4 months remmision, getting slightly more blues

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Becki and sox, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    Hi guys so just an update on soxs numbers were still doing pretty good but we are starting to get a few more blues but still thinking were pretty stable at the moment.

    @MrWorfMen's Mom @Rachel @Djamila
    Hope every ones good :)
     
  2. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Becki, Nice to hear from you. Sox is looking Ok but I agree a couple of those blues are a bit concerning (140). I think I'd monitor Sox a little more closely right now doing a morning and night fasting BG (no food for 2 hours) for a couple of days to see if the blues are continuing to happen and if so perhaps a quick check in with the vet to make sure there are no dental issues needing attention as that often is the culprit that sets our sweet kitties back.
    Just guessing that some of your checks have been done after a meal (I presume Sox is still on low carb diet). Any chance Sox might have gotten into something he shouldn't have?
     
  3. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    The last checks of a night are +2 hours after eating. Most of the other checks are done before food or +3 hrs or longer after food.

    Food is still the same. I have had to start feeding Tobi something different as he's so picky but if he doesn't usually eat it all I'll put it away so Sox can't get to it.
    Only thing he had different today was a little bit of gammon. If that could possibly raise blood sugars... I don't know?

    Other than that he seems good... His furs still nice clean and shiny and has put a little weight back on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2019
  4. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    So Tobi is eating a higher carb food than Sox? I have a similar problem here and meal time is like a rodeo. My xtra sweet girl will pilfer her brother's food in a heart beat and if I let my guard down for even a second, that stealthy girl will have her face planted in someone else's bowl. Such fun playing lunchroom monitor for the kitties.

    One would expect the BG a couple of hours after a meal to remain essentially unchanged or to go down due to insulin production during the meal. I suppose a slight food bump could occur but that 135 and 140 are definitely higher than a normal food bump. Assuming you didn't have a nice brown sugar glaze on the gammon, I don't think that should cause that big a rise in BG.
    I'd keep an eye on him. Hopefully he'll go back to the greens and stay there!
     
  5. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    Hi Becki! I don't have anything to add that Linda didn't already say -- just wanted to say hello! :):bighug::)
     
  6. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Yeah I've been trying him with his old food and crunchies just cause he turns his nose up do much. But like I say I do make sure it's away if he doesn't eat it.

    No there was no glaze and wasn't overly salty eaithe.

    Yes I'm hoping so... I think I've realised with Sox that he always runs a little higher than the other cat but I think that's just normal for him.

    Hello hope your ok :)

    When would I know if I need to start giving insulin again? Would it be when we're getting all blue numbers?
    Also my vial of prozinc has been open for 5 months now would that be any good still?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 1:06 AM
  7. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    The odd higher number will happen for any number of reasons (Oh look there's a squirrel!....:woot:) but if you check Sox a little more frequently for the next couple of days and find he's spending more time in the blues (say over 105 or so) than the greens, then I'd check in with the vet to see if there might be a dental issue brewing that is pushing his numbers up and then decide if insulin or some other treatment is needed.

    If you roll the vial does it have "floaties" in it or does it go milky smooth? I could be wrong but I think some folks get 6 months out of their vials so it may or may not still be good.
     
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  8. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    @MrWorfMen's Mom how many days would you say testing abit more regular before contacting the vets.
    If you look at the spreadsheet for end of Jan beginning of Feb he did have a patch of blues then and settled down again. So I'm hopping he will just do the same again.

    It seems to just go milky like it was when I had it to be fair.
     
  9. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I see what you mean in Jan/Feb but Sox has had a couple of higher readings the last few days and they are closer together. What you really want to look for is a trend rather than one off higher numbers. The other thing you can try is to check about 3 hours after a meal if you get one of those higher AM readings. It should be down after the meal if his pancreas is working well. If the higher trend continues for a week or you see any further elevation, I'd definitely consider a vetty visit just to be on the safe side.
     
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  10. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    He has yes... Really hoping he's not coming out of remmision I go on holiday next month and have no one to give insulin do I'm hoping he sorts him self out. I'm hoping he maybe just might be having a slightly under the weather few days then goes back down.
    I'll give him a week and see how he goes and then get him in the vets next week if his numbers are still trending higher.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 12:16 PM
  11. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    We'll keep our fingers crossed that this is just a blip and Sox gets back to more green readings very soon. :)
     
  12. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    I'm hoping so else I'm going to have to leave him a week while I'm away with out insulin if he goes back on to it. Keeping fingers crossed.
     
  13. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    ummm....what's gammon? :oops:

    And yes, the insulin can last about six months if it's well cared for.

    While I'm not loving these numbers, I wouldn't start insulin at this point anyway. You've done a great job of keeping up on the testing through his remission, so we can get a pretty good picture of where his "normal" is, and like you said, he's had a blip like this before, so fingers and paws crossed that he settles down soon. If you suspect anything, definitely take him to the vet. If everything seems quite fine, then try a few super ordinary things like making sure he's well hydrated (maybe a little extra water in the food), and give him some good solid active play time - get his heart and breathing going a little so he's getting good exercise. Cats are often most willing to play hard a little before meal times as it builds on their natural instinct to hunt and "kill" whey they want to eat.

    Sometimes just some normal healthy habits can help keep a kitty on the right track.
     
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  14. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Gammon is like a thicker piece of bacon lol.

    At what point would you be thinking he would need to start on insulin again number wise if I get him checked at vets and all else is fine?

    I'm going to take him to vets tonight just for a quick MOT and then if they say that he's all fine I'll just take the wait and monitor approach.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 5:26 AM
  15. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Does exercise help with blood sugars? To be fair as he's an indoor cat he doesn't really have loads of play time.
     
  16. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Mild to moderate exercice is known to help control BG however a rousing hunt could temporarily cause BG elevation. It really depends on the intensity of the exercice. If there is enough circulating glucose to fuel the muscles for the activity the BG could drop but if the intensity is such that more glucose is needed, the body produces hormones to increase the circulating glucose from stores (similar to the bounce phenomenon) and BG could increase.
     
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  17. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Will just see what the vet says tonight if they give him the all clear at least then we know it maybe a insulin jobby again at some point.

    What numbers would I be looking at and how long for before I would start shooting insulin again?
     
  18. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    That's a tough question. It would be much easier to figure out if we all had a baseline to know if our kitty normally (before DX) ran in the lower or higher range of normal BG. If I started seeing numbers 11 or above on a regular basis, I think I'd definitely hop back on the insulin right away. Anything in the mid to high blues, occurring consistently with no drops to green, might also warrant some insulin. If the blues continue to be periodic occurrences with greens mixed in, then I think a little closer monitoring and wait and see approach would be sufficient.

    Our kitties are pretty tough creatures and as long as they are below renal threshold (not spilling glucose into their urine) they can be quite healthy despite BG being a bit elevated. Sugar in the urine usually occurs somewhere between roughly 11-14 (different for each cat). I'd keep an eye on Sox for any increase in water consumption, urine output, insatiable appetite or weight loss as those would suggest something is changing and definitely warrant increased monitoring and a vet check to confirm whether the remission has been lost or there is something else going on.
     
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  19. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Yes that would make it alot easier wouldn't it.

    And yes we will keep a close eye on him over the next few weeks.

    And just get him checked out at the vets tonight to rule out and dental problems or anything else that maybe causing an issue with him.
     
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  20. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Let us know what the vet says and keep us posted. :D
     
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  21. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Oct 29, 2018
    So vet says he does have slight dental issues but nothing to be too concerned about at the moment.
    But sox has pud weight on since last weigh in that could be affecting his blood sugars.
    In January he weighed 5kg today he was 6.2kg so we've obviously been over feeding him... Would this weight gain affect his BG do you think?
    Also when I asked the vet an ideal weight for Sox and how much food we should aim to give him a day the vet said he couldn't help I'd have to book back with the nurse (more money making I think)
    There indoor cats so not really sure how much I should feed a day.
     
  22. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    All in all that sounds like a pretty positive report although I'd definitely keep an eye on the dental issues. And yes we do have to keep our kitties waist lines under control as that can indeed affect their BG.

    If 5kg is a good weight for Sox the formula for calculating maintenance caloric needs is 30 X 5 kg. +70 = 220 calories/day. This is a rough calculation and Sox may need a bit more or less depending on activity level and his metabolism. Somewhere on the food container or on their website, they should tell you how many calories are in the food either per ounce or X grams or per can.

    You want Sox to lose weight gradually so reduce his calories by roughly 30 or 40 calories from what he is currently eating and check his weight weekly even if it means you have to get on the scale holding him. Some folks use baby scales but if you have a relatively accurate human scale I think that works just fine. When he has lost a pound, then recalculate his food needs again reducing the calories slightly until you get him to the his ideal weight. Once at ideal weight, check again to make sure the calories you are feeding are keeping him there.

    And if you aren't currently splitting food up into several smaller meals, that would help to keep Sox more satisfied as you reduce his portions slightly.
     
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  23. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    I've looked on the tins and on website and can't see anything about calories. :(

    I just looked on @Elizabeth and Bertie food list and it say 82.8kcal per 100g

    I currently feed the cats 60g of food 4x a day so a total of 240g a day. So I wondered about reducing to 55g 4x a day a total of 220g of food. See how we get on with that and the reduce to 50g if needed and do on.

    If my maths is right which I wouldn't rely on lol and if the Cals are right he's been getting around 200 to 220 kcals at the moment anyways. Unless he's eating left overs of the others foods too.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 2:31 PM
  24. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a plan but if that's the calorie count it suggests you have only been feeding Sox about 200 calories per day which one wouldn't think would result in weight gain. HMMMM! Try it and see if he loses any weight. You are also going to have to be sure your other other kitties get the right amount for them to maintain their weight unless they too need to slim down a tad.
    ETA sounds like Sox may have been pilfering or he's eaten too much gammon lately! :woot:
     
  25. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    I know that's what I was thinking :confused:

    I think Sox Luna and Nova could all benefit from a bit of a diet lol.

    I think he's been pinching other food too lol
     
  26. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    If they are couch potato kitties then their calorie requirements would be lower or perhaps they have slow metabolisms. Either way, you know what you were feeding and that a little weight loss is in order so you can control their food intake without worrying about starving them!:smuggrin:
     
  27. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    Haha yes that sounds like them. Lol

    Yes definitely I'll drop to 55g or 50g and try that first :)
     
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  28. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    While of course it's possible to be overweight even on a healthy diet, it's somewhat unusual for a cat on a low-carb wet diet to gain too much weight. So maybe be extra vigilant to see if Sox is sneaking food, finding lost kibble under the fridge, licking plates in the sink, etc.

    I would consider getting him a dental if the vet has noticed anything - no matter how minor. Dental issues are such a big deal for our sugar cats, and many vets (including mine) don't realize how directly the two interact.

    As for when to consider restarting insulin, I agree with what Linda said in post #18.

    And as for exercise - yes, it can temporarily raise BG during/immediately after play. However in the big picture, it is beneficial, both in terms of BG management and in overall health. Especially for indoor cats who tend to be much less active than their free-ranging neighbors. Both in terms of physical benefit and mental stimulation, daily active play is really important. My civvie doesn't like to play, so I have to throw treats down the hall and make him trot back and forth to get them. Gives me a little exercise too as I have to keep switching ends of the hallway so he'll go the other way! Sam has decided he's bored with the wand toys, so I've been training him to jump through a hula hoop! It's a little hit and miss still, but hilariously fun for both of us to work on this new skill!
     
  29. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Djamila They still make hula hoops? Gotta get me one! That sounds like fun! :woot:
     
  30. Becki and sox

    Becki and sox Member

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    That's what I thought. But I'm thinking he's probably eating extra food when we set the automatic feeders and are not there to watch.

    Do feeding times have to be bang on every day like say there lunch time feed. Could it be fed at 12.30 one day but then about 2.30/3 another day. Just thinking then we can work feeding round shifts and watch them rather than using the automatic feeders?

    Yeah Sox is abut like this and gets bored really easily... Even with the chucking of treats o_O

    Bless him that must be so cute to watch.
     
  31. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    They do indeed! Sam does great going over it when it's low, but as soon as I raise it higher than his head, he just walks under it. Such a logical and efficient little kitty -- no sense in jumping when you can simply stroll to the other side for the treat! :smuggrin:
     
  32. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

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    That probably depends on the cat. Mine can tell time better than I can! They know exactly when it's time for a meal or snack, so changing it would be hard. However, I suppose if they got used to feeding time being random, it might be okay. Kind of like people: some people like their meals to be consistent and get quite hungry when it's time. other people eat at random times each day and don't mind the inconsistency at all.

    Atty will also run back and forth for a little brushing. So maybe there is something else that could motivate Sox if treats don't do it? My vet suggested moving the food bowl around, and spreading meals into multiple bowls so they have to at least walk around to find the food.

    The more I play with them, they more willing they are to engage. Honestly I get a little bored with it too, so it's a discipline for me as well to get them moving every day. I'm perfectly content to just snuggle them!
     
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  33. Tina R

    Tina R Member

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    Dec 27, 2017
    A little side comment. BG is high after exercise/play since our muscles need glucose. This is true for humans too.

    Anyway, the only other thing I want to add is how important it is to get a dental done on your kitty. If you can afford it—I would suggest getting it done sooner rather than later.
    I know @Djamila already mentioned it, so I won’t go into details as to why.
     
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