Wynken, still high (and flat)... yet unpredictable

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Cara and Wynken (GA), Dec 20, 2015.

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  1. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Well, I thought I would start a new thread.

    Yesterday I wasn't around as much as I wanted to be but I did get a few data points. Last night I gave a lower dose because his pre-shot reading was a little low and I was leaving for 3 hour dinner. Of course when I got home last night, he was high. :( Today, I have been home all day and really discouraged that the readings are not coming down using 2.2u this morning.

    One week ago, on the 13th, he reacted to the insulin like I would expect a cat should react to insulin. That would be good to see more of, right? I'm so discouraged that his response seems unpredictable. Sometimes the insulin brings his blood sugar down and sometimes it doesn't. Can anyone give me any insight into what they think is going on here?

    He's felt very good today, seemingly. So that's good. It's cold here so he hasn't gone outside. Just snoozing off & on, and he let me comb him (he loves being combed and also vacuumed :p). Oh, and I should add he is being an angel during the ear-warming and poking. Loves that warm rice sock!

    Thanks...
     
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  2. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yesterday's dose on the 403 looked good. I am thinking the 1.6 could have been too little for the pmps. But I have no good ideas for today's cycle. The dose looked good and he didn't budge....

    There are several confusing cycles. 12/17. 2.2 on the red should have been fine but it gave you a low amps. 12/13 was beautiful and if that pattern was consistent, it would look like a good dose. There is no way he could have gotten into anything high carb on those weirder cycles?

    IF you could get a nadir daily, I think I'd try 2.4 on 350+ and 2.2 on 250-350 and 2 on 200 - 250. But I am nervous suggesting being that aggressive if you can't monitor because he is so inconsistent.

    Let's see if @Robin&BB will take a look.
     
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  3. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, late to the party.
    Taking a look at this now ...
     
  4. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    (Oops, was looking at your previous thread and accidentally posted there, so will repeat my question here.)
    Have you been testing for ketones, Cara? How close are we to his PMPS now? (As I'm still pondering this ...)
     
  5. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    I am just about to go check his PMPS, now. I have read about checking for ketones and I know I would need to be able to check his urine. However, I never see him in the litter box. I'm just not out on the sunporch enough to catch him in the litter box. Even when I sit out there and drink my coffee on the weekends I seldom see him in there. I thought about checking his blood ketones using a meter… But I'm unsure if that is good? Is it?
     
  6. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    The conventional wisdom, based on today's cycle would be for you to up the dose a bit. However ... his patterns are, in a word (and to quote @Sue and Oliver (GA)), confusing.And today he stayed pretty much high and flat. Which makes me wonder what the heck is really going on with him ...

    And I have another concern, and here it is: If you are still feeding both Wynken and his sister from the same bowl at mealtimes, I can't believe that he's really only eating half of that total amount in the bowl. Here's why: He weighs 14.7 lbs, correct? And didn't you tell me his sister weighs about 6 to 7 lbs? So she's half of his weight or less ... and if she's eating half of that amount in the bowl at mealtimes (getting the same amount that Wynken is when he actually weighs twice as much as she does) it would seem to me that she should be gaining weight if she's eating that much of the ration. Also, it does not appear that Wynken is losing any weight either - which I suspect he may possibly need to do.
    If these were my two kitties (and I know you have others to deal with, but maybe could work it so that you can stay in the the room you have set up for Wynken and his sister at the time they eat), I would be feeding Wynken the appropriate amount for his target weight in a separate bowl.
    And feed his sister whatever amount she should have for her weight (I'd assume her being 6 to 7 lbs is fine - didn't you say she's a smallish girl?)
    in a bowl all her own. Certainly they'll both still eat as long as they're in the same room together, right? And if you're in there with them, you can make sure he doesn't just move over to her bowl after he's finished with his.

    I know this may be a bit of a pain, Cara, but I just think that trying something like this - if that's at all possible for you to do - may help you rule out something - overeating at mealtimes - that could be impacting how he's processing the insulin.

    @Sue and Oliver (GA) - Any additional thoughts?
     
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  7. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    No, there is no way for him to get other food, unless it's a bird or a mouse from outside. As you can imagine that's not very frequent…

    I like your suggestion for dosing, and agree that it's somewhat aggressive. If I have to I will come home from lunch every day at +5 and check. That will be easier to do over the next two weeks with so many people absent from work. I will also get up in the middle of the night and check him.
     
  8. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Well you are probably completely correct. I think after 12 years of eating off the same plate it would be a little weird to change for them. But if that's what needs to happen, I guess that's what I will need to do. She weighs 6 1/2 pounds, as of tonight. I have been observing them while they have been eating a lot more than normal, and what I have observed is they go back-and-forth as to who is eating at any given time. They start off eating together with their head side-by-side but then one of them leaves, and then they take turns. There actually seems to be elaborate rituals with eye contact and even occasional tapping of paws to the head or shoulder to indicate it's time to switch.

    So, I completely agree that he is probably eating varying amounts. I probably will never be able to observe this firsthand. The only thing I can think is that I would have to take her and put her in a large carrier with her plate, and leave him with the plate that has his portion while I go and take care of all the other cats. And then come back and let her out. I'm not sure how well she would Tolerate this…?
     
  9. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Well, it's sure worth a good try, Cara. Even if one of them tries to mount a temporary "hunger strike," when a kitty gets hungry enough, he or she will eat. And if you don't give in to a kitty temper-tantrum, believe me ... the striking kitty will eat by your new rules once the tummy is really growling.;)
     
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  10. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    I'd say that you probably need to go with Sue's suggestion on the dose tonight: 2.4U, given the PMPS you just got. Any chance you'll be able to test somewhere around mid-cycle tonight?
     
  11. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Cara, how often does he go out? Is there any chance he is eating some high carb at the neighbors?
     
  12. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Ketones: Oliver would never let us watch him in the litter box. To get a sample, we cleaned the box and filled it with aquarium gravel. We'd leave him in the room with it and he'd have to "christen" it. Then we could swoop in and get our test.
     
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  13. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Both of these kitties are deaf, and so I would never let them actually roam the great outdoors. I had to look back to find a picture of them in their enclosure and it was in much nicer weather. They basically have a 12 x 30' fenced yard with very high walls and chicken wire at the top the curls over and prevents them from leaving. So unless someone is bringing them spaghetti… He shouldn't be able to get any extra carbs! I live in the country, and although there are neighbors on either side of me, I know both of them and no one comes and gives them anything.
     

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  14. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I like that visual - a neighbor offering spaghetti to Wynken on the sly.....
     
  15. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Sue and Robin - I can't tell you how much all of the suggestions mean to me. :bighug: I think all of these things need to be taken into account. Especially, and I have to think about it: controlling what his food intake is. I have to admit that for years I've had a naïve assumption that basically they were splitting the one plate of food in a way that made sense for their body weights. Although that IS somewhat corroborated by the fact that they remain pretty stable in their individual weights... To be completely honest, on a day-to-day basis I have no idea if he's eating three fourths of what I put down or only one third of what I put down. Here are photos I took of them tonight while they were eating.
    image.jpg image.jpg
    Although I think they may have a hard time adjusting, I have been thinking about how to separate them at meal time ever since Robin first suggested it… And I think what I will try is putting an enclosure that I used to keep some Foster kittens in inside their room and I will feed her inside that enclosure. That way I will be able to monitor how much she is eating, and he is eating.

    Tonight, I gave 2.2u. I will not be able to get up tonight as easily as I will later in the week, so I will start the dosing that Sue suggested tomorrow morning and check him at lunch and in the middle of the night whenever I'm giving those higher dosages. Sound good?
     
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  16. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Yep!
     
  17. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    I've had to separate mine before during feeding time...due to one being on meds that would make her eat everything. I just gave them their own rooms during food time. It's worth a try...especially if you have a little enclosure for one. You did say they eat all the food at once right? I'd think they would get used to it over some time. :)
     
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  18. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    @Sue and Oliver (GA) @Robin&BB @Rachel I am feeling good about this plan.

    I went and got the kitten cage and wheeled it into their room... My plan is to leave doors open for a couple days and their heated cat pad beds have been moved onto its floor. I put Blynken's favorite white bunny on the upper shelf and will give them both intermittent dehydrated Orijen treats in there. I put Wynken's blood-check bench in front of it, and in the next day or two I will start feeding her breakfast in there on the upper shelf. After all the other chores are done (30-40 min in the morning and about an hour at night) I will go in and let her out, and take up both (hopefully empty!) plates... Or at least see how much he has left, or eaten. Yay!:joyful:

    I want to be sure she has positive associations with being in there before I start, though. Thanks again for this idea! This is the only way I can actually envision portion control working in my crazy household. :cat:
     

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  19. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Very smart thinking! And - wow! - you have quite the setup there for your winter-white "twins." I'm impressed!!!:)
    I will be thinking lots & lots of good thoughts for you - for a successful change in feeding routine to help you in getting Wynken regulated.
    (And figured out. Tell Wynk that Auntie R says, "Ok ... please get with the program, mister. Otherwise we will have to nickname you "Mr. Wonky!":p)
     
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  20. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Thanks Robin! I will tell him. :D He really shouldn't have much problem with the new set up. It's little Blynk that has to adjust... Which I hope she will!

    You know, they were the same size when they were infants. There was actually a time before they grew two adult size that I couldn't tell them apart other than her eyes were closer together. Then he got much bigger and he's very large framed. She has always been extremely tiny.

    I actually call them Little and Big, but it's kinda silly, since they are deaf they don't even hear me, and don't know their names. I did teach them a little tiny bit of sign language. They know when I crouch down and wiggle my right hand back-and-forth in a certain way that they should come. I taught them this because I wanted them to know that they should come to me, so I rewarded them coming with treats. They do "listen" to this hand signal most of the time, but like all cats they also ignore me when they feel like it. :rolleyes:
     
  21. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    How cool you taught them sign language! And they ignore you, just like a cat who hears.
     
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  22. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Well, of COURSE. They are cats!!! ;)
     
  23. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Bat-Bat has taught me her version of hand signals ... only she does it with her tail. Wags it just like a dog does whenever she's eating. Straight up in the air - with a question-mark at the tip - when I come in the front door after being out for a while, as though she's asking, "Where were you, and what did you do out there?" But mostly she shows me one that, if she were actually using a hand, would have something to do with an upraised middle finger. I kid you not: I know that cranky old kitty o' mine is literally flipping me off with her TAIL! :p
     
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  24. Carol & Murphy

    Carol & Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Sorry - reading this thread and just had to chime in - Cara - I love the visual of the feeding ritual of your cats with the eye contacts and shoulder taps - I'm sad that has to be broken up - but sounds like you are coming up with a good plan - fingers crossed!!
     
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  25. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    That is the cutest enclosure for them! I love it. I think your plan of the positive associations is a good one. Get them used to it so they like going in there!
     
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  26. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    That is absolutely hilarious!!! They always find a way to let us know what they think, don't they? :rolleyes:
     
  27. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Ok peeps - they love the enclosure and I gave her some Orijen freeze dried treats in there last night and also today at lunch when I checked Wynk's BG. So tonight I went ahead and fed them seperately. He ate fine on the floor, in the regular spot and ate 95% of what I put down. She seemed lost but finally "got it" and ate a little more than half her food. After almost 30 min, I let her out, and took away both plates. Since she had some left, I assume he normally would have eaten that. Fast forward to +3..... I decide I need to check him in case he's low BG. Since the dose was 2.2. But he's freekin FIVE EIGHTEEN!!!! :banghead:
     
  28. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    What? That makes no sense. Did you retest - just in case it was a wonky test?

    I have no explanation for that, but I am glad the separate feeding worked and think it should help in the long run.
     
  29. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    I know Sue. NO sense... I will retest here in 30 min or so. Before bed. He feels fine. Odd!!!!!
     
  30. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    527. Scary. What should I do @Sue and Oliver (GA) ? I feel like I should give more insulin... I have never done that though. I have never tested this often, either. :(
     
  31. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Any chance it was a fur shot?

    I just don't think I'd give another shot. I don't know why he is so high but giving another shot is just too chancy. You can shoot early in the am - +10 or later. But it'd mess up your overall schedule, right?
     
  32. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    No, I have a little shaved area and I always rub and check... Man. I am really upset. How high will he go? Do I worry about DKA? I can't even measure for ketones...

    As far as shooting early, yes that could be problematic. But if I shot 2 hours early in the am, and then one hour early in the pm, we would be back on schedule, right?
     
  33. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    That should work, Cara.
     
  34. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Ok. Trying not to freak out here. I tried to smell his breath,.. Not sure I would smell ketones( I'm a chemist, so I know what they smell like). Is there ANYTHING else I can do for him?
     
  35. Likameow

    Likameow Member

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    Could the high number at +3 be a food spike? I know that with Ben, he doesn't usually start dropping until closer to the +5 mark. He's had cycles where his +3 was a lot higher than his PS number.
     
  36. Likameow

    Likameow Member

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    Try to relax, Cara. High blood sugar numbers doesn't have to mean high ketones. Ben has been off the charts 600+ on his sugars and never had ketones in his urine.
     
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  37. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    I don't know, Lisa... Maybe. I tested at +3 because I expected him to be LOW (not as low as nadir) because of feeding less, and lower carb (slightly) and a bit more insulin.
     
  38. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Ok, thanks. I used to test occasionally but nothing like the frequency since joining the group again earlier this month. I was blind shooting, mostly. Discovering he's "all over the place " with blood sugar is upsetting to me. I'm tired though and going to turn in. Almost MN here. Thanks!!
     
  39. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Cara, I know those high numbers are scary. But try not to let them freak you out. For now, let's chalk it up to a wonky cycle..that happens. It could be due to any number of things...a bit of stomach upset, hairball, or as Sue says, "Oh a squirrel!" syndrome.

    Ketones usually develop due to not enough insulin, not enough food, and some sort of infection. You don't have all those problems. I'm not saying you shouldn't grab a ketone test when you can (it's good to keep up with that to be sure) but I wouldn't panic about it.

    You're doing fine! Hugs!
     
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  40. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Cara - Just read through last night's posts. Peeked @ Wynken's SS ... and it sure looks to me like a strong possibility that his dose last night @ PMPS turned out to be a fur-shot. It just happens sometimes: Heck, I accidentally gave Bat two fur-shots in a row a few days ago! (AMPS and PMPS on Saturday, ugh. :banghead::banghead: )

    Now that you're feeding Wynk & Blynk in separate dishes:), could you you note the actual amount (in oz.) that Wynken eats @ each meal in the "Remarks" section of your SS? That would be helpful info to have. Thanks!:bighug:
     
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  41. Lynn & Rupert

    Lynn & Rupert Well-Known Member

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    Beautiful kitties! Nice catio too!
     
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  42. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    Thank you all got continuing to advise and calm me. :bighug:

    Robin, I guess it's possible I didn't get the insulin in his last night, but since I can see the needle on his shaved patch(es) and I always rub the spot and smell my hand, I really don't think so... I have shot "outside the cat" before, and that's why have the shaved spots and the rubbing routine...

    He was high at lunch today. I think every day about the toll that months of being high sugar is taking on his kidneys. :oops:

    I will start posting his portion amount. Should I weigh it (easy enough with my kitchen scale?) or just estimate the amount I am splitting out from the can for him?
     
  43. Robin&BB

    Robin&BB Well-Known Member

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    I have always just divided portions up in the can by 1/8 or 1/4 sections (you know, like when you cup up a pie for dessert). I just used a calculator: For example, with a 5.5 oz. can. 1/4 can = 1.375 oz.; with a 3 oz. can (like Fancy Feast is supplied), 1/4 can = 0.75 oz. & 1/8 can = 0.375 oz. That's been an easy way for me to do it! ;)
     
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  44. Cara and Wynken (GA)

    Cara and Wynken (GA) Member

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    For the pate I agree that would be easy but not so much for Tiki. (Zero carb, meat shreds in juice/broth). I will try to estimate it though. :confused:
     
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