1/16 Spicey Pmps #s

1-12-10
Pmps 521 - 1 unit pzi vet 9pm
+ 4 - 317

1-13-10
Amps 298- 1 unit pzi vet 8 am
+10 - 198
Pmps 229 - .5 unit pzi vet 8:30 pm
+2 - 399
+4 342

1-14-10
Amps 486 - 1 unit pzi vet 8:30 am

Pmps 417 - 1 unit pzi vet 8 pm
+2 - 216
+5 - 56
+5.5 - 51
+6.5 - 48
+7 - 64

1-15-10
Amps 241 - .5 unit pzi vet 10am

Pmps 596 - .5 unit pzi vet 8:30 pm
+3.5 403 No food

1-16-10
Amps 374 - .5 unit pzi vet 8am
+10 280

Pmps 282 - .5 unit pzi vet 8pm

Hello Everyone,
I am sure glad i did not decide on the 1 unit after seeing this pattern. And as far as the food goes she has been free fed. I need to find something comparable to the wet canned friskies special diet beef and chicken. Doen't have to be that flavor. Prefer chicken or turkey. I want to avoid any fish or beef. I looked at the charts and printed it out but any ideas or suggestions would be helpful. I would like to stay in the price range of the friskies. Will try working on the spreadsheet tonite or tommorrow.

I also want to keep on eye on spicey's +3 numbers a little worried she might go to low i think i will get a better picture of what is happening then. Hopefully she will eat a little more by then, she usually does.

 

she just ate 2 grams of the wet friskies special diet beef and chicken. Hope she will eat a little more through the nite.

David

 

Glad you are sticking with the .5. It looks like it's working. It can take several days sometimes to see if have the correct dose on PZI.

You can try Friskies Spec. Diet Turkey & Giblets. Its low carb and low phosphorus.

Hope Spicey stays in the good numbers.

 

She is doing very well on that .5u, David. I am so glad to see that

As far as flavors of Friskies SD that are low carb, there are several of them.
Beef & Chicken, Beef & Liver, Turkey & Giblets, Salmon,& Ocean Whitefish.
I cannot find most of these flavors on any grocery store, pet food store, or Wal-Mart shelf - so I usually order them by the case from petfooddirect.com when there is a good coupon posted, or they are on sale.
(You can check the Supply Closet for posts that have discount codes available for PFD.)

Another alternative is PetsMart brand, Sophisticat Special Diet foods.
Just look for the same exact flavors as the Friskies SD noted above.
They are a few cents a can cheaper than the Friskies SD canned.

HTH,
~M

 

is low phosphorus good or bad?

 

Do you have a kitty with urinary tract issues? If so, low is good.
Since Stormy Blue is diet controlled diabetic with kidney issues,
everything that I feed my 6 cats is low carb and low phos.

~M

 

Yes Diva my 16 year old is prone to them and Spicey on her new years eve hypo found ou she had u UTI.

 

Is there any reason you're feeling the secial diets? Unless your cat has secific urinary issues, or CRF.. you can feed the regular Friskies pate foods that are low in carbs. My cats wouldn't eat the lower phos foods, so we stuck with the regular Friskies.

Sorry, having trouble with my 'p' key being missing on my keyboard tonight! My pinky is getting sore from having to stick it in the hole to type out the p's! :razz:

 

I feed all six cats the exact same diet.
Low carb, canned food is good for EVERYONE.
Low phos benefits Stormy Blue.

And, now matter how careful I might be, some way, some how - he will get into the other cats' food.
So, it is just safer to feed them all the same exact diet. Saves me a lot of trouble & worry.

~M

 

David... great numbers!! And hey, it's hard to see this here but the drop becomes smoother as the insulin settles. It really looks as if that small dose is helping her and will continue to do so. She might have a bit of pancreas action and as the preshots get lower you may find you have to lower her dose even more... We'll see. But it's looking very good right now. I'm sure she feels better and will do even better tomorrow. Good job!

As for foods... see what the prices are on the bigger cans... sometimes you can get a better brand like Wellness in a big can for the same price as a few littler cans. And if you are going to mix with water and freeze them in order to leave some out for her, there will be no difference in consistency (some cats don't like food from the big cans on the second day). Having said that, you might not have to worry about that if you are going to feed more than one of your crew the same type of food - you'll go through the bigger cans faster than a one-cat family.

 

I switched to the wet special diet because of price more food for buck and it looked good as far as ingredients went before I knew that it was low carb for my diabitic Spicey.

That is good to know on the friskies pate foods. I hope your finger is ok.

Victoria, who sells the Wellness brand?

David

 

I agree Mary as I have seen it with spicey trying to get the others food, so they are all on low carb right now and the others i don't think like it very much.

 

Wellness, as well as other premium brands like EVO, which come in large cans, can be purchased at most pet supply places. I'm not sure what you have in the States, but places like Petsmart, Petcetera, Tisel's and Bosley's sell it up here.

 

The lower numbers you're seeing are undoubtedly the result of the diet change. Is she eating full meals of the Friskies now? Dr Lisa's rule of thumb is 15 calories per pound of lean body weight per day. So a 12 lb cat needs about 180 calories per day, or 1+ 5.5 oz. cans of Friskies. Is she eating that much?

Also, tonight you saw the same basic number at +10 and +12. A good practice to get into is to wait and test again until you see an obvious rise in numbers. With the diet change and an obviously functional pancreas, she could well be getting uber-duration, or more than 12 hours of coverage per shot. If you shoot before she drops, you'll get overlap or two shots working at the same time. That's not bad but you need to know if that's what you're doing.

 

Just make sure if you get Wellness, that is has the little yellow triangle on the label that says "grain free".
On Janet & Binky's food list, there is a column for phos count, too.

Here in Dallas, Petco sells Wellness, but not Evo. I have to get Evo from a specialty store.
I bet Petco carries Wellness in your neck of the woods, too.

Link to find where to find Evo cat foods: http://www.evopet.com/where-to-buy/
All of the Evo 95% meat canned cat foods, except Duck, are under 250mg phos - Duck is 252mg.
All of the Evo 95% meat canned cat foods are low carb. (4%, or less)

~M

 

Yea Dr. Lisa's rule.... Look it seems you really want to know everything. So here you go.

You need to know your kitty's weight. I wiegh H with this scale:
http://www.myweigh.com/scales/medium-sc ... ofessional

Then you can know the RER [resting energy requirement]. From that you can know the MER or maintenance energy requirement. It's basically 1.2 -/+ a bit = MER.

Again, I suggest reading SACN Chapter 6 here:
http://www.markmorrisinstitute.org/atta ... ts%20b.pdf

You will also learn something about phosphorous through this reading. That the P in just about every commercial diet is WAY too high. And the P in the raw with bones diets often promoted here is WAY WAY to much [1.7% P DM]. For instance the P in Wellness Turkey [one of the lower P foods] is 1.05% DM.

But at this point I don't think P is your biggest worry.

The Wellness no grain food is a good food [except for fat content]. Old Mother Hubbard are the fold who make it and now Holistic Select.

 

Terri, No Spicey does not eat that much per day nor do my other 3 kitties. I think that is why i am wandering about different flavors. They like the fancy feast except Spicey. And Spicey back in october seemed like she wasn't eating very much and that was confirmed after her new years eve hypo when i was closely watching her and after everyone here helping me i don't want to switch her food to something she will not like and that is bad for her. I thought about buying a variety and see which ones she likes best that is still low carb. You know finicky eaters.

David

 

Thanx Mary, It looks like I have 5 places that carry Evo.

 

Thanx Gator for the info

Mary do you feed your guys Evo.

Also Spicey when she first was diagnosed with diabities, I found out she doen't have any teeth except her fangs and i don't know how she lost them.

 

A couple of others that you might try are both Merrick brand:
Cowboy Cookout, 5% carbs, 203mg phos
Surf N Turf, 4% carbs, 228 phos

I do not buy them often because they don't come in the BIG cans (13.2oz)
and I am not paying a $1.50+ for a 5.5oz can of anything.
*IF* they are on sale, I will occasionally will buy a few of them.

~M

 

Terri, Thanx for the inf on +10 and + 12 and i did notice that they didn't go up very much. I hadn't thought about that and that is why i want a +4 test to see where she is at. I am hoping that she doesn't go to low for the amps shot because i was going to see if i could get a curve test. So i am hoping that they don't overlapp.

 

A lot of older cats lose teeth. Sort of like how people lose teeth when they never go to the dentist.
Cats need to have dental exams at least once a year after they get to be 7 years old, or so.
More often than that if you notice a cat having issues with their mouth.

Yes, I feed them all of the Evo 95% meats, (except duck), & the EVO Cat & Kitten.
They like the EVO Cat & Kitten & the EVO 95% Chicken & Turkey flavors the best of the Evos.

I also feed mine Wellness grain free Beef & Chicken, Chicken, and Turkey flavors - and they seem to prefer
the Beef & Chicken flavor of Wellnesses. All of these flavors are 4% carbs and under 230mg phos.

~M

 

Grrrr.....I just typed a post and it got eaten. Can't retype the whole thing so quickly.....

I rarely use numbers anymore or any equations. In *general* -

Too fat? Feed less.

Too thin? Feed more.

Caloric intake is the epitome of ECID.

Thanks for posting this. Which edition (year) is this from? It says "Chapter 11" at the start of paper.

 

Lisa, Just so you know if you are not aware under your feline diabities link that i just recieved and the link to SugarCats site says that the file is not here.

 

Dr. Lisa this is from the 4th ed. I know there is a new 5th ed that has just been released. Hopefully you have the $200 to tell me what the difference between the two ed are?

As far as I understand cats should have between 0.5 and 0.7 % DM P. The raw with bones that is common to http://www.catnutrition.org and the affiliated commercial diet of http://www.felinespride.com is 1.7% DM P. More than two times the recommended for cats.

Sorry if I'm "grrrr" ing you. :smile:

 

Thanks for the info.

Janet and I chatted about this when the new edition came out but neither of us felt inclined to fork over $200 for any book that supported such a high carb load for cats.

That may seem narrow-minded...and I will admit that it is.....but I still do not feel inclined to write a check for $200 for this book.

Most people know that I am a 'keep it simple' person and am strongly guided by nature and common sense when feeding my cats.

My mom also fed her family very well based on common sense....and did not need a $200 book to tell her how to feed all of us. And....we are all pretty darn health. (She did get Betty Crocker's help but I don't think she paid much for the book.)

 

Provocative dialog is never "grrr"ing.

I may not have time to respond in detail....and my opinions may not always be correct...... but thoughtful questioning is always good.

My very quick response to the above is that....maybe we should tell that cat who eats whole carcass mice.

I am in the middle of 3 different projects right now and cannot dive into this in detail.....but do you have the average phos DM of a mouse handy?

When I look at man-made "shoulds"...and they are at odds with nature....the big question mark over my head lights up.

That said, I am in the process of heading my cats to a lower phos (read: non-natural) diet due to their advancing age.

Again....no time to type out all of my thoughts right now.

 

Try it again - it works for me.

 

Dr. Lisa,

Sounds like we are on the same basic page. Having grown up on a [couple horse] farm I get your common sense.

Gator

 

I love this page. Look up mice and rats:

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholeP ... %20prey%22

 

Yes, and the breakdown of Dr. Zoran you quote on your own web page is wrong as I have confirmed though her myself. She has made mistakes in her copying from SACN 4th ed.

Seriously Dr. Lisa, I have so much respect for you and what you do.

 

Thanx Lisa I just found some intersting info on lancets.

And I know people probable do this to you all the time but in your opinion with a diabitic cat would Evo be ok to feed them.
And Yes I pulled all my dry food.

 

Which quote are you talking about?

This is getting so frustrating.....I just typed 2 more posts that were lost.

I give up.....my patience level is being taxed with this site right now......

 

Trying this one more time......

% Phos on a DMB:

Mouse, cotton 1.67

Mouse, domestic 1.72

Mouse, golden 1.92

Mouse, old-field 1.86

Rabbit, domestic 3.43

Man messing with Mother Nature yet again.

 

Thank you and I appreciate your critical thinking when it comes to feline nutrition.

 

i just got the weirdest reading at +4

1-16-10
Amps 374 - .5 unit pzi vet 8am
+10 280

Pmps 282 - .5 unit pzi vet 8pm
+4 597 Retest 435

 

OK I'll quote SACN 4th ed Chapter 6 page 22:

"Dietary phosphorus may be reduced as low as 0.3% DM in cats with overt renal disease, otherwise levels of 0.5 to 0.7 % are recommended"

Anyway, Dr. Zoran tried to copy the rat breakdown noted in SACN. Unfortunately she made a few mistakes and they got repeated though the echo chamber.

And thus the raw with bones diets have WAY too much P.

If you want the specifics I'll need to dig though my posts to the old board.

Please confirm with Janet as we have communicate many times about this.

 

it seems like this thread turned into a nutrition course. :lol:

 

Yo David,

You ask the question you get the controversial answers.


Back to my thing about you have it under control and having to make your own decisions.

 

i know i just think it is funny. get a lot of feedback which i like.

 

David... a little overlap is not a problem... while one does is wearing off (but not quite worn off completely) the other dose is starting up... That is good as it never leaves the kitty without insulin. But it does make treating a bit more data reliant... It gets more complicated when the numbers are lower because you don't want to shoot on a dropping low number and have it go too low.

Now, about your +4... that could be anything... not eating can stress the pancreas... you might have missed the shot (easy to do, we've all done it once at least)... or the number was dropping a bit and the added insulin made Spicey's body react by producing sugar to protect itself (rebound). What you have to remember is that one number (or two) is just a number... a piece of the puzzle and pattern. So you test a bit later to see what's happening. Record everything - including how Spicey is feeling.

Also, did you get the ketostix? This is very important... especially if you have a lower dose and higher numbers... I don't think there is a reason to panic this minute... but please get them tomorrow if you haven't already. Keep Spicey hydrated and let her eat the low carb foods. She has to eat - if she's not eating let her eat whatever she would like. I don't want the conversation of nutrition to bury any minor issues that may turn major.

 

no didn't get the ketostix yet have to wait for payday.

 

OK - you choose to listen to SACN and I choose to pay attention to the composition of birds and mice.

From what you are saying above, birds and mice have "WAY too much phos". Better let God/nature know that a big mistake has been made - according to Man!!

Did you see my post regarding the % Phos on a DMB of mice?

David - Sorry to hijack your thread but I am just responding to statements made here.

 

that is ok lisa :smile:

 

> I thought about buying a variety and see which ones
> she likes best that is still low carb. You know finicky eaters.

If you do this, may I suggest what I did? I went out and got a whole *bunch* of different brands and flavors from a range of shops, and I had Gwyn taste-test every one of them. I wrote down her reaction to each food, both as it was initially presented and whether she was still interested in it several hours later. When everything was done, I had a list of foods ranked by how well Gwyn liked them.

Now, obviously, when you make your final decision as to what food(s) Spicey will eat, you'll take a number of things into account beyond how well Spicey liked them -- things like carbs, price, how easy it is to find the foods in your area. But before I did any of those calculations to see which food(s) I would feed Gwyn regularly, I took the 2-3 foods that Gwyn liked best and completely removed them from the contest.

Why? Because I *knew* that, at some point in time, Gwyn would lose her appetite. *Every* cat loses their appetite at some point in time, even those who are horrendous eaters. What I wanted to do with those 2-3 foods is to reserve those for special occasions where Gwyn might not be eating normally and I was trying to tempt her appetite. I mean, you love pizza -- but only when it's a treat. If you eat it every day, it's nothing special and not particularly tempting. I wanted to find out what Gwyn's "pizza" foods were, and reserve them for times when I *need* her to eat.

Since figuring out what foods to reserve, on the few occasions when Gwyn's appetite has diminished, I reach for the special foods first. It's only after those foods fail that I do the frantic search-for-food thing, calling the vet for an appetite stimulant and running to the grocery store and buying two slices of a half-dozen deli meats, a dozen jars of baby food, and two dozen types of cat food. But knowing definitively what her absolute 2-3 favorite foods are, and reserving those for special situations, has intermittently saved me a some aggravation and fretting during otherwise stressful periods. If you decide to run taste-tests on Spicey, you may want to consider doing something similar.

 

Unfortunantly, weird readings should be expected--you have two variables you can't anticipate or control (her own insulin production) and her inconsistent food consumption. The sooner you can find a food that she likes and will eat consistently, the less weirdest you will see.

FWIW, I've fed Lucy Wellness (Chicken, Turkey, and Turkey and Salmon) for 5 years. I also give her Nature's Variety raw (frozen medallions). Then I mix the two together--1 medallion per meal with 1 heaping tablespoon of Wellness and about 1/3 cup of water.

 

It is my belief that the assumption that cats eat WHOLE prey is wrong. Back to my experience with the cats on the farm, they did not eat the whole thing. Maybe this is because their diet was being supplemented. Nonetheless, I have not seen a cat eat the whole thing.

The P comes mostly from the bones.

As far as SACN goes there was quite a debate on newsgroups about it being Hills linked. So Why would a Hills linked book suggest such low P for kitty's diets?

 

I just love a philosophical debate!

I think God/Nature, well, ok, just Nature, I won't argue for God here -- Nature is looking out for the species, for the survival of the gene. Natural cat diet of birds and mice and cockroaches and worms and lizards, my cats favorite here in the south, might be good for keeping a cat alive several years and letting it procreate freely, but nature really wouldn't be too "interested" in keeping any individual cat alive beyond its productive years. What pet food manufacturer's should be (but who knows if they are) investigating is which foods are conducive for letting a cat live a long healthy life. So I'd argue that nature and man have two different goals, and neither is necessarily making a mistake.

Which really doesn't have anything to do with anything important here, but I did learn how to use the quote feature of this software.

 

This may be belated but I think the Mod can split a topic out in two when it gets going with two discussions like this one (just skimmed it, so sorry if I misread things). May be moot now as I think David has started a new topic for today and probably won't post more BG data in this one. But I have my "Tech" hat on today pc_work so thought I'd mention it. It's a pretty cool feature IMHO, although a little confusing perhaps to get used to. Just a thought.

 

Moving this (nutrition) discussion to Think Tank.