Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Critter Mom, Feb 21, 2016.
Sending hugs your way!
The doc prescribed me some tranquilisers and more beta blockers today. I was shaking like a leaf all morning. I'll pay for it later but thankfully the meds are helping right now. My hands are raw from all the OCD handwashing and the number rituals have been almost non-stop for the last number of weeks (which made the exhaustion worse by several orders of magnitude). It would freak me out if I were around Saoirse in the state of distress I was in this morning. The last thing she needs is to be picking up on her mama being panic-stricken.
Thank you, Mary Ann.
I've only ever been able to find the one food that likes her back (Sheba Fine Flakes) and she's even lip licking with that.
It's tough because she wants to eat ... :
Thank you, Jill.
Oh Mogs All my prayers and hugs I'm keeping hope alive here in Chicago for you two
HUGS and hugs and prayers and hugs and more Mogs....
Thank you, MO2F. Much needed.
Here's the relevant post:
The tube's not a viable option now, Linda.
Saoirse did eat a little bit at the vets.
Mogs, it sounds like she has turned the corner, no giving up. Now, remember on the human ketone meter, cat ketones do not even start to show up until 2.4. She is home where she will clam down and start to eat. Here is what Jill sent me when I first started using the human ketone meter (same as yours the Precision Xtra)
Continued prayers and healing vines.
The latest published research/studies in cats indicate ketones will begin to show up at readings of 2.4 and 2.55 on a blood ketone meter:
Measurement of ketones - Weingart_J VET Diagn Invest-2012(1).pdfMeasuring ketones - JSAP_Zeugswetter - 2012.pdf
I knew I had seen something about the feeding tube but totally missed it scanning.
The fact that Saoirse ate at the vet is encouraging. She's a fighter Mogs and she's in her own environment now and should help make her feel better too. Sending anti-nausea thoughts and hunger pangs for Saoirse!
Thank you so much, Carol.
I have a question for you. From your signature I know that Murphy has a lot of the same issues as Saoirse. Saoirse hasn't had her Hepatosyl (similar to Denamarin) since before she had her op and another member posted recently that cyproheptadine needs to be used with caution in cats with liver issues. Did your vet ever give you any advice about the cypro? If Saoirse makes it the cypro might help her if I can get her nausea under control. (It did when she had the bad pancreatitis flare not long after her FD Dx.) After all that has happened, I'm afraid of giving her something that might make matters worse.
PMPS - 14.1 (Alphatrak) / BBK 0.8 - Ate tiny bit of Hill's i/d + some of the gravy / Dose: Skinny 0.25 IU Lantus.
PM+1.75 - 12.5 (Lantus onset at +1.5).
Just after insulin onset at +1.5 Saoirse got up to her dish and ate 1-2 tsp Hill's i/d. She's snoozing now in her playpen. She really likes it; it's so much better than the resting cage; more kitty hotel than penitentiary. I got her some nice thick, fleecy bedding for it. It's big enough for me to climb into so I didn't have to disturb her to check her BG. I ordered a scratching mat to go into it today. It's due to arrive tomorrow. I also ordered one of those squirty yokey-bobs you posted a picture of to see if that might help me to get her to drink a little.
Smokey, Tux, Tripper and I are sending plane load of scritches and hugs to you. With the cone off and being home with you, she will start to come around. It might be slowly but I believe she will. Have you tried the ham baby food?
Here's a thought, do you have a pet water fountain? A lot of cats like the sound of the trickling water.
BTW I just loooove the new accommodations she has. Is it totally enclosed?
Thank you for this, Bobbie, and also for continuing to pray for my girl.
Thank you for praying for my baby, Lyresa. The hugs are very much appreciated, too.
What is the squirty yoke bobs thing you mentioned above? I couldn't find the picture.
She looks fabulous!!!!
Oh is that what they're called? It's worked a charm for me with my furkids!
I am beyond delighted to hear Saorise has taken more food. With all the shuffling she's done lately between home and vet's, it probably takes her awhile to calm down and relax. That can play havoc on a tummy too! I am confident that little trooper is going to surprise the heck out of you and rally very soon! In the meantime, she can luxuriate in the best little kitty condo on the planet. You are such a good Momma Bean!
@Woodsywife here's the pic! I think it's a baby nasal suction syringe but I like Mogs' term better!!
Thank you for the hugs, and I've just given Saoirse the scritches.
The playpen is completely enclosed but it's got two zippered side panels, and the 'roof' is zippered, too. The playpen's great because she has much better visibility of the room, she can walk around in it, and she has plenty of sprawl space to get really comfy. I'll post some pics.
It was sooooooo wonderful to get the collar off her when we got home today and know that she was safe from bumping into anything because she has a nice, airy, protective space to be in where there isn't the feeling of incarceration that the cage has. I have found it so tough over the past fortnight seeing her wanting to groom after eating and not being able to. She ate a little bit for me when she first got home and then gave herself a bit of a bath. I was so happy and relieved for her! (She doesn't like mummy tending to her important little places.)
On the baby food, I've never been able to find a plain baby food in the UK.
EDITED TO ADD:
It's quite easy to move the kitty hotel around without unloading it. I slid it over beside the sofa earlier this evening so that Saoirse and I can be close together and I can give her plenty of fusses and scritches.
Keeping you and Saoirse in my heart and thoughts and prayers be with you. Much love and many your way.
So it could be used outside? I would love to let my kitties out in it over the summer.
Mogs Magellan and I are sending lots of healing vines and loving thoughts. Keep the faith and your hart will let you know what needs to be done and how to do it, we have faith in both of you.
Many luvs and hugs
Julia and Magellan
Good idea... kitties love dripping water! Sending more good wishes, hugs, prayers, and scritches.
That makes sense. My own tum's been in ribbons. I was in that awful wanna-throw-up state earlier today. The meds have helped a bit with that.
My little Munchkin has woken up from her snooze. She's sitting in sphynx position and purring. I don't think she got a comfortable sleep all the time she had to wear the collar.
And she has just eaten a little bit more of the i/d - took it off my fingers (warming didn't work great) - mostly gravy but it's something.
I know there have been times when I've been so tired I felt nauseated and nothing I could think of food wise really appealed to me even though I was hungry. I'm sure it's the same with our kitties. After all, look how much time they usually spend cat napping! Imagine having to catch up on THAT much sleep! I think Saoirse will be just fine with some good snoozes and her favourite person's loving care!
(((Mogs and Saoirse)))
Mogs, I hate to hear that you're feeling it may be her time. But you know your girl best...whatever decision you make WILL be the right one, I know.
Please give Saoirse scritches from me as well. Just snuggle with her and cuddle her and love her. I know you're doing that already. Please know that we're all pulling for you and hoping Saoirse makes a grand comeback! Healing vines for you both!
Sending Tons of Prayers and Hugs for you and Saoirse. Keeping you in our Prayers tonight.
PMPS - 14.1 (Alphatrak) / BBK 0.8 - Ate tiny bit of Hill's i/d + some of the gravy / Dose: Skinny 0.25 IU Lantus.
PM+1.75 - 12.5 (Lantus onset at +1.5).
PM+4.75 - 10.5
Saoirse's sitting up and purring, and doing her little 'speak'. If only I could get some food and water into her.
Bit nerve-wracking with the insulin, too. I've never ever had to give Saoirse insulin when she was eating so little.
Big huge hugs and lots of prayers for you and Saiorse...She is a determined, strong kitty who knows how much you love and care for her!!! She loves you right back and she is a fighter!! Small steps.. she is eating a bit ..good sign!!
With blood sugars in the 200's, you should be ok giving insulin. Because she has a very low level of ketones, what I would do personally is give very small amounts of honey every 2 hours or so, and adjust the insulin a little higher. This might perk up the appetite as well. Don't let the BS go much above 250ish though, because it will slow down healing increase dehydration.
Also, has she pooped? If not, this is probably the biggest contributor to the poor appetite and nausea. No amount of anti-nausea or anti-acid medications will help with nausea from constipation. You need to get things moving, and moving fast. The anesthesia, dehydration, and bupe can be very constipating. I would start miralax ASAP if you haven't already (per vet recommended doses), and would inquire about metoclopromide as it is really the magic bullet for this sort of situation however terrible of a med it can be (did she have a bad reaction once? I can't remember).
The vet may be able to give an enema as well, but this only treats the "low side" you also need meds to treat the upper bowels. If she goes back to the vet, a abdominal x-ray would show if she's constipated.
Hang in there.
You are doing everything perfect.... she does love you. She has overcome so much I am sure she will continue to overcome it just may be in baby steps...
I agree to take her lead ... sending you much love light and healing for you and your sweet girl.
I'm very glad to hear from you.
Are those human or veterinary meter reference numbers? (I use an Alphatrak.) Also, what sort of nadir should I be targeting?
Realistically I can't do the honey every two hours + increased insulin because I have no-one to cover for me (or even wake me) and I'm afraid of passing out with exhaustion which would leave Saoirse at risk of hypo. At the moment all I can get down her is the gravy from Hill's i/d.
She had got over the post-anaesthesia constipation and was producing fairly normal poops at home before she was hospitalised last Sunday. Since then she's been pooping once every two days. (Monday, Wednesday, Friday). The Monday stools were very hard but Friday morning's were "OK" (what that means exactly I don't know). I did ask the vets to add a pinch of psyllium to her meals while she was there. Now that her face has healed more I discussed bupe with the vet and to stop a withdrawal high blood pressure reaction the plan is to only give a daily token dose of 0.1ml.
How do I get the Miralax into her? Mixed in the gravy? Can it be co-administered with metoclopramide?
Saoirse did have metoclopramide before. She was on it for a few weeks IIRC and she started to twitch a little. I stopped it within 2 days of seeing the twitch (had to wait that long for ondansetron Rx to come in).
What about her current meds (Famotidine, ondansetron)? Does she have to stop them if she takes metoclopramide?
Would slippery elm do any good if I could get it into her?
You mix miralax in her food.
Yes, that will work. I mix it with baby food for Rosa, but it's fine to be mixed into regular food or gravy as well.
I'm sorry, I can't help with any of the other drug interaction questions - most of them I haven't used before, but that one I do know the answer to.
She won't eat for me.
I'm not sure about the metoclopromide with the ondansetron together, but personally, to minimize reactions to drugs in general, I would just do one or the other. They work differently. The metoclopromide works on the receptors in the GI tract and cause things to move much faster along the GI tract. This can help nausea, reflux, and constipation all in one. The ondansetron works on the vomiting center in the brain, but not at all on the GI system. It prevents nausea/vomiting by making your brain less sensitive to triggers.
Metoclopromide is not a good long term medication, but rather a better medication for acute situations where you only might need a few doses to get back on track.
The gravy is probably better for keeping the BS up because it's digested even slower and lasts longer than pure sugar.
Is she still eating small amounts of gravy, Mogs? You can just as easily mix it with that - it has no flavor so she shouldn't even notice.
The slippery elm is probably more of a maintenance way to manage GI issues. I don't think it is strong enough to resolve opiate and illness-related constipation which can be fairly significant.
I've been reading through all of this and I really hope she pulls through for you. Thinking about your sweet baby, and hoping you get some much needed rest soon
Thanks for getting back to me.
When Saoirse was on metoclopramide during the pancreatitis flare she needed cyproheptadine co-administered or else she wouldn't eat at all. That said, she did have diarrhoea at the time, not constipation. I'm going to ask the vet about it in the morning. I have cypro if it's needed (both tablet and liquid suspension).
My question about slippery elm was more in terms of its soothing effects - the vets didn't put Saoirse's phosphorus binder into her food and I'm worried about stomach acid. I did manage to give her a dose of famotidine on Friday afternoon. I asked the vets to give her a dose the previous afternoon. I'm assuming they did so.
I feel so out of my depth.
Sort of. She'll lick a little bit off my finger but then needs a break. Thank you for the suggestion, April.
Thank you, JC.
Now you know why I was so thrilled to hear Diego started eating again for you.
You know what they say Mogs - slow and steady wins the race. She'll get there.
Just tried a different type of food she has not had before. (Sheba Fresh Choice in Gravy - 8.5% carbs). She ate 17g straight from the bowl. Fingers and paws crossed it's not a one-off.
Now that's what I like to hear! Come on Saoirse - 17g at a time is just fine if you can keep on doing it!
I just want to do what's right by her. I love her.
I wish she would drink some water or broth for me. She doesn't appreciate a syringe.
I know you do - and that's why you always will do right by her. But, honestly, I don't think she's ready to give up yet.
Would she lap it from a spoon for you? Rosa will sometimes take things that way that she won't touch otherwise. I think it makes them feel extra-special to be spoon-fed sometimes.
Mogs, please try tapping that pureed food up on the roof of her mouth. Part of the nausea may be because she has an empty stomach and there's no water to dilute the acid.
Just a tiny bit...please? Dottie doesn't struggle when I do it this way. Perhaps Saoirse will oblige you, too. Not too much, just a fingertip worth, and plenty of time in between bites. It takes me a good 30 minutes to feed Dottie this way, but otoh she's on my lap, and purring. I'm not sure why you aren't having an IV bag at home? Is it something that is disallowed in the UK? Dottie's like a different cat after I give her a fill-up. She runs around and even tries to eat.
Here's another way you might try for water. Put a thick towel under her, and then take a water saturated washcloth, and wet her front feet, and flank. Or better yet, use a spray bottle to mist her coat. She'll want to be dry, and will want to lick the water from her fur. If you spritz lightly the water will bead up on he fur....and if it does get saturated, if she's got an undercoat it will hold water like a sponge, and help keep enough of it on her, that she'll get a good slurp off her coat.
If you have a small atomiser, (Not a giant spray bottle...)...or even a small squeeze bottle with a tiny hole, you can even mist her mouth a bit. The mist will condense on her tongue, and she'll swallow it. The work would be tedious but you'll get water into her. That will dilute the acid
Sending lots of healing light your way, Moglet. If it really is her decision, darken the room, keep everything quiet, and just sit with her. Wrap her in her favorite blanket. Sing her favorite song, and give her lots of scritches.
But somehow I don't think she's done yet. Touching you with her paw shows the light burns bright in her. I know syringe feeding looks terrible, but at least try it. Get one meal in her before you give up. The fact that she's willing to try some new food, means she's not as sick to her stomach as you might think...this could partly be a control issue with her. Cats just don't like being told to eat...like anorexic people..It's just that Saoirse doesn't understand that refusing food will cost her her life.
You are very, very tired now, and the fatigue may be clouding your thinking. "Always darkest before the dawn.." Remember that old saying? Give Saoirse a bit longer, ok? We're all pulling for the both of you.
To encourage her to drink, have you tried pouring or dripping some water into a bowl that's already partially filled with water? Hannah is more likely to drink running water than sitting water. The splashing gets her interest.
Saoirse likes waitress service.
I've been holding her little dish up to her but, with the exception of the new food, she won't take anything for me; just from my hand or from my fingers.
I don't think she wants to give up, either. Far from it. But what do I do when I can't get adequate sustenance sustenance and fluids into her?
Just seeing this...No real advice just prayers for you both..Hope she rallies for you soon. You know we will have all fingers, toes and paws crossed for your dear girl.
Mel and The Fur Gang
Could you put a little broth cupped in your hand to see if she'll drink it for you that way?
I think what you do is exactly what you are doing - keep trying her with whatever flavors you can, as regularly as you can, so that she gets some calories into her as often as you can persuade her. I do think she'll start eating better as she settles back in at home.
The same goes for Saoirse. She was completely full of beans when she got home on Wednesday and she was perky again today when I got her home. That's what's so awful about this situation, Jeanne. I did talk with the vets about sub-q's but I think it would be too distressing a process for Saoirse; she has been through such a lot. Whatever I do to try to help her now I badly want to be gentle interventions.
The syringe feeding is a really tricky issue. Apart from the fact that I know Saoirse well enough to know she'd hate it, with her pancreatitis there is only one food I've found that she can eat consistently. Other stuff just really upsets her system. If I were to use her normal food she could end up with an aversion to it and then I would not know what to feed her going forward.
Thank you, Jeanne, for the ideas about dampening her coat to try to get water into her; they're really creative and helpful.
I'm very glad you found a way to help Dottie to eat for you.
Saoirse's due her next dose of ondansetron in an hour. I might try giving it to her a bit early. She's having a very relaxed snooze at the moment. I might try the sleepy eating trick with her shortly. I need to check her BG as well.
When Max was very ill, we found that the subQ fluids weren't really much more invasive than giving insulin. Sure, that needle looks big, and the process is a little strange to watch, but he didn't seem to mind too much. There aren't a lot of nerve endings in the scruff. The syringe feeding was 100 times more stressful for both of us than the subQ. You could tell he felt much better after the fluids too. Dehydration can be pretty lousy feeling.
Have you tried any dry foods or snacks too? Sometimes these are easier to eat, cause they just swallow them whole and they are more calorie-dense.
When I brought Saoirse back to the vets for fluids on Thursday afternoon the vet I spoke to then said that the sub-qs needed to be given gradually and at multiple sites in each session!
Re dried food, the only things I have are her freeze-dried chicken treats (she seems to be associating those with the vets at the moment) or Whiskas Temptations (for her hypo kit). Would Purina DM kibble be a help? I've got Amazon Prime and I could get some delivered on Sunday.
That is definitely not accurate. With Shadow, we were giving 100 ml at a time all in one place - and the last few months of her life, she only weighed around 7.5 lb. You don't have to give them particularly slowly and definitely not at multiple sites.
i also agree with April. i give sub q fluids all the time and it's always just in 1 place just behind the scruff. usually 100 to 150 mls each day and it only takes about 5 min or so and it's true, it really isn't all that stressful for them. they have these super smooth turmo needles that are very easy on kitty. i can send you some to try.
(ps. i'll pm that supplement info for you)
love & hugs
Ya we were giving 100ml twice a day. Only in one spot each session. He really didn't seem to mind.
If she'll eat the treats or dry (as long as you don't think it will aggravate the pancreas) then there's no reason not to try. I'd try the temptations first before you order a whole bag of food, in case she isn't going for it. Also, what worked for us was dissolving dry in a little water, he seemed to like that more than just the wet food and it kept him hydrated.
Oh Mogs, I've just seen this and sat and read through the whole 3 pages. I'm so sorry you are having such an awful time with Saoirse. Hugs and heaps of healing vibes to you both (all three if Lunasa still needs some too) xxx
You are such a fantastic cat mama and such an inspiration to so many of us, (especially to us newbies on the caring for a diabetic cat front)
Just keep doing what you're doing but look after yourself in there somewhere too X
PMPS - 14.1 (Alphatrak) / BBK 0.8 - Ate tiny bit of Hill's i/d + some of the gravy / Dose: Skinny 0.25 IU Lantus.
PM+1.75 - 12.5 (Lantus onset at +1.5).
PM+4.75 - 10.5
PM+10.50 - 15.3 ( ) / BBK o.5
Fed mostly Hill's i/d gravy (25% carbs) and 17g of Sheba Fresh Choice pouch (8.5%) up to PM+10.5.
Only 7g of gravy since but I did manage to get a little water into Saoirse using a small pipette without too much protest. She brightened up a smidge and started purring (contented type) shortly after. I've been heaping praise on Saoirse all night when I've managed to get a little food and fluids into her. I don't know what else to do.
@Jeanne & Dottie - I used one of your suggestions and put water on her paws and a little on her coat. She did groom the paws a bit but not the other areas so I dried the latter off. Will keep trying the paws.
If only she'd eat!!!
I don't know what else to do. Could an appy stimulant make things worse, not better?
more prayers and vines for you and Saoirse
I am sitting here looking at my beloved cat. I've just managed to get her to drink nearly 30ml of chicken broth and water with a tiny bit of slippery elm mixed through it. She perked up pretty much immediately and as I write she is sitting up in her little hotel, purring away, and looking at me with a look of complete and utter trust.
After all the carbs last night her BG is a crazy 17.6/317 (Alphatrak) ... BUT ... BBK is down to 0.3. I've given her a fat 0.25 IU Lantus. I could not risk going higher in case I might pass out at some stage today and not be able to monitor her through the full cycle. She also had no problem eating 3 Temptations treats. I am a bit concerned about adding dry food to her diet for fear it would create greater hydration problems. What to do?
@Meya14 - I've put a call in to the vet about metoclopramide.
Please say a prayer I can stay awake long enough, get some sleep, get hold of a friend of mine to call in and physically shake me awake if necessary so that I can do right by my beloved Saoirse. She wants to be here and I MUST do all I can as gently as possible to help her overcome her inappetence. Her life depends on it. I pray to God I do not fail her. She believes in me.
Now I badly need to get Saoirse's spreadsheet up to date (which will help me stay conscious, I hope). There is a smorgasbord of foods in the kitty hotel (*shudder*).
Thank you everyone for your continued prayers and vibes for my girl. Thank you also for the blessing of your company: you all helped to keep us going last night.
Glad to hear you sounding more positive in the light of day, Mogs... I do understand how it must be for you, not wanting to put your baby through more stressy stuff, so if she's eating and drinking just a little that will help her feel better... I understand your dilemma of giving her dry treats for encouragement to eat yet not wanting to dehydrate her further... Can you put the little treats on the edge of a saucer or similar with some cat milk (eg Whiskas)... the dryness of the treats might stimulate a desire for liquid and the aroma of the milk (if there is one) may encourage her to lap up some of the milk...?
Keep trying whatever you think is best... it does look as of Saiorse herself wants to get better, and why wouldn't she... She is such a happy well-loved cat, now she just needs to turn another little corner...
Please don't hesitate to try giving fluids, Mogs. The others are right! An injection is an injection. A poke is a poke. And seeing Saoirse perk up and play will be a miracle. I'm getting ready to 'top off' Dottie tonight. She really thinks she doesn't need to drink anything either! An alternative I use sometimes is to give her a few mls with an eyedropper, at regular intervals.
But giving fluids is a snap if you've done injections. A pinch for a second, and most kitties don't even flinch. Just remember to keep the bevel of the needle on top..just like when you give a shot. Pin Saoirse into an area where she can't jump off the table. I have a nook in my kitchen area that I've set up a table. I point her head into the corner next to the refrigerator and there's no place to go. If you use the scruff, they don't feel much..just like with a shot. If she squeaks, it's just because she's startled. Dottie doesn't make a sound any more.
Hm...my own vet doesn't poke a fluid needle all over. One spot will do. Know why your vets might do multiple pokes? Because when you add fluids, and only use one spot, there's a 'bump' of water beneath the skin, and sometimes that alarms owners. But it shouldn't. Kitties' skin isn't attached like ours, remember? It's almost literally like wearing a coat. So the water goes in between skin and body. Multiple pokes just means the same amount of water, just in different spots. And the bit about kitties needing fluid gradually, that's a crock. They only absorb it at one speed. X amount of water soaks into the body only so fast. Doesn't make a difference whether there's five spots of water, in different spots, or all in a 'lump'. It all gets absorbed at the same rate! I think for your docs over there, that might be a silly myth perpetuated by old teaching..just like docs over here don't condone owners home testing.
You can feel the blop of water beneath her fur as the fluid goes in. You can keep track on the bag, but I've learned just how big the bump needs to be on Dottie, so I can almost guestimate it by now. Just keep Saorise cornered, so she can't jump off the table until her fillup is done. Once the needle is in, Dottie will often lie down. I scritch her right under her chin and she just lies there. Of course she is glad to get down off the table. Cats hate being told what to do.
I call Dottie my 'bag lady' after she gets fluid. She might have a little hunchback that disperses quickly, in a matter of hours. Sometimes it slides to one side, and a wee bit might leak out, but that's ok, most stays in.. It's not painful, and the transformation of the cat's behavior is astounding.
But it IS good news that you got that much water into her through the front door. Things are looking up, yes?
AHHHHHH! That conjures up a picture to melt my heart! Saoirse's telling you she's getting better even if it is a slow process. The fact that she is acknowledging and accepting your care and taking in some calories says it all! She's a fighter like her Mom!
It looks to me like you have been up all night again, and I understand why, but please do try to get some rest. I think it's a great idea to have your friend come and rouse you. Just remember, you need to look after yourself to be able to look after Saoirse so don't hesitate to ask for a bit of help from wherever you can. Know all of us are wishing there was more we could do to help but for now, more hugs, more scritches, more prayers and more hunger pangs are enroute!
Hi Mogs - My vet never said anything about a danger with cypro and liver - Murphy's liver function tests (SGOT, GGT, etc) are normal - are Saoirse's? I would use that as a guide. I think cypro is used all the time in cats with these GI and liver problems, Right now inappetence is the looming issue - so I wouldn't hesitate to give cypro if that stimulates the appetite. I have noticed that if I give the cypro several days in a row, it seems like it loses effectiveness so I try not to give every day. If I need to give several days in a row, I would use mirtazipine in between. I try first with 1/4 tab of cypro- my vet says can go up to 1/2 tablet. I do agree with Jeannie that giving subQ fluids is easy if you can give SubQ injections. There are some good videos and advice in Tanya's site. Sometimes when Murphy is nauseated and seems to not feel well, I give him 100-150 cc of fluids and it always perks him up. It may be too much for you right now, but maybe if the vet or someone is coming for house calls, they can do that in your home. SubQ fluids are used very commonly here, but I wonder if they are not that common in Europe. I lived in Cambodia and went to vets from France, and they never did SQ fluids- only IV. Hoping this day brings her appetite back in full force, Mogs
Mogs, have you tried putting water or some fluids in a coffee cup or glass and put that in front of her? A lot of kitties love to dip their foot in it and then lick their foot. Of course using your best china is a must.
Good Morning Mogs ~ Reading through and seeing that Saoirse still presents with no Ketones is very good news! Sending appy vines to her and vines of comfort to you!
Things not hectic here. I've figured out why Saoirse is reluctant to drink: it's probably a bit stingy to pee with the UTI. She had a UTI a number of years ago and she stopped drinking then, too. I'm trying to give her a little water with a pipette, since this is what I did to help her before.
I've got the Rx for the metoclopramide. I need to get it collected from the pharmacy when they open after lunch. As @Meya14 mentioned earlier, the ondansetron isn't helping much with the nausea at the moment. The only thing that Saoirse can tolerate is the gravy from the Hill's i/d and that's stuffed with carbs
I ordered some d-mannose pure powder and it arrived today ('Now' brand). I've read it can help with UTIs but I don't know how to use it. Does anyone have experience of using it? I'd be grateful if you could share your experiences with it.
I feel like I did when Saoirse had the bad pancreatitis flare: panicked, sad, scared, out of my depth and helpless to help my girl. I hated all the treatments she needed to get her through that. I hate what's happening now.
Tried parking the bowl in front of her. No joy.
Thanks for coming back to me, Carol. Saoirse's bile acids were elevated last few rounds of labs but other markers were OK according to vet, and they found some non-specific abnormalities when she had an ultrasound. She was doing great on her Hepatosyl supplement (SAM-e, silybin, vitamin E). I'd like to reintroduce it but that requires her to eat/drink.
Try a tall glass or coffee cup, it's a different shape that might interest her. If there is no chance of her knocking it over, just leave it for awhile. If glass is clear try putting an ice cube in it, she might think it's a toy and try to get it out. I'm thinking you don't have the reusable ice cubes, they are quite colorful. My guys like to just bat them around.
I need help with dosing for tonight. I have GOT to find a way to sleep for a few hours before PMPS. I wasn't this exhausted when I nursed Saoirse through the pancreatitis flare. Also I was able to do a proper job of regulating her and also keeping her well hydrated. IIRC I think the metoclopramide made her pee more (but I could be wrong in my recollection).
I wish I had someone here alongside me to properly help Saoirse. She deserves so much better than I'm delivering right now.
You doing just fine. Take it one step at a time. All of a sudden she will just kick into gear. Put some food and water in her new home, set the home next to the couch or nice comfy chair where you can see and hear her, put on some mood music, set alarm for 2 hrs and see what happens. She might need a little down time for herself.
On the positive side of the equation, Saoirse does have an an appetite. I just need to help her not feel queasy.
This is my fear. Because of the PTSD I tend to pass out rather than sleep. I am afraid of sleeping through the (very loud) alarm. That's part of why I need to be very careful with Saoirse's insulin. I need to be as certain as I can that she will coast in safe numbers before I can sleep because I can't guarantee waking to check her. Of course at the moment that's kinda moot: she needs me to assist her with eating.
Already done. At least I've got one thing right.
Does anyone know the kcal from carbs for Purina DM dry food? My head's to frotzed to go looking for food lists.
Off to get Saoirse's meds. Not fun for an agoraphobic at the best of times but great necessity forces the issue.
Purina mostly from Heska Patent 6,203,825; prescription values from Linda & Friday
Purina DM (CNM-DM) 50 37 13 0.3 373 592
Purina NF 27 28 45 0.3 104 398
Purina OM 40 21 39 2.4 346 326
Purina UR 32 26 42 0.4 221 366
Urinary Tract Health Formula 29 36 35 0.3 245 433
Cat Chow 34 29 37 0.4 394
Kitten Chow 37 30 32 0.5
Cat Chow Mature 37 23 40 0.5
O.N.E. Chicken & Rice - Cats 30 33 37 0.4
O.N.E. Chicken & Rice - Kittens 32 37 31 0.3
ProPlan Growth 29 44 27 0.3
ProPlan Adult 30 36 34 0.4
ProPlan Hairball 35 37 27 1.2 326
ProPlan Lite 36 23 41 0.7
ProPlan Turkey & Barley 31 39 30 0.6
the directions on the denamarin say to give it on an empty stomach (after overnight fast) what about the anti emetic? There's an injectable one similar to zolfram (starts with d Can't remember name right now) Are you going to try the cyproheptadine?
@Mum of two felines - You are a star! I really appreciate your help. Thank you!!
Just ordered a small bag of the kibble to have another weapon in the arsenal.
@Woodsywife, I like your suggestions. I agree that sometimes the simple tricks, such as yours, actually work. Of course, that's not always the case, as we well know, ECID. And we also know that most kitties have to make the choice by themselves. And if they choose to ignore what we think is a good idea, then we need to come up with Plan B... or Plan C... or...? I know from personal experience, cats are very attracted to moving water, so an ice cube or a small floating toy such as a ping-pong ball often offer some inspiration. I've had cats that would only drink from the dripping bathtub faucet. With Hannah, she won't drink from a small bowl. Nope, it's got to be a huge bowl, one that she could almost swim in if she were so inclined... which, of course, she's not. But, hey... it's what she likes, so it's what she gets. Works for her.
Mogs.. Saoirse is taking a boatload of medications... What are the side effects? Could one or two of them conbine to cause her additional nausea? If so are there alternate drugs or treatments that might be used in their place? And how dark is your home? Sometimes a lack of narural light can suppress appetite and drinking patterns. Cats don't need the sun to manufacture vitamin d but they are circadian creatures nonetheless.. Could lack of sunlight be creating depression, which in turn will depress appetite ?
Another thought.. Saoirse may need some physical therapy. She's been pretty immobilized for days. This may suppress appetite and cause nausea as well.
Anyone who has ever had a healh issue and been bedbound knows how much better they feel once they are able to move about. Could it be that taking a chance and allowing Saoirse to resume a tiny bit of her daily routine... Even at the risk of bumping her eye, might do her a world of good?
Nothing would make me more sick in my gut like feeling that I might be stuck in bed forever. Saoirse needs distraction to get her mind off her condition so she doesn't think her life is over.. Many people, when put in a nursing home give up.. And the anxiety of being deprived of freedom causes gastric upset.
Saoirse already has a burden of pancreatitis.So we gotta try fixing her morale as well as her body before she makes her recovery.
I have just read through the whole thread and I am so sorry to hear about all your problems and feel bad that I haven't been about much to check in on everyone.
You are doing a fantastic job. My advice is really just to keep going. I had the same with remi a few years ago. He was so ill and couldn't eat but I could see in his eyes that he wanted to. I know I have mentioned this before but I will mention it again in case it helps.
The denamarin made him feel nauseous so I you think this might be the case you may want to stop it for a day to see if it makes a difference.
Getting food into sairose is vital as you well know. In order to do this under the advice of my vet I ended up giving remi both cerenia and ondansetron together (not at exactly he same time) and also gave more than the usual dose of ondansetron. I a, not saying to do this but just to consider.
I gave up trying to syringe feed his normal food as it made him retch. I ended up giving royal can in convalescence support sachets. They look and smell like milk. Easy to syringe and plain enough not to cause him to vomit. Sure they are probably high in carbs but it was the only thing he could have. I would mix it with warm water and give 10 or 20 ml every hour or even couple of hours. It meant he had fluid and calories/nutrients at the same time. I have some here and can send you a couple to try first class Monday if you want.
Finally getting the right antibiotic really helped his cholangihepatitis and this helped him turn a corner.
I persuaded my vet to give sub q at home and it did help but as a newbie I needed help to set it up. It wasn't as stressful as I thought but I didn't continue to for long.
I have to go out now but let me know if I can help in any way.
I agree with denamarin causing nausea sometimes I've definitely noticed that I think because it has to be given on an empty stomach So Mogs maybe it's not so bad you are not giving it right now Sarah, what was the antibiotic that worked for the cholangihepatitis?
Mogs, I have no advice to offer, but lots of hugs! One of mine is at the vet today, so I may not be around much but know that you are in my thoughts!
Mogs, I'm just reading this as I've been staying off the boards for awhile since my vet's opinion on treating things differs from this forum's advice and we were coming to blows over it at times. So, I'm far behind but, catching up on your situation.
I don't have the technical knowledge that others in here have so, I can't offer that but, I can offer up my prayers for both of you! I do understand the anxiety disorder though and I do understand the "do everything possible for our babies" part. Just HUGS!!!!!! Prayers, healing energies etc., coming to both of you!
I may be up the creek here with this suggestion but, it seems that eating and drinking is most important right now. Since she will eat the Temptations without problem and WANTS them, it means (to me anyways) that her appetite isn't totally gone. It's just hiding. When we're sick, we tend to have an appetite for certain things but, not a salad for instance. We may only want french fries or something we shouldn't have like cookies etc.. Cats would be the same.
So, here's one possibility that you might want to try???
If you have a blender or a Magic Bullet or something that can crush the Temptations into powder and perhaps, some other dry food that she'll eat....why not grind both a few Temptations and the kibble that she'll eat to powder THEN...add in some either broth or water to make a "pate/paste"??? That way, she's getting something that she likes to eat as well as fluid? You can even make it "soupy" so she's getting MORE water/fluid??? We've had to do that with Morrigan and it seems to work well.
Other than that, I can only say that you're NOT a "failure" for her or to her. Even docs can't do much about their own family members or pets when they're that sick other than what we would do. Just keep on doing what you're doing and give her time. Keep on trying as you are and we'll keep on praying and sending healing thoughts/energies.
XO XO XO
Started typing this just after GMT 15:00 today (Saturday):
An overnight fast? Wow! I've given Saoirse Samylin tablets and Hepatosyl. Both say it's OK to give after a minimum 2-hour fast and 1 hour before the next feed. Because Saoirse needs mini meals the Denamarin would be a no-no for her.
If I could guarantee Saoirse would drink for me I could pill the Samylin but they're big tablets and I couldn't guarantee they'd go down properly. The Hepatosyl is a sprinkle capsule and they advise it's OK to give a very small amount of food with it. BTW the Hepatosyl contains alfalfa and it definitely seems to do Saoirse's digestive system good (it's a folk remedy for GI issues).
I've given Saoirse ondansetron (aka Zofran) which normally works a treat for her nausea issues but it's not an anti-emetic. Cerenia helps both nausea and vomiting.
Re the appy stimulants, Saoirse had a bad reaction to mirtazapine but she got on well with cyproheptadine. I'm holding fire on the appy stimulant at the moment because Saoirse actually wants to eat, she just needs help with the nausea, etc. In fact ...
Saoirse ate some i/d ... off her own bat! After such a rough start to the day, she's much happier in herself now and is sitting up in the middle of her hotel ... Scratch that: she's eating again!!! The i/d chunks as well as the sauce. Now she's onto the lower carb Sheba stuff she ate for me last night but didn't want to know about this morning.
What a cat.
Without help from me Saoirse has eaten nearly a full pouch of Hill's i/d (gravy AND chunks) plus one of the medium pouches of Sheba Fresh Choice. I shudder to think what her BG will be at PMPS but Saoirse is hungry and eating under her own steam at the moment. I pray that this will continue.
Earlier we had a lovely snuggle on the sofa together. She is in her little hotel at the moment, purring away. And I managed to get a few hours of desperately needed sleep.
My heartfelt thanks to each and every one of you for your continuing prayers and healing thoughts for my girl.
GREAT to hear! (ANTI-JINX)!!!
Maybe, just keep an arsenal of foods available so that when she is hungry, if she doesn't fancy one...she'll take to another???
Seems she's got an appetite of some kind...which is a good sign! XO
More vines for increasing appetite
Glad to hear she is eating on her own even if it's just a little. She just needs time. It's hard watching them not eat or drink when we think they should. She is on her schedule now, let her lead.
I know she needs some meds but is it poosible she getting to many meds and they make her feel worse??? I know for me when my sinuses are infected or I having a bout of bronchial asthma the meds make me feel worse. The only thing i want is chicken soup and crackers. Just something to think about.
Could part of her high numbers be because she has been FASTING. I remember you saying before that she got fasting spikes instead of food spikes, because an empty tummy upset her GI so badly and would make her nauseated. So now that she is trying to eat on her own again even if it is high carb, her numbers might actually come down some. Just a thought.
Mel and The Fur Gang
Sorry Mogs, for the confusion. The denamarin says it is preferable to give after an overnight fast, and 1 hr before food, but it is not necessary - just an empty stomach I think. Anzemet is the other anti-emetic that is injectible - I've never used it, but I heard it is an effective as zolfram (and a human med, I believe) I am sooooo happy she is eating for you
YAAYYYYYY SAOIRSE !!!!