Opie and MPM

LovingOpie

LovingOpie

Active Member
This is a continuation of Opie and using MPM protocol. The link to previous threads on Opie is here https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...o-get-numbers-down.278095/page-2#post-3078584

Today Opie is high due to a night in the healing green numbers which he bounced out of and is now working on normalizing. Higher numbers gives me a bit of a break from all the testing I had to do and I am sure he appreciates that though he is still being stubborn on the food issue.
 
He has gone from Red, to pink, to yellow, partially because he did not eat but also I think the bounce is working it's way out. I must thank you for the suggestion of using Pure Bites Freeze Dried Chicken on top of his food because I just tried it and he went to it immediately and ate. Thank you!!!
 
I have a question about food. When I look at the Pierson chart I find foods that she lists as low carb but when I put them into the carb calculator I find that although the food is low WET matter basis, it comes out much higher on a DRY matter basis. I usually try to find a food that comes out low on both accounts but does it matter? Is the WET matter basis what we go by because it is wet food?
carb calculator is here https://www.caticles.com/carb-calculator-for-cat-food/
 
LovingOpie said:
I have a question about food. When I look at the Pierson chart I find foods that she lists as low carb but when I put them into the carb calculator I find that although the food is low WET matter basis, it comes out much higher on a DRY matter basis. I usually try to find a food that comes out low on both accounts but does it matter? Is the WET matter basis what we go by because it is wet food?
carb calculator is here https://www.caticles.com/carb-calculator-for-cat-food/
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Here is the food chart I use but it is geared toward low phosphorus and low carbs (because low phosphorus is easier on the kidneys): https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/Combined_Food_Lists_Feeding_Guide.pdf
That list has several different lists attached to it. The Diabetic CKD list is good. There’s an all Weruva list too for their foods.
@Diane Tyler's Mom can you help here? I can maybe add more info tomorrow, but right now I’m fried and don’t feel well. You can add a lot of useful information about food.
 
When the BG rises after giving insulin is this a bounce or too much insulin? I know you told me before but say it again please?
 
another question. . . It was brought to my attention that with MPM you must have your cat on wet food. What is the reason for this? I just found a dry food by Dr. Elsey that is very low carb. Why would this differ from a low carb wet food as long as the carbs are low enough? Please explain.
 
LovingOpie said:
When the BG rises after giving insulin is this a bounce or too much insulin? I know you told me before but say it again please?
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Usually, if it’s just a temporary rose after eating then it’s just what we call a food bump. The BG should come back down. If it goes up and stays up then it may be a bounce.
 
LovingOpie said:
another question. . . It was brought to my attention that with MPM you must have your cat on wet food. What is the reason for this? I just found a dry food by Dr. Elsey that is very low carb. Why would this differ from a low carb wet food as long as the carbs are low enough? Please explain.
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I used to give the occasional Dr. Elsey’s clean protein chicken kibble to my cat, but only a couple of pieces as a treat and not as a meal and not every day.

At the end, I had to feed him whatever he liked to eat.
 
LovingOpie said:
I have a question about food. When I look at the Pierson chart I find foods that she lists as low carb but when I put them into the carb calculator I find that although the food is low WET matter basis, it comes out much higher on a DRY matter basis. I usually try to find a food that comes out low on both accounts but does it matter? Is the WET matter basis what we go by because it is wet food?
carb calculator is here https://www.caticles.com/carb-calculator-for-cat-food/
Click to expand...
First, I would never use that calculator to calculate % calories from carbs. It uses guaranteed analysis (GA) which means there is a range of the macronutrients (fats, carbs, proteins). Here is a long, but informative post I did on calculating % calories carbs. On this page, under Q2, there is an Excel SS linked that is the best % calories from carbs calculator.

Second, there is no such thing as a wet food basis :) There is an “as fed” or “as served” which includes moisture and I believe that’s what you must mean and a “dry matter basis”.

Third, the values on Dr. Lisa’s chart have already been converted to % calories from carbs so you can’t use those numbers to plug into a calculator.

The way dry food is formulated, it is made to be addictive to cats so that’s why it’s often difficult to transition them to a canned food. But it can be done (I’ve had to do it :)). If you haven’t read Dr. Lisa’s post on why NO dry food is best for cat’s, I’ve linked it so you can read it and she discusses how to transition a cat from dry to wet. Here is another option for transitioning and the one I used for my cat.

The reason why the tight regulation (TR) protocol for Lantus/Levemir/Biosimilar users and the MPM don’t allow any dry food is that, even if the dry food is low carb, it takes longer to bring the BG up from low numbers and it stays in the system longer. Cats are obligate carnivores and in cats fed primarily a meat diet (canned or balanced raw), the carbs often come from carbs the meat when it was alive ate. Yes, there are some canned and raw foods which have blueberries, squash, etc added to them but these are not carbs that stay in the system long. For feeding our diabetic kitties, we want to find the canned or balanced raw LC food which best maintains their BG but, if the BG is low, can bring the BG back up quickly. Dry foods, even LC ones, don’t do this. Keep in mind that some cats, like my own Gracie, did better with wet foods that were in the 6% calories from carbs range. The tendency is to go straight for the 2% foods but that’s not always what best benefits a diabetic cat in working with insulin.

Having said all that, it’s more important for Opie to eat than whether you do MPM. That means if you have to start from scratch and give him the dry food he will eat while you are slowly transitioning him, then you’ll just need to do Start Low Go Slow until he’s eating wet food regularly. This takes time so be patient.

Please let me know if you have other questions.
 
I want to specify that Opie has been transitioned to wet food when he was diagnosed over a year and a half ago. He never liked wet food and in fact when he was a kitten and an outside only cat before we brought him in, he would be starving and cold but would refuse wet food. This being said, he has done well with wet all this time but occasionally he goes on a stubborn rampage and tries to steal dry food from the other cats and only barely nibbles at his food. I only thought of using the LC dry because he is on one of his stubborn times and it has been very difficult to get him to eat. That is the only reason why I mentioned it.
I know where you are coming from on commercial foods and how bad they can be, believe me. Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my questions, it is much appreciated.
 
LovingOpie said:
I want to specify that Opie has been transitioned to wet food when he was diagnosed over a year and a half ago. He never liked wet food and in fact when he was a kitten and an outside only cat before we brought him in, he would be starving and cold but would refuse wet food. This being said, he has done well with wet all this time but occasionally he goes on a stubborn rampage and tries to steal dry food from the other cats and only barely nibbles at his food. I only thought of using the LC dry because he is on one of his stubborn times and it has been very difficult to get him to eat. That is the only reason why I mentioned it.
I know where you are coming from on commercial foods and how bad they can be, believe me. Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my questions, it is much appreciated.
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I applaud you for switching him. That’s great! Sometimes cats do get bored with the same food. Do you think he’d be more apt to eat the canned during a “rampage” and less likely to steal food if you gave him a different canned food option?

Unfortunately, any dry food in the diet precludes using MPM. I understand he only gets dry food occasionally but if there is any chance he’s pilfering some a bit more often without you knowing, it’s even more reason for using SLGS.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Here is the food chart I use but it is geared toward low phosphorus and low carbs (because low phosphorus is easier on the kidneys): https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/Combined_Food_Lists_Feeding_Guide.pdf
That list has several different lists attached to it. The Diabetic CKD list is good. There’s an all Weruva list too for their foods.
@Diane Tyler's Mom can you help here? I can maybe add more info tomorrow, but right now I’m fried and don’t feel well. You can add a lot of useful information about food.
Click to expand...
Sorry just seeing this
You can check out the Weruva Pates BFF Play Pates
https://www.weruva.com/pages/cat-nutritional-information
With weruva foods
You want the metabolizable energy profile percentage of carbs to be less than 10%, and the phosphorus which Weruva lists in Minerals to be less than 250 mg per 100 cals. So you have to look at two different places in the Weruva charts. This is where I was told where to look by a member
@LovingOpie

You can even check out the soulistic pates
https://www.soulisticpet.com/pate
When you click in one of the flavors then click on
COMPLETE NUTRITIONAL INFORMATION (link to page)
and look at the same two places like on the weruva site


BFF PLAY PATES To Make it Easier For You
BFF play chicken Checkmate
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 133%

BFF play chicken & turkey topsy turvy
Protein 32%
Carbs 5.20%
Phosphorus 134%

BFF play chicken cherish
Protein 31%
Carbs 4.90%
Phosphorus 132%

BFF chicken & turkey tiptoe
Protein 31%
Carbs 5.10%
Phosphorus 133%

BFF chicken duck & turkey take a chance
Protein 32%
Carbs 5.20%
Phosphorus 152%

BFF play chicken & lamb laugh out loud
Protein 31%
Carbs 5%
Phosphorus 152%

BFF play chicken & duck destiny
Protein 32%
Carbs 5.10%
Phosphorus 163%

BFF play chicken & beef best buds
Protein 33%
Carbs 5.30%
Phosphorus 175%

Don't know if your kitty likes pate but here is the list of the BFF line.
YOU WANT CARBS UNDER 10% AND PHOSPHORUS IDEALLY LOW 200's OR LESS
 
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Marje and Gracie said:
I applaud you for switching him. That’s great! Sometimes cats do get bored with the same food. Do you think he’d be more apt to eat the canned during a “rampage” and less likely to steal food if you gave him a different canned food option?

Unfortunately, any dry food in the diet precludes using MPM. I understand he only gets dry food occasionally but if there is any chance he’s pilfering some a bit more often without you knowing, it’s even more reason for using SLGS.
Click to expand...

I have tried many different foods and right now I am hoping that it is due to higher numbers and bouncing around. As to stealing. . . I watch very closely and all the food is kept in bowls with tight lids so no one can eat without one of us opening it for them. We have several on special diets , 4 urinary issues and one CKD besides Opie and the diabetes. He just comes around and tries to steal or open the bowls when he gets in these moods. It isn't a problem of huge proportions. I am sorry if I made it seem that way.
 
LovingOpie said:
I want to specify that Opie has been transitioned to wet food when he was diagnosed over a year and a half ago. He never liked wet food and in fact when he was a kitten and an outside only cat before we brought him in, he would be starving and cold but would refuse wet food. This being said, he has done well with wet all this time but occasionally he goes on a stubborn rampage and tries to steal dry food from the other cats and only barely nibbles at his food. I only thought of using the LC dry because he is on one of his stubborn times and it has been very difficult to get him to eat. That is the only reason why I mentioned it.
I know where you are coming from on commercial foods and how bad they can be, believe me. Thank you very much for taking the time to reply to my questions, it is much appreciated.
Click to expand...
I have seen Dr. Lisa Pierson say that sometimes with very stubborn cats that all dry food must be removed from the house. Sorry to say that.
 
it is getting late. . . would 1/2 unit be an idea? March 22nd was before we were following protocol and not the same thing at all.
 
LovingOpie said:
it is getting late. . . would 1/2 unit be an idea? March 22nd was before we were following protocol and not the same thing at all.
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Yes. That is true. If you want to shoot a half dose for tonight— what would you think of that? He has promised continued to rise though since the 146.
 
So I learned today that he shouldn't eat for two hours before the pre shot test, this is something that I do before the AMPS but not before the PMPS. I guess that changes things quite a bit. No one ever specified that before now and my vet always said just to give the shot with food. So it is no food for two hours, test, give food, then shoot. Is this correct then?

It seems strange because he drops low for night and we have been giving food before the test but the morning when we don't give food the two hours before, his numbers don't drop as much. Does this indicate that giving the food before the PM elevates his numbers and he may actually be lower than what we think when we shoot?
 
From the Sticky note on this forum called: New to the Group: The ProZinc basics. Please Start Here.
  • “IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not feed your cat within the two-hour window right before the scheduled dose time; doing this can raise your cat’s blood significantly, giving you a higher BG number based on food. This could result in your giving insulin when you should not, or giving more insulin than you should.”
 
LovingOpie said:
It seems strange because he drops low for night and we have been giving food before the test but the morning when we don't give food the two hours before, his numbers don't drop as much.
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This is a common thing with cats. Many many cats, for some reason, drop lower at night.
 
LovingOpie said:
As to stealing. . . I watch very closely and all the food is kept in bowls with tight lids so no one can eat without one of us opening it for them.
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LovingOpie said:
He just comes around and tries to steal or open the bowls when he gets in these moods.
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Does he have wet available at all times? What's his BG like when he does this? Any chance his BG is low or dropping fast when this happens - many cats seek out food when the BG is dropping. I've read about some getting pretty aggressive and/or resourceful to get at food when they need it!
 
LovingOpie said:
we will give the .75 i guess. . . . thanks
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If you stall, you should shoot the full dose, not a half dose. The reason is because stalling gets him past the 12 hour duration of the insulin and the BG continues up. He was already up quite a bit at +13 and he continued up. He then wobbled a little bit and now he’s bouncing.

If this happens again in the future where you need to stall, please consider shooting a full dose.

Having said that, stalling is more for you than the cat :) if BGs are in the safe range to shoot, which they easily were, and you will be there to monitor, which you were. Even if you were uneasy at +12, the BG at +12.5 was on the way up and that should have made you feel fine about shooting a full dose.

Please note this is not a criticism of the way it was handled. There is always that first time of feeling a little uneasy with BGs like that and since you don’t have a lot of data (even looking back at 2021-2022) on shooting these types of numbers, it can cause a little wariness. But the best thing for Opie, who is a long-term diabetic, is shooting on time with the current, safe dose as long as the BG is at a safe number to shoot, you have supplies, you can be there to monitor him.
 
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Marje and Gracie said:
If you stall, you should shoot the full dose, not a half dose. The reason is because stalling gets him past the 12 hour duration of the insulin and the BG continues up. He was already up quite a bit at +13 and he continued up. He then wobbled a little bit and now he’s bouncing.

If this happens again in the future where you need to stall, please consider shooting a full dose.

Having said that, stalling is more for you than the cat :) if BGs are in the safe range to shoot, which they easily were, and you will be there to monitor, which you were. Even if you were uneasy at +12, the BG at +12.5 was on the way up and that should have made you feel fine about shooting a full dose.

Please note this is not a criticism of the way it was handled. There is always that first time of feeling a little uneasy with BGs like that and since you don’t have a lot of data (even looking back at 2021-2022) on shooting these types of numbers, it can cause a little wariness. But the best thing for Opie, who is a long-term diabetic, is shooting on time with the current, safe dose as long as the BG is at a safe number to shoot, you have supplies, you can be there to monitor him.
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Thank you for that information. I am always loathe to give less insulin because I know it will not be enough and his BG will rise up high. It is a scary situation and I thank you for your support.
 
Shelley & Jess said:
Does he have wet available at all times? What's his BG like when he does this? Any chance his BG is low or dropping fast when this happens - many cats seek out food when the BG is dropping. I've read about some getting pretty aggressive and/or resourceful to get at food when they need it!
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Food is not out and available but if he asks I give it to him and if he doesn't ask, I also give it to him all day long. He is never wanting for food. He does this either way, high or low.
 
You must be really exhausted after last night. See how he doesn’t get much of a food bump from LC, especially when the insulin is at its peak. He went from 88 to 67 after eating the LC. Next time you might want to try feeding MC and then you may be able to avoid the karo. Also, MC could be tried at 67. If you can avoid giving karo or HC then you don’t have to follow the “keep testing for two hours after the last karo or HC food is given” rule. See how he dropped back down after the karo started to wear off — just a little bit — and then he started to surf in green. You must be just wiped out.
 
I am worried because he didn't have a curve but kept going down all night. He only now went to 126 and it is time to shoot. Is it still the same dose this morning?
 
LovingOpie said:
I am worried because he didn't have a curve but kept going down all night.
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This can happen when they're breaking a bounce - it started yesterday AM cycle when he started heading down.

LovingOpie said:
He only now went to 126 and it is time to shoot. Is it still the same dose this morning?
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Stall, make sure he's rising and shoot.
The dose will depend on your decided reduction point. Did he earn a reduction last night?

As he gets used to lower numbers the PS will come down.
 
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