Discussion in 'Caninsulin / Vetsulin and N / NPH' started by Diane Tyler's Mom, Nov 23, 2019.
@MrWorfMen's Mom evening Linda
PMPS - 162 Shooting 0.75 skinny @MrWorfMen's Mom
@MrWorfMen's Mom just in case you forgot about the new thread #1 @MrWorfMen's Mom
Hey Diane Glad you and Ashley got to be home today and that the smell is gone ....what a pain Scritches to Tyler and Perry ❤️
I slept most of the day lol like I said I can sleep through a bomb, Scritches to our Elmo
@MrWorfMen's Mom hey Linda in case you see this before say 7:45 am
Tyler was really bugging me to eat so rather than giving him a few dry Dr Elsey
I tested him and fed him his morning meal FF Pate. He finished eating at 7:00 am
So I would shoot around 7:45 am. I usually have been shooting around 9:00 am
Just couldn't hold off feeding him
Do you think that's ok, will it screw things up
Do you think I could hold off shooting until 8:30 am?
AMPS - 193 Shooting 0.75 skinny @MrWorfMen's Mom went ahead and shot at 8:00 am
You're fine shooting an hour early and even 90 minutes as long as pre-shot is in his usual range, you'd be fine. If pre-shot was way down, then shooting early might be a problem because the insulin could push BG down to lower than ideal levels. It's all relative.
@MrWorfMen's Mom hey Linda I understand that's what I thought when I saw his pre shot.If I don't check in later have a good night at the curling and will say hello after you get home.
@MrWorfMen's Mom Linda I know you may not be able to answer this question,
Looking at Tyler's pre shots that were sort of high lately it seems sometimes he isn't really dropping that much @+2 or @+3 , so I probably wouldn't see a green?
For example today his pre shot was 193 and @+3 was 142 I do realize he dropped 51 points
I doubt I would see a green, I could be wrong , guess I would have to test him every 2 hrs to find out right?
Like on 11-20-19 his pre shot was 134 in the am
On 11-21-19 his pre shot was 132 pm
Gave 0.75 skinny for all three of these and I doubt I would have seen a green
On 11-18-19 his pmps was 116 gave 0.5 on the line and no green
Hope you understand what I'm trying to ask
With the pre shots that were higher than he used to be he would really have to be dropping a lot through the cycle to hit a green It seems like by @+6 he is higher than he was in the past
What do you think @MrWorfMen's Mom
Compared to most kitties on Vetsulin, Tyler doesn't drop much at all which is great when he's in such good numbers all the time. I think some of the reason is that is that his numbers aren't that high to start with and he's burning through the insulin quickly which is common with Vetsulin. Something to consider would be switching to Lantus which would give you longer coverage and might get his numbers down even more.
He's in good shape now but you might (no guarantees) have a shot at getting him down more and possibly into remission with a longer lasting insulin. Sometimes folks have Lantus for very reasonable prices or even free in the Supply cabinet. Just something to think about.
I knew you were going to say that lol , I will see how it goes and will definitely think about , it's just that my credit cards are so high and I'm struggling already, I know I probably wouldn't have to buy the Lantus that often , I'm trying but to charge things and pay cash, but that's no excuse I know when it comes to having a kitty. I see there are langue sole star pens and vials of lantus, this would be all new to me , so if you get a pen than you can't stick a syringe in it, you have to dial the dosage, @MrWorfMen's Mom
Diane, how much Vetsulin do you usually end up throwing out when you open a new vial? Truth is on low doses, ordering Lantus from Canada, it's probably not that much different in cost and even better if someone here has some they are no longer using. I have Levemir in my fridge but I can't send it across the border. Wasn't going to get rid of it until Menace got past 1 yr. mark and we've passed that now.
I see what you are saying, but I haven't thrown out much yet, I just looked on the supply closet and I see some pens listed, but don't understand the lingo, they are describing the qty in it or the ml's I wouldn't know what to get, and can you stick a syringe in the pen'spen's could you take a look in the closet and explain what I should get in case I switch please @MrWorfMen's Mom
Tom and Thomas is close to you and has exactly what you would need to switch. The pens can be used almost the same as a vial. Only difference is that you don't inject air before drawing up the dose. Very simple. You'd also though need U100 syringes and that, if memory serves, might be a problem unless you can get your vet to write you a script for them. You could tell the vet you want them to finesse the dose of Vetsulin but that might cause them some concern too. Have you even discussed switching insulins with your vet?
No haven't discussed with her yet, so if I didn't want to shoot using the pen then I would need to use U100 syringes dumb me so you need those type of syringes to snap on to the pen? @MrWorfMen's Mom
No we don't use the pen to inject. It only allows for 1u dose increments and we dose in 0.25u increments so we use a syringe and take the top off the pen and use it like a vial.
OK so I would need to order U100 syringes, so you just take the top off of the pen and stick the syringe in it, but before I stick the syringe in it I would push the plunger up to the top of the syringe so there is no air being pushed into the pen! Please don't get aggravated with me with all these questions @MrWorfMen's Mom
Exactly! You got it.
OK now what type of syringes would I use, I googled U100 with half inch markings and I see a whole bunch of different types some are BD syringes and some ulti care meaning the gauge, mm, and cc
Doesn't matter. I always used BD but that was because I can't get anything else here. BD seems to have cornered the market in Canada. I've seen folks use the Ulticare (might be what Beth uses). Maybe ask Beth because she uses them for Elmo.
@Beth 73 Can you help Diane with syringe questions pretty please?
Sorry #18 I added to it I mean the gauge the mm and the cc @MrWorfMen's Mom
You want 3/10 ml, 31 or 33 gauge, 8mm needle. There are also 6mm needles that are fine but I found them too short and ended up with furshots.
OK thanks I know I'm driving you crazy Tyler is going in Dec to see her I will talk to her about it, what is the difference between the two gauges, is it the higher the gauge the thinner the needle, Tyler is fat, right now I use 29 gauge
33 gauge needle is skinnier than 31. Higher the number, skinnier the needle.
That's what I just found out right now I use 29 gauge on Tyler, he's fat, wouldn't a higher gauge bend, I guess a 31 gauge might be better @MrWorfMen's Mom sorry for all the questions found this
BD Insulin Syringes 31g 8mm 3/10cc 1/2 Unit Markings 100 Count
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The BD are the ones I used. The "fat" on Tyler doesn't matter as far as gauge is concerned. The 6mm needle length might be problem but 8mm will be fine. You've been using a 12.7mm needle I take it so if you are happy with that the Ulticare would be good too as long as they have half unit markings. I don't see that written on the package pic you posted.??? Also, not sure but anything labeled for vet use may come with an additional cost (specialty product) although the BD syringes weren't cheap here. I think a number of folks use the Relion syringes from Walmart if you have that option. They are very reasonably priced.
Diane, don’t mean to hijack your thread but ""............LINDA...if still on here , please take a look at Elmo SS and see what he did while we were gone
Hey Beth no problem I see that 79 @+6
Beth I might be switching to Lantus, not sure yet, do you see the pics if the syringes I posted, I would use the longer needles, which ones do you use for Elmo @Beth 73
Beth which syringe do you use for Elmo @Beth 73
I use the Ulticare but if I was switching I’d go with the Relion ....good syringes, many people on Board use them , not expensive and easily gotten at Wal Mart.....those Ulticare are the exact ones I use....got them from vet when first diagnosed and don’t know why I did t switch when I switched to Relion meter from AT ....
And you don't ask too many questions ❤️ You are like me .. I just want to get things straight in my head and need lots of clarification . We seem to think alike
Funny I just looked on line for the Relion syringes at Wal Mart and nothing comes up @Beth 73 I just searched and it looks like you have to go in to Wal Mart in person, someone else here said they don't show up on line. Beth I just looked on the Lantus forum and it lists other syringes cheaper than the Ulticare just in case you wanted to look . what does to prime the pen mean if you are not going to use a syringe mean
Do you refrigerate the pen after you use it, what about any unopened pens do you refrigerate. I was just reading the 2 different protocols for Lantus, oh my god, I think I will really screw Tyler up, so much different than using them Vetsulin, Can I still use my Alpha Trak 2 pet meter with Lantus
Diane , you will not mess Tyler up .❤️ You know I used vetsulin the first time then Lantau this time so I know where you are coming from . I'll tell you how I do it that works for me ...1. Don't know anything ab Relion syringes except people on Lantus Board do use them . You may have to go to a store to get them . 2. I use a lantus pen and all you do is remove the cap, stick needle in sponge end and draw insulin out 3. I keep the pen in the frig just for my peace of mind . I know it doesn't HAVE to be refrigerated, I just do ...cos I'm a cautious kookie 4. I know the two protocols are confusing at first ... I do best when I write things out simply in steps. That's what I did with the protocols so I could understand them better. And you have the BEST helper in the world, Linda, that can explain it to you as she did to me . Hope this helped you . I know if you switch you will do great ! Sending prayers and hugs to you and Ashley ❤️ It all sounds far more confusing than it is . I'm here so fire away with any questions and know I asked the same questions
Thanks so much Beth, yes I think we are two peas in a pod when it comes to needing lots of clarification lol, worry warts. Can I still use my Alpha Track 2 pet meter with Lantus, or do I have to switch to a human meter @Beth 73
@MrWorfMen's Mom hey Lady
SUNDAY 11-24 -19
PMPS - 168 Shooting 0.75 skinny @MrWorfMen's Mom
Diane, you absolutely can still use AT meter. I switched cos strips soooo expensive. I switched to Relion meter and strips ( again from WM) because of cost and easy availability . Two peas in a pod That's us , Diane ❤️ Poor Linda
I know poor Linda, I feel like I drive her crazy sorry Linda @MrWorfMen's Mom .I will probably switch to a human meter eventually because I'm going broke here, now that will be another thing to learn lol
I like the human meter better ... maybe cos strips are cheaper . Had to not mentally compare the AT to the human ...it was an easy transition and so much cheaper . I know others who keep the AT to use from time to time take tests for the vet .....my vet doesn't care that I don't use AT ...it's just too darn expensive to use daily like we do .
I would just have to learn the different readings right? Oh I read it said if you use a syringe instead of the pen you don't have to prime the pen, what the heck does that mean @Beth 73
I have no clue ab priming ...I don't do it ...Linda will know ❤️ And when I switched meters I never used the AT again unless vet wanted numbers . I couldn't have both sets of numbers running loose in this head of mine .
OK thanks , the numbers would drive me crazy also
I wound up liking Covidien Monojects much more than BD Ultrafines, better quality. And, if that's what you like, they are available with 1/2" (12mm) needles. Try this place which tends to have good prices:
Ignore all the manufacturer's instructions about using the pen. Treat it like a mini-vial, except for not pushing air in.
@MrWorfMen's Mom - Thanks for pointing Diane my way. We're PMing.
Thank you Tom, I will have a lot to learn when I switch over @Tom & Thomas (GA) yes I saw those
Monoject Ultra Comfort U-100 Insulin Syringes 29G 3/10cc 1/2" 100/bx
I have always ordered my U40 syringes from them. Tom my U40 syringes say 12.7 mm length 1/2 inch and are 29 gauge , 3/10 cc 0.3 ml. So the U100 here are just like my U40's ? So these would be longer than 8mm that I listed above with the pictures @Tom & Thomas (GA)
Yes, the length and gauge will be the same as what you're used to. I noticed earlier in the thread that you use a 1/2" needle, which was also my preference. I went back-and-forth between 1/2" and 5/16", and settled on the longer needle.
First of all girls, if you were driving me crazy, I would have gone AWOL! You are both a delight and it's my pleasure to helps out. I'm having fun doing it. We're three peas in a pod me thinks!
Lantus can be left out of the refrigerator HOWEVER while it may remain stable for slightly more than the suggested 28 days, it won't last nearly as long as possible if don't refrigerate it. Kept in the fridge you can use up the entire pen.....out of the fridge you'd probably find it loses it's potency before it's all gone.
I never refrigerated mine when Menace was on copious doses (6u when I switched to Levemir, 16u tops) but I used up a pen before the month was over. I started refrigerating the insulin when Menace finally got down to more normal doses that to me were teensy weeny!).
When a human is using the pen with the pen needles as their injection device, you have to set the dose and then pump the pen to load the specific dose of insulin into the injection mechanism. You don't have to pump it when using the pen like a vial with syringes.
As a die hard pet meter user who finally switched over to a human meter, it's no big deal to switch. And the numbers actually look lower so it's good for the soul! HAHAHAHA! Just don't think that X on the pet meter will = y on the human meter because it just doesn't work that way. The human meter will read lower and the difference between readings gets greater the higher the BG. I did an insane amount of comparison testing but that was just me and my OCD nature of having to prove stuff for myself. I comparison tested all through Menace's OTJ because there is no guide here for acceptable BG to know when you're at that point with a pet meter. It let me know that while the OTJ instructions say the aim is for a totally green SS, it just isn't going to happen with a pet meter but the kitty can still be ready for an OTJ trial.
Learning to use Lantus is relatively easy. There are instructions written out and a lot of folks who can help guide you when needed. I think Tyler would do very well and might even get a golden ticket one day if you get my drift.....Antijinx.
@MrWorfMen's Mom we are 3 peas in a pod from now on.
I hope the Lantus will be better for Tyler
No you are a pleasure and a delight, you are very patient with us and I can't thank you enough, from now on we are the three musketeers Another question, you said
. I comparison tested all through Menace's OTJ because there is no guide here for acceptable BG to know when you're at that point with a pet meter. It let me know that while the OTJ instructions say the aim is for a totally green SS,( it just isn't going to happen with a pet meter but the kitty can still be ready for an OTJ trial.) Does this mean if I don't use a human meter I won't know if he will start to go into remission. I don't understand what you are trying to tell me about the pet meter vs the human meter in your paragraph I copied @MrWorfMen's Mom
@MrWorfMen's Mom morning Linda
AMPS - 211 Shooting 0.75 skinny @MrWorfMen's Mom
Good Monday morning, Diane .... that's us... 3 peas in a pod Praying surprise blessings over your and Ashley's day
@MrWorfMen's Mom hey Linda please take a look st my question #48 about what you said about pet meter vs a human, I don't understand it thanks
One other think I was reading about Lantus and wondered what this meant
When dosing cats, there can be more negatives to using pen needles with an insulin pen than positives:
Inability to administer doses in increments of 0.25 - 0.50 units with pens.
Forgetting to "prime" the pen prior to each use will result in a smaller dose than intended. Priming the pen involves wasting 2 units of insulin for every shot.
What does priming mean, not that I will use the pen needle
I also read you don't shake or roll the pen @MrWorfMen's Mom
The BG reference numbers provided in the documentation here are based on human meter readings. Since pet meters read higher, there are times when it can be challenging to know exactly what to do based on pet meter numbers, the OTJ trial reference numbers being the ones I found the most problematic. There are those of us who have used a pet meter for long enough that we have a "feel" for the differences and know we will not meet the criteria in the OTJ trial instructions exactly as written. You do not have to switch over to a human meter but you will not find specific reference numbers for the pet meter in the majority of the documentation. Not having specific reference numbers means that sometimes you will have to adjust your reference numbers somewhat but those of us who have used a pet meter can assist with that.
There is no doubt that it is easier to use a human meter because all the criteria laid out for when to do what is clearly provided and a human meter works just as well as a pet meter. Human meters have been used for pets far longer than pet meters which are a relatively new innovation.
The choice is yours. If you really like your AT2 but are willing to switch meters, there is a human meter identical to it (AT2 modelled on the human meter) that will make the transition nothing more than different numbers.
Got it I understand, what does forgetting to prime the pen mean if you should use the pen needle just curious and I see you don't shake or roll langue, if I do switch to human meter which one are you referring to that's similar to the AT2 @MrWorfMen's Mom
You don't need to concern yourself with that at all 'cause you won't be using a pen needle. Not applicable to felines.....only hooomans!
The human meter I used that is identical is the Freestyle Freedom Lite. It's blue instead of Pinky purple but otherwise exactly the same. That said, other meters have cheaper strips but if you were prepared to use your pet meter the switch to the Freestyle is still a savings.
And yes, no shake, roll or anything with Lantus.
Thank you Linda, and I'm sorry for bugging the hell out of you, I bet you can't wait
until I talk to my vet and she agrees on the lantus , then all the questions I will have, I have been reading all the information about lantus, I think you will go AWOL on me @MrWorfMen's Mom
@Beth 73 morning Beth as you can see I am driving Linda crazy. Beth what human meter do I you use for Elmo
Will be back have to charge this tablet and give Perry his meds
I'd rather have someone ask the same question twenty times than for someone to pretend they understand and then goof up. I'm not going AWOL!
you are the best
Sorry Diane ...I’ll get back in a bit ...Elmo has decided to dive so am dealing with him
No problem take care of Elmo
Diane, I use a Relion Prime and Relion Prime strips ... very affordable and easily purchased at WM .... when I first switched I was tempted to take one read with AT and then another with the Relion but I stopped that ... went cold turkey with just Relion ...that's what worked for me .
Thank you Beth, going crazy reading revires for all different meters.one question sometimes I read other people's posts that use himan meters and I see they are saying their cat tested 22.7 or 18.6 numbers like this. Aren't they supposed to be what I see on the pet meter like 182, 106 do you know what I mean. Are these people using different things on their site. Is Elmo ok for example go to the alerts and look at the one from Tania C it's under your alert to me @MrWorfMen's Mom me again, sorry Linda can you tell me about the numbers I am asking about
Diane , I don’t know what these people are using . The Relion is very comparable number wise to AT.... the lower the number the closer the AT and Relion are to each other....these may be people in Europe ...Linda will know ❤️
Ok thanks Beth but do you see what I mean
Oh Diane. It figures you'd find one of us Canadians, Aussies or Brits etc. to look at numbers. We don't use your scale of BG (nor does most of the planet) so our numbers look odd to you and vice versa. If you take a number like 22.7 and multiply it by 18, you will get your US number of 409. If I take a US number like 182, in my scale of measure it would be 10.1 mmol. If you see odd numbers like that, switch tabs on the SS to the US sheet because our SS do an auto conversion so US folks can help us when needed. The rest of us have to learn to deal with your US numbers.
I used your scale in my early nursing days so I know both scales but prefer yours (resistent to change I guess) so I got myself a US meter to make my life easier but then I had to rework my spreadsheet so my vet could understand it!
@MrWorfMen's Mom I am laughing my butt off right, saying it figures I would find that, can't stop laughing, it wasn't even on a SS that I saw it, it was in someone's post. Thanks for letting me know. With all my questions I feel like giving up and just sticking with the vetsulin and pet meter, I feel like I will be a pain in the butt with all my questions like TR, or SLGS I can just see me know, learning about Depot, letting it drain and when Tyler earns a reduction all the new stuff that goes along with Lantus
P.S. I'm moving to Canada and you can take care of Tyler lol
And you and Ashley too although there will be times you will have to do lunch room duty making sure my little extra sweet girl who inhales her food, doesn't pilfer her brother's food. It drives me nuts standing in the kitchen tapping my foot with my arms crossed waiting for the slow poke boys to finish their meals. Can't make noise because the middle child gets spooked and walks away from his dish. BORING! LOL!
You are too funny, I can just picture you standing there with your arms crossed waiting for the boys to finish, I can picture it now. If I switch to Lantus do you think I will get the in knack of what to do, I'm very nervous about it, or even just switching to a human meter dont worry we will keep an eye on sweet Menace and won't make any noise so the middle child doesn't get spooked, you know that Ashley will be quiet for sure, you better not desert me lol @MrWorfMen's Mom
Oh, the lives we lead !!!! Right now I have Ben closed in bedroom with spare kitty Boo ...she is a fiesty tortie who has decided her days of being shuttled from room to room to accommodate Gpa Elmo are over . Thankfully she and Ben get along and when Elmo has gone on to Kitty Heaven she will be free to roam the house .
Diane, if I can do it you for sure can ❤️ Absolutely no doubt. Just can't over think ....and I'll be right with you , saying " I don't know, Diane...let's ask Linda"
You are right about that, so you have 2 other kitties @Beth 73
Lol we are going to drive Linda to drink I have a new title for the 3 of us how about The Golden Girls (the TV show) lol @MrWorfMen's Mom @Beth 73
Works for me!
Love the Golden Girls ... no nonsense, tell it like it is ..the best !!! Diane ,,we have 3 other kitties here at the house ...Ben,16( Brother Chris passed away a few weeks ago ) , Boo , 2 ( little tortie that showed up under our deck as a baby ) and Tuffy, 2 ( found by my DH as the only surviving kitten from a barn litter ) ...then we still have a shy/feral girl , Baby,5 at our office ....she is slowly warming up to us but happiest by herself .. found her and siblings as babies ..rest have found homes .....THEN I feed a feral ish colony near our old office building ...10 of them ....take care of them with help of guy who works at nearby Radio Shack .....wheeeew, that's a lots a cats
@MrWorfMen's Mom Hi my other Golden Girl
PMPS - 184 Shooting 0.75 skinny In case you missed #68 @MrWorfMen's Mom
Thank you for being a friend
Traveled down the road and back again
Your heart is true your a pal and a confidant.
And if you through a party
Invited everyone you ever knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say thank you for being a friend
We are three crazy cat ladies lol @MrWorfMen's Mom
@Beth 73 holy cow that is a lot of kitties so sorry about Chris, so very sorry. that's wonderful you feed all those kitties, such a loving lady you are!
How is Elmo today after that dive today.
I trust you meant 0.75u.
Oops my bad, will fix it now
I panicked and gave too high of carbs too quickly so he popped up to high again ..sigh...but it was good to see blues and greens .. glad he still has it in him... we shall soldier on
@MrWorfMen's Mom @Beth 73
Do you the cardboard cat scratchers that you put in the floor for them, they scratcher lays inside a box and then when you need a new one you just buy one and lay it back in the cardboard box,
I have one that's not it in a box and Tyler likes to sleep on it, so I took the other one out of the box and put it next to the other on so he can have more room to fit his chubby body on, have to be honest he's fat lol
So look at what he did, stuffed his body in the empty cardboard box that was empty, he is something else, I cracked up when I saw this
Cats and boxes oh my! I have a couple who try to fit themselves into Kleenex boxes they'd be lucky to get their heads in much less their bodies. Love the pic! Go Tyler!
Get out of here lol they are crazy
Awwwww, sweetie pie Tyler ❤️ Mine love all boxes but their favs are the latest Chewy box that I lay on its side and they use them like personnel forts
@MrWorfMen's Mom morning Linda
AMPS - 165 Shooting 0.75 skinny @MrWorfMen's Mom
Morning Beth why do we even bother buying them beds right lol
@MrWorfMen's Mom just to let you know its going to be almost 60 degrees here today
Having problems posting with pc this am. Will be out most of day. Talk tonight.
Good morning Diane and Linda ❤️ Storms coming here so if I fade out for a bit it's cos we've lost our Ozarks Hillbilly internet Sending hugs and prayers for this wonderful new day ❤️
And Linda, have your tech assistant ( aka HRH Menace) check out your PC since she is so skilled in that area ❤️
Just trying this again to see if it's working now.
Well la dee dah. Now it's working fine. ARRRGGGGHH! And I was wondering if Miss Menace had somehow done something REALLY sinister to my laptop! She is bound, bet and determined to "help" me do anything on the computer these days. And apparently the keyboard is quite a comfy warm spot to sleep too!
Gotta go deal with leaves in the yard. Talk later.
Told ya , Linda ....HRH Menace ...tech support extraordinaire ❤️
Just had to do battle with a raccoon sitting on the chair on my deck totally and completely undisturbed by me or the young man helping me making noise, kicking the chair etc. Finally had to poke him in the butt with a broom handle. Looks healthy but bold as they come. Finally got him to mosey off...... and now my helper just broke the rake....SIGH! If ain't one thing it's another today. I think I should go back to bed and get up later and start over again. I am laughing as I type this because it's just too crazy to believe!
....oh , Linda , I can see it all in my fertile imagination That's a hoot !!! When it's not fun , ya gotta make it funny Btw, going to eye doc at 2:00 for checkup of floaters and flashers Getting older ain't for the faint
Diane ... hope all is well ❤️
Oh Lord, you are having a very interesting day, I will believe anything.
@MrWorfMen's Mom Hey Lady
PMPS - 160 Going with 0.75 skinny Heads up I will start a new thread tomorrow morning TYLER'S JOURNEY #20 @MrWorfMen's Mom
Hope everything went OK with your eye doctor's appointment
Oh thanks, Diane❤️ Everything checked out fine but not until after the most prodding and examining I've ever gone thru at eye doc. She wanted to make sure my retina was in good shape and not starting to detach , which it wasn't . Bonus is I found a really cute pair of glasses that I'll get later. Have always wanted 2 pair . Hope your day went well . It's stormy here ..under tornado watch til midnight
Glad to hear everything went well, getting another pair of glasses that are cute is always exciting. Tornado watch, hoity cow. Be safe
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