6/8 Samba AMPS 273 PMPS 357 +1 365 +2 353 +3 328

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Barring something very usual, I will be raising his dose to 3 units tomorrow night since that will be after 10 cycles on 2.75u :nailbiting:
 
Hi Sarah

We were discussing managing the curve with food and from your 6/6 condo, it does appear that you have started trying to do this. I’m posting this here because, of your work schedule, you haven’t had a chance to post a 6/9 condo and with the three hour time zone between us, I might not be able to catch you so ...here we go.

First, not all cats need the curve managed with food. The ones that typically do are the ones that like to dive and bounce or ones that are really carb sensitive. What do we expect when we manage the curve with food (i.e. what is the goal?):

manage the curve with food -----> flatten the curve -------> adjust the dose (if necessary)

Managing the curve with food often results in flattening the curve at higher numbers. This allows you to then safely get more insulin in the kitty. Rather than recreate a discussion on managing the curve with food, I’m just going to link an excellent one: Managing the Curve with Food and scroll down to post #15 (see posts numbers in a condo in the bottom right corner).

Here are a few things you need to know about Samba to effectively manage his curve with food:
  • when is his onset, nadir, and what is his duration (you can review these terms at New to the Group Sticky. If you need any further explanation of these terms, please let me know).
  • does he get any carryover or overlap (also in the New to the Group sticky)
  • how does Samba react to different %carbs of food and does he react differently during the cycle (i.e. early as opposed to late)
Here is how you are currently feeding him (from 6/6 condo):
I feed him Fancy Feast Classics and a total of 10.5oz a day.

On week days:
AMPS: 1.5oz
+0.5: 1.5oz (when I leave for work)
+1: 0.75oz (timed feeder)
+3: 0.75oz (timed feeder)
+5: 0.75oz (timed feeder)
+7: 0.75oz (timed feeder)
PMPS: 1.5oz
Then 1.5oz at each of the next two testing times (e.g., if you see that I tested again at +1 and +2, then I fed 1.5oz at each of those times, or if you see that I tested again at +1 and +4, then I fed 1.5oz at each of those times, etc.)

On Saturdays and Sundays:
AMPS: 1.5oz
Then 1.5oz at each of the next three testing times
PMPS: 1.5oz
Then 1.5oz at each of the next two testing times
Click to expand...

Here are some basic guidelines that might help you fine tune this. And remember....ECID!! While many lantus cats that need food management do well with food at PS, +1, +2, +3, some need a different plan or different portions at each time. You will have to experiment to find what works for Samba.
  • consistency helps; I’d try to find a feeding plan that works every cycle, every day of the week instead of changing up the feeding from a.m. to p.m. and on weekends
  • feeding after nadir puts the brakes on the action of the insulin which results, often, in a shorter duration, which (in turn) means the PS will be higher
  • bounces can be caused by low numbers but also by big drops (in fact, my girl always bounced harder from a big drop than a low number)
  • it helps to test a little more early in the cycle on the cycles you are home (e.g. nights and weekends) for a short time so you can find out when he dives. Is it always, for example, at +2? Does it change? Does he only do it on a bounce clearing cycle?
  • don’t assume that he will drop the same mg/dL each hour; in other words, if you test at +2 and he’s down 100 from PS, don’t assume he came down at a steady rate of 50 mg/dL an hour; he might have dropped 30 mg/dL to +1 and 70 to +2
And here are some of my recommendations for Samba right now based on his SS (other members....please do not follow this advice; it is only for Samba at this point. It might change for him as his curves change. Your cat might need something totally different...or no management at all).
  • he gets 10.5 oz food/day so I would divide this into 5.25 oz each cycle
  • because cats that dive, typically do so early in the cycle (+1, +2, +3), I’d front load the cycle at AMPS and +1 to start and then see how you need to adjust it; an example might be to feed 1.5 oz at AMPS and +1 and then 1.12 oz at +2 and +3; you might find you need to even feed more at AMPS and +1 if he’s dropping earlier than +2 or another option would be to feed 1.5 oz at AMPS, +1, +2 and 0.75 oz at +3
  • if he gets hungry later in the cycle, leave him LC freeze dried treats like chicken; these usually will not impact the BG when fed after nadir; just be sure you don’t go overboard because they are used as a snack and should not be a meal
  • on cycles when you are home, I’d try and test as much at PS, +1, +2, and +3 for several cycles (especially if it looks like he’s coming down instead of going up) and see if you can catch when he drops. Also, does he get a food spike at +1? All of the time? Some of the time? Never?
  • as you do these tests from above and you see him start to drop, decide what food is best to control the drop. Remember that the amount of drop and how significant it is depends on the cat. With my Gracie when I knew she was going to come down fast early and I checked hourly, if she had one test that was 50 mg/dL less than the hour before, I applied the brakes with 10-12% but that was for her. And it also depends on where they start from......the higher they start, the bigger the potential drop. A cat that starts at 300 has a lot more room to drop than a cat that starts at 100 (i.e. starting at 300, they could even drop 100 in one hour whereas the cat starting at 100 might just drop 40 in one hour).
  • you might see some members tell you to not use HC unless he’s below 50 mg/dL. I, personally, disagree specifically if it’s early in the cycle and he’s dropping fast. If you know how much of a drop will cause a bounce in Samba, use the carbs you need to slow him down but not send him back up or demolish his duration. This is a tough one to figure out but if you know how carb sensitive he is, it can become a fine art to know how to balance the carbs with the action of the insulin. If you feed an early drop with MC or HC to slow him down and then he shoots back up fast ( e.g. Blue to pink in 1.5 hours), it’s not a bounce starting....it’s his duration being nipped by the carbs. A bounce might start on top of the lack of duration, though. Don’t worry if this happens at first....it’s a learning curve. All data is good.
  • once you figure out a feeding schedule and have gathered the data from above, I would religiously get a +2 every single cycle that you are home; you can get so much info about the cycle with a +2
    • if the +2 is more than meter variance higher than the PS, it’s likely to be a quiet cycle
    • if the +2 is about the same or within meter variance of the PS, it’s likely to be an active cycle with onset at +2/+3
    • if the +2 is more than meter variance below the PS, it’s most likely going to be a very active cycle
I’ve dumped a lot of info on you above plus what is in the post I linked. When you have a chance to read through it, please let me know what makes sense, what doesn’t, what questions you have. Sound good? As you absorb and understand that, I can post more info on what happens when you get the cycle flattened.
 
Last edited:
Marje and Gracie said:
Hi Sarah

We were discussing managing the curve with food and from your 6/6 condo, it does appear that you have started trying to do this. I’m posting this here because, of your work schedule, you haven’t had a chance to post a 6/9 condo and with the three hour time zone between us, I might not be able to catch you so ...here we go.

First, not all cats need the curve managed with food. The ones that typically do are the ones that like to dive and bounce or ones that are really carb sensitive. What do we expect when we manage the curve with food (i.e. what is the goal?):

manage the curve with food -----> flatten the curve -------> adjust the dose (if necessary)

Managing the curve with food often results in flattening the curve at higher numbers. This allows you to then safely get more insulin in the kitty. Rather than recreate a discussion on managing the curve with food, I’m just going to link an excellent one: Managing the Curve with Food and scroll down to post #15 (see posts numbers in a condo in the bottom right corner).

Here are a few things you need to know about Samba to effectively manage his curve with food:
  • when is his onset, nadir, and what is his duration (you can review these terms at New to the Group Sticky. If you need any further explanation of these terms, please let me know).
  • does he get any carryover or overlap (also in the New to the Group sticky)
  • how does Samba react to different %carbs of food and does he react differently during the cycle (i.e. early as opposed to late)
Here is how you are currently feeding him (from 6/6 condo):


Here are some basic guidelines that might help you fine tune this. And remember....ECID!! While many lantus cats that need food management do well with food at PS, +1, +2, +3, some need a different plan or different portions at each time. You will have to experiment to find what works for Samba.
  • consistency helps; I’d try to find a feeding plan that works every cycle, every day of the week instead of changing up the feeding from a.m. to p.m. and on weekends
  • feeding after nadir puts the brakes on the action of the insulin which results, often, in a shorter duration, which (in turn) means the PS will be higher
  • bounces can be caused by low numbers but also by big drops (in fact, my girl always bounced harder from a big drop than a low number)
  • it helps to test a little more early in the cycle on the cycles you are home (e.g. nights and weekends) for a short time so you can find out when he dives. Is it always, for example, at +2? Does it change? Does he only do it on a bounce clearing cycle?
  • don’t assume that he will drop the same mg/dL each hour; in other words, if you test at +2 and he’s down 100 from PS, don’t assume he came down at a steady rate of 50 mg/dL an hour; he might have dropped 30 mg/dL to +1 and 70 to +2
And here are some of my recommendations for Samba right now based on his SS (other members....please do not follow this advice; it is only for Samba at this point. It might change for him as his curves change. Your cat might need something totally different...or no management at all).
  • he gets 10.5 oz food/day so I would divide this into 5.25 oz each cycle
  • because cats that dive, typically do so early in the cycle (+1, +2, +3), I’d front load the cycle at AMPS and +1 to start and then see how you need to adjust it; an example might be to feed 1.5 oz at AMPS and +1 and then 1.12 oz at +2 and +3; you might find you need to even feed more at AMPS and +1 if he’s dropping earlier than +2 or another option would be to feed 1.5 oz at AMPS, +1, +2 and 0.75 oz at +3
  • if he gets hungry later in the cycle, leave him LC freeze dried treats like chicken; these usually will not impact the BG when fed after nadir; just be sure you don’t go overboard because they are used as a snack and should not be a meal
  • on cycles when you are home, I’d try and test as much at PS, +1, +2, and +3 for several cycles (especially if it looks like he’s coming down instead of going up) and see if you can catch when he drops. Also, does he get a food spike at +1? All of the time? Some of the time? Never?
  • as you do these tests from above and you see him start to drop, decide what food is best to control the drop. Remember that the amount of drop and how significant it is depends on the cat. With my Gracie when I knew she was going to come down fast early and I checked hourly, if she had one test that was 50 mg/dL less than the hour before, I applied the brakes with 10-12% but that was for her. And it also depends on where they start from......the higher they start, the bigger the potential drop. A cat that starts at 300 has a lot more room to drop than a cat that starts at 100 (i.e. starting at 300, they could even drop 100 in one hour whereas the cat starting at 100 might just drop 40 in one hour).
  • you might see some members tell you to not use HC unless he’s below 50 mg/dL. I, personally, disagree specifically if it’s early in the cycle and he’s dropping fast. If you know how much of a drop will cause a bounce in Samba, use the carbs you need to slow him down but not send him back up or demolish his duration. This is a tough one to figure out but if you know how carb sensitive he is, it can become a fine art to know how to balance the carbs with the action of the insulin. If you feed an early drop with MC or HC to slow him down and then he shoots back up fast ( e.g. Blue to pink in 1.5 hours), it’s not a bounce starting....it’s his duration being nipped by the carbs. A bounce might start on top of the lack of duration, though. Don’t worry if this happens at first....it’s a learning curve. All data is good.
  • once you figure out a feeding schedule and have gathered the data from above, I would religiously get a +2 every single cycle that you are home; you can get so much info about the cycle with a +2
    • if the +2 is more than meter variance higher than the PS, it’s likely to be a quiet cycle
    • if the +2 is about the same or within meter variance of the PS, it’s likely to be an active cycle with onset at +2/+3
    • if the +2 is more than meter variance below the PS, it’s most likely going to be a very active cycle
I’ve dumped a lot of info on you above plus what is in the post I linked. When you have a chance to read through it, please let me know what makes sense, what doesn’t, what questions you have. Sound good? As you absorb and understand that, I can post more info on what happens when you get the cycle flattened.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much, Marje... have read this twice along with the other post you asked me to read and am still processing, but I will try it out tonight (feeding the curve). Since Samba already had 2 cans of FF (6oz) during his AM cycle today, I will be feeding him 4.5oz tonight and then splitting the 10.5oz equally into 5.25oz and 5.25oz per cycle starting tomorrow. I already have some questions and might need some help, so for future replies to the above, how should I handle that? Should I inbox you or tag you in my new condo for the day if I have a question? I get the sense that I am not supposed to be posting replies anymore to this thread since it is dated yesterday...

I will try to get in the habit of posting a thread for the day in the morning instead of at night after work if that's better... THANKS :bighug::cat:
 
Marje and Gracie said:
  • if the +2 is more than meter variance higher than the PS, it’s likely to be a quiet cycle
  • if the +2 is about the same or within meter variance of the PS, it’s likely to be an active cycle with onset at +2/+3
  • if the +2 is more than meter variance below the PS, it’s most likely going to be a very active cycle
Click to expand...
How much should I account for meter variance? Is it 20%?
 
Sarah Mc said:
Thank you so much, Marje... have read this twice along with the other post you asked me to read and am still processing, but I will try it out tonight (feeding the curve). Since Samba already had 2 cans of FF (6oz) during his AM cycle today, I will be feeding him 4.5oz tonight and then splitting the 10.5oz equally into 5.25oz and 5.25oz per cycle starting tomorrow. I already have some questions and might need some help, so for future replies to the above, how should I handle that? Should I inbox you or tag you in my new condo for the day if I have a question? I get the sense that I am not supposed to be posting replies anymore to this thread since it is dated yesterday...

I will try to get in the habit of posting a thread for the day in the morning instead of at night after work if that's better... THANKS :bighug::cat:
Click to expand...
If you tag me, I'll check in each day and I can you don't hear back from me that day, then PM me and I'll look for a condo. If it's hard to do a condo in the mornings when you work, please don't worry. I can easily catch the evening ones and post something before I go to bed.

It's absolutely fine to start dividing the food tomorrow. You're welcome!!!! Bring the questions ON!:joyful::):bighug:
 
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