? 2/6 Bella AMPS 281 calculating carbs in treats??

Discussion in 'Lantus / Basaglar (glargine) and Levemir (detemir)' started by JanetMR, Feb 6, 2018.

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  1. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...mps-5-125-last-evening-u.190721/#post-2126338

    I found purely fancy feast natural hand selected treats in fresh packs.
    Crude protein 25 %
    Crude fat .5%
    Crude fiber .5%
    Moisture 70%
    Is this ok to give as a treat??? The freeze dried chicken is getting old...(boring)

    Are these ok?
    Can anyone help me figure out how to find the carb content? Thanks

    Bellas hanging in...
    Ketones remain negative.
    Not sure if I got her insulin in last evening... ( fur shot?) she went to move just as I was giving it.

    She was retching last night .. no vomiting
    Putting her back on 1/2 pill cerenia
    Eating ok.
    How do I determine the next step with her?
    Does she remain on .25?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  2. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    It looks like to me that she could use more insulin. But, I want the SLGS peeps to look as I am not savvy on the increasing requirements for SLGS.

    @carfurby can you look at Bella's SS and see what you think?
     
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  3. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Ok
     
  4. carfurby

    carfurby Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Bobbie. I'd increase the dose to 0.5 units. Sorry about the retching. I hope the cerenia helps.
     
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  5. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    When would I increase her to .5?
    She was started on .25 1/31
     
  6. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    Yay for more negative keytones! I don't know if this is a thing with Bella, but Asia will gag or vomit clear/foamy liquid if she goes too long without food, for her that's usually 3.5-4 hours. My vet explained it as their stomach starts to release acid in anticipation of food and if none comes, the barf does instead.
     
  7. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Interesting.
    I cannot leave food out at night. My two other cats are on different diets.
    It would be horrid to have to get up to feed her
    Not sleeping enough as it is...
    She’s fed at 11 and then 6 am.
    :blackeye:
     
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  8. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    Not saying this is the case for Bella, it's just something to pay attention to. As soon as my vet told me that, I thought of the times Asia had barfed and sure enough it was on the 2 nights a week where we got home a couple hours later than usual so she had late dinners. It wasn't always a problem for Asia either, it seemed to start in her later years.

    If you find it to be the cause, there are a few options, one is a supplement that helps with that, as well there are clever ways people have figured out how to feed one cat and not the others, and it usually involves auto feeders, no waking up to feed necessary. ;)
     
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  9. carfurby

    carfurby Well-Known Member

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    I would increase tonight or tomorrow morning if you don't feel comfortable increasing at night.
     
  10. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Talk to your vet about giving her the generic for Pepcid to help with the acid. Don't remember the dose.
     
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  11. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    If it were my cat, I would hold off on the Pepcid or any medication/supplement until and if you decide this is the reason for the dry heaving, it should become obvious over time now that it's on your radar if that is the cause or not. It could be for many other reasons too and I believe kitties need their stomach acid, it's a delicate balance. ;)
     
  12. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Ok.
    The dose for Pepcid is 2.5mg every 12 hours
    I can try it.

    I found purely fancy feast natural hand selected treats in fresh packs.
    Crude protein 25 %
    Crude fat .5%
    Crude fiber .5%
    Moisture 70%
    Is this ok to give as a treat??? The freeze dried chicken is getting old...(boring)
    yes, I will hold off
    She does do it at night..occasionally. so the empty stomach does make sense. I’m just not sure what the heck to do about it.
     
  13. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    If you think it's that, Pepcid is certainly an option, I think SEB (slippery elm bark) is another supplement that helps with it, but I'm not certain that was the one and I haven't used it, so I will defer to others who have to chime in.
     
  14. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Does anyone have any idea if the fancy feast treats mentioned previously are ok to give her???
     
  15. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    Maybe put a question in your title like "calculating carbs for treats?" or something like that. I know there is a formula for figuring it out but I'm unfamiliar.
     
  16. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Ok thanks
     
  17. Sandy and Black Kitty

    Sandy and Black Kitty Well-Known Member

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    Six consecutive days of negative ketones! WooHoo!

    Still, vigilance is required. Bella IMHO is vulnerable to ketone formation and focus needs to remain on both restoration and regulation.

    This is consecutive cycle 8 for .25. We know for certain she is seeing nadirs in the 120s and she is getting used to being under 200, eating well and feeling better in general.

    My $0.02:
    I think there is room for an increase to .5u. Since it appears that the most recent bounce is clearing I would let today and tonight play out at .25u and consider an increase to .5u in the morning.
     
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  18. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    What is IMHO?
    I will see how the rest of the day pans out... will increase her to 0.5 in the morning.
    Thanks for the feedback.
     
  19. Sandy and Black Kitty

    Sandy and Black Kitty Well-Known Member

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    Check here bottom of page 16. Are the ones you purchased there?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  20. Tracey&Jones

    Tracey&Jones Well-Known Member

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    Here is the calculator I use. It is a not "as fed" numbers but if it gives me a number above 10% carb...I just assume it is.

    ETA: For SLGS you would hold for 14 cycles. I think there is room for some lower numbers but I would wait a few more cycles, looks a little bit bouncy for me. I don't have any history with keytones, so I am not sure if that is wise or not.
     
  21. Sandy and Black Kitty

    Sandy and Black Kitty Well-Known Member

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    In my humble opinion :cool:
     
  22. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Ok. I’m such a dweeb
     
  23. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Nope.. didn’t see them listed.
    They are a treat
    Purely fancy feast natural hand selected chicken treats
     
  24. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Ok.. so that would staying at .25 until Friday evening? A cycle is a dose.. correct?
    I think she’s had 8 cycles of .25
    She has bounced.. but ketones have been negative since the dose increase to .25.
    I’m trying to do what is best... I tend to operate on the side of caution.
     
  25. Tracey&Jones

    Tracey&Jones Well-Known Member

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    I like @Sandy and Black Kitty answer which is the same as I suggested, wait a couple more cycles to see where Bella takes you on the clearing of the bounce and reassess then. Which would bring you close to the 14 cycles. :). Keytones trumps SLGS.


    Also on the dry heaves over night - try a freeze dried treat. Works wonders on Jones and my CKD civvie (which is prone to acidic stomach). I give 1 or 2 before bed to help soak up the acid. I was able to stop the Pepcid on my CKD civvie (which is a nightmare to pill) and just use those. I use the Orijen ones. Several different proteins to choose from and simple ingredients without fruit and veggies. I buy the dog ones as it is cheaper and if needed just break in half.
     
  26. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Thanks. I’ll try the freeze dried treats before bedtime.
     
  27. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    I’m so frustrated.
    My vet does not support me.
    She doesn’t understand why I would want to increase Bella’s insulin. She thinks she should be on less!
    She’s concerned about the bouncing.
    I have tried to explain my reasoning ( especially the importance of the previous appearance of ketones)
    She wants me to keep her on .25 and do a curve in a day or two and then re- evaluate the situation.
    I know that Bella is different than she was two weeks ago. She’s more active, has more muscle tone, has put on weight... and she has negative ketones!!!!!This would not have happened without being on insulin.
    This is the vet that wanted me to “ just let her be a cat” (in other words no insulin and no home testing)
    Any thoughts?
    I already have been through several vets. ,
    I cannot drive distances to find another...
    I shouldn’t have to spend all of my time justifying my actions, :( on top of everything else.
     
  28. Tracey&Jones

    Tracey&Jones Well-Known Member

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  29. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    I have asked all these questions and more..
    I tried to find a vet who had experience with feline diabetes...
    I know they “treat it” I see people lined up at the reception area waiting get their animal tested or bring them in for a curve.
    I have another vet that I use as a back up. She does home visits and is very easy to work with
    ( no ego) I might have to use her and have the other vets as an back up. So frustrating!
    I know I’m
    Doing the right thing.
     
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  30. Tracey&Jones

    Tracey&Jones Well-Known Member

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    Darn tootin' you are!


    Maybe do a home visit with this other vet and see what she thinks. It is very important to feel heard when you are the caregiver.

    I wish you luck and hope this other vet is more open.
     
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  31. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately a lot of vets know zip about Feline Diabetes as they got maybe 8 hours of training . Your cat throws ketones so it is very important for them to have enough insulin and dosing needs to be a bit more aggressive than without ketones. Personally, I would not want to see all those pinks that are on her SS and today is her 7th day with this dose. It's your call if you want to wait to see if there is a bounce she is clearing but if she continues in high yellows and pinks at the end of tonight's cycle, I would be all over raising her to .5

    As much as you are testing you could be doing TR and change up her dose faster getting her into better numbers faster and helping to prevent ketones.

    Stick to your guns with your vet as her advice is not sound and she didn't even support home testing. You are in good company as many of us has vets that did not support home testing and know a lot about Feline Diabetes.

    You have come to the right place for help and support.
     
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  32. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Yes , they do need some acid and long term use of the Pepcid is not good. Bubba was only on it for a short time .
     
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  33. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes a necessary evil, for sure, it interferes so much with nutrient absorption, I was just suggesting to only go that direction if there is a clear indication.
     
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  34. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree with Tracey and Bobbie, and I was in the same boat as you at one point in time (I’ve since switched vets...twice), as I’m sure many of us were. You don’t want to brush off your vets instructions, but you’re just not sure they make sense once you start to do some digging and research (not to mention begin to see results following the methods here). It is tricky.

    The home vet sounds like a good option too. Maybe they will be more agreeable to work with you. You really want to have a good partnership with your vet. There was a recent thread about what to look for in vets and it was a great read, @Carol in Chicago ’s post in particular, I will go find it for you. Additionally, one member dealt with their doubting vet by bargaining “Can I try it this way for month and see what happens and then we can do it your way if it’s not working out?” Or something similar to that and I believe their cat went OTJ before the time limit ran out! :p
     
  35. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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  36. Carol in Chicago

    Carol in Chicago Member

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    These treats are fine for a FD kitty. I have them on hand and have given the to Rose on occasion. I find them to be convenient but very expensive. If you can / want to cook your own plain chicken, this would be a more economical solution, but if you would prefer to use these treats they sure are handy!
     
  37. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Wow. What a powerful negotiating tool.
    I appreciate the advice and support.
    It’s hard enough to be in this position without the added stress of having to justify my actions.
    Thank you!
     
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  38. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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  39. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Here’s what I’m going to do:
    if her ketones remain negative I will given her another day or two at .25
    If she shows any evidence of ketones I will increase her dose to .5 despite her vets
    protests/recommendations.
    Sound reasonable?
    :smuggrin:
     
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  40. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Her urine ketones remain negative. Just tested.
     
  41. Sandy and Black Kitty

    Sandy and Black Kitty Well-Known Member

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    A cycle is one twelve hour period, so each day has 2 cycles, the AM and the PM.
    Truth.
    That makes no sense. How does wanting to do all possible to find the path that helps your sick cat become a healthy cat interfere with her being a cat?
    Bouncing is not hazardous to a kittys health. Ketones on the other hand can rapidly reach life threatening levels.
    That's who I would be calling.

    You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of folks around here that didn't have difficulties with vets.
    I had a heck of a time with vets. I really liked the 3rd one, but my methods freaked her out to the point where she refused to renew BKs Lantus Rx insisting I switch him to Prozinc. Fortunately I got around that and carried on. Also fortunate was that not long after her ultimatum BKs IAA (an idiopathic condition of extreme insulin resistance that self resolves in about 1 year) started to break it's hold and the wild ride down in dose began. No further problems renewing BKs Lantus Rx; from that point forward she and I worked together well.

    And if, a day or two on .25u passes and ketones are still negative?

    I recommend you read about glucose toxicity and take it also into consideration in making your dosing decisions.
    (I know, one more thing to add to the bombardment of info)

    Keep it going Bella...:cool:
     
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  42. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    I’m up at 4am worrying about what to do...
    Bella was 211 at +5 last evening and 295 at + 10 this morning.
    I know you can’t tell me what to do... if she were your cat would you give her .25 or .5 this morning?
     
  43. carfurby

    carfurby Well-Known Member

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    If it was me, I'd increase to 0.5 units this morning. :bighug::bighug:
     
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  44. LizzieInTexas

    LizzieInTexas Well-Known Member

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    Can you monitor today? I would increase to 0.50U.
     
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  45. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    I third that, if you can monitor increase her insulin. You have been very hands on and if you see her going to low, you feed a little bit of food and post for help.
     
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  46. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    I am always monitoring...
    Gave her . 5
    :nailbiting:
     
  47. LizzieInTexas

    LizzieInTexas Well-Known Member

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    :joyful:

    Good luck with the increase. Best to stay ahead of the toxicity and ketones. Balancing act. :bighug:
     
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  48. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Thank you
     
  49. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    She was AMPS of 319 + 2. 225
    Should I give her high carb food or wait?
     
  50. Stacy & Asia

    Stacy & Asia Well-Known Member

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    How does she react to high carb? Does it give her a great bump and slow her down a good bit? If yes, it might be too heavy handed. It really depends on the cat. It was a decent drop, I would slow her up a tad, but what food does that is something you need to figure out, maybe low carb or even medium carb would do it? Whatever you decide to try, note it for future reference so you can establish which foods do what for her.

    Good call with the increase, it looks like she needed a little nudge in the right direction. Bella is doing really great, I hope she’s feeling a lot better too! :cat:
     
  51. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    I think I would try some LC to slow her a bit. The +2 number of 225 is a nice safe number and she is not in any danger at all. You just want to slow her down from dropping too fast to help with bouncing.
     
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  52. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    She ate more than 2 ounces of regular food couldn’t get her eat the high carb. She was full
    Please stay in touch
    I’m
    Not sure where to post sometimes and it is too complicated. Trying to link yesterday’s thread with today’s. Can’t figure it out
    Could someone please do it?
     
  53. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    I can’t get her to eat it
    She’s full
    Please stay in touch.
     
  54. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    She might want to eat a bit in a while. Like I said, she is not in any danger so please don't be concerned.

    How much do you feed her at the AM and PM feeding? And when does she eat again?
     
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  55. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Janet, keep your SS up to date today so we can have ease of seeing what is going on and don't have to scroll back through the thread to find the number information.
     
  56. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    She ate 2 plus ounces of chunky turkey fancy feast 6% carbs. Ate so fast she was dry heaving afterwards. No vomiting
    She usually eats anywhere from 2 Tbs to 2 ounces every 3-4 hours
    Refused high carb food ( full)
    I try again in an hour or so.
     
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  57. Bobbie And Bubba

    Bobbie And Bubba Well-Known Member

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    Actually, this is yesterday's link that you continued on this AM. No worries, you'll learn as you go along. Tomorrow, start a new one. My head was spinning when I first arrived here. I had to learn about Feline Diabetes AND how to navigate a message board both of which I was new too. And throw sleep deprivation into the mix :rolleyes: ah yi yi!

    We will help you as you go along. :cat:
     
  58. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Ok.
     
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  59. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    I will
     
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  60. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I've been watching from the sidelines. You're doing great! Trust these folks - they know FD and Lantus. :)
     
  61. Sandy and Black Kitty

    Sandy and Black Kitty Well-Known Member

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    If I’m reading your notes correctly, she ate 2oz of 6% (LC) at +3. So you essentially fed that +3 number. If that’s the case, grab a +4 to see what effect the meal may have had on the BG. That is important data to gather in your most important mission which is to “Know thy cat”.
     
  62. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    She’s 242 @+4
     
  63. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Correction: +3 225
    +4 242
     
  64. rawia

    rawia Member

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    I am using that treat since my cat diagnosed and it does not affect her BG. I gave her 1 pack everyday.

    I think even the normal treat if you gave it in small amount like one piece it is ok.
     
  65. JanetMR

    JanetMR Member

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    Thanks
    I tried giving her one yesterday. She didn’t like it. That figures....
     
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