Me & Spike are new to all this...BG Question

Lee Renfro

Lee Renfro

Member Since 2022
New to having a diabetic cat on insulin and testing with a ReliOn Classic meter, so not many data points in my spreadsheet. Just got home from some errands and tested Spike at 6.25 hrs after his AM shot. IT IS 64!!! Should I be alarmed, as he is only showing the sign of hunger...NOT unusual, as this fella has ALWAYS tried to eat us out of house and home. I gave him a couple spoons of his urinary purina wet and he is telling me he wants more. I got the "Newbie Panics"...lol

@Diane Tyler's Mom
@Hendrick's mom and dad
 
Thank you. This is day 9 of following vets advice of 3u of ProZinc and I was sent home to fly blind until day 7 when I found FDMB. As my SS shows, I'm still giving 3u every 12 hrs, but now with testing B4 shots and trying to get some mid-cycle data points to see how it is working, especially because I'm a trucker working 10-11 hr shifts most days, but took today off to see dentist and try to get some numbers on my lil buddy Spike...especially since day 1, I've been terrified of walking into the house and finding him in a full-blown hypo situation (yes, I've got corn syrup).. right now, he seems fine except for being hungry and poking me to feed him...he loves his "Cat Daddy" and often is elected to wake me up with a gentle poke to the chin if I don't wake up as soon as the alarm goes off on work days...he don't understand sleeping in on a Sunday either.

Thank you for your help.
 
Jo B said:
Until an administrator chimes in, you're good above 50 on a human meter. Prozinc usually peaks at 5-6 hours so just test to make sure keeps going up.
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Spike is now 178 @ 9.25 be was given 2.5 oz of his purina pro plan focus urinary tract wet and 3 temptations catnip sensation treats. I might have done theexact wrong thing during the nadir, but...I got a Lil nervous. I don't think I could handle a hypo event just yet...lol
 
That's good! I know; we want lower numbers but dread low numbers. I'm the same.

So in the future, if you get a lower number, as long as not hypo, just test to make sure going back up .With more testing, you'll know when Spike hits his nadir or lowest point . It's usually 5- 6 hours after shot, but is different in every cat and can even change.

You did great for Spike!
 
Jo B said:
That's good! I know; we want lower numbers but dread low numbers. I'm the same.

So in the future, if you get a lower number, as long as not hypo, just test to make sure going back up .With more testing, you'll know when Spike hits his nadir or lowest point . It's usually 5- 6 hours after shot, but is different in every cat and can even change.

You did great for Spike!
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Thank you. I just worry because I have to work all day (and sleep all night...lol) and I live alone deep in the Northeast Texas country with Spike and 5 other spoiled, healthy kitties.
 
Hi Lee! We all struggle with this. I'm on my 3rd diabetic cat and still identify with all that you've said. This group is helpful. Do you leave food out while you are gone?
 
Anytime Spike drops under 90 you need to reduce by 0.25 units.
So tonight dose should be 2.75 units.

I see you said in post #3
Thank you. This is day 9 of following vets advice of 3u of ProZinc and I was sent home to fly blind until day 7 when I found FDMB. As my SS shows, I'm still giving 3u every 12 hrs, but now with testing B4 shots and trying to get some mid-cycle data points to see how it is working, especially because I'm a trucker working 10-11 hr shifts most days, but took today off to see dentist and try to get some numbers on my lil buddy Spike...especially since day 1, I've been terrified of walking into the house and finding him in a full-blown hypo situation (yes, I've got corn syrup).. right now, he seems fine except for being hungry and poking me to feed him...he loves his "Cat Daddy" and often is elected to wake me up with a gentle poke to the chin if I don't wake up as soon as the alarm goes off on work days...he don't understand sleeping in on a Sunday either.

Do you have an automatic feeder for him while you are gone so long
I'm going to tag some members to see if you should reduce more than 0.25 units
Can you test him more in weekends?
I know you have to sleep at night but you at least need to get a before bed test done in case he starts dropping too low
Also please add the meter you are using to your signature, I see it on your SS Relion Premier


@FrostD

@Bron and Sheba (GA)

@Bandit's Mom

@Wendy&Neko

@tiffmaxee
 
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Good job getting started!

I think a 0.25U reduction is ok, BUT the more conservative option since you can't be home for many days in a row would be a 0.5U reduction. Any history of ketones or DKA? Are you testing for ketones at home?

Couple of things I just want to baseline on:
- Why the urinary food? And which flavor/protein?

- The correct sequence is fast for 2 hrs before the preshot test, do the test, feed, then shoot (you can shoot with his head in the bowl if you wanted, just make sure he eats at least a tsp or so). No need to fast for midcycle tests, just the preshot ones so you have consistent data points to base decisions on

- When starting we say you can give the full dose if the preshot is 200 or higher. Under that stall without feeding and post for help. You don't want to stall too long because then you'd be off schedule, and with your job you can't get too far off schedule. But honestly, any time you get an unusual number at any point feel free to ask for advice.

- what's current feeding schedule? We usually make the PS meals the largest, and give small snacks up til nadir. We try not to feed after nadir because the insulin is wearing off, but some cats can't go that long, so a small snack in the latter part of the cycle is ok.
- you will want to do a curve on your day off, ideally once a week. Testing every other hour. Whatever nighttime spot checks you can get are helpful as well, since they tend to go lower at night

Always err on the side of extra carbs when you get low numbers, especially with minimal data. Always good to post and ask for advice too. Eventually you'll get the hang of it :) typically (for human meters) we save high carb food for the 40-49 range, or for really large drops that would result in low numbers; you want to test every 20-30 mins in that range. High carb + karo is for under 40, testing every 15 mins because the syrup wears off. 50-59 near best bet is medium carb food, test every 30 mins. Above 60 near nadir, just regular low carb, test every 30-45 mins. 70s+ near nadir generally doesn't need food, test 30-69 mins. Now, for each of those ranges - if you see those early in the cycle, bump up to the next carb category (so a 55 early in the cycle, give high carb). Again, when in doubt just throw carbs at him, ideally wet food carbs (dry carbs tend to stick around longer and make things more unpredictable).

Due diligence - food list with carbs is here. Low carb (LC) is 9% and under. Medium carb (MC) is 10-15%. High carb (HC) is 16-20%. Very high carb is anything above that, but I keep some 22-25% foods on hand just in case.
 
I do leave food out both at night and while gone. Purina pro plan urinary formula dry for him to graze on. I figure he will go eat some when he gets low as he is STARVING around the nadir. Vet put him on the urinary formula 3 yrs ago as he had bladder stones once, but not since. The other kitties all like it mid-day also, so thats our kibble. The others get Friskies Chicken & Tuna Prime Filets or Pate that Spike also loves but I have to feed him separately.
Both me and Spike use the ReliOn Premier Classic meter...lol
Thank you for the info on all this dosing etc.
 
Just got a 256 AMPS for the 1ST time this low. Should I give the full 3u???

AMPS IS 0700 & PMPS is 1900.....7 and 7...lol and yes, these are his largest meals right after that then the shot.
 
Lee Renfro said:
Just got a 256 AMPS for the 1ST time this low. Should I give the full 3u???

AMPS IS 0700 & PMPS is 1900.....7 and 7...lol and yes, these are his largest meals right after that then the shot.
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Are you home today or no?

New full dose is 2.5U or 2.75U, whichever you're more comfortable with. I prefer the 2.5U for extra cushion.

We usually say shoot full dose over 200, but that's when we know the dose is a good dose. Not sure about that right now. If you have to leave, you can try a reduced dose like 1-1.5U.
 
FrostD said:
Are you home today or no?

New full dose is 2.5U or 2.75U, whichever you're more comfortable with. I prefer the 2.5U for extra cushion.

We usually say shoot full dose over 200, but that's when we know the dose is a good dose. Not sure about that right now. If you have to leave, you can try a reduced dose like 1-1.5U.
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I just gave 2.5u as I just can't take the risk of him dropping too low while I'm gone till about 5pm CST today. HIS PS #'s are down from where we stated and I don't want him catering while I'm working. I leave proplan urinary dry out for them all while I'm gone. I'm sure Spike will graze during the mid-day cycle.
Thank you. My first time doing something on my own.....darned vet just left me to fly blind but y'all are truly a godsend for me and my lil buddy Spike.

All this now shown on Spikes SS.
 
We've got 3 Yellows in a row as of 2pm cst today. I guess that going to 2.5u this am is OK. As y'all say, better high for a day than too low for a minute. Now it's +9.5 and we're back up to 340.

Should I give him the 3u tonight as he will surely continue to climb as he fasts these next 2 hrs?

Yes, I need to invest in a timed feeder for when I'm working or sleeping.

@Hendrick's mom and dad
@FrostD
 
N
Lee Renfro said:
We've got 3 Yellows in a row as of 2pm cst today. I guess that going to 2.5u this am is OK. As y'all say, better high for a day than too low for a minute. Now it's +9.5 and we're back up to 340.

Should I give him the 3u tonight as he will surely continue to climb as he fasts these next 2 hrs?

Yes, I need to invest in a timed feeder for when I'm working or sleeping.

@Hendrick's mom and dad
@FrostD
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No, do not adjust the dose based on higher numbers. Hold the dose for at least a week, unless he goes below 90 (or you can reasonably infer he did). At the end of the week, after a curve, you decide whether to hold or increase .
 
FrostD said:
N

No, do not adjust the dose based on higher numbers. Hold the dose for at least a week, unless he goes below 90 (or you can reasonably infer he did). At the end of the week, after a curve, you decide whether to hold or increase .
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We went down from 3u to 2.5u this am due to him testing that 64 yesterday at +6.5 hrs. He's been on 3u since he started until this am. He was 244 at +6.5 then 340 at +9.5 today. He vomited 30 minutes ago (he usually doesn't very often), so I was wondering did he need the full 3u with these higher numbers???

Also, I can't catch him peeing to get a test strip in it to save my life...he sneaks to the letterbox and I'm too late.....

Please advise as it's almost time for his PM shot.
@FrostD
 
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Sorry I wasn't around. Good job with the 2.5U. when a reduction is earned (by dropping below 90), it is a "permanent" reduction - meaning you hold the new reduced dose for at least a week, unless another reduction is earned.

They make blood ketone meters if you think that will be easier. Work the same way as glucometer, just usually require bigger drop of blood (and strips are more expensive). I use the NovaMax plus
 
Also, I really don't see a need for the urinary formula anymore, though I'll take a stab and tag @Bron and Sheba (GA) and see if she has opinion (shot in the dark Bron!).

The good news is the wet urinary is already low carb...but it would be best if you can get him off kibble entirely. Or, there are a few low carb dry foods as well. Do not make any diet changes yet, it can lower numbers quite a bit sometimes so we have to be careful. If you would like to change, let us know ahead of time and we can help.
 
FrostD said:
Also, I really don't see a need for the urinary formula anymore, though I'll take a stab and tag @Bron and Sheba (GA) and see if she has opinion (shot in the dark Bron!).

The good news is the wet urinary is already low carb...but it would be best if you can get him off kibble entirely. Or, there are a few low carb dry foods as well. Do not make any diet changes yet, it can lower numbers quite a bit sometimes so we have to be careful. If you would like to change, let us know ahead of time and we can help.
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Tagging @Bron and Sheba (GA) again because I had to edit post and not sure if broke tag
 
I would get rid of the urinary dry food as well, but not until you can be there to monitor the BGs for a few days. I would encourage fluids. I never understand vets prescribing dry food for urinary problems when it is wet food and fluids that are needed.:banghead:
Not sure how you will work out the timed feeder with 5 other cats…..although timed feeders are great.
 
@FrostD look at that, my first tag by a new member looking for help :woot:

unfortunately @Lee Renfro ...my boy is on Lantus not Prozinc and I am not the guy to dispense any dosing advice on either of them anyway lol. I know I was one of the first people to respond to your new member thread but truth is I am new to this as well -- Melissa (FrostD) and others like Bron are the experts here. But you can tag me anytime you like in any post just know I probably don't have the answer -- but you can bet I'll try and help you get it!
 
Hendrick's mom and dad said:
@FrostD look at that, my first tag by a new member looking for help :woot:

unfortunately @Lee Renfro ...my boy is on Lantus not Prozinc and I am not the guy to dispense any dosing advice on either of them anyway lol. I know I was one of the first people to respond to your new member thread but truth is I am new to this as well -- Melissa (FrostD) and others like Bron are the experts here. But you can tag me anytime you like in any post just know I probably don't have the answer -- but you can bet I'll try and help you get it!
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I understand, you give sum awesum emotional support as Spike & I navigate through this chapter. He just scored a 232 @+5 and a 251 @+6 now that FrostD explained how he earned a reduction from 3u to 2.5u due to him having a 64 @+6 back on the 10th (which scared me to death). Oddly, now that he is getting 2.5u since then, his numbers are staying in the mid-200's (which don't scare me so badly). I guess this is good progress, and my reading comprehension about his "new" dose being 2.5u was just what I needed clarification on. I don't wanna underdose, yet I can't have him going hypo in the nadir during the night or while I'm at work...lesser of the two evils, I recon.

One thing that concerns me is since going to the "new" dose of 2.5u he vomited once for sure yesterday and most probably again between +10 & +11 during the night. He is normally NOT a puker and always has an appetite. Would the new lower dose cause that, I wonder, after having the 3u dose for like the first 10 days....I have so much to learn, but my lil buddy deserves the best I can give him.

I was able to get a walmart ketone strip though his urine stream last nite and although my fingers got soaked, it was definitely negative. I put a second one in the puddle b4 it soaked into the Arm&Hammer cat litter and was also negative.

I'm really new to forum etiquette even though I have lurked for years on a Camaro SS & a black powder shooting forum...lol

According to the calculator on here, the Purina ProPlan Urinary Salmon flavor is 14% carbs...high, I know. I have removed Spikes access to the dry kibble and he doesn't miss it. He demands the wet & walks past the dry. At +6 today, he was desperately searching for contraband though. I'll prolly have to leave him some out for when I'm away in case he gets low during the day.

I'm tagging @FrostD so she can hopefully put eyes on this long post and chime in if necessay.

Thank you all for being so helpful, and for just being here.
 
Lee Renfro said:
Never saw a pre-shot number this low before. It's 136 and time for his PM shot. Hope someone see this and can tell me what I need to give him. See my SS and you'll see that I m a Lil concerned.

@FrostD
@Diane Tyler's Mom
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Here's from the "Prozinc Basics" sticky:
  • The proper sequence for dosing insulin is: Test/Feed/Shoot. In the beginning, if your cat’s BG is not up to at least 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}, if your schedule allows, you can stall (without feeding) for 20+minutes, then retest the BG. You are looking for a number that is rising, not falling and up to 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}. If you stall once, but can’t do another round of stalling and your cat hasn’t reached a BG of 200 mg/dL {11 mmol/L}, you’ll need to skip the dose and wait until the next cycle. NOTE: Because pet-specific meters (such as the AlphaTrak2) often read higher than human meters, you may want to adjust the NO-SHOOT number to 225 mg/dL {12.5 mmol/L} or even 250 mg/dL {14 mmol/L} This gives you an added margin of safety when using an AlphaTrak2 or other pet-specific meter.
 
and from the dosing sticky:

Q4.4. My cat's pre-shot level was way below the usual value. Should I give the injection?

A4.4. There's no hard and fast rule, but if you don't have data on how your cat responds to insulin, here are some general guidelines.
  • Below 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), don't give insulin.
  • Between 150 and 200 (8.3-11.1 mmol/L), you have three options:
    • a.) give nothing
    • b.) give a token dose (10-25% of the usual dose)
    • c.) feed as usual, test in a couple of hours, and make a decision based on that value
  • Above 200 (11.1 mmol/L) but below the cat's normal pre-shot value, a reduced dose might be wise.
 
Re-read the above sticky. Still got the Nesbie Panics and had was shocked to see him at 136 at +12. I'll keep monitoring but he found about a spoon of food the others didn't eat, so thats gonna screw up mu next #.
 
FrostD said:
When did you remove access to kibble?
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Nobody has had any kibble since Night b4 last. I went to the store for past 3 hrs and spike stayed outside on porch. I ran inside, did his test, and turned around and he was already in the kitchen eating about 1 tablespoon of his wet that he didn't finish from this am....he beat me to the bowl.
BTW, Spike never has been a big kibble eater. He loves the wet but I had kept both and allowed the others to graze on it. Spike begs for wet when I walk through the house...not a kibble guy.
 
Lee Renfro said:
Nobody has had any kibble since Night b4 last. I went to the store for past 3 hrs and spike stayed outside on porch. I ran inside, did his test, and turned around and he was already in the kitchen eating about 1 tablespoon of his wet that he didn't finish from this am....he beat me to the bowl.
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Ah ok! Ok so this explains a lot. Changing carbs can have big impact on numbers and dose. We need to change your dose, just not sure to what yet

I know he just ate, but can you test again now please?

Are you home tomorrow? This delay will cause an issue with time change so a skip may be better, but let's see next test
 
FrostD said:
Ah ok! Ok so this explains a lot. Changing carbs can have big impact on numbers and dose. We need to change your dose, just not sure to what yet

I know he just ate, but can you test again now please?

Are you home tomorrow? This delay will cause an issue with time change so a skip may be better, but let's see next test
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He never was a fan of any dry food and ate very little of the proplan UTH; only occasionally. He'd rather beg for the wet version. The others ate lots of it...so, hey, we all like it, so I kept buying it.

And yes, I know about time change issues (read the thread yesterday) and really wanted to make it a smooth transition but spike BG had other ideas tonite.
 
Lee Renfro said:
Just got a 194...8:15pm cst.
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Ok here's what I suggest - 1U tonight, if you can monitor. Even though he ate, that's a bigger food bump than I would expect if he was still on his way down.

Tomorrow morning, at your normal shot time, start a new dose of 1.75U assuming he's above 200. Hold that for a few days unless he earns a reduction. This is an overly cautious reduction because of the diet change, and that your job leaves.you gone most of the day. If you aren't home tomorrow, feel free to reduce a bit more if that will make you more comfortable. Right now it's sort of pin the tail on the donkey as the extra carbs come out of his system.

Note to any lurkers this is a special circumstance based on variety of factors.
 
I am home Sunday except for 11am to noon and 6pm to7pm for church and Bible study. I will eventually also have to sleep tonite also.

Will this 1.0u dose make him sick since he has been used to getting 2.5u for several days now?
 
Lee Renfro said:
I am home Sunday except for 11am to noon and 6pm to7pm for church and Bible study. I will eventually also have to sleep tonite also.

Will this 1.0u dose make him sick since he has been used to getting 2.5u for several days now?
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So what is likely making him sick/not feel good is the swings in BG, or sometimes they feel the need to eat too quickly with the BG changes. The tricky part here is getting to a dose where the swings are minimized.

Because he was so low tonight, the prudent thing to do is a temporary reduced dose - because giving him a higher dose may very likely cause a hypo, but skipping altogether will just have him climb higher and higher and also feel like crap. So the idea is hopefully the 1U is enough to keep him from climbing too high, but not drop too low, and also leave you a shootable number in the morning at your normal time. It's a bit of an art right now vs concrete science.

Tonight - start with a +2. If he's higher, again at +5 just to be safe. If he's flat, a +3.5. Drops, post on main forum for advice. I likely will not be up, so if you need guidance post on main forum with a link to this thread so they can see the discussion.
 
Ok. I suggest getting a +11 tonight (so an hour before the morning shot) so that you can tell if he's on his way up at shot time and potentially save you another stall
 
At +14 hrs he is 218. I gave him the 1.0u. I'll recheck at the times u said. I update my SS immediately, so all can see what's going on.

Thank you so much. I couldn't do any of this without you all.

Makes me mad the vet sends me home with a powerful dangerous hormone and just says ,"see yall on the 14th......geeeesh!
 
And just to reiterate - normally you need to keep 12 hours between shots. ProZinc sometimes has a bit of leeway, especially if duration is shorter than 12 hours - we will see in the morning.

Since you are home tomorrow, you could also move it back 1 hr in the morning and 1 hr in the evening vs 2 hrs in the morning (I prefer the 1 hr and 1 hr). Not sure how that translates with time change and your work schedule.
 
FrostD said:
And just to reiterate - normally you need to keep 12 hours between shots. ProZinc sometimes has a bit of leeway, especially if duration is shorter than 12 hours - we will see in the morning.

Since you are home tomorrow, you could also move it back 1 hr in the morning and 1 hr in the evening vs 2 hrs in the morning (I prefer the 1 hr and 1 hr). Not sure how that translates with time change and your work schedule.
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I was thinking a similar thought on timing as time change. My original plan went away when he threw me this lil curveball.

I'm not too proficient on using a forum. But I'll link this thread to any new post much later tonite on the main thread....once I get that figured out...lolol

Once again, I mean this from the bottom of my heart..Thank you and may God bless you.
 
Lee Renfro said:
I was thinking a similar thought on timing as time change. My original plan went away when he threw me this lil curveball.

I'm not too proficient on using a forum. But I'll link this thread to any new post much later tonite on the main thread....once I get that figured out...lolol

Once again, I mean this from the bottom of my heart..Thank you and may God bless you.
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You are most welcome! I always find it to be a curious little place God put me in lol A diabetic cat forum in the recesses of the internet :joyful:
 
Well, for 13 years now, I've said, "God puts you right where you need to be, and at exactly when you need to be there". As far as I'm concerned, he got you on the internet and built years of experiences up, so that when Spike needed you, you were right there...lol. sorry, didn't mean to go all Forrest Gump on ya.
 
Gave 1.75u at +9.75 hrs due to time change plus last night's stall and 1.0u dose. He was 344 at AMPS. Only woke up and tested once (@+4 it was 264) Today, I can plenty of testing done.
 
FrostD said:
Ah was hoping he'd stay a little lower but that's ok. What time is tonight's shot?
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I'm aiming for about 7:15 to 7:30 tonite and that will give be sum room to give it at 07:00 tomorrow AM. He's seeing the Vet Monday at 4:30PM for bloodwork and the Vet will see my SS and his human meter numbers. Either she'll freak out or "she'll kick in" and become one of those dream vets. Either way, I'll prolly get a lecture...lol. I know she's a vet and I'm no endocrinologist, but rather, a simple trucker with a business degree...lol
 
Lee Renfro said:
I'm aiming for about 7:15 to 7:30 tonite and that will give be sum room to give it at 07:00 tomorrow AM. He's seeing the Vet Monday at 4:30PM for bloodwork and the Vet will see my SS and his human meter numbers. Either she'll freak out or "she'll kick in" and become one of those dream vets. Either way, I'll prolly get a lecture...lol. I know she's a vet and I'm no endocrinologist, but rather, a simple trucker with a business degree...lol
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Ok good. We'll see how he does today, you might have leeway to go back up to 2-2.25U, we'll see.
 
FrostD said:
Ok good. We'll see how he does today, you might have leeway to go back up to 2-2.25U, we'll see.
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I hope we can. My u40 syringes that came with the Prozinc aren't marked for. 25u doses. But the top of the black rubber part of plunger is about .25u thick, so it's eyeball-able.

You might tell Claire that old Spike doesn't like his ear pokes, but after about 3-4 days, he's learned that he gets some loving and either his wet food or a treat afterwards, so he has incorporated coming to where we test to his begging routine now. And tell her that we can do this for our babies.♡
 
186 @+3, 186 @+6. He's staying in the blue range and I'm think that @FrostD made the correct on-the-fly dosing call and the time change is a tough circumstance also.. I'm certainly comfortable with it and Spike seems to be totally fine also. The boy STAYS hungry and has his whole life.♡ I'll test again in an hour.
 
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