143 +11 skip or give 1/2

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Patty & Teal'c, Mar 13, 2020.

  1. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
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  2. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    He threw up in my bed:( so I decided to test him. Think it was an isolated incident he ate his treat and headed for his food so he is all good.
     
  3. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    You and I both know that Teal'c will likely bounce high from those blues today. And he may stay there for several cycles.

    Patty, this may sound a bit crazy. I can't really explain why, but I think you need to lower the dose to 1.5U.

    Like I said, it's more of a gut feeling and intuition than anything I could explain rationally. It doesn't follow any of the dosing protocol guidelines. But I have this "feeling" that Teal'c would do better with a decrease in dose.

    It would be a bit of an experiment. Are you willing to try?
     
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  4. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    I've honestly been thinking the same thing. As I stated I am assuming he probably had greens last night with that blue preshot this morning. I'm honestly suprised he is still in the blues at +8 after only receiving 1 unit. All of these indicate that a reduction is in order. Also, since I'm working would feel a touch safer to go lower. Will have husband give him 1.5 and ride the bounce over the weekend lol.
     
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  5. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    That high this afternoon could be my mistake. Fefe lost her tag so I opened her bowl of food so she could eat. Got busy doing something else when I looked again Teal'c was at the bowl. He didn't eat much but could have influenced that number. I put that in my remarks.
     
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  6. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Teal'c is a real opportunist, eating Fefe's food.
     
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  7. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Bobby found Fefe's tag unfortunately she is afraid of the bowl. Gizzie girl figured it out quickly. Maybe she can teach Fe. 20200314_173347.jpg
     
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  8. Juls and Billy

    Juls and Billy Member

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    You know, it's the strangest thing, but I've been thinking about a reduced dose for Teal'c as well. Like Deb, I have no logical rationale for it, it just keeps popping up in my mind. I think it's worth an experiment.
     
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  9. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    I totally agree as well now if I can keep from sabotaging this experiment
     
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  10. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Bobby didn't give shot last night once again claimed Teal'c wouldn't eat. Why is it he is the only one who seems to have a problem. He claimed Teal'c was sleeping and he didn't want to wake him. Told him maybe I should stop setting up the food dish so he can hear the can open. So mad. Also told him how important it is for him to eat and get his insulin to prevent DKA hope he understood. Oh so mad
     
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  11. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Thinking about increasing back to 1.75. Can't say it was a failed experiment but will say it was a sabotaged experiment. Might have had better results if I had caught him before he got in the dog food and Bobby would have woke him up for his shot, still can't wrap my head around him not wanting to wake him up.
    Tonight will be the 6th cycle since the mistakes. Can't decided if I do the 1.5 tonight and run a curve and start 1.75 tomorrow morning depending on what happens. Or go ahead and start 1.75 tonight. Keep thinking about the last reduction and how it changed just as we were about to increase. Also wondering if the dog food and not waking him up could increase the amount of time needed on 1.5 to see a change. That's why I didnt include the shots pm 3/13 or the shot for 3/14 in my cycle counts. 3/14 was the day both events happened.
    Also have u100 syringes coming. I ordered them sunday. Bank locked my card because it seemed like an odd charge. So called bank monday and got my card unlocked and reordered them. Thank you bank for trying to save me. They didn't lock it on either of the boxes of u40. Anywho those are my thoughts for today.
     
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  12. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    The dog food - again. Hanging my head here in frustration for you.
     
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  13. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Still have been thinking about trying Lantus but my vet is all about Prozinc unwilling to try. Decided to try the other vet hospital. Called and asked what they use for diabetic cat the receptionist transferred me to a vet and I told him I was interested in trying Lantus for my cat. He said that cats DON'T do well on longer lasting insulin that they are hard to regulate on longer lasting. He said he uses vetsulin and one that starts with an H and has had great success with them. He said what I'm seeing with the Prozinc is the somogy effect. Why am I suddenly feeling like I really live in a very backward area. Bigger city 50 miles from here may see if I can find someone there and stick with Prozinc in the mean time. WOW.
     
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  14. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Not enough rolleyes emojis to say how I feel about those vets.

    Insulin that starts with an H is Humulin N, one of the NPH insulins, that usually only lasts 6-8 hours in a cat.

    The "symogi effect" has been debunked. Decades ago. Results have never been replicated, since the original 1930's era study.

    What about simply asking your vet for a prescription for the Lantus? We could send you the link for the AAHA Guidelines again, to share with your vet.

    If you can get a prescription for the lantus, order from Canada, and we can guide you with the testing and dosing. You'd probably have to use the SLGS protocol, with your work schedule.

    Over 430+ cats off insulin with the Lantus, and our guidance here.

    Or send your vet here, to see our dosing protocols for lantus.
     
  15. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    I think maybe using AAHA guidelines maybe I can convince my vet. Truly he is my cat should be my choice. I'll go see him again tomorrow. Guess I could be demanding. I feel like we are struggling. Yes it would have to be SLGS.
     
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  16. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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  17. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    That should hopefully be good. Don't understand why I can't just have what I want for him. But it is what it is.
     
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  18. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    My other thought was finding an individual who is selling Lantus they no longer need and trying it that way then if it works well taking my SS to vet showing how he responded and maybe convince him that way.
     
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  19. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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  20. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Ok I have asked will be watching to see if I get a response wasn't sure what to offer so asked what they want for it. Also didn't explain that this is not vet prescribed.
     
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  21. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    How are you doing Patty?

    Did you send a PM to the people that have the insulin on offer?
    That is what you need to do for a response.
     
  22. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Doing good still going to work. Yes I did sent a private msg, no response yet. Have increased him back up to 2u 2x a day
     
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  23. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Litterbox was better today not as many big clumps. Yesterday it was really bad. Hope this is a good sign.

    Holding 2units till monday curve then. He appears to be bouncing at the moment.
     
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  24. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Won't get the Lantus till after the 30th but at least I know its coming. Only 2 pens but that should last for awhile. Looks like Teal'c might have broke through the bounce today. Since I was asleep not sure how low he went. Expecting another possible bounce, we shall see. Between Teal'c and Gizzie's poop issue I hated coming to work. Gizzie I'm making her drink and eat as much as she can till tomorrow afraid of dehydration. And Teal'c having a lower +11 with Bobby not testing has me concerned.
     
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  25. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    2 pens of Lantus should last you a long time. Several months at least.
    You'll want to go to the lantus ISG, and read the stickies about lantus.
    You'll also want to know how to draw insulin from a pen with an insulin syringe.
    There is a video in the Health Links/FAQs forum showing how to do that. Look in the Index sticky.

    That yellow at +11 probably is the bounce breaking.

    Sending get better vines to Gizzie so she gets past the diarrhea issues. Quickly.
     
  26. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Thank you Deb will check the stickies out. Slow day at work so that will give me something to do.

    Thank you for Gizzie they wouldn't see her on Saturday but am going to take her tomorrow and wait in parking lot she needs to be checked out.
     
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  27. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    I have increased the dose to 2.25. We had what I assume is a pretty good bounce at Pmps 3/25. He went from 557 to 310 in 3 hrs and 45 mins after his PM shot, pretty big drop. From the data I have it looks that usually he hits his nadir at around +6 so guessing he will go a bit lower. I will test him at +6 to see where we are. I am unsure about this but ran out of treats for testing, Bobby went to Walmart to get some but they didn't have any. I have been using the Dr Esleys Dry Chicken as a treat, 3 or 4 pieces. Not sure if that small of an amount could have caused a change in his numbers. Did put that in my remarks the day I started using it as treats. Would have been on 3/20.

    I go back to work tomorrow and have 4 12 hour days in a row. Not sure what I'll have off yet next week hoping I stay on the Thursday-Sunday schedule. I feel for those that are no longer working because of Covid-19.

    Got word that I should have the Lantus by Saturday. Should I start it the day I get it or wait for a day off, I'm thinking I should start right away so that he will already be building the depot by the time I have a day off. Also, am unsure at what dose to start at. Thinking I should move his shot time from 5am 5pm to 5:30am 5:30pm since I can't always get out of work before 5. With Prozinc it wasn't a big deal if I was 15 to 20 mins late, but as I understand with Lantus timing is everything. Really excited to be able to give this a try. I do know it might not be any better, but am hopeful. I will also mark out a line with the words started Lantus on my SS.

    On the Gizzie front they gave her a shot of Cerenia and sent me home with 1 Cerenia tab and 7 days of antibiotics she is doing much better.:D They said she has a very small stone either in her kidneys or intestines but don't think it caused the problem. They said in a few months I should bring her back in to check on the stone. Her Blood work was all good.:)
     
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  28. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Exciting! Hope the insulin arrives when expected.

    I'd start right away too. The depot usually takes 6 cycles or 3 days to build up to the full amount. So that would mean you would be working the first 2 nights the lantus is being used, and have Monday where you are there to test and observe a bit more.
    Starting dose takes the dose of the current insulin into consideration. So if you are giving Teal'c 2.25U of Prozinc, you would give him 2.25U of Lantus. Or 2U if you want to be a bit conservative on the starting dose for a different insulin.
    Yes, that may help. Good idea Patty.

    How long does that give you before you leave for work? In case you have to stall and retest before the shot?

    Timing is a bit more important with Lantus, but some people have to adjust their shooting schedules even when using lantus. A 11/13 shot schedule is not unheard of. You might be able to do a 11.5/12.5 schedule. Yes, the shot times will be off a bit from the normal 12/12 recommendation, but you need to do what your work schedule allows.

    Yes, Big Bold Words on your SS when you switch insulins will be good.
    Also, remember to change your signature, and leave the Prozinc there, but indicate the switch.
    Something like Lantus 3/29/20, Prozinc 11/11/19 in your signature. You'll have to shorten it some.

    Spreadsheet also has that orange box at the top, where you indicate the insulin. So remember to change that part also.

    You'll also want to learn the "style" of posting on the Lantus board, introduce yourself a few days before, tell people you are switching over from Prozinc, and link your old Prozinc post at the top of your daily post.

    I'll try to follow along with you in the Lantus ISG, but I don't often have the time to post there much. I'll at least "like" your posts there so you know I have read them, and "lurk" in the background. But I usually let the folks in the lantus ISG help each other.
     
  29. SheKit & JessKat

    SheKit & JessKat Member

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    Just checking you got/have the needed U100 syringes to use with the Lantus when it arrives. (Or hopefully U100's came with your Lantus purchase!)

    I'm not familiar with your journey & I tried to scan through your threads to see what syringes you're using because if you purchase syringes through your vet for use with Prozinc they would've sold you U40's. I didn't catch any mention of the syringes you're currently using, although I may have missed it.
     
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  30. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    So I leave the house at 4:12 work at 5 pm that's why Bobby gives the pm shot. Its 3.5 miles to work so not much of a commute. Small city/big town about 25,000 here. It takes a bit longer going at 4:12 then coming home at 4:45. I leave work anywhere between 4:45 and 5 am. No one on the road at that time so takes about 10 mins. Thinking that 5 would still work in that case.

    Don't want to go earlier because I think Bobby would not be happy if he had to shoot before he left for work. He leaves around 4:00 am. Home by 4:45pm. The 5:00pm shot time allows him to come home change clothes feed (whice I set up for him) shoot then he can relax. He is 60 and does a very labor intensive job. Hard on him and I'm just trying to keep it simple for him.

    Teal'c is a very special cat to us. He was born on Bobby's birthday. His mama was a calico cat. He was a multi color Male the only multi color male in the litter. Didn't know what he was going to look like when he got older but now we think daddy might have been a ragdoll. Shefoo was also the oddball from her litter. She was born to a stray mama dark gray and white tiger striped. The mama gave birth under the front deck of a coworker's house. They started feeding the mom and then the kittens. All the kittens looked like mom except for shefoo. She was white with just a touch of gray. When we picked her the owner was suprised because he thought the tiger striped kittens better looking. We picked her cause she was different. That made her special to us. She turned out looking like a lynx point. I'm so glad we now know about dry food because we have a chance to keep what happened to Teal'c from happening to her. Why I'm telling all this I don't know. Guess it's just to explain our pets are part of us as a whole they are family. They are our furbabies.
     

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  31. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Yes I got some u100 3/10 cc 5/16 half unit marked needles . Have been using u40 with Prozinc. Ready for this and hopefully he will do better on Lantus.
     
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  32. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Was that picture back in post #30 of Shefoo when she was a baby? Or is that her now?

    You've got this Patty. You've got things covered for when you switch to Lantus, You have the correct insulin syringes, you are already feeding Teal'c a good low carb food. You know how to home test.

    You "rock this lady."
     
  33. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Tested my meter on myself got a 115 no food however I had a bit of rockstar energy drink so think its right.
     
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  34. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Shefoo as a baby. Shefoo today
     

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  35. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Thought so. Teal'c looked awful big in comparison to Shefoo.
     
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  36. SheKit & JessKat

    SheKit & JessKat Member

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    Oh I hope so too! I'll be watching - have thought about the Lantus switch for my Jess. She's a steroid induced diabetic and since switching to RAWZ food & letting her guts settle down I've recently been able to reduce the steroid use in half. Darn vet said she'd be on steroids for life, urghhh. I'm hoping to get her off the steroids (slowly) altogether but if I can't I'm really interested in how the switch works for you.

    Deb is the absolute best and just knowing she's in the background keeping an eye on things would give me huge peace of mind!

    Good Luck!
     
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  37. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Hi Shelley, aka @SheKit & JessKat
    Would you like to start your own thread?
    Get some individualized suggestions, or are you doing ok?

    p.s. Non-standardized SS, looks like your cat only gets only 1.2u of Prozinc?
     
  38. SheKit & JessKat

    SheKit & JessKat Member

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    See....you're the best!

    Had a bit of a hiccup in February when she was on Zeniquin, seemed BG got stuck but we're getting back on track now. It's been a fine line with steroids in the mix.

    A few months ago I found an independent Mom & Pop Pet store in a small town close to us that specializes in pet nutrition, holistic remedies, pet health supplements and raw diets. The owner & employees combined are Certified Natural Pet Food Consultants, Certified Raw Pet Food Specialists, Certified Massage Therapists, Certified Animal Care Providers...I love that the people working there are serious about pet care, truly knowledgeable, not just giving me the spiel and they know me when I walk in the door!:cool:

    & Yeah the spreadsheet thing, I'm a bookkeeper, been using my own spreadsheets forever and started my own version when I was lurking back in July/August 2019. 2 doses a day. I've got an AM/PM thing going on with 'my' spreadsheet, that I need to update...:rolleyes:

    Thank You!!

    (Not sure if I should have answered here, sorry if I went about it the wrong way)
     
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  39. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    If you start your own thread Shelley, we won't confuse Patty & Teal'c with suggestions meant for you and Jessie.
    Go to the forum you want to post in. We like new members to start in Feline Health if at all possible.
    Go to the upper right corner of the screen. You will see "Post New Thread" on the far right, after the forum title.
    Select that "Post New Thread" , and you will have a text box appear, where you put in your thread title.
    Then start typing away in the text box, that appears below the title.
    You may copy what you said here.
    Then at the end, where is says "Create Thread", click on that and you have your own thread.

    Feline Health (Welcome & Main forum) is suggested first, so that there are more people that will see your first thread.
    I'm kind of alone here in the Prozinc forum, helping people.
    I can't be on at all hours of the day, and I never remember to ask all the needed questions or think about all the situation. There will always be something I forget, and if you post first in Feline Health (Welcome & Main forum), other people will think of things I did not remember to ask about.

    p.s. You were a great help with Diane Engoron and her kitty Wenchie, when she was trying to learn more about EPI (Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency).

    p.p.s We'll probably ask you to get our standardized SS up, in place of the version you created. Standardization helps us to read and see things better. For example, I almost missed that you had separate rows for AM and PM. There is a template you copy, so you don't have to create your own version. Our SS also has a tab for each year, a tab where you can enter lab results, etc.

    Think about it. For at least entering the most recent couple of weeks of data. So used to reading "OUR" version, it takes longer to see the waves of action and interpret what is going on with a different version of the SS.
     
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  40. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    I'm hoping it goes well too. I'll definently let you know how it goes.
     
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  41. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    The Lantus is here.:D it looks good and clear. Going to start with 2 units and heres why. I increased him to the 2.25. Everyday I test before I go to work always red or black but I come home from work and its pink. Asked husband this morning how many units he was giving him, he said 2. Wish I had the in between data to see why he is red or black off 2.25 preshot and pink preshot off 2units. I'm guessing here dropping lower off 2.25 then 2 units causing a little bounce back up. So starting on 2 units. Also since I don't know how he will react to Lantus feel better with 2 units.

    I will miss you Deb and Juls. Haven't seen Juls for awhile I hope all is good for her. This is probably my last post on the Prozinc forum. Stay safe.
     
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  42. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    We'll miss you on the Prozinc forum Patty. :(But I hope Teal'c does better on the Lantus. All Paws Crossed here for success. :)
    I'll still watch out for you and Teal'c for a while. I'd miss his gorgeous face, if I didn't.;)
    Link your last thread here, into your first thread in the Lantus forum.

    Good luck and goddess bless.:)
    :bighug::bighug::bighug:

    p.s. May have gone overboard with the smilie faces, but I couldn't resist.:rolleyes:
     
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  43. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Guess I was wrong about yesterday being last post. Starting Lantus tomorrow. Work tonight leaving in a few mins. He didn't eat much last night but ate well today. Thought 231 amps was because of not eating well last night. At +11 he is at 143 which has me scratching my head.

    So question is half dose or skip since I'm switching tomorrow if I was off I'd shot but can't be here since working.
     
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  44. Patty & Teal'c

    Patty & Teal'c Member

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    Hate skipping but have decided it's best to skip. Did he finally stop bouncing that's my thought. Rather be high then too low while I'm at work. Also, since I pick up the food at +10 the +11 could be slightly food influenced since he was at the food dish just before I picked it up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020 at 4:40 PM
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  45. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Skip decision was good.
    That way, there won't be even a trace of the Prozinc left in his system when you switch to Lantus tomorrow.
     
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