Freya's ProZinc Saga

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Blair & Freya, Apr 22, 2017.

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  1. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I'm so sorry you're having trouble finding the foods you want! I think finding foods that our kitties like, we like, and we can afford are some of the hardest parts of figuring this all out. Hopefully HKC will get more in stock soon.

    As far as dosing, the pre-shot numbers are important, but I agree with Kris that the mid-cycle numbers are more helpful in determining dose. If you try to chase the pre-shot around most of the time you either end up with a flat cycle, or you end up with increasingly erratic pre-shot numbers.

    The sticky on advanced dosing for prozinc says that sliding scales should only be used if consistent dosing has been shown to be either dangerous or ineffective after a fair period of time using the cycles of slow, methodical increases.

    As far as shooting on the 241 -- from the stall, you knew Freya was rising which made the regular dose safe. The other option would have been to just go ahead and give the dose at the 241 since it's still well above your No Shot number, and then just monitor. You are getting consistent mid-cycle tests already, so if Freya did start sliding down too quickly, you would see it and be there to steer the cycle (give a little extra food) to keep the numbers safe.
     
  2. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Yep, we generally don't recommend a sliding scale until you've tried the slow, steady increases at first. While we sometimes suggest lowering the dose based on lower than average preshots, that's just for safety's sake. Using a sliding scale every day can be done, but some kitties don't react well to it at all..so we always recommend consistency first. :)
     
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  3. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Thanks, that's good to know. I've still got Caninsulin in my head, I guess. It hit her so hard and fast that I felt I had to be cautious about different pre-shot numbers, even if there wasn't a huge difference. The drops were so dramatic on it. ProZinc is easier on her though, so I'll try to remember that.

    She was 256 (14.2) now around +4. These 200-250+ mid-cycle tests are starting to bother me. The polyuria has been worse again, too.

    Maybe I'll try that tomorrow.
     
  4. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Can you grab a +6 today? A couple of days ago, it looks like Frey had a decent drop between +4 and +6.
     
  5. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Just housework and errands today, so I should be able to get something around +6, yeah. I have a feeling she'll be a mid-to-high blue by then. It just seems that the yellows are encroaching on what had been blue territory, and pushing the blues into what might've been greens or nicer blues.

    She was fixating on her feeder today, so I found her favourite "cat TV" video on YouTube:

    [​IMG]

    She watched that for a while, then went to stalk her feeder again. I broke out her favourite toy to see if she'd chase it. Same concept as a fishing pole toy, except, uh... it's a flimsy bullwhip my mother-in-law got at her charity shop. :confused: This cat is obsessed with it. She chased it all around and jumped up and down furniture until she wore herself out. It's encouraging to see her able to play that hard again. When she was sicker, her eyes would get all big when she'd see her toys, and she'd start to move toward them, but sit down after a few steps. So clearly she's gained some strength and life back since then. :cat:
     
  6. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Kitty TV looks awesome! I'll have to go look for that! It's so good to hear that Freya is feeling better and getting strength back!
     
  7. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Thanks! And if you search for "cat TV" or something similar, it'll come up with a bunch of videos of birds, squirrels, fish and such. She likes the bird ones that are recorded from a distance. I played it through the TV via my phone and that kept her occupied for a little bit.

    I got a little carried away with cleaning, but I did take her +6. It was 187 (10.4), which is about what I was expecting. I've tried explaining to her that she needs to be less sweet. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to look up some CatTV for Maury :cat:. And yes I understand about how nice it is to see them play again! Maury still has a ways to go to get back to his real hard playing self but he was kind of where Freya was. Eyes got excited to see toy but took a few steps and had to rest :(
     
  9. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    That red tonight needs to get gone! Ugh.

    Poor Maury. It's hard to see them like that. Maybe he'll like some TV at least, hahah.
     
  10. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Icky red! I agree with Kris' comment earlier that you could probably up the dose to 2.5u. Make sure it's a cycle you can monitor, of course, but it looks like Freya could use a bit more.
     
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  11. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I second that advice!
     
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  12. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    We did 2.5u this morning. This is a good day for it since I'll be around to keep an eye on her all day and will be sure to test a few times around nadir, at least. I can also sleep on the couch tonight until she's past nadir and set alarms to check on her.

    I have a feeling this may be a good dose for her, especially now that we have the automatic feeder and can leave some carby stuff out if we're worried about leaving her alone. I feel like I've been stuck at home a lot of times I'd have otherwise gone out just because I'm paranoid. This was really the last thing my anxiety disorder needed right now. :blackeye: One day recently, I got an intrusive thought that I'd given her way too much insulin. Couldn't get it out of my head and kept going back to measure out the doses I thought I might have given, and probably did that about fifty times. It's like I had two memories: one of it being the correct dose and one of it not, and both seemed as real. Obviously it was the correct one in the end, but I was shaking and spent hours upset and ruminating on it, unable to do or think about anything else. :banghead: It's an anxiety/OCD thing, and I feel like her diabetes is really screwing with that and bringing me out of "remission" so to speak. The bad part is I can't even tell myself I'm being irrational like usual, because it's not like it's that uncommon for FD cats to go hypo, and then it's like... what if I'm not there? Frustrating! But this is why I'm really hoping the feeder continues to work reliably. It might help to put the brakes on those fixations enough that I don't feel as obligated to stay home whenever I could go out.
     
  13. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Be gentle with yourself, Blair. This is a stressful condition to treat and there are quite a few people on the forums here whose anxiety issues get ramped up high because of it. I can tell you have a lot of awareness of what it does to your thinking and that's a big plus. I'm sure you know all the CBT tools to deal with "flares". :):bighug:
     
  14. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Remember, Blair, that this IS a stressful thing. I won't tell you about the meltdowns I've had, but trust me when I say that I get where you're coming from.

    If you're ever feeling super anxious about it, you can always come here and vent. Sometimes it might just help to have some others who get it to talk it through. :bighug:
     
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  15. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Kris and Rachel are right -- this whole thing can certainly raise our stress levels! I don't know if this is helpful at all, but even if you did give an incorrect dose, you have control over what happens next. First, you would know your kitty was safe by taking a BG test and seeing the numbers. Being able to test gives you so much power over all of this. And even if the numbers went low, you have all of the information you need to manage that, and you have a large community of people here to help you.

    Right now, Freya is giving you very predictable numbers, and insulin responses. You really can safely leave the house.

    It might even help to leave Freya at home, go do something fun, and come back to see that she's just fine. As you do that a few times your confidence in all of this will grow.

    You're doing great (and I'm still in awe of your spreadsheet!)!
     
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  16. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Thanks! Yeah, I have a lot of self-awareness, which helps in certain situations but not in all of them. I guess that's the nature of problems that don't like to listen to logic. And I'm sure it does a number on a lot of people prone to these issues. I used to not talk about it when I was younger, but for the past several years, I don't care anymore. I figure a big reason people feel so weird and isolated is this stuff doesn't get discussed so openly.

    I run errands and do recreational things now and then, but a lot of the time end up wondering how she's doing or staying home when I don't have to be out. We have a pet webcam though from before her diagnosis, and we can talk to her through it and see if she comes running. It was handy the other night when we went for drinks and to see Guardians of the Galaxy. Woke her up from a nice nap, hahah.

    I think I'm still acclimating to the idea that ProZinc is nicer to her. It does seem pretty predictable. Caninsulin wasn't. It was like... okay, is it going to make sense, or is she going to rapidly drop by over 100 points and then launch into orbit two hours later? :eek: I'm slowly getting used to the difference. Really wish she'd been able to use ProZinc from the beginning! I blame Caninsulin for my pre-shot anxiety, hahah. But I understand they're two different insulins and I think I'm starting to internalise that knowledge and that just because Caninsulin did one thing, that doesn't mean ProZinc will.

    Edit: Feel free to copy the spreadsheet if you want! I had to add that food column just because food is A Big Thing for her, but it could probably be modified to suit whatever needs.
     
  17. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I so so so much agree with you that if we were all more open who we are there would be less isolation, and more connection, acceptance, and love. I'm glad that this is a safe enough place that you can share how you're really feeling about it. You are definitely not alone!

    I'm just starting to realize the differences with caninsulin and prozinc, too. Since they are both called in-and-out insulins, I thought they were pretty much the same, but the more I read, and study spreadsheets on here, the more I realize they are really quite different. Not just in duration, but also in reactions, predictability, and dosing. We are all here learning together! If Sam doesn't hurry up and get his act together, I might just take you up on copying your spreadsheet!
     
  18. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Another flat day so far.

    I got impatient and ordered her some more MAC's food to see if that helps break this high/flat thing. I ended up having to get some gigantic cans since everything else was sold out, but I couldn't wait to see when they get more in stock. Our entire fridge/freezer fits underneath the kitchen counter, but I'll worry about how the hell to freeze the excess of 800g cans once they get here, hahah. She's our only cat, so that's a ton of food!
     
  19. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    She had a better AM cycle today on the 2.5u, and tonight there was another big bad red pre-shot. :( At least her food will get here tomorrow. It's just disheartening to see these reds coming back lately. But she did have some blues today, and a much better pre-shot. Still... ugh.
     
  20. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Yucky red. That was a really nice run of blues during the day though!
     
  21. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Yeah, I'm sure she got some blues overnight too, judging by the +4... and by the high pink pre-shot this morning. o_O I'm glad she came down from the red last night. That was her lowest PM +4 in days.

    We're still waiting on this afternoon's MAC's delivery, and she only had 100g of her last can left, so I saved that for her snack times to keep her lower mid-day. She had to have Whiskas for breakfast, but I don't think it'll affect her too badly in comparison. (Whiskas isn't terrible on her BG; I just don't want her relying on it as a primary food.) She might end up having a higher bounce today anyway. I'm actually surprised last night wasn't flat! 2.5u looks like it could be promising if this bouncing levels out.
     
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  22. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Looking forward to seeing how the MAC works out!
     
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  23. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    I went into the kitchen earlier to find this pitiful scene:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    ...She fell asleep there. :rolleyes:
     
  24. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Lol...a familiar scene around here! Freya is so beautiful and panther like!
     
  25. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Oh my! That's a pretty familiar scene here too...Freya really is beautiful!!!!
     
  26. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Thanks! She's looking much better than she was not so long ago. She really looked terrible when she was severely unregulated, but she's getting all shiny again now. I think she's gained a little weight since increasing her portions, too. She certainly hasn't lost any.

    She surprised me with a PMPS of 209 (11.6). Since this was just a smidge above her suggested no-shot of 200, I stalled and she ended up at 220 for her shot. I'm hoping she stays within a decent range because I've got places to go tomorrow and could really use the sleep tonight. I have a feeling I'll be getting up to test anyway. Last night she dropped over 200 points by +4, but other nights she's barely budged. Yeesh. :nailbiting:
     
  27. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    What a beautiful girl she is! :smuggrin:
     
  28. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    She is very pretty! Her coat is looking very nice! :cat:
     
  29. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    How's Freya doing with her BFF (the timed feeder)? ;) It's great to see that overall, her pre-shot numbers are starting to come down a bit! I think she might be due for a dose increase sometime soon. How do you feel about that? Is there a cycle or two this weekend that you can monitor?
     
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  30. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    She's still sitting/lying on her food mat sometimes, but not as much as she was.

    I haven't been around as much this weekend, but I've tried to test her as often as I could. I am getting discouraged with these numbers. I think she's gained a bit of weight; do you think she may need more insulin as a result? I'm just getting worried about her being at these numbers for such stretches of time without much respite. I imagine she was getting a couple hours of blues for some of those PM cycles, but that's just not enough. And the pinks and reds are coming back. This is more red than she's had in quite a while. :(
     
  31. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    She might need a little boost to 2.75 u. Some kitties seem to get "dose complacent" after a while on a certain dose and need a little nudge to start responding better.
     
  32. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Might be due to try 2.75U. Even when she went into the blues, she bounced from them, but has some more room to drop :)
     
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  33. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Yep, I think I'd nudge up to 2.75 as well.
     
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  34. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    I'll try that today and see how she does. It just seems odd since she was doing better on 2.5 and even 2.25 before, and now it's been all mostly-flat highs. o_O I hope it's just her weight gain or some other normal reason and not some weird underlying thing.

    Edit: Would there be a reason her PMPS has been alternating so erratically between yellow, pink, and red? She's never done that before, and even when bouncing previously, it's never been like that. Is that typical? She's been getting some of her lowest pre-shots in those yellows, but then the pinks and high reds are like :eek:
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
  35. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Might be mild glucose toxicity so we'll see if the ~2.75U pushes her through today. A few of the days where she hit blues, look like bouncing, with the most recent being 10 May. BUT she started another bounce cycle last night, higher and flatter. Can you get a +5 and +7 today? I'm curious about something :p
     
  36. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Yes, I was planning to get her at least from +4 to +6 with the dose increase, so can tack on the +7 too.
     
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  37. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    UGH! 272 (15.1) at +4 on the 2.75u! I am losing my mind. :banghead: Will keep testing though!
     
  38. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Alright @Yong, +4 through +7 complete. Not pleased with her at all!
     
  39. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    She just surfed along huh? Looks like the classic after a bounce cycle to me...
     
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  40. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    It was pretty flat, but there was enough movement to look like her nadir is closer to +6 than it is to +4. Does your schedule allow you to get mid-cycles a little later sometimes to try to catch those? And fingers crossed that a few cycles on this increase will start to show something a little better!
     
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  41. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Today was not a good mini curve day for either of us! lol
    But it does look like Frey had a nadir around +6 today. Seems to wiggle between +5 and +6. Good data :)
     
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  42. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    I can get those numbers sometimes, yes. And her ProZinc nadir has always seemed to be around +5 or +6.

    She was 232 (12.9) just now for her PMPS. I'm assuming I should shoot 2.75u again...? I'm still unfamiliar with this.
     
  43. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    I would stick with the same 2.75U with your usual before bed test :)
     
  44. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    I'm hoping maybe the dose increase is starting to snap her out of it, but we know what happens when we get too hopeful...

    I can be up tonight to check on her though if she's not stupidly high mid-cycle. And the reason I often test her at +4 is to decide if I should leave her some more carbs in her feeder in the event that I have to go out, since I know she continues to drop for an hour or two after. Needless to say, that hasn't been a concern of late!

    And @Yong, I just checked out Maury's sheet now that I'm at the laptop again. What was he doing today?! I think he and Freya are playing games.
     
  45. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Combination of bounce cycle and AT2 meter. :p:facepalm:
     
  46. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    148 (8.2) at PM +4! This is a definite step in the right direction. Now, if she'd just keep this up...

    But mostly I'm posting to share this incredulous face she made when I wrapped her up to test her just now (so she doesn't hurt herself):

    [​IMG]
     
  47. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    LOVE THAT FACE!!!!!
     
  48. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    She's very expressive and cracks me up sometimes.

    Today started out with a gross red. She didn't even get that low for that long last night, yet still a huge bounce?! There's more movement so far today than there was during yesterday's AM cycle, but it still looks like it'll be a disappointing cycle of yellows. I really don't know what to do about her being almost all yellow almost all the time for several days. All of a sudden she's doing worse now than she was on Caninsulin, and that wasn't even very good. Her pre-shots are lower, but it's like there's barely anything happening in between. I don't think it's food related either, because if you look at her +4 meals, she continues to drop after having eaten the same stuff she gets for her pre-shot meals. Confusing.
     
  49. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Ugh... PMPS 257, and a +4 of... 254. :( This is getting worrisome. She's barely been below 250 all day.

    Edit: I'm wondering if maybe she's started to react to something in the duck/turkey/chicken variety of MAC's. Her BG continued to rise at +5, an hour after her feeding, which it doesn't do with the other foods. I may experiment to figure out if this is contributing. She hadn't had it at her +4 before, but she did tonight. I'll feed her something different in the morning with the duck/turkey/chicken at +4 and see what that does.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  50. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Will be interesting to see if that's the case
     
  51. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    It's good to experiment and see what could be causing those numbers!
     
  52. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    It looks like maybe it was just an isolated incident because she dropped as usual today.

    She is still high and very flat, though. It's been quite a while now like this, and her polyuria is getting seriously bad again. Do you think I should continue on the 2.75u or look at upping it? Or is there something else I should try?
     
  53. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Every so often, Maury has a bigger than normal pee clump, not quite as bad before diagnosis. Which now seeing his more "regular" size ones, I realize the others were not normal at all!:(. I am thinking it's time to try 3.0U. Prozinc is gentler so we aren't seeing harsh drops to green like Caninsulin did but want to at least get her some more blues! :cat:

    Let's see what the others think too.
     
  54. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Ugh, yeah... Freya's had a few times during treatment that she cut back to a much more normal level, but right now, it's just crazy again. I have a small push bin type garbage can in the bathroom that I scoop it into each day since that really helps me to visualise any changes in amount, and it's back to being almost entirely filled up with giant pee clumps every day. The bin is one of those really small ones meant for bathrooms, but still, that's an absurd amount for one little cat. :(

    Yeah, I'll see what everybody thinks, but you're probably right; I get the feeling an increase is on the horizon.
     
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  55. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    My vote is to increase too.
     
  56. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Looks like we had three votes to increase (assuming @Kris & Teasel "liking" the post indicated agreement), and it was time for her shot, so I gave her 3u tonight. Normally I'd increase during the day, but if I need to get up and check on her, so be it. Really want to see if something will break this trend. Honestly I figured she'd end up at least 3u since she was on even more of Caninsulin. We'll see what tonight brings.
     
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  57. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I think that was a good decision. Hoping this helps you get some lower numbers!
     
  58. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I was in agreement. :)
     
  59. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Practically no change, even with the dose increase. I am getting concerned. At what point do I need to look into some possible underlying reason for this, like some sort of infection or condition? And how would I be able to tell if the insulin has gone bad?
     
  60. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Give the increase a chance to do its work. After three cycles go up another 0.25 u. It's quite likely you haven't reached her good dose range yet.
     
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  61. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    May just be a touch of insulin resistance from being in the same numbers for so long. You'll break through, it just takes some steady increases.
     
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  62. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I think you're seeing a bit of insulin resistance too. Basically, it means that Freya got "stuck" in higher numbers and you need to break through. The way to do that is to just go up in those small increments every few cycles. We've seen it plenty of times, and eventually you just reach the dose that works and suddenly BAM...lower numbers! Don't give up hope or let yourself worry too much (pot calling kettle black right here :rolleyes:). You'll get there!
     
  63. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    I've been hoping that's the case. Do they usually end up needing a decrease after that, or do they tend to keep needing the higher dose?

    Today's AM cycle is looking no different from all the previous ones lately. You can increase after three cycles, right? If so, I'll probably be doing that tomorrow.

    She's just starting to revert some in her appearance (flaky coat) and behaviour (a bit lethargic), so that's what's been worrying me some.
     
  64. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Oh, I suddenly remembered what I was thinking about this morning. Might it help if I give her an additional meal during each cycle, so she's not eating as much at the pre-shot? Right now she's getting more food at her pre-shot meal and then about half as much at each +4. I could just add another meal time to her feeder if that has the potential to make any difference. I struggle a bit to understand optimal feeding times in the cycle, but I know smaller meals help a lot of cats. It just seems to me like it would cause the BG to start rising earlier if not given at the right time?
     
  65. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Just from my experience, cos ECID ;), once you poke through the "glass floor" of insulin toxicity you might hold that dose for a little bit, numbers permitting but you'll see better cycles, you may be able to decrease. Maury highest dose was 3.0U for seven cycles, which initiated his first reduction. Now I'm hanging in this frustrating 2.0U range :p trying to see more blue and green again. Anyways, I'm not the greatest at explaining things so I hope I didn't confuse you lol. I could've just said YES but it's not definitive so I don't feel comfortable not leaving some sort of explanation :smuggrin:

    You could try just splitting her meals up like you suggested. I give Maury's lunch between +3 and +4 (except today:oops:). I'd rather him have it when insulin is peaking as opposed to after he's hit nadir and it's less active. He still needs more calories so he gets same portions for now.
     
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  66. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Her PMPS is 200. I should give 3u still?
     
  67. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    1. You could try to stall for 20 minutes
    2. OR give 3.0U and maybe check at +2 and +4
    3. OR give F2.75U and regular checks
    :)
     
  68. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    I'm really thinking 3.0U will be OK for tonight after looking at your SS for a couple more minutes. Just wanted to give you some options as fast as I could while being safe. I know how waiting for dosing advice can make time stand still ;)
     
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  69. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Okay, thanks! I had a feeling it would be okay, it's just I haven't injected that low before so felt like I should get confirmation. I'll try her on the 3u and keep a close eye on her with at least a few tests. In the past, I've regretted the times I've given her less when it was kind of borderline.
     
  70. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    I know the feeling :smuggrin:
     
  71. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    I gave her a talk before her shot. She was told she's not supposed to go too low but I don't want her to be 272 at +4 again. History shows her to be a bad listener, though... :rolleyes:
     
  72. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Ohhhh very nice preshot!

    Yes, when you break through that glass ceiling of insulin toxicity, it might take a bit, but usually we see kitties start to slide back down the scale after that. I don't know all the science of it, but my guess is that the insulin toxicity means they need that higher dose to break the cycle, but the "ideal" dose is actually lower than that...it just wasn't working because of the toxicity issue. So once you finally get them to start the lower numbers, they need less insulin so they can get back to that ideal dose...and then it's on to the normal work of trying to work them down. Not sure how accurate all that is, it's just my thoughts as to what happens.
     
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  73. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Rachel explained it much better! :)
     
  74. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    That makes sense, thank you.

    Tonight is shaping up to be extremely disappointing. She jumped up to 342 (19) at +2. :( I guess we're facing another increase since this was the third cycle?

    It's just confusing because she had been doing better just days ago. And that 2.5u she started ProZinc on looked so good for multiple cycles, and then it all went bad and her symptoms are worsening. I've even wondered sometimes if I bypassed a good dose somewhere and all this is a reaction to that? I'm not even sure how that would be determined or addressed. I've just been racking my brain for all possibilities.

    One strange thing is that I've noticed her fur has gone reddish brownish in places, like on her face and neck/chest area -- possibly elsewhere, but I haven't looked. She's an indoor cat, and this is Scotland anyway, so the sun is an unlikely cause. I worry something may be going on with organ function or nutrition or something along those lines. Her fur has always been black, with lighter greyish areas near the root -- never red/brown-tinged. I can't say for sure when this started either.
     
  75. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Aug 1, 2015
    Good job holding the dose! That's hard to do with a low pre-shot, but looking at the +2, it looks like you made the right call!
     
  76. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Ugh yeah, seriously. Though I'm not even convinced the insulin is doing much of anything. :confused:
     
  77. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Just out of curiosity, where are you giving her injections?
     
  78. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Oh, I inject along the sides and flanks, and try to rotate the location each time. I've been doing that except for at the very beginning.
     
  79. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Her BG has done nothing but rise today. I was trying to compensate for an air bubble that wouldn't go away this morning, so she may have even gotten a slightly fat 3u.

    I think I'm going to give her some Smilla food either tonight or tomorrow to see again if something food-related is complicating matters. It's so weird that she's having many of her lowest pre-shots ever, but just not budging much during the cycle, or else continuing to rise. And she didn't appear to be sensitive to this food when I trialled it on her, but the way food sensitivities are, I know it's possible for them to develop at random. Think I'll try the Smilla Poultry with Poultry Hearts since she was getting some of her best numbers ever on that. I don't know for sure the carb content because the analysis comes out to more than 100% on that variety, so it's like... zero-point-whatever. And I'm still not convinced that's what this is.

    It's getting bewildering, though.
     
  80. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 17, 2016
    As frustrating as this is, I'd continue with the slow dose increases. She was at 3 u of Caninsulin before the switch. You might be able to go higher with ProZinc because it's less likely to drop her too fast/low.
     
  81. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    The pre-shots are creeping up into pink again, and cycles are barely changing. :blackeye:

    I meant to give 3.25u for three cycles, but in my sleep-deprived mind this morning, it had already been three cycles when in reality it was only two. So she got 3.5u today. Looking at those stupid numbers, I doubt upping it a cycle early will be a terrible thing. It's like I'm hoping it gets results, but at the same time I'm not getting my hopes up, if that makes sense. The worst part though is seeing her symptoms acting up again.
     
  82. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    The early raise should be okay -- it just might cause a little bouncing, but you know how to keep an eye on her and it will settle out (if it does happen). I'm so sorry she isn't being very responsive right now. Just keep doing what you're doing. You'll break through - it just takes some time. I think raising every three cycles right now is a good plan - especially if she's showing more symptoms again.
     
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  83. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Kind of glad she got the 3.5u today. She's still too high at +4, but we're sub-200 at least? I'm just scared it'll end up like the other times where she briefly responds to a dose, then resists it again. :nailbiting: I'll test again at +5 to see what the food is doing...

    Edit: Her +4 meal was a MAC's today since I had pre-portioned meatsicles of it already in the freezer to leave out. Kind of wish her breakfast hadn't emptied the Smilla can this morning, but we can test that some more another time I suppose. I want to try her on the Smilla Poultry with Fish too because she had a nice low cycle on that before.
     
  84. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    God, and speaking of food, this beast managed to open the garbage can lid and was clattering around in the kitchen trying to get to it! She doesn't feel like she's lost weight since eating more calories, but here comes the polyphagia again. :facepalm:
     
  85. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    I can't remember if you said she needs to gain or lose, but remember that at higher numbers, they really do need to eat a bit more (unless you're trying to get her to lose weight, in which case you can use this to your advantage). It's okay to increase her food if she's underweight though.

    That's so great to see a better reaction to the insulin this cycle! What you've noticed about her having good responses to a dose change, and then flattening back out, is really normal. Frustrating, but normal.

    On the food: If I gave Sam a slightly higher or lower carb food, there wasn't much immediate change. However, about two weeks after I switched him to a 6% carb food, his numbers started to creep up. I put him back on a 1-3% carb food, and now a week later, his numbers seem to be a little lower again. It might just be a coincidence, but I'm starting to wonder if food changes take longer to show up than I've been thinking, and if maybe it takes awhile to know if something is too much for our sugar kitties to handle? Just a thought since you have been experimenting with some food changes too. At this point I would say it's too early to know if it's a pattern or a coincidence, but something to consider....?
     
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  86. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Yeah, she's actually gained weight recently after having previously lost it. She's already eating more calories and at the moment I don't want her to gain more weight but am keeping a close eye on it for any loss.

    Oh god, it actually scares me to think what Freya would be like on a 6% carb food right now, hahah. Most of what she's eating, I believe, is 2% or lower (around 1% on the Turkey/Blueberry and Poultry/Cranberry). The highest is the Whiskas at around 3.8%. Smilla's labelling isn't quite accurate as has been noted on the food lists, because Poultry/Poultry Hearts comes out to a negative at -2.1%, and Poultry/Fish is apparently -3.6%. :rolleyes: But they are likely still low and haven't seemed to mess with her in the past. She was eating it for a good stretch of time there before and at the start of her ProZinc transition and did get some decent numbers on it. But I'm always brainstorming about her food.
     
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  87. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Sorry for the post spam but whoa, check it out! :cat: She got a bit of freeze-dried tuna treat for that +5.
     
  88. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Nice! Way to go, Freya!
     
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  89. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Wow, she's 86 (4.8) at +6. Since she usually starts rising after this point anyway, do you think I should just hold off on feeding her? She's not showing any symptoms. Other times I've fed her in the greens it was because she was still due to drop and was lower than this.
     
  90. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    If you don't normally feed her at this point, I don't think you need to. 4.8 is still quite safe, especially if she's due to rise anyway.

    PS Good chance you'll get either a bounce or a high flat cycle tonight. But isn't it nice to see a green?!?!
     
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  91. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Okay, that's what I thought. The only time so far that I've fed her in greens is when she was 61 (3.4) at +5, because she was still going to be dropping (which brought her to 56 [3.1] at +6).

    I am pleased with today though and feel like at least maybe we're getting somewhere. But now I've had to delay going out for my own dinner to make sure she doesn't do one of her sudden random drops to a not-as-nice green. :rolleyes:
     
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  92. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Well, I was hoping she'd stay in a highish green or lower blue for a while longer, but she went back up about forty minutes after the last test. At least it's still blue though, and I can go eat now. This cat has eaten more today than I have!
     
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  93. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Wow that's so nice! Yeah you might end up with a bouncy higher number tonight, but at least you know the insulin is working!!!! Remember that if you get a high number today, don't increase the dose. You want to stick with your dose since that number won't be "real" if it's a bounce from today. :)
     
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  94. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Now that she's dropped down to numbers low enough to bounce from, I'll hold the 3.5u for at least six cycles for sure (barring anything that would warrant reduction). Just that for a while there, she wasn't even getting low enough to bounce no matter what I did. o_O Curious what her PM cycle will bring. I take her PMPS in just over two hours from now.
     
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  95. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    Annnnd there's the gross bounce. Hopefully things will level out rather than shoot up only to resist this dose.

    She got some Smilla Poultry with Fish tonight to celebrate and got all fluffy when she smelled it. Maybe I can bribe her with it... :cool:

    Edit: Erm... she gets to lick the food-spoon after her shots as a treat. She's going crazy wondering why she can still smell it despite there being nothing left:

    [​IMG]

    :facepalm: What a slob. Can't take her anywhere.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  96. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Oh, but those eyes!!! She is so pretty!
     
  97. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Ah well...knew it was coming! And she's absolutely beautiful!!!
     
  98. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Beautiful kitty!
     
  99. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

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    So majestic! Cute little spot on her nose! :cat:
     
  100. Blair & Freya

    Blair & Freya Member

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    Mar 19, 2017
    I believe that was a scrap of fish. :rolleyes: Ever since I got the automatic feeder, she faceplants her entire head into the compartments and gets the stuff all over herself. Last week, she had a piece that started on her nose and somehow migrated up to the top of her head before she managed to get it.

    She does appear to be bouncing right now, but so far today and last night, she at least got into high blues a little -- even with the bigger AM meal this morning. Anxiously waiting to see if she'll work her way back down to lower numbers again. I'll be annoyed if what happened before repeats itself.

    I have to say, she's been more relaxed today -- even WALKING AWAY FROM THE FEEDER to go hang out somewhere else. :eek: I wonder if she's feeling a little less crappy already.
     
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