George’s Mom
Member Since 2022
This post is related to the thread about FD&CKD options (this thread) I put in its own thread because that one was getting so long and this post specifically will be very long due to its nature.
So! Below is the email thread between me and Laurie D at Food Fur Life. She was super helpful and seems very knowledgeable, but my disclaimer here is that I don’t know her role in the company or credibility. So please read below with a grain of salt. I though worthy of a share though:
Hi Rachel,
ANY meat works, though meat of carnivores is not recommended (like alligator). Nutrition works in ranges, it doesn't require specific, spot-on, low tolerance differences. But in OUR discussion, breast is low fat, so it would need to be balanced with a higher fat option like pork butt or shoulder so the diet overall balances out to the mid-range of lean (4% - 7% fat as-fed). For your diabetic kitty, it really is best to keep meals of *about* the same fat content, so perhaps mix breast and pork butt half and half?
And the differences in phosphorus with ANY meat that is 10% or lower fat as-fed will result in substantially similar nutrient profiles. As I said, the phosphorus will only change minutely at the margin, which is why I personally don't worry about the meat or feeding a low fat meat to my cats, even my CKD cats. The phos will range from 0.6% - maybe 0.9%, generally falling at 0.7% or 0.8% phos on a dry matter basis - and despite all the scary sounding CKD group information, this will have very little impact on blood phos. If a binder is needed, it will happen no matter what phos level is fed, and we know from current published research, we really do want it higher than 0.5%. They just haven't done the studies to tell us what is ideal - but based on a large body of anecdotal evidence over the 7 years we've been shipping EZComplete, it will be somewhere around 0.7%. So give or take 0.1% is going to make little difference.
I understand how scary it is being new to any disease, especially one affected by diet. I do NOT mean to make light of the situation, or how scared we are as pet parents when new to it. It's just I know the research, and I've been through this with so many cats now, and there is just no reason to over-think this. We can't help it, but you are NOT going to harm your baby. Stick to fat under 10% fat as-fed unless you feed a really lean meat like breast of any kind, then offset it with a ground meat that is 15% fat as fed OR a fatty cut like the pork shoulder/pork butt. Feed them what you want to buy and what they like.
The chicken breast nutrition looks almost exactly like the turkey. That's why we picked one and then provided sample diets. The individual variation between them is little and not meaningful as WE view the needs of cats AND CKD cats - and this is also informed by our experience with our own.
FYI, there is boneless, skinless chicken thigh, but it is cheaper to buy bone-in and remove the bone AND the skin.
FYI, if you feel more comfortable using diet to target a low phosphorus content of 0.5% to 0.6%, you can use Alnutrin (www.knowwhatyoufeed.com). With this, you have to add your own liver, but because you can use the bare minimum, it does make phos that tad bit lower that you seem to want. There's nothing wrong with that, just in my experience, it isn't necessary. But it's always good to have more than one food in rotation anyway - especially in the times of covid-related supply chain problems, you never know when one of us might be out of inventory! KNOCK WOOD!
Best Regards,
Laurie
Laurie D
Food Fur Life, LLC
www.foodfurlife.com
------ Original Message ------
From: "Rachel
To: "Food Fur Life Customer Service" <
Sent: 8/11/2022 5:28:27 PM
Subject: Re: New Form Entry: Contact Form
What about chicken breast? And I assume the chicken thigh, you remove the bone, right?
The label on the EX Complete shows nutritional values with certain meats. Chicken isn’t one of them. Do you know why? Is it not encouraged to use for some reason? If it’s okay to use, is there a place to see what chicken (let’s say breast) + EZ Complete nutrition would be?
Thanks so much for your help! I’m not sure what your role with the company is, but you seem extremely knowledgeable! So I am very grateful for your wisdom!
Rachel
On Aug 11, 2022, at 7:02 AM, Food Fur Life Customer Service wrote:
Hi Rachel,
It's really very simple, and the research is starting to confirm what many people and many vets suspected: treat our cats like obligate carnivores and don't overthink it:
Homemade food that uses eggshell or calcium carbonate or calcium lactate as the sources of calcium with NORMAL calcium-to-phosphorus ratios is appropriate for diabetes and CKD.
Food that uses relatively lean meats (about 4% - 7% fat as-fed: skinless chicken thigh, 1/4" fat on boneless pork chops; stew meat beet; ground anything with 5% or 7% fat) are appropriate for both.
Low protein, low phos is not turning out well as per current science and is no longer a consensus within the veterinary community. It is the newer science that causes the seeming contradictions.
Laurie
Food Fur Life, LLC
On August 11, 2022 12:11:50 AM Rachel wrote:
Thank you Laurie D. Very helpful information. Nutrition in general is so complex, confusing, and often contradictive. Finding the right balance for our Diabetic/CKD kitty seems impossible to me. It’s a bit overwhelming. I appreciate you bringing some clarity to the situation. Wish there was an easy site to identify meat protein phosphorus levels. I’m sure there is, so I guess I wish I could find it! Lol
Thanks for your help!
Rachel
On Aug 10, 2022, at 1:58 PM, Food Fur Life Customer Service wrote:
Hi Rachel,
Those are the values for the food when made, so all of them include the meats listed. The meats we used are common meats fed.
As to the target phosphorus, current research indicates there is a problem with the super low phosphorus "veterinary diet" foods. AAFCO minimum is 0.5% and the "low" phosphorus foods are causing hypercalcemia, which may be contributing to the calcification of tissues / organs in our CKD cats.
In the research that separated the impact of phosphorus from the impact of protein in cats (when I do research, I go to the original, published research), the low phosphorus food was 0.97% on a dry matter basis: 1%. I've had five CKD cats over the years, and all have been stable on food made with EZC. Even with the low phos foods, many cats need a binder. If / when my cats do, I use vitamin B3 (niacinamide). Their liver values need to be tracked, but at the typical 50 - 75mg 1x or 2x per day to keep blood phos levels in the low-4s, to date, we're not aware of that having been a problem in cats. But my cats have all been stable from 2 to 4 years and all passed from something else, not kidney failure.
Best to use meats with fat content of at most 7% or 8% (or a combination that average out to that) - and that is AS FED (so you can use the nutritional labels if they have it to calculate fat. Bear in mind, the % on the label is percent of human RDA. To find the fat content, you need to take the grams of fat (total) and divided it into the serving (total grams). In the end, cats need more protein as they age, not less (also newer information than is discussed in most articles, even though the research was published by Univ of IL professors, peer reviewed AND dates back to 2013). Change takes time with new info....
Best wishes while you navigate how you want to manage this! There's a lot of conflicting info out there. In the end, my cats like the lean meats, and when they're diagnosed with a terminal illness, enjoying their meals and days - their quality of life - is far more important to me. Not everyone takes that approach. That is a personal decision we all have to manage for ourselves!
Best Regards,
Laurie
Laurie D
Food Fur Life, LLC
www.foodfurlife.com
Original Question:
So! Below is the email thread between me and Laurie D at Food Fur Life. She was super helpful and seems very knowledgeable, but my disclaimer here is that I don’t know her role in the company or credibility. So please read below with a grain of salt. I though worthy of a share though:
Hi Rachel,
ANY meat works, though meat of carnivores is not recommended (like alligator). Nutrition works in ranges, it doesn't require specific, spot-on, low tolerance differences. But in OUR discussion, breast is low fat, so it would need to be balanced with a higher fat option like pork butt or shoulder so the diet overall balances out to the mid-range of lean (4% - 7% fat as-fed). For your diabetic kitty, it really is best to keep meals of *about* the same fat content, so perhaps mix breast and pork butt half and half?
And the differences in phosphorus with ANY meat that is 10% or lower fat as-fed will result in substantially similar nutrient profiles. As I said, the phosphorus will only change minutely at the margin, which is why I personally don't worry about the meat or feeding a low fat meat to my cats, even my CKD cats. The phos will range from 0.6% - maybe 0.9%, generally falling at 0.7% or 0.8% phos on a dry matter basis - and despite all the scary sounding CKD group information, this will have very little impact on blood phos. If a binder is needed, it will happen no matter what phos level is fed, and we know from current published research, we really do want it higher than 0.5%. They just haven't done the studies to tell us what is ideal - but based on a large body of anecdotal evidence over the 7 years we've been shipping EZComplete, it will be somewhere around 0.7%. So give or take 0.1% is going to make little difference.
I understand how scary it is being new to any disease, especially one affected by diet. I do NOT mean to make light of the situation, or how scared we are as pet parents when new to it. It's just I know the research, and I've been through this with so many cats now, and there is just no reason to over-think this. We can't help it, but you are NOT going to harm your baby. Stick to fat under 10% fat as-fed unless you feed a really lean meat like breast of any kind, then offset it with a ground meat that is 15% fat as fed OR a fatty cut like the pork shoulder/pork butt. Feed them what you want to buy and what they like.
The chicken breast nutrition looks almost exactly like the turkey. That's why we picked one and then provided sample diets. The individual variation between them is little and not meaningful as WE view the needs of cats AND CKD cats - and this is also informed by our experience with our own.
FYI, there is boneless, skinless chicken thigh, but it is cheaper to buy bone-in and remove the bone AND the skin.
FYI, if you feel more comfortable using diet to target a low phosphorus content of 0.5% to 0.6%, you can use Alnutrin (www.knowwhatyoufeed.com). With this, you have to add your own liver, but because you can use the bare minimum, it does make phos that tad bit lower that you seem to want. There's nothing wrong with that, just in my experience, it isn't necessary. But it's always good to have more than one food in rotation anyway - especially in the times of covid-related supply chain problems, you never know when one of us might be out of inventory! KNOCK WOOD!
Best Regards,
Laurie
Laurie D
Food Fur Life, LLC
www.foodfurlife.com
------ Original Message ------
From: "Rachel
To: "Food Fur Life Customer Service" <
Sent: 8/11/2022 5:28:27 PM
Subject: Re: New Form Entry: Contact Form
What about chicken breast? And I assume the chicken thigh, you remove the bone, right?
The label on the EX Complete shows nutritional values with certain meats. Chicken isn’t one of them. Do you know why? Is it not encouraged to use for some reason? If it’s okay to use, is there a place to see what chicken (let’s say breast) + EZ Complete nutrition would be?
Thanks so much for your help! I’m not sure what your role with the company is, but you seem extremely knowledgeable! So I am very grateful for your wisdom!
Rachel
On Aug 11, 2022, at 7:02 AM, Food Fur Life Customer Service wrote:
Hi Rachel,
It's really very simple, and the research is starting to confirm what many people and many vets suspected: treat our cats like obligate carnivores and don't overthink it:
Homemade food that uses eggshell or calcium carbonate or calcium lactate as the sources of calcium with NORMAL calcium-to-phosphorus ratios is appropriate for diabetes and CKD.
Food that uses relatively lean meats (about 4% - 7% fat as-fed: skinless chicken thigh, 1/4" fat on boneless pork chops; stew meat beet; ground anything with 5% or 7% fat) are appropriate for both.
Low protein, low phos is not turning out well as per current science and is no longer a consensus within the veterinary community. It is the newer science that causes the seeming contradictions.
Laurie
Food Fur Life, LLC
On August 11, 2022 12:11:50 AM Rachel wrote:
Thank you Laurie D. Very helpful information. Nutrition in general is so complex, confusing, and often contradictive. Finding the right balance for our Diabetic/CKD kitty seems impossible to me. It’s a bit overwhelming. I appreciate you bringing some clarity to the situation. Wish there was an easy site to identify meat protein phosphorus levels. I’m sure there is, so I guess I wish I could find it! Lol
Thanks for your help!
Rachel
On Aug 10, 2022, at 1:58 PM, Food Fur Life Customer Service wrote:
Hi Rachel,
Those are the values for the food when made, so all of them include the meats listed. The meats we used are common meats fed.
As to the target phosphorus, current research indicates there is a problem with the super low phosphorus "veterinary diet" foods. AAFCO minimum is 0.5% and the "low" phosphorus foods are causing hypercalcemia, which may be contributing to the calcification of tissues / organs in our CKD cats.
In the research that separated the impact of phosphorus from the impact of protein in cats (when I do research, I go to the original, published research), the low phosphorus food was 0.97% on a dry matter basis: 1%. I've had five CKD cats over the years, and all have been stable on food made with EZC. Even with the low phos foods, many cats need a binder. If / when my cats do, I use vitamin B3 (niacinamide). Their liver values need to be tracked, but at the typical 50 - 75mg 1x or 2x per day to keep blood phos levels in the low-4s, to date, we're not aware of that having been a problem in cats. But my cats have all been stable from 2 to 4 years and all passed from something else, not kidney failure.
Best to use meats with fat content of at most 7% or 8% (or a combination that average out to that) - and that is AS FED (so you can use the nutritional labels if they have it to calculate fat. Bear in mind, the % on the label is percent of human RDA. To find the fat content, you need to take the grams of fat (total) and divided it into the serving (total grams). In the end, cats need more protein as they age, not less (also newer information than is discussed in most articles, even though the research was published by Univ of IL professors, peer reviewed AND dates back to 2013). Change takes time with new info....
Best wishes while you navigate how you want to manage this! There's a lot of conflicting info out there. In the end, my cats like the lean meats, and when they're diagnosed with a terminal illness, enjoying their meals and days - their quality of life - is far more important to me. Not everyone takes that approach. That is a personal decision we all have to manage for ourselves!
Best Regards,
Laurie
Laurie D
Food Fur Life, LLC
www.foodfurlife.com
Original Question:
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I think the only reason there both eating so well right now is because they are both on mirataz & ondansetron 
Panzer had a chronic pancreatitis episode & now he's taking doxycycline for a UTI & I don't know what is wrong with Spook he just won't eat without both. I'm hoping to wean them off of both a few days after Panzer is done with his medicine. He's got 4 more days on it, then I have to wait 10 days to take a clean catch into the vet & see if he's cleared of it.