Fork (a good fork) in the road, switch insulins or stay???

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Rusty/Jen & Ernie

Member Since 2015
If you look at Ernie's SS, you will see we have plummeted down the ladder, primarily since we fully transitioned to no dry food as of last Friday evening. In that transition, we had to skip a few doses, which I know isn't ideal for the balancing act. Skipped doses meant that reductions were earned. But now we are at 0.25 of Vetsulin & at the 10 hour mark this morning, he was at 102. I will test again & see when we start climbing, then feed him.

We have a vet appt this afternoon & I also plan to compare her readings with our Relion Prime. I had thought about making the switch to BCP since it is gentler & doesn't punch as hard. I know that BCP is closer in structure to a cat's own insulin, I also know that BCP has a little better odds of OTJ. But, I also realize that Vetsulin has worked pretty well along with diet change & I don't know if I am asking for trouble by rocking the boat during a semi controlled period.

Does anyone have any thoughts?
 
Hi Rusty and Jennifer,

I'm very pleased to see how well the food change has worked for Ernie. :cat:

I was in a similar situation with Saoirse this time last year. She was in numbers too low to give Caninsulin (aka Vetsulin) safely and I was skipping shots left, right and centre. Our vet asked me to see how she did off insulin altogether but she could not hold the low numbers and started climbing (and the lack of support for her pancreas triggered inappetence and a nasty pancreatitis flare, but that's by the by).

I asked our vet to prescribe Lantus because it is gentler and longer-acting. (None of those roller coaster curves typical of Caninsulin/Vetsulin.) I was able to maintain her on insulin longer on the Lantus and it gave her more time to recover better beta cell function.

Word of warning: Changing insulins is very much like starting from scratch in terms of data. If you do switch, I would suggest that you temporarily set a higher 'no-shoot' cut-off BG until you gather a decent amount of data on how Ernie responds to any new insulin you introduce into his treatment regimen. Once you gather the data, you will then be able to determine which dose(s) are safe to give him at lower numbers.

My two penn'orth. Other members may have different suggestions.


Mogs
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. It looks like you dosed at 166 today. That is gutsy. Be sure to monitor for a possible early drop.

You can give drops of insulin. So, pull up your .25 and let it out, drop by drop, counting how many drops are in the syringe. The next time you want to give 2 drops, for example, pull up .25 and let out drops, save 2.

You could chase the number, rather than skipping but it may take time you don't have. So, like with your 102, you'd do the stall - not feeding and retesting to see if you get the jump up. Then, if not, feed and test again in 2 hours, after the food has worn off. If he is 200 or 180 or whatever your target number is, then give insulin, maybe a drop or two. ( The next dose would then be when she is in your high range again, so probably more than 12 hours later. This method involves a lot of testing and dosing off schedule which is impossible for most people. The good news is that the kitty doesn't usually require it for long. We use this method with ProZinc and BCP PZI as it is dosed and acts like Vetsulin. Usually the difference is that Vetsulin has a harsher onset and doesn't last as long, but that has not been your experience with it.

SKipping is not a good option as you usually end up careening from high to low. It will be interesting to see what he does with your dose today. One caution - always be sure the number is rising, not still falling, before giving the shot. With his long cycles, that will be important.

I am assuming you are considering finances as BCP is less than either of the depot insulins? The BCP will act similar to Vetsulin and be dosed the same - and you would probably be giving drops with it too.
 
. It looks like you dosed at 166 today. That is gutsy. Be sure to monitor for a possible early drop.

You can give drops of insulin. So, pull up your .25 and let it out, drop by drop, counting how many drops are in the syringe. The next time you want to give 2 drops, for example, pull up .25 and let out drops, save 2.

You could chase the number, rather than skipping but it may take time you don't have. So, like with your 102, you'd do the stall - not feeding and retesting to see if you get the jump up. Then, if not, feed and test again in 2 hours, after the food has worn off. If he is 200 or 180 or whatever your target number is, then give insulin, maybe a drop or two. ( The next dose would then be when she is in your high range again, so probably more than 12 hours later. This method involves a lot of testing and dosing off schedule which is impossible for most people. The good news is that the kitty doesn't usually require it for long. We use this method with ProZinc and BCP PZI as it is dosed and acts like Vetsulin. Usually the difference is that Vetsulin has a harsher onset and doesn't last as long, but that has not been your experience with it.

SKipping is not a good option as you usually end up careening from high to low. It will be interesting to see what he does with your dose today. One caution - always be sure the number is rising, not still falling, before giving the shot. With his long cycles, that will be important.

I am assuming you are considering finances as BCP is less than either of the depot insulins? The BCP will act similar to Vetsulin and be dosed the same - and you would probably be giving drops with it too.


Sorry my chart was a little confusing for yesterday (I cleaned it up a little bit a second ago) with stalling for his PM dose. He was 166 when I checked, we stalled for 1.5 hours & he was up to 235, that is when I dosed him with 0.25. It was confusing because the late dose given at 8:30 PM. So his +10 was actually at 6:00 am this morning.

I certainly wouldn't shoot a 166 at this point without data to support it.
 
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Really finances don't factor in that much. (I mean it does, but I would eat Ramen if it meant a healthy son!)

I thought the BCP PZI was the Bovine based insulin that was closer in structure to feline insulin. I guess I didn't realize that it wasn't a depot insulin. Is ProZinc a depot?

At this point, I was trying to find something more stable & less harsh. This way he isn't getting punched like Vetsulin does & it won't peak & valley as bad.


Hold on a few & I will update you on the vet's reaction to my home testing, having to skip doses, & asking about different insulin options! We will be vet shopping next week, appt is already set!
 
PZI and ProZinc work better than Vetsulin and differently from depot insulins Lantus and Levemir. With PZI and Prozinc, plus data collection of pre-shots and nadirs, you can "shoot what you see", that is, develop a sliding scale and adjust the dose based on how your cat is doing. Cost wise, the upfront costs of PZI and ProZinc may seem less than Lantus and Levemir, though not necessarily on a cost per unit basis.
 
Today was eye opening to say the least. Too much to even cover, so I will only touch on the "highlights" & ultimately, it made me realize that it is time to vet shop, just like many have had to do.

*I was made to feel like I was doing something wrong by home testing. She said point blank "those meters are not accurate at all." And that they don't make a home meter for pets.
I responded by informing her that the Alpha track glucometer was specifically calibrated for pet use. I also told her that I know home glucometers have an acceptable range, so they are not dead on. However, the numbers, whether dead on or not, are still valuable for looking at trends, etc. And that I brought my meter to test against their number, which will tell me how off our meter is.
They tested with blood drawn from the inside of the rear leg & got a 196. I tested his ear prick (because they didn't want to test my meter for me, with the same blood drawn from his leg & I got a 140. Keep in mind that at 8:30 pm the night before he only got 0.25, got no insulin in the morning today. And had free fed all day, plus of course the stress of the car ride & vet clinic.

*I was told that diet will not make that big of a difference. And that dry food is not a bad option either. As long as he was consistently eating, that was the main goal.
I explained that carbs are essentially glucose to a diabetic, which she agreed with. So I asked her how my changing his diet to 100% wet food, low in carbs is a bad thing, since I am reducing his carb intake, which makes it easier for the insulin to work. Or more importantly, reducing the workload on his pancreas. She basically agreed to disagree, even stating that we should stick to one flavor, unless he doesn't want to eat it. Even if both the chicken & turkey are 9 grams of carbs.


*She made me feel guilty for skipping doses, because that is going to throw off the fructosamine test schedule, where they wanted him on insulin for 2 solid weeks, so they could run the test.
I explained that I realize skipped dosing is not great by any means, which is why we have reduced the dose & also why we made a follow up appointment, as soon as I identified the need for a reduction. I explained that we have gotten some #'s in the 100's & even a 76, if I would have pushed 1 full unit yesterday morning when he hit that 76 & then went to work, we may not be here talking about what we should do. I might have been walking in the door for cremation services & second guessing what we should have done. I point blank told her, I am not here to work against you, I am not here to find ways to skirt around coming to the vet, & I am not trying to find a way to save money. I even pointed out, that we usually use our vet, who's prices are lower than the clinic we are working with Ernie on. The only reason we took him to this clinic, was that the Monday after I realized something was wrong, our vet was booked solid, so I started calling for an alternative. And I could have switched back to them already, but I trusted their experience & the fact that they looked at him as "just another diabetic cat" which put me at ease. I have an appt next week to go back to our normal vet. But it is a small town vet with a couple of older Dr's & a couple of younger Dr's, so I want to make sure they are knowledgeable on current diabetic standards & make sure they are willing to work together.

*She said that Vetsulin isn't known to be harsh & has been their "go to" since it came back onto the market. And it works very well most of the time unless the patient seems to reject it.
I asked her about PZI being a Bovine insulin & being closer to the natural make up of feline insulin. As where Vetsulin is Porcine based & has multiple amino acids which are different than the feline makeup. She disputed that fact & said that Vetsulin is meant for both dogs & cats will likely work just fine. At this point, she was getting kind of snotty, so I got a little smart & asked her why is it marketed under the name Caninsulin in the UK, if it wasn't originally intended for canine use. Then in the US, they decided to go with a species friendly name of Vetsulin. Besides irregardless of the name, if Bovine is better at mimicking feline insulin & has published studies with better remission odds than Vetsulin, wouldn't you want to explore it a little deeper, especially if the client is saying that he realizes what it costs, etc. I didn't get a solid answer from her!


So, I am off my soapbox now. Yes my meter is off 50 points from their testing, however the number isn't as important as the trends in the numbers. Which, unless I am looking at something wrong, the numbers & multiple skipped doses were screaming for a reduction.......or else! Her plan at this point was to take him off insulin period for a week or 2 & then run a fructosamine test to see what he has been doing. And told me that she didn't think the home testing was important for now, because the fructosamine test would paint us a picture. And then decide where we go from here. I am not sure I feel comfortable stopping insulin period, because I feel like he still needs some support, even if it is drips or very low doses. She told me that pancreases don't really "restart" given time to catch up & lowering the carb load.

Frustrated & feeling confused. However, I refuse to feel bad or guilty, because I know I have been doing what I thought was best for my son based on the info I was gathering. Ughhhhhhh!
 
Thanks for the heads up BJM, so really the readings I was getting are within normal values for the difference between the vet & the human glucometer. Would there be any difference between the blood draw from the rear leg & my ear prick?
 
She made me feel guilty for skipping doses, because that is going to throw off the fructosamine test schedule, where they wanted him on insulin for 2 solid weeks, so they could run the test.

Priceless. :rolleyes::mad:

So your vet can't use her cookie cutter protocol. Well, yah boo sucks to that! There are too many things about your vet's lack of knowledge and her tunnel-visioned approach to critique on a line item basis. That said, for her to put a fructosamine test ahead of Ernie's safety is completely and utterly unacceptable.

You're quite right to feel so angry and frustrated. You're streets ahead of her in terms of managing Ernie's insulin treatment safely and effectively. You're taking a progressive and proactive approach to finding the best way to manage Ernie's diabetic needs, and you're doing a great job for your little furry son. Do not doubt that for one instant, ya hear!! :)

Glad you're going vetty bean shopping. Smart move.


Mogs
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Priceless. :rolleyes::mad:

So your vet can't use her cookie cutter protocol. Well yah boo sucks to that! There are too many things about your vet's lack of knowledge and her tunnel-visioned approach to critique on a line item basis. That said, for her to put a fructosamine test ahead of Ernie's safety is completely and utterly unacceptable.

You're quite right to feel so angry and frustrated. You're streets ahead of her in terms of managing Ernie's insulin treatment safely and effectively. You're taking a progressive and proactive approach to finding the best way to manage Ernie's diabetic needs, and you're doing a great job for your little furry son. Do not doubt that for one instant, ya hear!! :)

Glad you're going vetty bean shopping. Smart move.


Mogs
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Everything Mogs said: :rolleyes::mad:DITTO, DITTO, DITTO!!!

And I am soooo very proud of you:bighug: for challenging that (idiotic/poorly educated/egotistical) vet!:cool:
I would think that fructosamine tests/in-clinic BG testing post-dx is a last resort reserved for those cases where pet owners refuse to do home blood-glucose testing. Otherwise, any vet who would want you to keep doing this and discourage you from testing on your own is just milking the cash-cow! :mad:

You are so right to be getting another veterinarian, pronto. GOOD FOR YOU!!! You deserve many, many hugs for taking a stand!:bighug::bighug::bighug:-Robin
 
Thank you Mogs & Robin. I seriously walked out of there feeling like crap & then I was like, hell with that. I know I am doing what I needed to do!

And I seldom loose my cool, I am a firefighter/paramedic, so being laid back kind of runs through my veins. But she had me fired up. I settled down & basically quit arguing, when I noticed Ernie was getting restless, probably because we were raising our voices. (Plus I knew that I was getting nowhere!)

You should have seen the look on her face when I said "So, we can't agree that carbs & sugars are bad for diabetics? So a human diabetic should eat all of the candy bars & pasta that they want & expect their glucose to stay regulated??"


With all of the low numbers & chasing his dosing, he actually has not had any insulin for 48 hours & only 0.25 units in the past 72 hours. And even after eating, his PM # was 200. So, we are going to keep working with his low numbers & small doses or drops until we get back to our normal vet. I don't forsee any issues working together to treat Ernie, but if there is a problem with it, we have a few other recommendations in the area already. As I said, I love our vet, we just couldn't get in the day that I needed him to be seen ASAP!
 
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You should have seen the look on her face when I said "So, we can't agree that carbs are bad for diabetics? So a human diabetic should eat all of the candy bars that they want & expect their glucose to stay regulated??"
Oh, that is just priceless!!! :DWish I could have been a fly on the wall ... (I thought you handled that whole situation beautifully!) You are PAWESOME!!!:)
 
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Sounds to me like your vet doesn't know much about diabetes in cats.

For starters, your blood glucose reading at her office would naturally have read lower than the reading she took in the office because she used venous blood and you used capillary. Venous blood will read higher than capillary blood and she should know this!

Secondly, fructosamine does NOT measure glucose nor does it measure insulin concentration in the blood. It measures an amino acid in the blood which produces a picture of how well the cat has been regulated over about a 2 week period. So skipping shots due to low numbers will not affect the fructosamine because the cat is already more "regulated" if the numbers are such that shots need to be skipped.

I had a fructosamine test done on my cat and although her daily numbers were still high, she still had PD/PU and was drinking the well dry, her test came back "well" regulated. She was anything but well regulated! Fructosamine will tell you if a cat is maintaining regulation....it is not however a tool to determine dosing. Unfortunately a lot of vets seem to think it is. I personally think it's a waste of money.

So good for you for pushing her buttons. You are right to find another vet! I too would have loved to have been a fly on the wall during that visit!
 
Thanks for the heads up BJM, so really the readings I was getting are within normal values for the difference between the vet & the human glucometer. Would there be any difference between the blood draw from the rear leg & my ear prick?
Shouldn't be anything significantly different.


See my signature link Vet Interview Topics if you decide to go vet shopping.
 
Ok, so we met with a new vet today at our usual vet & found her to be very well informed. She was speaking the lingo, Nadir, low carb, etc. And the first thing she did was compliment the home charting. She took the chart & went into her office to study it before taking us back to an exam room. She wasn't used to home testing & typically doesn't really like it, because she said it drives pet owners crazy worrying about the numbers & forgetting to judge the pet's overall condition & actions. However, she told me that "obviously, you are watching other clinical signs & not driving yourself insane over the numbers. So I am okay with you continuing to home test."

As a matter of fact, I ended up spending the $49 for the Alpha Trak 2 starter kit. Because she drew blood from his leg & tested it on Relion Confirm, the clinic's Alpha Trak, & the clinic's lab machine. The results on my Relion were far enough off, that I felt it was best to switch to the Alpha, even though the strips are more expensive. My Relion showed 141, their Alpha showed 219, & the lab machine showed 223.

She suggested we continue the no insulin for a week & continue to gather some various numbers through the day or night. She was okay with the Friskies wet, because he is eating it so well & his #'s have dropped. She suggested we try to migrate towards feeding 2-4 times per day instead of free feeding. And she said, if we chose to try dry again in the future, she would suggest trying Purina DM.

She isn't overly familiar with Vetsulin, because they typically use Humulin. I mentioned Lantus & the fact that it is a depot style, that seems to have better remission odds. She told me honestly, she wasn't overly familiar with it. But should we decide to go that route, she would not only support it, but she would research it further as well. One of the main reasons that they use Humulin is due to the fact that it is readily available at Wal-Mart & is a very fair price.


So, we will stay the course for now, checking his BG, letting him be a cat, & hold off on the insulin for now.
 
And she said, if we chose to try dry again in the future, she would suggest trying Purina DM.
Please, please PLEASE do NOT follow that suggestion:
Purina DM dry is about 31% carbs*!!! food chart
I know this; my cat eats a combo of Purina DM canned (which is 3% carbs) & Fancy Feast Classics pate (turkey/giblets @ 4% carbs.)

Most vets are, unfortunately, unaware of the high-carb level of Purina DM dry. (I would assume because the Purina folks have good sales reps that visit vets & vets are too busy to find this out for themselves. My vet thanked me for giving him the heads-up on this!)

If you feed any dry, I strongly urge you to go for the EVO kitten formula or the Young Again Zero carb (I have not used either, but some members have highly recommended these two for dry-food addicts.)

ETA:*scroll down to near-end of food chart; you'll see it listed under "Veterinary Diets" section.
 
An aside: I, too, use an Alpha Trak2 meter, which is calibrated closer to vets' lab equipment. Although an Alpha Trak2 is not a popular choice here @ FDMB (because the strips are expensive & frankly, because a cat can be effectively monitored using human glucometers), it's just fine if you want to pay the additional cost of the strips to use an Alpha Trak. (Ignore anyone who would imply that you're somehow foolish for your choice of meter.;)) But please do make sure you are consulting the reference range specifically for this meter - see Glucometer Notes

I suspect that those vets who don't want a human meter used for monitoring just don't want to have to do the "translation" from human glucometer reference range to Alpha Trak reference range. (I bit the bullet & went with this more expensive meter system just to avoid dealing with my vet's confusion. I may switch later, at some point in the future; I may not. Personally? I like my Alpha Trak2.)
 
She sounds like a good vet! Why did she suggest holding off on insulin if his numbers are over 200? Just curious because I don't understand. Was she afraid that even the teensy drops of insulin would drop him too low?

My cat is one of those dry food addicts that @Robin&BB mentioned. She likes both Evo and YA. Be aware though that there's more fiber in high carb dry so if you feed him these foods, you may need to supplement with some fiber.

To be honest, I WISH Marshmallow would eat wet. I think it's much better for them so I really don't recommend feeding even the low-carb dry foods unless you have to for some reason.
 
She sounds like a good vet! Why did she suggest holding off on insulin if his numbers are over 200? Just curious because I don't understand. Was she afraid that even the teensy drops of insulin would drop him too low?
@granadilla - This may actually be because that test of 219 (on Alpha Trak) was done at vet's office; so is probably higher than Ernie's #s had been over the past week (with the exception of that yellow on 8/17) due to vet-visit stress. Also the "normal" reference range for an Alpha Trak is considerably higher than on the human meters; so there's that ... If that 216 tonight @ +10 was run on an AT, that's actually within the boundaries of "normal" BG#s (off-insulin) as measured on an AT. (Holy cow! Come to think of it: My cat may actually be in remission already. Duh. Ha, no wonder my vet had said a while back, "...you don't need to shoot her unless she's above 200." :rolleyes:)

@Rusty & Jennifer Shafer - If you'll be using your Alpha Trak2 from here on out for BG tests, I'd suggest you start an additional/new SS, specifically geared to your Alpha Trak's BG reference range. Please see my spreadsheet for an example of what I'm talking about: The reference range tabs at top are the standard colors used on FDMB spreadsheets, but you'll note that the actual reference range numbers on those color-coded tabs have been changed to reflect the Alpha Trak reference range.

Is an important distinction; as the beginning of "too-low" zone (hypo) on AT is <69; whereas it's <50 on a human meter. And this will be most helpful to you, your vet & to anyone else who is reading your SS - particularly if/when an emergency situation were to arise. (Simply putting the words "Alpha Trak" somewhere in your SS is not enough - your ref. range numbers at top of page should coincide with your specific meter.)

P.S. Not trying to be "bossy" here, Rusty & Jennifer - just trying to be of assist.:)
 
@granadilla Is an important distinction; as the beginning of "too-low" zone (hypo) on AT is <69; whereas it's <50 on a human meter. And this will be most helpful to you, your vet & to anyone else who is reading your SS - particularly if/when an emergency situation were to arise. (Simply putting the words "Alpha Trak" somewhere in your SS is not enough - your ref. range numbers at top of page should coincide with your specific meter.)

ALSO PLEASE NOTE: Apparently, the beginning of "hypo zone" on an Alpha Trak meter is considered <69 here @ FDMB for those using a Tight Regulation (TR) protocol in treating a cats' diabetes; there has recently been some debate in the Tech Support/Suggestions forum about whether the start of the Alpha Trak hypo zone number should, perhaps, be raised to 80 for an Alphpa Trak user who is not using TR.
 
Yes she wanted to withhold because his numbers had been so good. Even the 234 on 8/17 was 3.5 hours after his dinner, with no insulin. Plus she wanted to hold off because I had mentioned that he gets the "drugged" look about 3-5 hours post shot with Vetsulin, so she wanted to research Lantus in order to make an educated decision. Plus, I think it gives her time to see his numbers on the Alpha Track. The 60 point difference between the Alpha & our Relion made her leery of it's credibility. And at that point, I had a vet who was open to home testing & open to researching a new insulin. I decided to take those victories & spend the $50 to get the meter that would help her digest his charts easier going forward!

As for the Purina DM, I told her that we would hold off for now (didn't want to shoot her down!) But I did mention that I thought it was higher in carbs than the wet DM or the Friskies that he is on currently.

Robin, good point on changing the spreadsheet. I had already thought about starting a new one from scratch for the Alpha, but didn't think to note that it was an Alpha tested sheet. (And you are NOT bossy at all, I appreciate the help, which is why I am here!)
 
Robin, good point on changing the spreadsheet. I had already thought about starting a new one from scratch for the Alpha, but didn't think to note that it was an Alpha tested sheet. (And you are NOT bossy at all, I appreciate the help, which is why I am here!)
@Sue and Oliver (GA) - Is it possible for me to somehow send Rusty & Jennifer a copy of my SS (with Bat's #s erased) so that they can have that as a template for starting their own Alpha Trak SS? (You know how deficient I am in any of the tech stuff that has to do with the SS.:rolleyes:)

@Rusty & Jennifer Shafer - Maybe this would be easiest way (as per my tag to Sue, above)? Anyway, you'd simply have two sheets in your "Google Sheets" account: One called "Relion Meter - Previous," the other "AlphaTrak2 - Current" - or something to that effect. I've seen others do it this way; its a lot less confusing than trying to note two different meters' BG values on the same sheet. (The most important thing is that you have the Alpha Trak numeric values on the colored tabs at top of page when that's the meter you're using -- that makes it clear that your BGs are, indeed, tested on the pet-specific meter.
 
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