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Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by cheisler, May 27, 2020.

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  1. cheisler

    cheisler New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2020
    Hello,
    I'm am new to this site and need help with dosing.
    My cats name is Milo. He is 11 years old. I have been giving him insulin for awhile now, but only recently started testing. His diabetic symptoms have not changed in months. Peeing an extreme amount.
    Any help would greatly be appreciated.
    Chantal Heisler
    p.s. I am hoping my spreadsheet I did is accessible to anyone viewing my message.
     
  2. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    WELCOME TO FDMB! We re glad you found us. Good job on the spread sheet! I cannot give dosing advice but there are plenty of prozinc users here who can. May I suggest you set up your signature? you can find how to do that here:
    Suggestions, Tech Support & Testing Area
    Here is our prozinc forum:
    Prozinc / PZI

    I just wanted to say hello and welcome to the best darn site to help you help and understand Milos diabetes.
    jeanne

     
    Deb & Wink and Nan & Amber (GA) like this.
  3. Nan & Amber (GA)

    Nan & Amber (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    I can see your spreadsheet, well done!

    Well done on testing, too. I will leave any detailed interpretations to the ProZinc people, but some initial observations looking at your numbers:

    1) numbers are higher than normal BG, but not completely out-of-control for a diabetic cat, and really just barely above the typical renal threshold. So I'm surprised that Milo is still peeing uncontrollably...

    2) 3U is a sizable dose. Did you work your way up to that dose, and how long did it take you? We tend to find that vets often prescribe higher than needed doses (a good starting dose for most cats is around 1U), and then increase quickly in large jumps of 1U (we usually increase/decrease by only 0.25U at a time).

    3) It would be really helpful to get more between-shots tests. We like to calibrate doses to the nadir, the lowest point a shot can take a cat. It's hard to know when that will be, but sprinking tests at different times on different days, you can start to get an idea of when the lowest point will be and focus testing around there. It's especially helpful to test at night, as many kitties go lower at night.

    One more question for info to put in your signature, are you using a pet BG meter (such as the AlphaTrak 2) or a human BG meter? That will make a difference for interpreting numbers, especially at the low end.

    Finally: welcome to FDMB!!!!
     
  4. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Welcome!!

    Thanks for doing your signature and the ss. I can see it and it looks great! :bighug:

    I’m no prozync expert so tagging @Deb & Wink who knows way more than me, but I did notice a few things. The 193 pre shot number yesterday was on the lower side and when you get a number like that, it’s smart to test at +2 to see where the BG level is headed for the night. If you could do a little more tests during the day, that would also be helpful so we have more data. I think prozync acts faster than Lantus so maybe a +2,+4,+6. With the little data I see on 5/20, 5/25 and 5/26, I have a feeling he may have dropped too low overnight and bounced the next day/cycle which is why the numbers are sorta stable. Can you do a few more day tests today and at least a +2 at night?

    oh, would you mind adding the insulin, diabetes diagnose date, food and any other meds Milo may be on to your signature? Thanks!

    welcome again!! :)
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  5. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    I agree with Nan, the numbers are pretty good and and not too high at all! :cat:
     
  6. cheisler

    cheisler New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2020
    Thanks all. I will add more information to my signature, as well as test a couple of times this afternoon, and later tonight. Milo worked his way up on Prozinc. Started at 1 unit, then increased each week by 1 unit. He's been on 3 units for over a month now, with still no change. To be noted, when first diagnosed in January we started him with Prozinc 1 unit. About a month later I switched to Vetsulin (for financial reasons) and started him at 1 unit again. After reading up on Vetsulin, I was worried it wasn't the best insulin so switched back to Prozinc around 1st of May (again, starting him at 1 unit and increasing each week). Just figured out a way to pay for this more expensive insulin.
     
  7. cheisler

    cheisler New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2020
    I am using a Relion Prime Meter. Is that considered a human BG Meter? And if so, does that mean his numbers are actually higher?
     
  8. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Yes it’s considered a human meter and it’s what I use. And no, the opposite actually. His numbers would be lower on a pet meter
     
  9. Aleluia Grugru & Minnie

    Aleluia Grugru & Minnie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2019
    Increasing 1 unit a week is quite a lot. We recommend increasing or decreasing at .25 increments and not quite so fast. You may miss the ideal dose when you go by full units. Even more important to get those additional tests when you increase by that much that fast. I think you’ll end up decreasing him. Have you taken a look at the prozync forum as well?
     
  10. cheisler

    cheisler New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2020
    Not yet. I will check out the Prozinc forum. I had increased by full unit per vet. Didn't question as Milo's symptoms have not changed at all since the very beginning. He is still peeing a ton.
     
  11. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    thats why we increase by small amounts. Too much insulin, can have the same effect on numbers, as too little insulin. It can get tricky by backtracking.
     
  12. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    It's the other way around Ale. Human meters give lower BG numbers. Pet meters give higher numbers. The numbers get closer together with the meters as you drop lower in the BG levels. There is not chart of comparison between the 2 meter types.

    Simply go with the meter you are using, the human meter, the Relion Prime.

    You should be able to use your bottle of Prozinc for several months. You do NOT need to throw it out after a set number of days, despite what the manufacturer says. Keep it in the fridge, to make it last longer.

    Please read the dosing protocols in our Prozinc ISG forum. We base dose changes on the nadir or lowest point that the insulin brings your cat. Pre-shot tests simply let you know that your cat's BG is high enough to give insulin in the first place.

    Then you need to vary the test times, to find when YOUR cat's onset, nadir and duration are for the insulin you are using.

    p.s. Chewy.com usually has good prices on the Prozinc insulin. Your vet will need to send them a prescription, once you place an order with them. Plan ahead. They are really backed up on shipping.
     
  13. Liang & Nathan

    Liang & Nathan Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    I am also a new member. By just looking the numbers, the pre-shot numbers range 190-250. To me 3u is too much for these pre-shot numbers.

    Correct me if I am wrong.
     
  14. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Without seeing some more mid-cycle test numbers, it's impossible to tell if 3U is too much for Milo. Or too little.
    It's the mid-cycle numbers that determine if the dose is a good one for a particular cat.
    The pre-shot numbers simply tell you if your cat's BG levels are high enough to give insulin.

    ECID Every Cat is Different.
    What may be too much or too little insulin for one cat, may be just right for another cat.
    You test to find out what YOUR cat is doing on a particular dose of insulin.
    "Know Thy Cat."

    We don't dose ANY insulin on the pre-shot tests alone. The pre-shot tests come into consideration, but they do not have as much weight as the nadir. Not even for Prozinc. The amount of test data you have is also an important factor in determining the dose and if your cat has had ketones or DKA, then some of the insulin dose needs to be given, even on lower numbers.

    I'm not seeing enough test data for Milo, to know if he is dropping low at some point in the cycle on the 3U dose. No greens or low blues seen. Need to see a bit more test data, but if anything, right now the 3U dose does not look like enough insulin for Milo.

    Look at the dosing protocols for more information.
     
  15. Liang & Nathan

    Liang & Nathan Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Thank you. Learned new thing.

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/low-pmps-reading-shoot-or-no-shoot.230150/

    Would you please take a look at my post and Nathan's data, and give me some advice?

    Thank you very much.
     
  16. cheisler

    cheisler New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2020
    Thank you! I have been frustrated for so long. I’m trying to understand all of this and how to adjust. He’s been peeing a tremendous amount for months now. Really worried that I have even come close in managing this. I will test more this weekend, at various times. Hope that will help if getting a better idea about changes to make
     
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