome!!!

    As well as monitoring for any lows tonight (big drop by +2!!! yikes!), I'd consider lowering the dose from here on too. He's getting significantly better PSs, so either there is something else going on leading to a lower insulin need (mayber higher carb food wearing off?), or this dose worked well to bring his #s down and is now probably too much. Toss my previous dosing suggestions out the window. :) New data = new game plan.

    Nice #s though, it's really nice to see that progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hopefully you will get a nice trough tonight - sometimes they will ride in the 50s/60s for a few hours, especially if they are eating their regular LC to balance out any extra insulin. With Bix I have found that if needed, a couple strategic bites of HC can sometimes keep the #s in a good zone when they are getting too low for comfort pre-nadir time. I'd give more than a couple bites on a really low #, but if you see something like 50 and you aren't close to nadir time, you can often get a rhythm going of a couple bites of HC, test in 1/2 hour, if you are still at 50 give a couple bites more, etc. Once I let Bix eat as much HC as he wanted and it was all 300s after that :(.

    Hope it goes smoothly! I will check back later tonight to cheer on the pretty blue-green #s. :) If you run into a crisis and no one is around here in PZI Ville, just post in other forums to get someones attention.
  18. Bone Daddy

    Bone Daddy Member

    May 19, 2010
  19. Bone Daddy

    Bone Daddy Member

    May 19, 2010
    I've been reading up on inappetance and stumbled upon this:

    "Nausea is a symptom of many other conditions, and will often lead to lack of appetite. (Nausea in cats may be indicated by frequent lip-licking or smacking)."

    This is exactly what Duke is doing. It seems to make sense that if Duke's systems are all out of whack that he might be nauseous. Although I never thought of cats as being nauseous.

    Does anyone have experience with this?
  20. Joanna & Bix (GA)

    Joanna & Bix (GA) Well-Known Member

    Dec 28, 2009
    Well looks like no low scare tonight, that is good, and some nice blues, yippee!!!

    Bix has IBD, so he has had nausea bouts. Pancreatitis I think might also cause it (?). Bix takes Budesonide which controls the IBD but doesn't seem to ruin his BGs (previously on Pred... hello diabetes! :evil: ). Pepcid AC can help sometimes - 1/4 of the 10mg no-added-flavor tablets (if I remember right) every 12 hours. (I don't recommend it w/o consulting your vet 1st, just mentioning it for reference!)

    You might want to give your vet a call and report what you are seeing, especially given his low eating. Could be something that can be addressed & might help him a lot to get eating more. I'm leery of Reglan, but there may be other meds they can give, and of course diagnosing the cause if possible. The Budesonide has been a life-saver for Bix, but it would only help I think if Duke had IBD. Mine have barfed a lot when they have that, hard to miss, so it seems like maybe he has something else going on...? Hard to say.

    There are definitely others around with nausea experience, hopefully they will chime in.

    Anyhow, enjoy the good #s tonight, I hope he is feeling & acting well! :D
  21. Bone Daddy

    Bone Daddy Member

    May 19, 2010
    PM + 8= 182

    PM + 8 = 182

    spreadsheet updated.

    Duke's being a trooper.

    Since the plus + 4 number looked so good and Dukie was resting on the couch and responsive, I let us both catch a little shut eye. I've been watching for signs of vomiting. So far nothing. Not even small amounts of liquid. Which is actually nice having 3 cats and all.

    I do have baby food still on hand. Thank you for the tip to use it in case numbers dip to low. Also have honey on hand just in case.

    Sorry, if there are still some unanswered questions out there. I want to apologize if it seems like I'm ignoring you. There is still just so much to analyze and think about. Please know that everything posted is carefully read and appreciated.

    Good rest of the night everyone.
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