Trying to decrease, nadir @149

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Ashleigh & Ares

Ashleigh & Ares

Very Active Member
Hello all. Im Ashleigh and my baby's Ares. We have been together for 12 years now.

I have been talking to @FrostD on vetsulin forum. I found that Ares nadir (1st time i took it) was 45 yesterday afternoon, and i quickly treated for hypo. So I decreased from 4U to 3U last night.
Woke up at 1am to take nadir, and it was 149.
Do i move insulin dose back up any? Or keep it at 3U to see how he does?
(I will be taking AMPS half hour from now. Then feed, then 20 to 30 min later shoot.)

Also- i see many people giving treats at amps and pmps, does this not affect his reading? Can i safely do this, it would be so much nicer for him

FYI: AT2, vetsulin since nov 19, vet had us move up very quickly.

Thanks all so very much!
Link to first post on vetsulin : https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/diabetic-being-picky-about-dinner.256859/#post-2890982
 
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AMPS 335, will be shooting in 20 to 30min
Thanks for any reply

update**
i went with 3U. will check +4

btw: sorry bout misspelling on post name, its irritating even me!!
 
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So there's no guarantee +4 is his nadir, it could be +3 to +7 ish, but most cats on Vetsulin are +4 to +6 (take a look at your AM cycle on the 16th). It may not be the same every day.

I think that 149 is actually perfect for now. He was bouncing from the 45, and in reality he probably went a little lower than that 149 (but not dangerously low). With the way Vetsulin works, if his nadir was after the 149, it was probably around 100-120 which is perfect until you get more data .

I would have said hold 3U so good job!
 
If he's willing, I would feed several hourly small snacks up until about +5 or +6. That will help slow down those hard Vetsulin drops. A lot of us use 5 slot autofeeders
 
FrostD said:
If he's willing, I would feed several hourly small snacks up until about +5 or +6. That will help slow down those hard Vetsulin drops. A lot of us use 5 slot autofeeders
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He would eat all day long if it let him. I thought i had to fast him to get good readings?
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
He would eat all day long if it let him. I thought i had to fast him to get good readings?
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The only tests that have to be fasting are the preshots. The other tests in the cycle do not have to be, in fact should not be because we want to see how the insulin works on a regular cycle factoring in food, etc.

How's his weight again? I think you said a little underweight?
 
FrostD said:
The only tests that have to be fasting are the preshots. The other tests in the cycle do not have to be, in fact should not be because we want to see how the insulin works on a regular cycle factoring in food, etc.

How's his weight again? I think you said a little underweight?
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I dont have a scale here. i cannot find one online that seems like it is accurate all the time. But last time his vet weight went 7.86, then week later 7.6, then 2.5 weeks later 6.68 this past thursday. He just seemed to perk up on friday after expelling hard stool. I was literally in tears Thursday night (thinking he was going to die) and jumping for joy on Friday (thinking he was going to be ok)
I havent noticed any weight gain yet, but no scale. Is there a scale you can suggest?

I want to do another curve, like at +2, +3, +4, +5, but i was hoping to give his ears a little reprieve...what you think, can i wait until wednesday?

Also, I am on EST too, so maybe that will make it easier to talk to eachother.
Thank you for helping me!!!
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
I dont have a scale here. i cannot find one online that seems like it is accurate all the time. But last time his vet weight went 7.86, then week later 7.6, then 2.5 weeks later 6.68 this past thursday. He just seemed to perk up on friday after expelling hard stool. I was literally in tears Thursday night (thinking he was going to die) and jumping for joy on Friday (thinking he was going to be ok)
I havent noticed any weight gain yet, but no scale. Is there a scale you can suggest?

I want to do another curve, like at +2, +3, +4, +5, but i was hoping to give his ears a little reprieve...what you think, can i wait until wednesday?

Also, I am on EST too, so maybe that will make it easier to talk to eachother.
Thank you for helping me!!!
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Do you know his ideal weight? Have you calculated the calories he needs for weight gain? I use this for a rough estimate: https://www.petplace.com/article/cats/pet-health/how-to-calculate-your-cats-daily-calorie-intake/

Keep in mind unregulated diabetic cats don't fully utilize food so he will need above whatever you calculate from that website. We try to feed two larger meals at shot time, then a few snacks in between. We try not to feed after nadir because the insulin is wearing off but if he's very underweight I wouldn't worry about that, the calories are more important.

Perhaps the vet would let you come in and do a weekly weight for free? A lot of people use baby scales.

I would do a curve next time you have a chance
 
Hello all
I have a some Qs for everyone or anyone who is willing to help:

1. I have about .25 left of vetsulin bottle, would it be good for me to get him on ProZinc instead? He eats all day long smaller meals (although i try to make him eat a large meal after amps/pmps. He is extremely picky. One day he will like a food, and next refuse to eat it...i constantly have to find different stuff for him.

2. Anyone know the info on the new Blue Tastefuls pates? are they low enough carb? I cannot find on the food charts

3. Is there a good post or link to show taking blood from paw? like all the details and tips...i have looked on YT and not very many there. It seems Ares is getting finickier while taking blood from ears than he used to and we are only 2 weeks in, i plan to do a curve tomorrow and am just trying to prepare for his terror. PS, i use all the techniques, (warm rice sock, neosporin, angle 45, bevel up, 30G, tissue under, hold onto ear, treat afterward) and he still flinches and tries to run. I dont have an issue getting the blood, its just him trying to run.

4. Also I moved from AT2 today to the ReliOn, but while testing his +5, i got errors 3x so i used my AT2 to get the reading. (he was about to flip out) it was error4 which i looked up and said i didnt get enough blood...it was enough for the AT2 tho...anyone else have this issue? or do i just always need to get a larger sample (it looked pretty decent to me) ??

5. I cannot find the post where it tells me how to tag a post (like if i needed help ASAP) I know how to tag a person, but not how to make a very important post. I thought i read it before, but cannot find now...

Thanks ALL!
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
I have about .25 left of vetsulin bottle, would it be good for me to get him on ProZinc instead? He eats all day long smaller meals (although i try to make him eat a large meal after amps/pmps. He is extremely picky. One day he will like a food, and next refuse to eat it...i constantly have to find different stuff for him.
Click to expand...

You can switch to either Prozinc or Lantus. I prefer Lantus myself
Semglee, it is a generic Lantus, and was approved by the FDA last June. The cost is compatible with Lantus from Canada.
Lantus is very expensive in the US


Here is a coupon below
Just call any pharmacy to see if they have the 5 pens, they will last you a year or more
Type in where you live and you will see where you can buy it
Lantus is expensive if you live in the US
https://www.goodrx.com/semglee?dosa...rride=Semglee&quantity=1&sort_type=popularity

You would need to buy U-100 syringes with half unit markings
We can tell you where to purchase them
 
Thanks Diane,
So, I can get pet scripts at human pharmacies? i didntknow that.

It wont let me like your msg for some reason....
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
Thanks Diane,
So, I can get pet scripts at human pharmacies? i didntknow that.

It wont let me like your msg for some reason....
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Yes you can.
I think prozincis about 108.00 for a vial

For Lantus
Just take the cap off the pen and use a U100 syringes and pull the insulin out of the pen!
With Lantus you use U-100 syringes with HALF UNIT MARKINGS
so you can increase or decrease by 0.25 units

With the pen you can only adjust by whole units, that's why we use syringes to insert in the little gray rubber stopper and draw out the insulin from there
Just take the cap off the pen and use a U100 syringes and pull the insulin out of the pen!
syringe-in-pen-pic-jpg.45006
 
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Ashleigh & Ares said:
Is there a good post or link to show taking blood from paw? like all the details and tips...i have looked on YT and not very many there. It seems Ares is getting finickier while taking blood from ears than he used to and we are only 2 weeks in, i plan to do a curve tomorrow and am just trying to prepare for his terror. PS, i use all the techniques, (warm rice sock, neosporin, angle 45, bevel up, 30G, tissue under, hold onto ear, treat afterward) and he still flinches and tries to run. I dont have an issue getting the blood, its just him trying to run.
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I have never drawn from the paw sorry, are you using 26 or 28 gauge lancets?
Don't use neosporin , there is an article about it , to not use it
You can try a little Vaseline . You can also put the blood on a clean finger nail and draw the blood from there
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
. I cannot find the post where it tells me how to tag a post (like if i needed help ASAP) I know how to tag a person, but not how to make a very important post. I thought i read it before, but cannot find now...
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Just go to the
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/feline-health-welcome-main-forum.28/
and to the right you will see Post a New Thread if you need help ASAP you can put that in your title , there is also a 911 there . or start your post with a ?

You can read about Lantus here
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-levemir-biosimilars.9/
 
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You guys are awesome! Thanks for answering all my Qs!
Diane, I am using a 30G now...i was using 28G the first few times and think i was hitting his vein. He has a bruise from the first couple days of me trying this! Then I got to where I knew to take from the edge, and his blood flows well. So I went to 30G ... well because it seemed the nicer thing to do by him ...
For now on, I will be getting a bit more blood before i connect to the strip, thanks Melissa :)
I think im going to NOT use the Blue tastefuls. I also read a post on main about FF causing some issues in some kittys b/c of a change of formula or supplier (they are not sure), so I am only going to give him the chicken (if he will eat it).
This Nulo pate that i fed him today...he is actually eating it! it has 212 cal/can and he has finished about 3/4 of it. And he has eaten some Tiki cat chicken (teal can). its not as much as he needs to gain, but it is alot more than what he was eating now that I know he needed so much.
 
That Blue tasteful doesn't look good to me . I'm glad he's eating Null pate now.
I hope he continues to eat it and puts weight back on. These cats can be so fussy
Sorry I don't know anything about testing on the paws.
I feed Tyler the FF chicken, the beef, the beef and liver, the chicken and liver
I switch the flavors up every day. He likes it heated up a little in the microwave, pain in my butt. Sometimes instead of heating it up I add warm water to it.
Always add some water to the wet food.
If you do switch insulin's let us know.
Tyler has been in remission since 1-24-2021
Started on Vetsulin, he did pretty good on it, but then switched to Lantus
Did you know we have a Supply Closet here where members sell Lantus when their kitties pass. I bought all mine from there at a very good price.
The girl I bought them from is selling some now at a great price
Others have bought from her ,we never had a problem
Just wanted to let you know about the Supply Closet
I'm going to delete my post about the tasteful since you're not going to try it, since I tagged Melissa
 
wow! so glad Tyler is in remission!
Heating up the food is a great idea, anything to get him to eat. I will try it. Ares makes me put water in his food, he will literally try to do it himself with his water bowl. wake me up out of deep sleep to glass bowls crashing together, means, get up and put some water in his food...lol

The Slippery Elm has been helping to get his hard stools out. His normal is healthy poo 1 per day. But right now he is doing hard stool about every other day with elm. I bought some mineral oil yesterday, but im afraid to give him any without suggestions. You have any? HE absolutely refuses to eat the ducolase the vet suggested (and i dont like him on it anyway). Much rather keep it to natural.

Supply Closet! Definitely! Thanks!

He just did so well! I was super calm, made sure i had a good size drop of blood, and boom. hardly a struggle. ReliOn worked like a charm. PHEWW
His numbers are so high tho for past 2 days :( I will take a curve tomorrow, +2,3,4,5.
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
wow! so glad Tyler is in remission!
Heating up the food is a great idea, anything to get him to eat. I will try it. Ares makes me put water in his food, he will literally try to do it himself with his water bowl. wake me up out of deep sleep to glass bowls crashing together, means, get up and put some water in his food...lol
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That is too funny what Ares does! Don't you just love when they wake you up.
When you heat it up it brings the smell of the food out more
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
The Slippery Elm has been helping to get his hard stools out. His normal is healthy poo 1 per day. But right now he is doing hard stool about every other day with elm. I bought some mineral oil yesterday, but im afraid to give him any without suggestions. You have any? HE absolutely refuses to eat the ducolase the vet suggested (and i dont like him on it anyway). Much rather keep it to natural.
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Most of us give miralax for constipation
Either an 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon twice a day.
I give Tyler an 1/8 of a teaspoon twice a day maybe every 2 days
You have to see what works for him, , if it's too much cut back, just be sure to add a nice amount of water to his wet food when you add the miralax to it.
You can buy the store brands such as Clearlax ,etc it's much cheaper , it's the same thing as miralax. They don't even taste it in the food

aka Miralax or generic form is polyethylene glycol 3350)
At my supermarket I buy the clearlax same thing, you can get CVS Brand, Wallgreens etc
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
He just did so well! I was super calm, made sure i had a good size drop of blood, and boom. hardly a struggle. ReliOn worked like a charm. PHEWW
His numbers are so high tho for past 2 days :( I will take a curve tomorrow, +2,3,4,5
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That great he did so well tonight.
I see you sent Kay a message , great !

About the curve
It's either a 12 hour curve, testing every 2 hours an 18 hour curve, testing every 3 hours.
Don't feed anything 2 hours prior to testing his AMPS
Example. 12 hour curve

For the curve let's say you give him the insulin at 5:30 AM
5:30 AM. Give insulin
7:30 AM test him
9:30 AM test him
11:30 AM test him
1:30 PM test him
3:30 PM test him
5:30 PM PMPS you test
You can continue to feed him normally
Good luck :cat:
 
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isnt his curve a little different for being on vetsulin. His nadir, i think, is somewhere between 3, 4, and 5. I mainly wanted to see these times together.
so, I think ill have to do more pokes!
His amps was at 830, so Ill do 1030, 1130, 1230, 130, 230, 430, 630, pmps...
I think this will determine if i move him back up by .25 (although it will be very very hard to do with my U40s)
Cant wait to change to Lantus if Kim will sell to me!

Thanks!
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
isnt his curve a little different for being on vetsulin. His nadir, i think, is somewhere between 3, 4, and 5. I mainly wanted to see these times together.
so, I think ill have to do more pokes!
His amps was at 830, so Ill do 1030, 1130, 1230, 130, 230, 430, 630, pmps...
I think this will determine if i move him back up by .25 (although it will be very very hard to do with my U40s)
Cant wait to change to Lantus if Kim will sell to me!
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You would do the curve the same way, but you can do it like you want to.
They do sell U-40 with half unit markings , but since you want to switch to lantus you might as well wait , you will just have to eye ball it. Even with the half u it marking syringes you have to eye ball such as 0.25 and 0.75 units.
It's just easier with the half unit markings. I'm sure Kay will get back to you.
49823063143_3437e9e997_o.jpg
 
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thank you, maybe i can place some half markings on the ones i have now...lol
I also responded to Jenna Josie about her 100s, maybe she still has them.
 
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Ill read up on miralax and check out those other posts for syringes, thanks Diane! I will keep you posted if i get supplies.
first 3 pricks have gone well this morning with the ReliOn :cat:... although it would be so much easier without his civvy sister bugging me out for snacks when he gets 2 after the pricks. :facepalm:
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
She just got back to me 20 min ago. I will have lantus soon!
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Alright! One question you said you are using the Relion Prime compact in your signature, are you sure it's not the Relion Premier Compact

When you get the lantus you can start a new thread ( post) to see what the more experienced members than me about how many units you should start with .
You can say Help switching to Lantus from Vetsulin help with dose
and attach this link to it
Keep them in the middle shelf of the fridge
If no one gets back to you about the syringes I can tell you where to get them, you will need a script from your vet
My daughters name is Ashley
 
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Hi Ashley :wave
Yes, you are correct it is premier.
Ares is eating away at this FF pate today! unbelievable...he is up to 150 call already 2day!
I feel like he is goin to put on some weight soon!

Updating signature now
 
Nice curve!

Although we look for nadirs around 90 on Vetsulin, 120 is pretty close. The problem is his bouncing. I'm inclined to hold the 3U for another week to see if his bouncing calms down any, but he needs to eat more in those hours leading up to nadir to slow it down.

You technically could increase to 3.25U if you wanted; however, if his bouncing improves that dose may take him a little low for comfort which is why I'm leaning towards holding 3U.

I'm sorry I can't remember your situation specifically - can you afford another insulin like Lantus? Or even ProZinc. The Vetsulin is very harsh for him (400 pt drop in a few hours is huge) so I don't have a lot of hope he'll stop bouncing anytime soon. Insulin shot drops him low, his liver panics and dumps sugar, bounce. Repeat.
 
Hi ladies, as of now had
amps 510
shoot 3U
+2 286
+3 182
+4 121
+5 139
+6 166
+8 371
+10 533

what do you think of moving him up tonight to 3.25? arent these numbers kinda high?
 
FrostD said:
Nice curve!

Although we look for nadirs around 90 on Vetsulin, 120 is pretty close. The problem is his bouncing. I'm inclined to hold the 3U for another week to see if his bouncing calms down any, but he needs to eat more in those hours leading up to nadir to slow it down.

You technically could increase to 3.25U if you wanted; however, if his bouncing improves that dose may take him a little low for comfort which is why I'm leaning towards holding 3U.

I'm sorry I can't remember your situation specifically - can you afford another insulin like Lantus? Or even ProZinc. The Vetsulin is very harsh for him (400 pt drop in a few hours is huge) so I don't have a lot of hope he'll stop bouncing anytime soon. Insulin shot drops him low, his liver panics and dumps sugar, bounce. Repeat.
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I was just able to buy 4 pens of lantus from the supply closet! will come 2-3 day shipping:)
i will need to get some U100's quickly.
 
ok, tonight will stay at 3U
i am worried that those 500's are hurting him tho :eek:
maybe in morning will try a fat 3U if his amps this high???

I fed him so much today, It was every 2 or less hours and much more than he normally does.
i believe his stomach is tiny and not used to eating this much. He was only eating about 180-200 cals before. And he never was one to scarf down a big bowl of food. (except for like 2 weeks before he was diagnosed where he was eating everything in the world and still losing weight)
Today so far he is at ~ 201 cal. He will get at least half FF can (40cal) at pmps and will feed him every hour after that until bedtime around 11 (if he will eat that much)

ok, think i have the plan.
Thanks Melissa!
 
FrostD said:
I'm sorry I can't remember your situation specifically - can you afford another insulin like Lantus? Or even ProZinc. The Vetsulin is very harsh for him (400 pt drop in a few hours is huge) so I don't have a lot of hope he'll stop bouncing anytime soon. Insulin shot drops him low, his liver panics and dumps sugar, bounce. Repeat.
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Hi Melissa
@FrostD
@Ashleigh & Ares
Ashleigh you forgot to tell Melissa the good news that you will be switching to Lantus soon. I hope you didn't mind me letting Melissa know, it's just that I'm so happy for you and Ares :cat:
@FrostD

By the way Ares is such a cutie !
 
oh yes Diane, i dont mind at all. i sent a reply to Melissa lol. The more you guys know about him the better.
hope it went thru
the more i understand his numbers the more the vetsulin freaks me out! im so done hahah. Im so thankful that you pointed kay out! so thankful for the AMAZING price.
 
Ashleigh & Ares said:
oh yes Diane, i dont mind at all. i sent a reply to Melissa lol. The more you guys know about him the better.
hope it went thru
the more i understand his numbers the more the vetsulin freaks me out! im so done hahah. Im so thankful that you pointed kay out! so thankful for the AMAZING price.
Click to expand...
You are very welcome, I think you will really like Lantus!
 
I would check at +3, because you want to catch him before he hits nadir in case he's going too low.

Great news on Lantus! Let us know when you're ready to switch and we can help advise on the Lantus starting dose.

Don't be too tempted to give higher doses based on those preshots, because the important thing is how low he goes.
 
I wasnt here today to check until +4, but his number seems off, its 291...does this happen?

I checked my blood and seems to be a number thats normal for me...lol

*update*
Oh my gosh, i read it upside down, i just checked the machine to see...and ya, im a doof

162
 
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just talked to my vet and he absolutely refused to let me get U100's
he also said that my cat will never go into remission because he is older and skinny,
I explained that i can divide and multiply by 2.5
he still refused
he said stay at 3..and that is all the further he was willing to do. I explained that i was doing all the work and monitoring him Tightly at home but he didnt care
he said he has never had to get a cat to even half doses before
guess time for me to find another vet
:(
 
Hi. It’s my first time on your condo. I saw the comment you made on scales. I have a digital baby scale that’s very accurate. It’s the Salter one. The Health-o meter looks identical and what my friend got. I’ve had mine a long time, many years, and it gives the same weigh as my vet gets. It costs about $40-50 depending on when you look on Amazon or eBay.

It’s definitely time for a new vet that understands cats.
 
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