ANTONE HERE? TOM IS HURTING AT HIS SUBQ SITE.

He just is not well tonight guys... :sad: he is swollen at his subQ site....6 hours ago! and it hurts him.
When Tom says OUCH it HURTS for real.
He is sooooo tired tonight...so tired. Only one eye is opened.
He's letting me carry him around, his head on my shoulder. He must no be well to do that.
So...did i shoot wrong...could it be a muscle subq shot?
and prayers again tonight for Tom....he is weak. 24 hours no insulin 88
and one meal, this morning. raw liver.
i can sooooo tell he is in NO MOOD for syringe feeding and I don't want to push it on him.

 

oh lori, i know nothing about sub-q's - want me to flag down someone i know does them? i'm so sorry .. .

 

would you julie...

 

i just sent messages to 2 people that i think do sub-q's - hang on! :YMHUG:

 

How many ml's of fluids did you give? If a cat isn't very dehydrated it can take 6 hours for them to dissipate, especially if it's 100ml or better.

You don't re-use sub-Q needles, do you? That's something I will not do due to the risk of infection at site. I believe that because of the nature of giving sub-Qs under the skin, if they get an infection it can become an abscess , but I'm not too sure about that. Is this the first time you noticed him acting sore there?

Sorry Tom is not feeling well. I haven't kept up with all his goings on. 88 on no insulin is good, but not eating is not good. Are you sure you can't try some syringed food for him? What about giving some Pepcid AC? Do you have any of that? Dose is 2.5mg BID. When Gandalf doesn't want to eat as well I give him Pepcid AC - famotidine is the generic name.

Have you ever taken his temperature? Yes, you know where. I ask because if there is a skin infection it may cause an elevated temp. Normal is 101 to 102.

Hang in there, dear.

 

Vicky he is getting a brand new needle every time. he got about 1.5 whatever it comes in the bag. It never stuck around this long before, usually all gone in a hour or less. and never hurts him...like now when i touch it he winces.
he is weak, only one eye open.
he is sooo not in the mood for the syringe food tonight. i can tell. he might go for a little raw liver.
and i've been at this awhile, a couple of weeks now so i can read him.
just think i must have made some shooting mistake...i shot lower on his back than usual. maybe got it into muscle?

 

Lori

Is there any chance at all that you could have inserted the needle in muscle....if you did, he would have screeched like crazy. Do you move the site around and not always give it in the same site?

I'm not sure what could be going on. Vicki makes some good points....he should be totally absorbing all fluids before you give more.

I'm sorry I can't be of more help....we've been doing subqs on two cats daily for over a year and never had anything like this occur.

I'm also sorry he's not feeling well. I wonder if it would help him if you held a compress to it?

 

oh and we've done the pepcid ac...and the script anti nausea pill onodean or something. i took it during chemo. he has'nt had them for 2 days...he was eating a bit better yesterday.
the rollercoaster is he is good one day i get alllll YAY and bad the next and my heart is like a rock!
he was good this morning...tonight very very tired. very wealk

 

only difference this time was kind of shot a new place...more on his back, off side of spine. this is more of a swelling feels like. the absorbtion i think is done.
just thought it might have been a muscle and maybe i bruised it.
he did not get hurt during the process, he was calm and fine.

 

yes i have taken his temp in the past. i will do that now. he does'nt mind. he's such a trooper.

 

from what you're describing, honestly, i'd give your vet a call and ask.

 

I am sure if you call an ER clinic to ask what they think, they're going to tell you to take him in, but you might try calling one. I suppose you could have nicked a muscle when inserting the needle, but if you pulled up plenty of skin to slide the needle under, it should have stayed under the skin. I was initially shown I could do sub-Q's elsewhere on the body than the scruff, but I quickly discovered the least sensitive place is the scruff.

If you used a different area, it probably just feels very unusual to him. Other areas are more sensitive than the scruff and you're inserting a big needle - what gauge is it? If it's 18 that's pretty big. I like 21 Gauge.

If you rotate sides of the scruff and further forward or back from day to day, you can give fluids in the scruff consistently. I've been doing fluids for Gandalf for 3 years now and a hyper-T/CRF cat Tigget this year too. Never had this kind of issue, so I'm throwing things out there for you. The temp thing occurred to me because of infection, but sounds like this developed too suddenly to be an abscess and it's a new area. If it had been the same area you'd been using, I'd say the likelihood of infection would be much greater.

 

If you envision a saddle on a cat, you can safely give fluids anywhere under the saddle. I still think if you had nicked a muscle, he would have let you know....

Sometimes, different areas form different pockets that are harder than other areas....it's just the way the fluid sits in it. I wonder if that could be it?

I agree that I would check in with the vet asap.

 

Hi, Lori...

had no idea Tom wasn't doing well...

sending all sorts of prayers, vines, and healing energy your way.

celi & binks

 

temp is 102.3
he just pooped, small one but still a poop.
and i just gave him an anti nausea, not before presenting him with
1. raw chicken livers ---- 2 bites
2. ff turkey and gravey----no, none of it
3. chicken and gravey baby food, in soupy fashion----no say's he, not so much in the mood.
4. crack..nope
5. temptation treats...ahhhh, well, no.

then i gave the anti nausea.
carried him around some and he did not complain when i (cuz i just HAVE to, touched his spot)

thanks guys,,,,his weakness tonight, coupled with the owie spot got me nervouse.

 

Compress sounds like a good idea, not sure whether warm or cold would be better though. I don't like your describing him as weak. How so? More weak than he has been? What can that be from? Is it possible he has low potassium? I think that's the one which causes severe weakness if it's low. Are you giving lactated ringers or a different kind of fluid? Lactated ringers have potassium chloride added, so if you are giving those, low potassium shouldn't be a problem.

Is the area you gave the fluids extra warm or hard feeling?

Just throwing more stuff at you to consider. I'm trying to find a list of the different kinds of fluids but coming up dry....
:lol:

Hope you laughed.

I'm off to bed, hope he shows more interest in food. Good that he let you touch the spot. It may just be sore. Get well soon, Tom Tom.

 

thank you Celi...he's been inappetent for nearly a month. always has been a hoover. sooooo, just trying everything ya know....

 

Dearest Lori, and, of course, you too, not feeling so well, handsome Tom Tom,

Two vets trained me to give fluids to Giz. Her long-time ER vet (non ER emergency) went between the shoulders on full flow with one vet tech in the room and two hovering outside the entrance if assistance was needed. Said to me and all in attendance, we need to move fast with Giz. So fast, that apparently, when Giz was done, she separated herself from the needle, jumped off that chrome table (why do they have to be cold chrome?), scared the crap out everyone because she was loose, even though all she wanted was to get back in her carrier (which she'd never gone to willingly...) and, unfortunately, the door was closed. I gently pushed her back a tad and opened the door. This happened when we were told, once a week fluids might be a good thing... She was late 16 at the time...

A few months later, at age 17, her regular vet showed me his version with two vet techs in attendance, one in elbow length falconer gloves. He chose to do half on one flank and half on the other. Giz chose, if you can call it choosing, one flank was it. The other flank made us all think about umbrellas... Again, she scared the crap out of everyone but me. I knew where she was heading, so I opened the door. This happened when we were told three times a week would be a good thing... I told her vet, I'm only going to have one chance with this cat, so switching sides is not an option. He agreed. Said go between the shoulders...

So, when it came time to do the deed myself, and after practicing on a towel wrapped to the size of Giz and making it growl and move back and forth like Giz, and timing how long it takes on full flow (2 minutes depending on dose and size of needle the size of small states) -- with Giz watching mesmerized the entire time by my side -- I finally did the deed, you know, maybe like two days later. And we did our best on and off for maybe a month or two. I learned to cover electrical equipment...

The thing I learned dancing with Giz was that whatever she was willing to do, I'd learn how to do it. But, quite frankly, I think she preferred me practicing giving fluids to the towel and watching rather than receiving... I knew, in my heart, that probably meant less time in the long run. But, I knew in my heart, it meant more comfortable time for Giz in the short run. I always told her whatever would be, would be based on her decision. I always respected Gizzie's mind and her heart...

I learned such incredible grace and fortitude from this most ornery cat when she understood tests and shots made her feel better. Giz defined treats and sugar cat math: tests + TREATS + shots = feeling better! And, she did!

She just couldn't come up with math for the fluids. I respected her for that, too.

One sunny Tuesday morning in May, woke up to Giz staring at me. That was certainly not unusual as we had done that for 18 years! But, that morning it was. She was staring at me with such great love and warmth. I was like, finally, I've done something right! But, at that moment, my heart knew our days, hours, or minutes were numbered... And, they were. Two nights later, she danced her last steps in my arms at home exactly where she chose on her own terms...





Dearest Lori, I'm not saying this is where you and handsome Tom are. Actually, I'm going to speak for Giz who would suggest you go beyond the envelope. Giz would suggest pastrami. Okay, and peach yogurt. And cheese, preferably extra sharp cheddar. Maybe provolone or mozzarella, if Tom's in an Italian mood. Muenster or Monterrey Jack could work. Cheese can be a hand-held thing so you might have to climb up that hill, but wear a harness...

Giz appreciated service and spirit!



Keeping you both close in our hearts, thoughts, and hungry healing prayers.

Much love and countless hopeful healing hugs for you both,
Deb and Nikki -- and, Giz, who taught me everything about my fridge and pantry and what she might like to eat that meal...

 

Dear Ms. Lori (my personal helper-spirit lifter-great shoulders to cry on), I am soo sorry to hear about Mr.TOMTOM! You tell him to eat, get to feeling better to give his well deserved mommy a lift, smile and some hope!
I really hope this post this a.m. finds him eating when you guys get around!
Please keep us posted and he sounds like such a trooper indeed!
SENDING MY HUGS TO YA!

 

Lori, sorry I didn't see this last night. I hope that Tom is feeling better today. I've done subQs for years on different cats for renal failure and for pancreatitis. My GA Tabriz on occasion had sore spots from subQs that we attributed to irritation or mild infection under the skin. The spots would be a little puffy, were sore to touch, didn't feel like normal subQ fluid. When it happened I'd either skip fluids for a day or two or tried to avoid that spot for a while if he could not go without fluids. If it didn't go away in a few days he was at the vet. Once we did give antibiotics because we felt he had something going on under there and that cleared it up quickly.

Are you still using Normosol as a fluid? I'll repeat my feeling that you'd have less chance of irritation if you switch to Lactated Ringers (no dextrose). You also should ensure that he fully absorbs all fluid before giving more. If you give too much subQ fluid it can lead to fluid buildup internally around the heart or lungs. Is Tom breathing rapidly at all? If so, get him to an ER immediately.

If he's still unwell, I hope you will get him to a vet today. Weakness isn't a good thing, nor is potential infection. With all the lack of eating and dehydration this past month, it would be a really, really good idea to do a CBC as well as other diagnostic profiles to check potassium level, liver, and kidney function. Liver function in particular is important given his lack of eating these past few weeks as FHL is a real concern.

Hugs to you and Tom.

 

1.5 WHAT ? are you giving 150 ml. That would be quite a lot. Usually 100 ml is maximum
for one Sub-Q session.

Are you giving any B-vitamins to supplement ? With that much fluid, he can -pee out all much
of the B-vitamins in his system (water soluable), and that can cause weakness. I would check
with your nurse friend and get her to explain the fluid amounts in the bag. You seem confused.

Also, I would check with your vet for B-vitamins you can add to the fluids in the bag to make
sure he is getting enough B-vitamins.

 

Larger cats can take more fluid, though. Most normal sized cats take 100ml but larger ones can take 150ml in a session provided they absorb it all before any more is given. My smaller cat usually takes 75-100ml depending on her hydration. My GA Tabriz weighed 11lb. at his fighting form, so his usual amount was 100ml. If he was severely dehydrated, with vet approval we'd sometimes increase that to 150-200ml per day, though I usually split that into two sessions as I didn't like giving more than 100ml per time. He had renal failure though, and could get extremely dehydrated at times. The key is ensuring he absorbs it all before giving any more. If you feel any fluid pockets under the skin by the next time he's due, do not give any more until the other is absorbed.

This is a good reference on how much to give and why need to be careful as to how much: http://www.felinecrf.org/subcutaneous_fluids.htm#amount_of_fluids

 

OK Friends, I know there have been several threads, dozens, about Tom lately.
For the record. TOM HAS BEEN TO THE VET. HE'S HAD A CBC. NOTHING UNUSUAL WAS FOUND. HE HAD A NERVOUS BREAKDOWN ON WAY TO AND AT VETS. sorry, not yelling...just want to make sure everyone knows.
He is on normosol.
As needed.
150 ml....or as close as i can get...the bag is not very exact when hanging.
the fluids are NOT painful for him
the smaller needles are helping ALOT thank you angels who sent them.
he was a big cat...don't know if he's still big after not eating much for a month.
and he is weak because of not eating well.
HE HAS BEEN AMAZINGLY STRONG AND ACTIVE WELL PAST THE TIME MOST OF US WOULD HAVE BEEN BED RIDDEN FOR LACK OF FOOD!
It's just catching up with him.
And yes Deb, he is showing me love and thoses long gazing looks like never before....sniff.
He and I look at each other...and more beautiful eyes I have never gazed upon.
His expression says I LOVE YOU more clearly than any words, any promise, anything!
He lays is head on my shoulder. That he did not do it the past.
He lets me carry him alot. He holds me. We did not do that before.

Some days he eats, most days he will eat his liver. some days a bit of other food. some days not much of anything.
i have syringed him many times. I KNOW WHEN HE DOES NOT WANT ME TO.

This morning he is walking. He wants out. He ask a wee bit of liver.
Just let him out.

He is scouring the area. No matter how weak, how sick...this is his JOB. he is going to work. he needs to for his sake.
he treats his pokey the same way. it is his job. he gets up out of a slumber when called and sleepily walks over for a pokey BECUASE IT IS HIS JOB. that is my boy Tom. he is different.

 

Oh, and his spot does'nt hurt anymore.

 

Oh Tom.....you are such a strong soldier! Keep giving your mommy lots of hugs...you sound like you both need them! Glad to hear your sub-q site is feeling better. Sending strength good vibes your way.
~Peaches =^..^=