3.24 Rufus AMBG 81, +4 59, + 9 93, PMBG +1 96(AT2) OTJ

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Sean & Rufus

Sean & Rufus

Member Since 2018
Hello all-

Just curious readings from Rufus. He hasn't had any insulin since Thursday morning. Yesterday had pretty good numbers up until last night after dinner when he had a 145 & 143 after 2, then 3 hours after dinner. Anyways, he was lip smacking a little last night but still ate all his food. This am around 6 he vomited a little water and was really lip smacking. I gave him his pepcid an hour early. I tested him at 7 and he was 81. Atye about 50 or 60 cals/about half his food which I kind of expected with the lip smacking. Anyways, around 9am I had some cereal, which I rarely do. Rufus LOVES milk. I say what the heck, lets try and see how his numbers respond. He slurped up about an 1/8 of a cup! I checked his numbers 2 hours later and was expecting craziness. It was 59! So I checked again and it was 67.

Isn't it strange for milk to not make the numbers higher? Or maybe they did but only temperorry and I missed them? Either way, I've never seen his numbers this low. Any reasons or explanations or thinking behind this?
 
If he has had no insulin, those numbers are perfectly normal, no need to bring them up. :cat: I tested my civvie once, she was 47.

I would caution about the milk, not only considering his food allergies, but cats cannot tolerate cows milk in general. As well, it has lactose, which is a sugar. If you are trying the OTJ thing, IMO best not to tempt fate and ruin your hard work by giving him foods he shouldn't have. Additionally, cats can have a very delayed postprandial response, it can be up to 24 hours later that you see the numbers go up.
 
Stacy & Asia said:
If he has had no insulin, those numbers are perfectly normal, no need to bring them up. :cat: I tested my civvie once, she was 47.

I would caution about the milk, not only considering his food allergies, but cats cannot tolerate cows milk in general. As well, it has lactose, which is a sugar. If you are trying the OTJ thing, IMO best not to tempt fate and ruin your hard work by giving him foods he shouldn't have. Additionally, cats can have a very delayed postprandial response, it can be up to 24 hours later that you see the numbers go up.
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Thanks Stacy! I know it's bad for him, he just seemed so sad and I wanted to see if he'd drink it and what effect it would have. I wonder if his pancreas was putting out extra just to keep him down? Can they bounce if they aren't on insulin?

I won't be giving him anymore. I might buy some of that cats milk again, they kind of liked that, but not as much as cows milk.

Just strange to me, in a good way, that he's having some of his best numbers off the juice.

I'll keep on checking numbers. I know treats don't catch up to him for about 3 hours and then stay for a while.
 
Those numbers are all within meter variance, glad to see Rufus is doing so well without insulin. Can you change your title to AMBG? AMPS made me think you actually shot the low number...and that's really too low on AT2 to give insulin :eek:
 
I'd be leary of cat's milk, too - partly because of the sugar potential, but also because when you feed a novel protein, that is all they are supposed to eat. If you're trying to narrow down his allergies, anything other than the novel protein in the picture is going to muddy up the test data, so to speak. Unless you really strictly control his diet, you're never going to figure out the allergen.

Cats can bounce off their own insulin, although it is very uncommon. With that said, my Trixie did a fair amount of it when she initially went OTJ; however, her OTJ circumstances were also not the norm: long story short, she was very sick with severe pancreatitis. Since she wasn't eating and her BGs were low, I had stopped shooting, with every intention of restarting once her appy improved. She would hit even yellows sometimes, but within an hour-ish of eating, she would dive steeply into greens, which is why I didn't restart shooting. BTW, she stopped bouncing off her own insulin after a course of antibiotics, so there is probably some sort of connection there. However, like I said, everything that happened with her was very unusual.

Rufus's numbers are looking great....keep checking!
 
Sean & Rufus said:
I was wondering what I was supposed to title it. That's why I put the +52 hahaha. Still confusing. Sorry :)
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Oh gosh sorry, I didn't notice that lol I haven't been able to check in lately so I guess all I saw was AMPS 52 and panicked ;) you could note it that way too I think, but what I've see when folks try OTJ is they note AMBG and which day it is. I'm certainly no expert, haven't done an OTJ trial (yet :cat::smuggrin:)
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
I'd be leary of cat's milk, too - partly because of the sugar potential, but also because when you feed a novel protein, that is all they are supposed to eat. If you're trying to narrow down his allergies, anything other than the novel protein in the picture is going to muddy up the test data, so to speak. Unless you really strictly control his diet, you're never going to figure out the allergen.

Cats can bounce off their own insulin, although it is very uncommon. With that said, my Trixie did a fair amount of it when she initially went OTJ; however, her OTJ circumstances were also not the norm: long story short, she was very sick with severe pancreatitis. Since she wasn't eating and her BGs were low, I had stopped shooting, with every intention of restarting once her appy improved. She would hit even yellows sometimes, but within an hour-ish of eating, she would dive steeply into greens, which is why I didn't restart shooting. BTW, she stopped bouncing off her own insulin after a course of antibiotics, so there is probably some sort of connection there. However, like I said, everything that happened with her was very unusual.

Rufus's numbers are looking great....keep checking!
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Oh I know about the allergy part. He hasn't started the Atopica yet. He's been on fish for awhile, and now this episode with vomit and appy not quite there wondering if fish is a bad choice. I also read somewhere on here that fish should only be fed 1 time a week? I don't know what Im going to do now. I have no idea what protein to feed him.

I hardly ever have milk in the house. I had some a couple weeks ago, nd gave him some then to see if that would help loosen him up poop wise. I bought some the other day again for some cereal. But I rarely eat breakfast and rarely have milk in the house. He won't be getting for a long time now after this. :)
 
Fish can be tough for some cats - my civvie Zen can't tolerate it at all. I've heard things about how often to feed it, too - I don't know if there is anything behind that or not.

Did the IM vet suggest anything specific to try with the novel protein diet?
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
Did the IM vet suggest anything specific to try with the novel protein diet?
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Nope. She still thinks fancy feast is ok, and I keep telling her that it many different meats and fish in it! I told her that the plan was rabbit, but he seems to like something for a while and then doesn't want it. So my plan was rabbit, venison, duck, fish, and maybe lamb. Stuff i know he wasn't eating last year before he got the severe ear infection. It would be awesome to be on 1 specific protein, but I don't think that will work for now. Again, kind of scared to use the Atopica but hopefully it will calm down tummy enough not to get nauseous. Do you happen to know what it means when a cat vomits water? is that nausea or stomach acid?
 
And just so everybody doesnt think I'm crazy, I was told by IM to experiment with foods and meds to see what he does with them. And yes I realize that doesn't mean milk and treats :) She isn't helping a ton with meds or foods or allergies, she's just there to do testing and dispense meds I think. I set up an appointment with a dermatogist to see if anything environment is going on.
 
Well that's not very helpful coming from the IM!

It's been a while since I've researched food issues, but if I remember correctly, I do think you're supposed to try a single protein for a good 4-6 weeks, because it can take several weeks for an offending protein to fully leave the system and several weeks for the system to calm down. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that. Of course, too, you wouldn't do that if something clearly is causing an issue - like when my cat, Zen, barfs within 5 minutes of eating fish.

I'm not familiar with Atopica, but from what you've described, I'd be a bit concerned, too. Is the IM easy to discuss that sort of thing over the phone? Hopefully the dermatologist can shed a little more light and offer more guidance. Food allergies are tricky...hard to figure out the offender; hard to get the cat to comply.

Usually when it's stomach acid from an empty tummy, they throw up small puddles of frothy white foam - it's not a massive barf event. If he's throwing up water that he drank, I'd be inclined to think its full-on nausea...which, IMO, could be caused by stomach acid, too.
 
Are we sure it's an allergy? With Erica, my civvie, we tried ruling out food intolerance for her chronic diarrhea and inflammation. I gave her the hypoallergenic food and it was a disaster -- huge horrible diarrhea. I switched her to some RC kibble and everything stopped! (Have I already said this? I think I'm repeating myself.)
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
Well that's not very helpful coming from the IM!

It's been a while since I've researched food issues, but if I remember correctly, I do think you're supposed to try a single protein for a good 4-6 weeks, because it can take several weeks for an offending protein to fully leave the system and several weeks for the system to calm down. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that. Of course, too, you wouldn't do that if something clearly is causing an issue - like when my cat, Zen, barfs within 5 minutes of eating fish.

I'm not familiar with Atopica, but from what you've described, I'd be a bit concerned, too. Is the IM easy to discuss that sort of thing over the phone? Hopefully the dermatologist can shed a little more light and offer more guidance. Food allergies are tricky...hard to figure out the offender; hard to get the cat to comply.

Usually when it's stomach acid from an empty tummy, they throw up small puddles of frothy white foam - it's not a massive barf event. If he's throwing up water that he drank, I'd be inclined to think its full-on nausea...which, IMO, could be caused by stomach acid, too.
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Yes, supposed to be a single, novel, protein for at least 6 weeks, preferablly 2 months. But like I said, he'll eat something and then won't. That's why we have to compromise with different novel proteins. Not ideal, but what other meds can we give him? Its bordering on rediculous now.

IM is very hard to discuss things with. It's all done through the phone, through the vet tech. We have another appointment next Monday. He's reaaly nauseoud today. I'm very inclined to to the biopsy now to see what is going on. I did read up a little on the Atopica. Side effects can be bad, but we'd know and can stop them. The cancer aspect was on a cat cat that had tlike 5 times the needed dose, and she prescribed Rufus under the recommended dose. I'm going to start it on Monday, so in case anything is to arise, at least she'll be available to "talk".

I think I'll pop a cernenia in him and see what happens. I'm just so tired of all of these meds and supplements. I very rarely take anything because I'm not a fan of meds. I just don't understand how we can be hving this issues while taking pepcid and onda :(
 
Stephanie & Quintus said:
Are we sure it's an allergy? With Erica, my civvie, we tried ruling out food intolerance for her chronic diarrhea and inflammation. I gave her the hypoallergenic food and it was a disaster -- huge horrible diarrhea. I switched her to some RC kibble and everything stopped! (Have I already said this? I think I'm repeating myself.)
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Yeah, it's an allergy. To what who knows. I am 95% sure it's turkey, but who know what of anything else. Could be rice, or grains, or peas, or dander, or gluten. Yeah I was thinking the other day about the hydrolyzed food. Rufus has hydrolyzed treats from RC. First ingredient is rice. What if he's allergic to rice?! It's so hard and am banging my head against the wall. Before it would have been easier to get him to eat a novel protein because he'd eat almost anything. Now that he is nauseous ALL THE TIME he is so so picky. And of course he doesn't vomit anymore like he used to, or have diarrhea. Only constipation and nausea.
 
Sean & Rufus said:
I think I'll pop a cernenia in him and see what happens. I'm just so tired of all of these meds and supplements. I very rarely take anything because I'm not a fan of meds. I just don't understand how we can be hving this issues while taking pepcid and onda
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I so completely understand :bighug::bighug::bighug:

Check out today's condo for some possible suggestions for food. Any issues with phos levels? The Cerenia shot seemed to really help with Gizmo.
 
He definitely could be more nauseated than usual today from this morning's milk. It's very hard for cats to digest.

I'm not a fan of extra meds, either...but sometimes the alternative is far worse. Trix was on a basket full of daily meds for her last 3 years - but without those meds, she would have have had those last three years.

ETA she did have her share of ups and downs during those years, too - nausea at times, despite anti-nausea meds, so it can happen. The objective becomes getting them to feel good the majority of the time, knowing there can, and probably will be, some off days, too...just like us humans!
 
LizzieInTexas said:
Have you considered having allergy tests run? I know @Doodles & Karen had them done. Maybe she will come in.
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I'm possibly going to have skin testing done, but I'm sure its a food allergy. I've been told by 6 different vets and most people here not to waste my energy and money on any food tests as they usually come back inaccurate or inconclusive. :(
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
He definitely could be more nauseated than usual today from this morning's milk. It's very hard for cats to digest.

I'm not a fan of extra meds, either...but sometimes the alternative is far worse. Trix was on a basket full of daily meds for her last 3 years - but without those meds, she would have have had those last three years.

ETA she did have her share of ups and downs during those years, too - nausea at times, despite anti-nausea meds, so it can happen. The objective becomes getting them to feel good the majority of the time, knowing there can, and probably will be, some off days, too...just like us humans!
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YEah, that milk wasn't the best idea. He was very nauseos before that, though. I did give him a cerenia now so we'll see what happens. I gave him 3 of his hydrolyzed treats and he didn't even eat those, although he doesn't always care for them.

I guess I don't have a problem with the meds, if they help. But when you throw all these at them and they don't seem to be working, then I get a little miffed.
 
Sean & Rufus said:
Last phos level I know of was back in Sept. It was 5.1. Is that ok level? It says 8.2 is top.
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That is higher than it should be. Goal s/b 4.x I think. Just be mindful of the phos in the food. Higher phos can contribute to nausea.

Where are you getting your Cerenia?

I order from here. Best pricing I have found. I get the 24mg (1/4 pill per day).

https://www.kvsupply.com/item/cerenia-tablets-4-pack/496933/

They will contact your vet for authorizaion. Received in less than a week.

ETA-phos info
http://www.felinecrf.org/phosphorus.htm
 
I know that he has some level of kidney disease (old vet said any cat over 8 has some level of disease) because of previous test levels, and denoted on last ultrasound by 2nd set of eyes. Current IM made no mention kidneys. What are the numbers that you would be conerned with when it comes to kidney numbers?
His bun, creatine, and bun/crea ratio all improved this last feb from the numbers from last feb.
current #'s: Bun: 31, creatine: 1.4, ratio 22.
 
It does seem like he does have good days, though...right?

It’s hard because I know he can be finicky but I would just try to be as consistent and as simple as possible with his food. I would even skip treats, at least for a while. I don’t give my food-sensitive guys any treats at all because I never know what could set them off.

Did he have nausea before he had that bad ear infection? If not, I’m wondering if something could be going on there - vestibular problems can definitely cause nausea (although he clearly does have allergy issues with his skin as well). Just something to ponder.
 
LizzieInTexas said:
That is higher than it should be. Goal s/b 4.x I think. Just be mindful of the phos in the food. Higher phos can contribute to nausea.

Where are you getting your Cerenia?

I order from here. Best pricing I have found. I get the 24mg (1/4 pill per day).

https://www.kvsupply.com/item/cerenia-tablets-4-pack/496933/

They will contact your vet for authorizaion. Received in less than a week.

ETA-phos info
http://www.felinecrf.org/phosphorus.htm
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Oh I have been consious on the phos level in food. It is so difficult to find a novel protein, in a pate, with good carbs, and low phos that he will eat. I just bought some cerenia from Drs Foster & Smith. Bought the 64mg and am quartering them. He gets 16mg per day if needed. He hasn't had one for about a week I tjink before today.
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
It does seem like he does have good days, though...right?
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Absolutely, but he is still on the pepcid and onda evereyday whether he needs them or not, because I don't know if he needs them or not and with him on insulin before I had no choice but to give them ahead of time to make sure he would eat!
Amy&TrixieCat said:
Did he have nausea before he had that bad ear infection? If not, I’m wondering if something could be going on there - vestibular problems can definitely cause nausea (although he clearly does have allergy issues with his skin as well). Just something to ponder.
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He has had itching fits for years now, but always ate! He was like a dog! Anytime you were in the kitchen or eating or even had food he would be all over you. Then in July I tried switching from rabbit to duck. He ate that for a couple days then stopped. Kind of weird because he used to eat everything. Went back on rabbit then in August tried switching proteins again. No go. End of August I noticed he was eating less and less dry. Then he was eating less and less wet. never lost weight though which eas weird. The only wanted really wet soft pate. Brough him in to old vet. Asked about teeth wand was told they were fine (he lost one a month later & you know about recent discoveries). Full blood work and look over. Nothing to note except higher creatine 1.7 and BUN 41. Was told sometimes kitties dont like to eat if they have high kidney numbers. Also, his ears were full of black gunk. Given some ear meds and sent on my way. Week later wasn't eating still and I read that pred would help with eting nd with itching so they reluctanlty put him in a low dose. Cured the itching, not the eating. That is when I brought him to current vet. He was on 2 different ears med for 6 weeks and didn't work. Finally had to use a very strong canine steroid ear med. That worked. I brought Rufus in to check ears and get them cleaned a month ago I'd say and they were dirty, but no where near what they were. Today I noticed that I can see some stuff in the kind of.
 
I think the ear treatments are a form of steroids :( I'll give vet a call on Monday for a cleaning and a peek to see what is going on in there. Thank you for thinking of that!
 
Yeah, it can't hurt to get his ears checked....it sounds like the ear infection was the start of the nausea the, right? I do wonder if there is a connection.

FWIW, Trix was on daily cerenia and pepcid for those three years I mentioned. When she first had that really bout with pancreatitis, I tried to wean her off the meds a few times when she started eating better, but she would always backslide. So, I reached a point where I just kept her on them, to stay ahead of the problem. It is easier to stay ahead of it than it is to try and catch back up.

BTW, cerenia also has anti-inflammatory properties, so that can possibly be helpful with settling his belly, too.
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
it sounds like the ear infection was the start of the nausea the, right? I do wonder if there is a connection.
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Yeah, it was about that time. Everything pretty much happened at the same time, but yeah it could very well be. We at first thought he wasn't eating because of pain from ears, but it could have been nausea. I didn't know the signs of it back then as far as lip smacking and all that, but yeah he would sniff food and walk away. You might be on to something here! I'm surprised that vets didn't connect the ears and nausea.
 
I've found with both people and kitty doctors that sometimes we have to do some of our own digging....

Hopefully that could possibly be part of the big picture - with a good/easy solution.
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
I've found with both people and kitty doctors that sometimes we have to do some of our own digging....

Hopefully that could possibly be part of the big picture - with a good/easy solution.
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Now I'm wondering if it is his kidneys causing the nausea. It seems like his bun/crea ratio is high for the creatine level.
 
@Amy&TrixieCat I was told by my vet 5mg of pepcid was a lot. Too much. But 2.5 wasn't working. Now I see that 5 is on the low end for Rufus weight. I see Trixie was on 5mg. How much did she weigh?
 
Admittedly I'm not super strong with interpreting labs, despite the fact that Trix had advanced CKD for several years. But, Rufus's kidney values from 2/14 look pretty good to me. I don't know how much stock is put in the ratio value - every time I've talked to my vet about kidney values, she focused on BUN, creat, and phosphorous.

I'd still lean towards food sensitivities and/or ears as possible causes.
 
Trixie was a pipsqueak, under 10lbs. 5mg is the very top of what they should get - for her, with so much going on (pancreatitis and advanced kidney disease), she needed to be there. If you can keep it below 5mg, I would try to do that.

Have you tried just the cerenia and onda together, no pepcid? I know you mentioned he hadn't needed cerenia for about a week, until today...I wonder if that combo is good for him???

Gotta get dinner stuff going now, but I will check back in later.
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
Admittedly I'm not super strong with interpreting labs, despite the fact that Trix had advanced CKD for several years. But, Rufus's kidney values from 2/14 look pretty good to me. I don't know how much stock is put in the ratio value - every time I've talked to my vet about kidney values, she focused on BUN, creat, and phosphorous.

I'd still lean towards food sensitivities and/or ears as possible causes.
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From Tanya's site it said the ration should be 10:1 or 12:1, unless they are eating high protein then it could be 20:1.
 
So, today is Day 4 OTJ trial. Tomorrow's thread title can be Day 5 OTJ trial. You want Camille and Cyclone to see you are doing an OTJ trial and she will send you a PM about getting some photos to her and she'll make the cutest OTJ video for you for Party Day!

I agree with the others and don't temp fate with anything other than low carb food and especially since he is having appy issues and allergies.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
So, today is Day 4 OTJ trial. Tomorrow's thread title can be Day 5 OTJ trial. You want Camille and Cyclone to see you are doing an OTJ trial and she will send you a PM about getting some photos to her and she'll make the cutest OTJ video for you for Party Day!

I agree with the others and don't temp fate with anything other than low carb food and especially since he is having appy issues and allergies.
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Thanks :) This whole OTJ trial is knocking on wood the whole time.
 
Sean & Rufus said:
Thanks :) This whole OTJ trial is knocking on wood the whole time.
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I remember it well and know how nerve racking it is and hope to be doing it again soon.
upload_2018-3-24_18-53-5.png
 
You may just need to play around with different med combinations to find what works best for Rufus - at least for now. It may be some sort of combination of cerenia, onda, pepcid, and mirilax (how is the constipation issue going?). Some kitties just do need the extra help. Hopefully the cerenia helped him this afternoon.
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
You may just need to play around with different med combinations to find what works best for Rufus - at least for now. It may be some sort of combination of cerenia, onda, pepcid, and mirilax (how is the constipation issue going?). Some kitties just do need the extra help. Hopefully the cerenia helped him this afternoon.
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Cerenia definelty helped him eat. He ate his whole dinner. Lip smacking still there, but less. I forgot to give him his onda. It seems like everyday is different in what he needs :banghead:

Constipation issues have been better. He is going about every other day. Not a whole lot though, at least what I think it should be. I talked to the vet tech about an xray and then we ended up not doing it as I think we all kind of forgot about doing it. We ended the cisapride on Thurs. I asked The IM if I should get more or ask the other vet for more, but never got an answer. The IM seems very inteligent, however she seems very over worked. Constant running around multiple clients at once.

Did Trixie ever lip smack?
 
LizzieInTexas said:
Ondan will cause constipation also (or make is worse). I know that probably doesn't help but thought you should know. :bighug:
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Yeah, and so does the pepcid. I stopped all meds 2 weeks ago, but had to start again. I just read that pepcid reduces b12 absortion too. I give him a Zobaline each day but was going to stop. Glad I read that so I'll order some more.
 
Sean & Rufus said:
Cerenia definelty helped him eat. He ate his whole dinner. Lip smacking still there, but less. I forgot to give him his onda. It seems like everyday is different in what he needs :banghead:

Constipation issues have been better. He is going about every other day. Not a whole lot though, at least what I think it should be. I talked to the vet tech about an xray and then we ended up not doing it as I think we all kind of forgot about doing it. We ended the cisapride on Thurs. I asked The IM if I should get more or ask the other vet for more, but never got an answer. The IM seems very inteligent, however she seems very over worked. Constant running around multiple clients at once.

Did Trixie ever lip smack?
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Trix never really flat out lip smacked, but she would completely lose her appy and I could tell by her facial expression she was clearly nauseated.

Have you continued the mirilax? Some kitties need it regularly for maintenance. It takes time to figure it out, but unfortunately sometimes there is a balancing act of meds to help them feel good.
 
Amy&TrixieCat said:
Trix never really flat out lip smacked, but she would completely lose her appy and I could tell by her facial expression she was clearly nauseated.

Have you continued the mirilax? Some kitties need it regularly for maintenance. It takes time to figure it out, but unfortunately sometimes there is a balancing act of meds to help them feel good.
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Thats good that she didn't lip smack. That's why it is confusing to me that Rufus does the lip smacking and can be on 3 different anti-nausea meds.

I've been giving Rufus 1/4tsp 2 times a day of Miralax. Not sure if that is enough or not. As long as he goes every other day I'll keep it as is.
 
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