Prozinc Fast Acting Hypo

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by jpalmerzt, Mar 9, 2022.

  1. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Hi all,

    I am new to the forum but have a manx cat called Cadbury who diabetic and has been for some time. He's 17 and still very active for his age but last night after opening a new bottle of Prozinc and administering his normal dose he went into a hypo and collapsed with reading 1.6mmol

    We rushed him to the vets as all options of syrup and food were not working. The vet gave an glucose shot and his level shot up to 15.8 and he was able to come home in few hours he collapsed again and was rushed back with him in looking like he was fitting, I was in bits and another shot was given but it looked the worst and he was gonna die.

    I nearly gave the decision to have him put down as it looked like nothing was working and he was suffering. In moments before we were going to he came around and began responding. He's currently in intensive cat care and being looked after.

    On front without point fingers, this appeared to since I gave the shot from the brand new vial given the circumstance and that he's been on it for so long with no real major problems and was fine on the earlier bottle which had just finished.

    I am mortified and traumatised by the experience I faced and I have been advised he perked up but his levels are a little unstable so they have kept him in on with all the necessities he needs.

    Ultimately what I am trying to understand is if anyone else has ever experiences and issue like this with Prozinc or other insulin and can they been a dogdy vile or batch and or is theis likely caused by something else?

    Any advise would be greatly appreciated right now.
     
  2. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    I am sorry you had to go through this! But no, new vial usually not the issue.

    Do you test BG at home? What's his diet? Any recent changes? How have you been deciding to raise/lower the dose? What's current dose?

    More than likely, if you're not testing BG at home, he has been overdosed for quite some time. Cats have a sort of natural defense mechanism to dump stored glycogen and counter regulatory hormones into the blood stream if they drop too fast and/or too low. It's possible that (a) his body has been doing that a long time with an overdose and it finally couldn't anymore, or (b) this shot just happened to act faster and harder (but it still means he's been overdosed). It could have been just more potent enough to put him in danger territory, but if the dose was right/safe/good to begin with it should not have taken him that low
     
  3. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Morning,

    Thank your for replying.

    He is tested at a home where needed or suspecting something is off. But that said I have done curve testing throughout then nights every 2 hours on occasions. He's on purina pro pouches and has 1 pouch with 20grams of biscuits every morning and evening with 3units of insulin.

    He's come home luckily and thankful but he's levels have remained stable and continued up rather than plummeting. The vet did run blood diagnostics and he's identified the following markers:

    Anaemia
    Possible Kidney Disease
    Pancreatitis

    However, he said that cat has had pancreatitis before and it settled down and has not directly been an issue. Anaemia is due to weight loss as he's old and with complex diabetes this can be a problem additionally with kidney disease which they are suspecting. He said cadburys not presenting sign of the disease which means it could be acute and early days but the main plan for now is that because he's very bright and still very active we are to focus on the diabetes control and maintain that as best possible hopefully this will settle down other issues and we can see about maybe adjusting his diet and so on.

    But main priority is getting his level correct and stable and then see how we can progress for addressing other things where possible but there is direct fix due to his age.

    The vet did say that it could be possible the vile is the problem but he cannot be certain. The other option could be that Cadbury had a build up which can also happen in these situations or in other situations the pancreas wakes up and starts pushing through insulin which is another possible outcome.

    More nervous than ever watching him throughout the night with cuddles and strokes he's levels have remain upward as apposed to plummeting which is good. He's been spot checked every hour or so which shows his levels going up which is what the vet wanted to see and with that he's had this breakfast and 3 units as directed by the vet with now close monitoring to how he reacts and spot checked to ensure everything is going ok.
     
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  4. Lmiller86

    Lmiller86 Member

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    Dec 24, 2021
    My hear aches for you in this situation! Wishing you the best!
     
  5. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    I am glad he is home!

    I am going to tag @Diane Tyler's Mom - Diane, if you have a moment, can you post the usual links about diet, testing, hypo kits, ketones please? If not no worries, I'll get to it later this evening.

    So the reason his levels are going up is probably because they treated with fast acting insulin and some other more advanced techniques, and now that's all worn off. You don't exactly want the numbers going up, you want the numbers starting higher at the time you give the shot, slowly going down til it reaches a low point (ideally around 5mmol or 90mg/dL), then slowly rising back up as it wears off. 90-150 is the target range while on dry or non-low carb diet.

    Is there any chance you can get him on an all wet low carb diet? The dry food is very high in carbs, and makes BG unpredictable. I will check the purina carbs later. But do not make any diet changes right now, as we have no idea if the dose is right, how low he's going, etc.

    Can you share the lab results? I am curious why he thinks kidney disease.
     
  6. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Diet here is a list of wet foods we like to stay around 5% and under for the carbs
    As Melissa said DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES NOW
    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/dr-pierson-new-food-chart.174147/

    Testing
    You need to be testing pre shots both day and night and multiple times during each 12 hour cycles.

    This link has info about the hypo kit and more such as setting up your signature and Spreadsheet. If you need help with this just ask we have a member who will help you with this
    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-how-you-can-help-us-help-you.216696/

    Ketones
    https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...and-diabetic-cats-a-primer-on-ketones.239971/

    You can buy Ketostix to test for ketones
    If you noticed, our members have some basic information about their cat's in their signature. This helps us to not pester you by asking the same questions (your cat's name, insulin type, date of diagnosis, etc.) repeatedly. We also have a link to our spreadsheet in our signature. We are very numbers driven. The spreadsheet is a record of your cat's progress. By linking it in your signature, we can follow along and provide feedback should you need the help.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2022
  7. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Hello sorry for the delay in responding, I am also trying to get my head around this site and it won't let me upload stating I don't have permission?

    He is on Purina Pro Diabetic Pouches Chicken/Beef and the biscuits are Royal Canin Diabetic ones I know these two are different brands but it was the only thing that I could get to work and with keeping cost down too.

    So last night he came down slowly but there was a big jump in an hour which was worrying, if I was able to upload I could get the reading on here?

    Thank you for the advice it really is nice to know I am not alone and I am still devastated by the events I went through with him the other morning, I am unwell myself at the moment so doing everything possible to ensure he's safe and my first priority.
     
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  8. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    What are you trying to upload? So I know how to help you with it. The upload link has been broken, if you're trying to upload pictures you can drag and drop or copy/paste.

    Or trying to upload our spreadsheet? We publish that to the web and just put the link in our signatures, I'll tag Bhooma @Bandit's Mom to assist.

    Are you feeding the diabetic food because vet recommended it? There really is no need, in fact the royal Canin is too high in carbs. Can you send a link to the pouches? I think that may be too high in carbs as well.

    Where are you located (country)? So I can post the appropriate food list for you. Most of us just feed the basic Friskies or Fancy Feast Pates, much cheaper than the diabetic foods. Again, do not change food right now, we need sufficient rest data to see where he's currently at before starting a diet change, as it can significantly lower numbers and be dangerous
     
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  9. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Hello,

    I was trying to upload the blood result as a file as it has an upload file tab below? However, I have taken screengrabs of them. I am having severe problems today with Cadbury BG dropping massively again and upon advice from the Vets was recommended to lower the dose to 2.5. But there is a concern because despite him going low and then me feeding him and giving him some honey to prop his levels upwards it didn't do much I have attached a screengrab of my recordings for you to see.

    Based on advice from Vets I have used the diabetic cat foods there are here in the UK. I am now currently having problems getting his levels down as there reading Hi all of last night.

    Food -

    https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats...ghN3wafUNH1mFjmgOJZVnyBwmClWz3gBoCA1EQAvD_BwE

    https://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats...7276?origin=hopps&q=royal canin diab&i=1&ro=2
     

    Attached Files:

  10. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    @Suzanne & Darcy thoughts on labs?

    The 8.7 was a very safe nadir, I would not have reduced. We reduce by 0.25U when they go below 5mmol. What happened was yesterday he was bouncing from lower numbers the day before (not dangerously low, his body just isn't used to more normal numbers and panicked), then today he broke the bounce. That usually results in bigger drops down. I suspect he will bounce again, it's very normal at this point
     
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  11. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    @Bandit's Mom UK food list please? I promise I'll save the link this time :oops:

    Also, there is no need to give honey or high carb food at those numbers. We save that for numbers below 50/60, or very steep dives that will result in those numbers if left unchecked
     
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  12. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    Responding now. Had to switch from phone to laptop
     
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  13. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    I am so sorry about your sweet baby and you having to go through this situation.

    Your kitty is quite anemic - not just a little anemic. I believe he needs treatment. What did the vet say about this. It sounds like the vet was just referring to what is known as "anemia of chronic disease," but his hematocrit is very low. Ask the vet at what level it needs to be before they take action (this would be either a blood transfusion and/or treatment with ESAs which are drugs that stimulate the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells. I do see that his Reticulocyte count is high. This means that his body is trying to produce red blood cells - so hopefully, this is a regenerative anemia. I would keep a VERY close eye on this and get in touch with my vet to find out what they plan to do about it. He should not be allowed to remain in this anemic state. I will send this and then follow up on some of my other observations of the blood work.
     
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  14. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    Regarding the kidney values, they are mixed. Has Cadbury lost weight recently? His creatinine is low and yet his BUN is high, so I am wondering. Yes, his Urea is high, but I am not buying into kidney disease at this point. I would need to see the urine specific gravity - and even that can be influenced by his hydration status. Is he fully hydrated? Next message to come...
     
  15. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Regarding the white cell count. Cadbury may be tending toward an infection somewhere in his body. His overall WBC is borderline high. His neutrophils and monocytes are both high, so his body may be trying to respond to an infection. I would watch this carefully because, combined with high blood glucose, could lead to DKA.

    So, really important: Are you testing for ketones regularly? I imagine that since Cadbury has had several episodes of DKA that you are. this is crucial. I used a blood ketone meter, which will detect ketones in the blood. Ketones in the blood are detectable prior to the time they show up in the urine.
     
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  16. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    Finally, the high osmolality number is commonly caused by DKA, severe dehydration, acute pancreatitis, sepsis, cardiac disease, and a few other unlikely causes like poisoning, etc.
     
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  17. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    Suzanne you are wonderful thank you!!
     
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  18. JL and Chip

    JL and Chip Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    @jpalmerzt How is Cadbury doing?

    A couple of questions:
    1) What blood glucose meter are you using? Is it a human meter or pet meter (the “take action” numbers differ depending on the type of meter as well as where the number occurs in the cycle).

    Important note: many glucometers give artificially high values when the cat is anemic, meaning Cadbury’s BG might actually be lower than you’re aware. Please monitor closely and be careful with your dosing while anemia is a factor.

    2) Is Cadbury still eating dry food (biscuits)?
    Dry food tends to be higher carb, so removing it (or Cadbury suddenly deciding not to eat it) can cause blood glucose (BG) values to drop. Also, feeding dry food impacts the dosing method and when you would reduce the insulin dose.

    3) Did you happen to recently get new/different syringes?

    4) Do you roll the vial of Prozinc before drawing up the dose?

    5) How old was the last vial of Prozinc and how did you store it? How many vials have you been through so far?

    6) How long has Cadbury been anemic (if you know)?

    I was always careful to monitor and test a bit extra when changing to a new vial, but rarely saw much of a difference. However, we went through Prozinc quickly. It’s possible your old insulin lost some of its efficacy, but there are also quite a few other potential variables at play.

    Looking forward to an update.
     
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  19. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Hi all,

    Thanks for the messages im sorry I am a bit late in replying I have been having a real tough time with this the past few days. Hes levels have been sporadic and bouncing very low so vets have agreed to change him to 2, not 2.5 as originally suggested as his levels continued to go down but unless he eats something I have given they don't go up much unless of course in situations like early this morning he read 4.7mmol which sparked me to give him some food and some honey to prop them back up. I am today testing him every hour for 12 hours where I can get a curve with the new reader.

    I suffer from PTSD, depression and anxiety and the incident at the vets has really triggered me which is why I am so paranoid. Cadbury's my rock and always has been I've done absolutely everything in my power to keep him and look after him but it's starting to look like really bad adversity is heading.

    I lost my mother in Feb 2020 to Cancer, was nearly evicted because of her passing, lost my other kitty biscuit to renal failure, lost my career in Sept 2021 due to ill health and the list goes on its horrible but all I want is Cadbury to be ok. I am truly destroyed by what happened at the Vets seeing him seizing and on death, doors were the worst.

    The vets have not said much in terms of the other conditions as yet because they are mainly focused on his diabetes control. It has been mentioned about putting him through more blood in a week or two times to see if anything has changed. I'm stuck because I've spent 1000s out and managing him now on benefits due to ill health but I go without sometimes to ensure he's got what he needs. If I had an option to swap places I would in a second.

    I am giving him biscuits still with his pouch and he does eat them sometimes he doesn't want to eat them all but after a short time he goes back, there have been occasions where he doesn't want them but that is not always the case just occasions. In events of hypo, I was advised to give normal cat food and rub honey on the gums if unable to do that and he can eat put some with his food. The vets did say that 8.7 is not concerning but keep eye on the situation as he's dropping it appears the insulin is going down too quickly hence the change in does.

    I use a human reader to test his glucose called Ex Active EQ Impulse as the strips are cheaper and easier to use and I can get these quicker on order. I have got another one of these as recently his numbers were different 4 times in 15 mins.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08G88Y3WN/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    Syringes are the same ones I've ordered -

    https://ukmedi.co.uk/sol-vet-0-3ml-29g-0-5-inch-u40-syringe-with-fixed-needle/?sku=V32905-40-10&dfw_tracker=97924-405-0000&wi=%3Doff&gclid=Cj0KCQiAnaeNBhCUARIsABEee8UYgQV226Xgkno6qlQ0Ya4ZxnW2USjxda4xGsDMGhlYhnu8oAFaCoUaAgzBEALw_wcB

    I do gently alternate the vile as you can see the difference where it settled and this is what I was taught by the vet. He's been through many vile of Prozinc ordered through Pets Drugs online via prescription as it's cheaper than buying from the vet and I also buy his food from the same place. This is stored in the fridge the same as the other ones have been.

    In terms of his anaemia, that's a recent thing that I am aware of but he has lost weight, then gained some and then lost some but it's up and down but not massively.

    I did a urine test strip this morning and the results are as follows:

    Leukocytes - +++500
    Nitrite - Negative
    Urobilinogen - 0.1
    Protein - 5
    blood/sang - +++200
    S.G - 1.025
    Ketone - Negative
    Billrubun - Negative
    Glucose - ++++2000
     
  20. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Hey, I could do with some urgent advice please, I took cadbury to the Vets this morning our normal day to day and there advice was to put him to sleep despite me wanting to try options. The reason for taking him was the glucose because he's dropped massively again and its concerning as he was 3.3mmol this morning at 9am. He also dropped during the night again to the point if left it would go to danger zone so he was given two pouches of normal cat food with honey but he's dropped again to that level at 9am even with food and honey.

    The dispute with the Vets is that Cadburys anaemia is the main concern but it hasn't dropped since his last instay last week. It's at 17% today is what they said, he's also got large intestine which is concerning but he's poo is normalish soft but not runny.

    They've given him a B12 anyway and I've taken him home and they've said in terms of glucose 1 unit as they would rather him high than low and I've now got a blood ketone kit today.

    I need advice on what I can do but they did mention "speculation" on autoimmune problem as his cells are looking like there being attacked.

    I am at a stalemate with this and despite these issues he's running around still and climbing on top of fridges etc up to his normal naughty tricks to find things to brake into. He's was licking himself and up wondering around the surgery and I just can't put him down when I see him normal.
     
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  21. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    I don't know enough about the other challenges he has, but I base those decisions on quality of life. I treat what I can (financially, physically, etc), and just let the pet give me the cues. If he's running around, jumping, playing, I'd say it's not yet time to put him down
     
  22. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    I would say don’t put the cat down when he hasn’t even had a fair chance to get regulated yet! He is on a crappy insulin that’s no good for cats. You don’t have a spreadsheet so I cant see what’s going on. 3.3 (59) is not dangerous on a human meter. What kind of meter was that reading taken on. I certainly would feed him if he was at 59 and monitor him closely via testing, but to put him down due to diabetes is ridiculous. He seems to have other problems. Is the anemia being treated? What/where are his labs/bloodwork? What is the cause of the anemia? What other problems does he have, if any? How is he acting? I’m sorry that the vet is suggesting this. Why don’t they let you make up your own mind.
     
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  23. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    You are right!

    As to autoimmune antibodies to insulin. There is a blood test for that. We don’t “speculate.” And they should not be speculating. We have members of this Board whose cats do have what is called IAA Insulin Auto Antibodies.

    If his HCT is at 17% they should be taking action and B-12 (while a great and important vitamin) isn’t going to cut it. I can’t believe they didn’t discuss with you the possibility of starting him on ESA treatment. This is Erythropoietin Stimulating Agent which is an injection to help the cat produce more red blood cells. I have used this in my cats and it is very effective. Now this would be for a cat with non-regenerative anemia. What medications does he take? Does he have Chronic Kidney Disease?

    At least get him on a B-Complex supplement that you can make yourself from a human B-Complex capsule by dividing the contents into smaller gelatin capsules. This can help, but something should have been done prior to him hitting an HCT of 17. The very good news is that he’s still enjoying life from the sound of things :)
     
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  24. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    I think you seem to be doing an admirable job of testing and trying to keep Cadbury safe! There are people here who can help you get a spreadsheet set up in a jiffy (if you need them to.).
     
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  25. Lmiller86

    Lmiller86 Member

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    Dec 24, 2021
    Wishing you the best!
     
  26. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    I don't know much about anything Suzanne said, but I can tell you she has a wealth of knowledge - I'd trust whatever recommendations and thoughts she has for my own cat in a heartbeat.
     
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  27. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    It’s just that I really feel for you and your kitty. I feel like your vet isn’t really trying to help much because they’ve kind of written Cadbury off. Or perhaps they just aren’t familiar with things that Cadbury may need to help him. But you know Cadbury best and say that he’s jumping and playing. He’s got heart! It’s surprising he’s not lethargic with an HCT of 17. I don’t like to see it that low because it’s too close to reaching a critical point where a transfusion would be warranted. I don’t know if you have any other options for vets? I looked at Cadbury’s photo. He’s adorable. How is his appetite? He does seem underweight. Wishing you all the best…
     
  28. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Sorry for the late response.

    I was really unhappy with the visit to the first vet. Oh, and they commented putting cadbury on steroids wouldn't work with dibetes which I find hard to accept. I am steering clear from these for now as they clearly believe in putting animals to sleep is proportionate as opposed to giving them a chance.

    I spoke to another vet who we go to for Cadbury in emergencies and they also run daytime too. These have been superb in his treatment when needed (Called Medivet). I had a long hour call with them and they agreed that we should give Cadbury a chance and try some other things. I have discussed these tablets for supplements that are arriving today which have really positive reviews. His dosage has been dropped to one unit to see how his glucose goes and if it plummets still hopefully this might break the bouncing we are seeing too. If not then it was suggested we feed him 3x a day to level this out to keep it up. He does seem a bit better since having the B12 shot and within hours he was breaking into my bin on 2 occasions and trying to score some crisps by ripping a bag open (he didn't get any I was too fast). So that really speaks for itself that he's normal cat behaviour and he was also climbing up on top of the fridge. The other change is that he's actually put on weight!

    Hes eating and drinking, grooming himself which are all positive signs and still runs up and down the stairs sometimes too fast!

    I will continue to help him as best as I can and where I can financially. I also noticed the new meter I brought for ketone testing also does his anaemia levels and glucose which is really good. I will link both new items below for you to see.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B077Q3SQZZ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B079X24QNF/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
     
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  29. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    Update -

    Cadbury has been fine all day however his 1 unit this morning with him being 'HI" on reading he's gradually come down and down but continued slowly down throughout the day to about now and he's 6.6 and 3.3 on both readers so as its close to feed I have fed him normal whiskers as it seems to me the diabetic food is not pulling him up. The good thing is he's not plummeting but still heading downwards continually.

    Has anyone ever had this problem?
     
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  30. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    You’re getting that big of a difference between the two glucose meters? Is that what you are saying?
     
  31. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    Both devices gave two different readings and the new one reads Hematocrit which states 11% after this morning it was 17% . I just can't get my head around it all and without spending thousands more to get ultrasounds and other checks done I am stuck.

    Glucose is dropping slowly on 1 unit but normally should start to peak again but its not. I am getting the impression something more serious is ongoing or his diet is not helping at all. I am so worried about this and I though midday we were getting somewhere because his levels are were not storming downwards a rapid knots.

    I've given him the B12 tab powder tonights but just concerned overall. He's seems ok but you never really know what's going on. He had the B12 shot yesterday and id hope his levels would remain or go up a little but if there dropping this doesn't make sense as they've not changed in a week so why the sudden drop.

    If I am honest these all seem to point to pancreatitis which he's had before but its settled down. I just want to be able to do something that will work for him best.
     
  32. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    The insulin that you are using normally hits very hard, drives down BG and then wears off quickly and the cat skyrockets back up.

    I question the accuracy of the HCT meter since you say he was at 17 percent this morning and now at 11? About the only thing that I can think of that would ever cause a cat’s hematocrit to drop that much so quickly would be hemorrhage. And Cadbury seems pretty spry. If he were really at 11% you would notice it in his demeanor. I’m confused.
     
  33. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
  34. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    What are the percentages of carbs you have been feeding? You are worried because his BG is not coming up enough?
    @tiffmaxee @FrostD who else is around?
     
  35. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    So this morning he was given 20g Royal Canin Diabetic Biscuits and 1 Pouch of Purina Pro Diabetic Wet and this hes been on for ages near the start of his diabetic journey and was recommended by the Vets. After reading a lot online it appears not to have been wise to listen to "marketing led" food products.

    Tonight hes a had normal whiskers wet food that's it. I have some fresh chicken I can cook if that's any good but I think im more on the side of trying to feed him something that ups his cell levels for anaemia.

    I agree that his behaviour doesn't seem to add with 11%.
     
  36. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Have just rechecked him on the new device I think its defective it read his level are 11.2 and his HTC is 5% now. I don't think I am going to rely on this system and send it back. It's also different to the other one for glucose which I know is correct.
     
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  37. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    Yes. Something is not right with that meter. I’m sorry about that because it would be a fantastic tool if it worked. And you are right about those diabetic foods! They’re not really good for diabetics - too high in carbs. So when those carbs wear off he’s plummeting down - that could be it - and combine that with the caninsulin that he’s on, which also is a volatile insulin in cats and you may have a “perfect storm” setup. So first order or business would be to get him on all low carb food and monitor carefully. I have seen dramatic changes in cats whose diets are changed to low carb. Save the higher carb foods for when you absolutely need to bring up the BG. It sounds like you are already all over this too!
     
  38. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Is there a list for UK food I did remember FrostD mention is earlier in the thread?

    He's on Prozinc at present but was at then first beginning of his diabetes on Caninsulin but he was moved onto the other one because it was more effective.
     
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  39. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    Good to hear
     
  40. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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  41. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    Ah Bhooma @Bandit's Mom must not have got the tag initially
     
  42. Bandit's Mom

    Bandit's Mom Well-Known Member

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  43. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    Thank you all!

    So far his glucose seems to be levelling out which is very good and I hope this continues. Hes now on Cobalamin tabs which I sprinkle over his food for his B12. Taking it day by day at the moment keeping close eyes on his levels and I have seen an improvement in him since too. This site contains a lot of good advice and information which I have been reading which has greatly helped me in knowing other options, and I will review his food options once more controlled as there is loads of options there that are handy to know. Ive uploaded some more pictures of him and my mother's other two which I took on when she sadly passed away in 2020.
     

    Attached Files:

  44. Lmiller86

    Lmiller86 Member

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    Dec 24, 2021
    Glad for the improvements! He is such a cutie!
     
  45. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    Hi All,

    Sorry I haven't been in touch recently. I took Cadbury to the Vets the one we've moved to who we use in Emergency which is now our regular one. Cadbury had a full check over and so far no concerns by physical examination other than he could do with more weight which I am trying to work on amongst other things.

    PVC anaemia test was done and he's gone from 17% to 21% which is good news so far and shows those tabs I got are working finger crossed. We're trying to get it over 25% which is the aim now.

    Last night I took a leap and decided to adjust his diet as we are seeing the same issues with insulin dropping still and not bumping enough back up in time for next dosing. I spoke in depth with the vet about this and agreed to do (diabetic pouch with gourmet gold tin together) which worked so far from last night till now and it might be the case we see how he goes on this and or move him over to commercial diet full time. I am hoping this will be better for him to gain some weight.

    I am praying these adjustments work and will keep close tabs.

    Just out of curiosity what's peoples cats urination like? Caburys a nightmare but then again he was a little naughty before he was diabetic.
     
  46. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    Glad to hear about the improvements!

    Urination, ugh. I don't see a spreadsheet, and you haven't mentioned many specific BG numbers , but if I had to guess he's still mostly unregulated and above renal threshold most of the time (the point at which glucose spills over into urine, for most cats that's somewhere between 200-300 but all cats are different). My cat always had inappropriate urination when unregulated, we actually had to resort to putting him in a room with a concrete floor and walls for awhile. It can also just be generally behavioral too - they feel like crap, whether due to diabetes or something else, and just go wherever. Thankfully my cat still attempts to go in the box when he isn't feeling well, but he won't cover his poop. Go figure
     
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  47. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Hi All,

    Cadburys 18 today!!!!

    Rough night again at the Vets though sadly :( worried for Cadbury!! Surprisingly the Vet agrees he thought the blood results were going to come back worse but they didn't thank god!.

    I am attaching all the blood results, he's been given convenia 80mg due to suspected infection.

    Still trying to maintain his glucose with a change over diet as clearly the diabetic one was not working. We have tried him now on Gourmet Gold as this was suggested but not sure it's working with him if I am honest. He's eaten it but threw up very small amounts but he's also bloated due to issues with feeding him more food to maintain his levels. The issue again is the curving of any glucose over 12 hours doesn't always happen so rather than coming down to a point and then going back up its going down down down until in the Danger area before I am having to intervene with either food or honey sometimes earlier because if left throughout the night he would fall in the danger low zone.

    Any advice will be appreciated, thank you.
     

    Attached Files:

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  48. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    Happy birthday Cadbury!

    You may want to scrub the more personal information from that bloodwork you uploaded. Definitely looks like infection, plus anemic which you already know.

    Do they know what kind of infection? I didn't see a urinalysis. Convenia is only good for certain things and we find it is misused a lot.

    Unfortunately without a spreadsheet I can't really advise on how to fix the BG troubles you're having BUT know that infections really wreak havoc on blood sugar
     
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  49. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    I was quite upset when uploading the document so forgot to redact out information. Its wrong data anyway and not been correctly updated.

    Unfortunately, we are unsure where this infection is and from the Vets perspective he was confident that medication was more worth it than anything else from his experience. Although when at the Vets I was discussing all sort worrying his bloods were going to come back really really bad I forgot to mention Cadburys ear.

    It looked like a small cut from scratching but over a day or too it looked really red and inflamed area and now last night I noticed it on the other ear two?? Possible skin infection maybe if not that the only two others I would think is urine or dental.

    In terms of the BG I am wondering if the infection has caused a lot of this. I think I remember earlier on in the threat Suzanne mentioning infection on Cadburys last bloods. So I am wondering if that's what's caused a lot of this problematic issues.

    Prozinc is a slow long lasting insulin but the other night with 2 tins of food and a bit of chicken on 1 unit he plummeted in massive jumps in a couple of hours so either the infection is bad enough to cause these issues or Prozinc is now not working as its too rapid. Once I get some control over his BG I can do a spreadsheet but at present its impossible to 12 hours because his level jump down to quick and don't seem to be coming back up without help.
     
  50. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    Yes I am leaning that either the dose is too high, and/or ProZinc isn't going to be a suitable insulin for him. Some cats just are that way and benefit from a change to something like Lantus
     
  51. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Update - so it appears from the past couple days that the infection might have actually been one if the bigger issues. Since he was given the antibiotic injection his levels have gone back to how they were and are not massively jumping down and are now responding correctly with it going down and then back up which is perfect!

    It's odd how this seems to have corrected the issue and finger crossed this stay that way. He's being fed normal gourmet gold savoury food (no more diabetic) which he's enjoying a lot more.

    His levels came down to 12.2 at about 6/7 hours in and have now started to rise again which is what I am wanting to see :)

    I did notice before we went to the vets a cut on his ear which became very red and sore and then I notice it on the other ear two so maybe he had an infection that's been underlying and then this issue added cause the results to show but as I said his levels are doing exactly what we want them too for now with the curving and no plummeting!
     
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  52. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    Glad to hear it!
     
  53. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Spoke to soon!

    Now I am getting paranoid as he's now developed a cold and is wheezy . After reading up on that injection antibiotic a lot of people have raised concerns over it and saying is caused severe anaemia.

    Any suggestion on his congestion and wheezy problem. It's goes from one thing to another
     
  54. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2020
    I'm sorry I don't :/ hope you get it figured out soon! Make sure it's not an allergic reaction to it, that's an issue for a lot of cats, and can show up days later
     
  55. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    Took him back to the Vets and it appears he's now got an upper respiratory infection (most probably secondary) they've now given him synulox which he had before and was quite effective for this.

    He's quite stuffy atm and since the administration and me placing him in the bathroom with me and steaming the room he's got some discharge coming out his nose which I am clearing.

    It's just so tough at the moment and he's a little soldier with all these issues. But he's still cuddling, purring, eating and drinking which is good signs and he's up and about just need to get rid of this mucus to ease him up a bit. It's really torn me up emotionally as I can't imagine a world without him, I know that sound absolutely stupid but he's been there for me through horrible dark times and still is so I'll be beside him every possible step as his protector.
     
  56. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    I am wondering how Cadbury is doing. I hope you will post to update us soon! ❤️
     
  57. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    Sadly he's struggling but I am hoping he pulls through, he's been beaten up quite badly by this cold/infection. It's slowly clearing but he's very wobbly but the wheezy/mucus has cleared up quite a bit. His glucose is still all over the place most probably because of the two anti botics.

    I've now been trained how to give him fluids under the skin (Aqupharm No11) SubQ. Which I have been doing and this seems to have helped a lot with his cold and overall feeling as you can see an improvement. This is common with CKD but in Cadburys case, he's been quite dehydrated and with the cold, he's been struggling to drink although he tries it difficult.

    It's heartbreaking seeing him like this and he's lost some weight again most probably since I changed the food. But I am fighting multiple things trying to resolve them. I've grown up with Cadbury since a young age and he's always been with me through everything and I feel like I am fighting a losing battle.
     
  58. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    I am sorry that he is fighting off this upper respiratory infection. So the vets never decided to give him anything to treat his anemia? Cats with kidney disease often have anemia and need what are called ESAs to help. I think I sent you a page on anemia a while back. I have used both Epogen and Darbepoetin in my cats and they were very effective. As for food, his phosphorus is quite high which also is not unusual in CKD kitties. I think if it were my cat, I would be feeding a renal diet.
     
  59. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    I am glad you are giving fluids. That will help him overall and with the kidneys in particular. How much are you giving and how frequently? Is he eating on his own or are you syringe feeding him. I would supplement with syringe feeding if he’s not taking in enough calories- many cats with URIs won’t eat well — not to mention kidney disease. Hang in there. I hope he will be able to defeat this virus with your care. ❤️
     
  60. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2022
    I took him back a week or so after the initial visit where they said about his anaemia. He was given a B12 shot and then I decided to use B12 supplements which brought his levels up to 21% which was a positive sign. The vet agreed for me to continue on that and put Cadbury back to a commercial diet (I choose Gourmet Gold) so not sure if that any good but he seems to like it.

    The recommendations with fluids was 20-30ml every 6 hours but only if needed or where breathing is heavy reduce to every 8 - 10 hours. I'm trying to give him a break where possible to let him rest so not giving them all the time. He's eating ish with sometime he going wild for food and others he's very slow eating.

    I did upload not so long ago he recent bloods again if you wanted to take a look?
     
  61. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    Is it the bloodwork from March 4 ? I was looking at that set of labs.
     
  62. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    B-complex can help with mild anemia along with the B-12.
     
  63. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    It was the post in this thread on here dated 4th April (Cadburys 18th Birthday) which has the most updated results and should be with two picture of him on his BDay.

    He's only had 1 of B12 shot and since then remained on Protexin Coblaplex Oral Cobalamim B12 Tabs.
     
  64. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    Be careful not to give too much fluid subcutaneously. It sounds like you are being cautious and that is good. Did they check his heart to make sure it is safe to give fluids? Certainly if his breathing is heavy as a result of sub-q fluids that would be a danger signal. Fluid can build up around their lungs which is very dangerous. That’s why I asked about his heart.
     
  65. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    Yes. I was just looking at those labs. Okay. Good to know those are the most recent results.
     
  66. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    They checked his heart rate and said he's ok but the reason he mentioned heavy breathing was because of that (warning me) and he suggest backing off until 8 to 10 hours if that is the case but so far he's been ok. I've not been giving them every 6 hours ideally to give him a break and to ensure he's ok with them.

    It's actually really helped with the respiratory on Cadbury. He always seems to respond well to those fluids.
     
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  67. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2020
    I need to go to sleep now as it is 12:30 am, but I will check in on Cadbury tomorrow.
     
  68. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    How is Cadbury? I will look to see if you posted a new thread today. I did not see one earlier today. Thinking of you.
     
  69. jpalmerzt

    jpalmerzt Member

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    Mar 9, 2022
    I am really really sorry, I am broken to bits and he's been put to sleep, I am devastated
     
  70. Suzanne & Darcy

    Suzanne & Darcy Well-Known Member

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    Jun 4, 2020
    Oh no!! I am so so extremely sorry. I know you are broken to bits; I understand. I wish there was something that could have saved him. You have my deepest sympathy for this tragic loss!
     
  71. Lmiller86

    Lmiller86 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2021
    Cadbury was a beautiful boy and so lucky to have an owner who did as much as you did! I am so sorry for your loss.
     
  72. FrostD

    FrostD Well-Known Member

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    May 27, 2020
    Oh I am so sorry to hear this :bighug: he was so lucky to have you
     
  73. Diane Tyler's Mom

    Diane Tyler's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sep 21, 2018
    I'm so sorry for your loss, Fly high sweet boy ,you will be missed :bighug::bighug::bighug:cat_wings>o:rb_icon:
     
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