Any advice appreciated

Status
Not open for further replies.
Randi & Effy

Randi & Effy

Member Since 2017
Hey everyone! I'm back with some concerns about Effy. I'm going insane. We just moved into a new home with my sister and her two cats, whom Effy has already previously lived with two years ago in our last rental. All the cats get along great, there hasn't been any problems relationship wise between them all. Effy stopped using his litter box in my last place about two months prior to us moving into this house. We moved here and he used it perfectly for about two weeks until he decided the dining room rug was better. He ruined my 9x12 jute rug, lol. So I had to throw it out, and he's since stopped eliminating under the dining table and has taken to literally anywhere else he wants to go. Mostly it's our clothes, if we accidentally leave a shirt or shorts on the ground it is immediately diarrhea'd on, completely ruined. Almost all other rugs in the house have been ruined and thrown out. And now, he's started peeing in our bed.... particularly while me and my boyfriend are still sleeping in it. This morning we woke up around 40 minutes before his AM shot to him literally standing above our pillows about to pee on our heads, we quickly caught him and moved him but he immediately peed as soon as we got him away from our faces. My boyfriend has had enough, he's at his wits end. Quite honestly, I am too.. These random poops aren't tiny little turds, they are huge mounds of splattered diarrhea. I thought maybe his litter boxes are just a little too far away from the kitchen where he eats as he usually goes to the bathroom right after he eats, but i've caught him walking all the way upstairs to a guest room to poop after eating, so location and distance is not the problem. The boxes are ALWAYS clean because he never uses them. We have 4 downstairs and 4 upstairs, everytime he's been upstairs he has pooped at the top of the stairs or on the floor in the room before the bathroom where the boxes are. I don't understand what's happening. We have feliway diffusers going and he's wearing their calming collar, still nothing is working. I'm going crazy guys, I don't know how to stop him from feeling like he has to poop on our things and pee.... ON US! Lol. We've made sure to cuddle him and make time for lovins individually, we give him treats and play with him, he's got no reason to do this and I don't know what else could be going on. It's not an issue of not holding it in cus when I do catch him and yell his name, he will stop pushing and lay down and wait for me to stop looking before trying to poop again..... Please tell me one of you has fixed this problem with your cat before. I know he's old but can he really start to actually lose his mind?
 
Randi, I'm sorry I don't have any answers, and this is indeed a distressing problem. May I suggest you post in the Main Forum, since this might be a feline health issue, as well as possibly a behavioral issue? Has he been to the vet for a check up? Fecal tests to see if anything is going on there? Does he have IBD?
 
Randi & Effy said:
Hey everyone! I'm back with some concerns about Effy. I'm going insane. We just moved into a new home with my sister and her two cats, whom Effy has already previously lived with two years ago in our last rental. All the cats get along great, there hasn't been any problems relationship wise between them all. Effy stopped using his litter box in my last place about two months prior to us moving into this house. We moved here and he used it perfectly for about two weeks until he decided the dining room rug was better. He ruined my 9x12 jute rug, lol. So I had to throw it out, and he's since stopped eliminating under the dining table and has taken to literally anywhere else he wants to go. Mostly it's our clothes, if we accidentally leave a shirt or shorts on the ground it is immediately diarrhea'd on, completely ruined. Almost all other rugs in the house have been ruined and thrown out. And now, he's started peeing in our bed.... particularly while me and my boyfriend are still sleeping in it. This morning we woke up around 40 minutes before his AM shot to him literally standing above our pillows about to pee on our heads, we quickly caught him and moved him but he immediately peed as soon as we got him away from our faces. My boyfriend has had enough, he's at his wits end. Quite honestly, I am too.. These random poops aren't tiny little turds, they are huge mounds of splattered diarrhea. I thought maybe his litter boxes are just a little too far away from the kitchen where he eats as he usually goes to the bathroom right after he eats, but i've caught him walking all the way upstairs to a guest room to poop after eating, so location and distance is not the problem. The boxes are ALWAYS clean because he never uses them. We have 4 downstairs and 4 upstairs, everytime he's been upstairs he has pooped at the top of the stairs or on the floor in the room before the bathroom where the boxes are. I don't understand what's happening. We have feliway diffusers going and he's wearing their calming collar, still nothing is working. I'm going crazy guys, I don't know how to stop him from feeling like he has to poop on our things and pee.... ON US! Lol. We've made sure to cuddle him and make time for lovins individually, we give him treats and play with him, he's got no reason to do this and I don't know what else could be going on. It's not an issue of not holding it in cus when I do catch him and yell his name, he will stop pushing and lay down and wait for me to stop looking before trying to poop again..... Please tell me one of you has fixed this problem with your cat before. I know he's old but can he really start to actually lose his mind?
Click to expand...
if he has diarrhea he needs a visit to the Vet. period.
The other behavior is something causing the stress. Hes seeing or smelling stray cats outside or just plain doesnt feel good. And in a word YES cats can get dementia but that should be diagnosed ...by a vet jmho i hope others jump in here.
 
He's had the whole run of fecal tests, he's never had solid poops in the years i've had him. No Ibd, nobody knows why his poops are the way they are. They hardened for a few weeks once we were diagnosed diabetic and he switched to FF classics, then the diarrhea came back. But I agree, it's stress I just cannot for the life of me pinpoint the stressor!!!
 
Constant diarrhea is not normal. There has to be some reason. If something is wrong with him, his pain/discomfort from it could explain at least some of his behavior - he may be screaming out to you that something is wrong. You said he has had fecal tests. If he has had recent blood work, fecal tests and urinalysis to rule out everything that can be ruled out, could you try a novel protein diet for a month and see if that helps? My sister's cat was having the poop issues, and his vet put him on a diet of only rabbit for a month, and by the end of that time, the issues had resolved. Prior to that, he had taken a couple of rounds of Metronidazole, but that had not helped (has Effy had that?).
 
Moving is a stressor. It could be dementia... Another thing you can try is some Dr. Elzys cat attract litter. It worked wonders when my girl was first diagnosed. Of course she had a UTI & was on meds but the minute I switched, she never went outsid the box again. I have heard many success stories on this! Have you tried adding a small amount of pure pumpkin to his food? It may help the diahpoo- Good luck!
 
Last edited:
Hi Randi, it's so nice to have you back but not under these circumstances.
Anyone who tells you cats and dogs cannot get dementia hasn't done their homework. It's happened to us.
Lets start with the simple things. I know some of this is stating the obvious so apologies for sounding condescending, I know you're invested in this and you never were the nervous newbie.
Fecal samples: someone is not looking hard enough, plain and simple. There's more than just worms to look for which is usually all they look for. If Efferson hasn't had a solid poop in years something is wrong. Has he ever been scoped? How do they know with certainty it's not IBD?
The peeing: I feel your pain and yes it's a good way to scar a relationship. Cats who have had crystals or other unpleasant issues in the box will often associate the litter box with pain long after the physical issues are solved.
Has Effy always had you to himself in bed and now there's a "stranger" in bed with momma? I've seen cats get a look on their face like "Well I'll show you" and just spray a pile of laundry. It might not be a great analogy but my sister's kids are all adopted and the strangest things entered their minds. The first began moping and acting out and it took a child psychologist to get the simple answer, he thought he was being replaced. Effy is getting older every day and has always had all your love, now it's being shared. I'm just groping in the dark here hoping to ring the bell. Do the other cats go outside and "get" something Effy does not? Is there something he might resent?
The diarrhea issue has to be addressed, there is an answer but someone is missing something. I don't know if cats can get dysentery but the reason people freak when there is an outbreak somewhere is because you basically diarrhea to death. All the nutrients, minerals and vitamins you eat and the water a cat needs so badly just shoot right through you.
You may have to take Effy to a veterinary college where they generally take more interest in the unusual. Put your foot down and say "No, that's not right. He's sick and I need to know why".
We really need to move this to the Feline Health page. Does anyone know how to move the entire thread or will this be a copy and paste thing.
Randi, you're still in my "Following" list for a reason. Promise me you'll keep posting and we'll get through this.
 
FurBabiesMama said:
Constant diarrhea is not normal. There has to be some reason. If something is wrong with him, his pain/discomfort from it could explain at least some of his behavior - he may be screaming out to you that something is wrong. You said he has had fecal tests. If he has had recent blood work, fecal tests and urinalysis to rule out everything that can be ruled out, could you try a novel protein diet for a month and see if that helps? My sister's cat was having the poop issues, and his vet put him on a diet of only rabbit for a month, and by the end of that time, the issues had resolved. Prior to that, he had taken a couple of rounds of Metronidazole, but that had not helped (has Effy had that?).
Click to expand...
I know, it's most definitely not normal. We've done a urinalysis and fecal matter test, and blood work, all came back absolutely normal. My vet hasn't recommended any diet changes yet, I would totally try ANYTHING to help his poor stomach. How do I go about the rabbit diet?! Do they sell it anywhere specific? I would just have no idea how to get him rabbit meat, lol.
 
Becky & Baby Girl Kitty said:
Moving is a stressor. It could be dementia... Another thing you can try is some Dr. Elzys cat attract litter. It worked wonders when my girl was first diagnosed. Of course she had a UTI & was on meds but the minute I switched, she never went outsid the box again. I have heard many success stories on this! Have you tried adding a small amount of pure pumpkin to his food? It may help the diahpoo- Good luck!
Click to expand...
No uti, I didn't want it to come back positive but at the same time it would have been relieving to have some sort of reason for this. I've tried dr elseys in the past, when he decided under our dining room table two apartments ago was his desired peeing spot, it ended up not working and I caved and moved the dining table across the room and put a box in the corner where the table once was and everything was fine. The problem is I can't accomodate him here because the dining room he wants to poop and pee in has no extra walls to put a box against, there would just have to be a free standing box in the middle of the walk way on the side of the table and it would just not be realistic, especially having four cats roaming around who might also decide to use that box. I'm almost wondering if he just hates sharing the boxes with my sisters cats. I just don't know how I would block them off from using it, they have free reign to every room and her cats are more agile and younger than him so they can really get past any boundaries I'd attempt to set up. If sharing the boxes is the case, then using the attractant would in turn attract the other cats to also use the box which makes that problem worse, lol. I CAN'T WIN!!!
 
Forgot to mention we have tried the pumpkin, it seemed to work for a few days until he caught on and stopped eating the food once the pumpkin was added. he's a picky one, and also very attentive when it comes to his food.
 
I know my cat knows the pumpkin is there, or anything else suspicious for that matter. Baby was diagnosed with IBD & the vet put her on metronidazole for a couple months. It’s suppose to help but did not help mine) Has you vet ever tried him on that? Also raw foods seem to help the diapoo with some. It’s a little more expensive but maybe worth trying. That and anything your cat is not accustomed to like rabbit, lamb, duck...just trying to find something that works that she’ll eat is a nightmare! It is helping Baby a little. I wish I had more answers but maybe it is time for another vet visit. You would think he would be at least somewhat dehydrated with all the diahpoo. Again... best wishes in finding something!
 
have you tried fortiflora? Its expensive but it works for us. Zoes poo was too soft for my liking. sprinkled it on her food and she now has normal poops. Not saying its THE answer; like others have said fecal tests are good as the people evaluating them.

and Dickson? I hate to tell ya but i know an elder kitty that had a form of dementia / "forgetfulness" whatever you want to call it. It was something in the brain that just withered. I have to say this kitty was 23 when she passed.
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
Hi Randi, it's so nice to have you back but not under these circumstances.
Anyone who tells you cats and dogs cannot get dementia hasn't done their homework. It's happened to us.
Lets start with the simple things. I know some of this is stating the obvious so apologies for sounding condescending, I know you're invested in this and you never were the nervous newbie.
Fecal samples: someone is not looking hard enough, plain and simple. There's more than just worms to look for which is usually all they look for. If Efferson hasn't had a solid poop in years something is wrong. Has he ever been scoped? How do they know with certainty it's not IBD?
The peeing: I feel your pain and yes it's a good way to scar a relationship. Cats who have had crystals or other unpleasant issues in the box will often associate the litter box with pain long after the physical issues are solved.
Has Effy always had you to himself in bed and now there's a "stranger" in bed with momma? I've seen cats get a look on their face like "Well I'll show you" and just spray a pile of laundry. It might not be a great analogy but my sister's kids are all adopted and the strangest things entered their minds. The first began moping and acting out and it took a child psychologist to get the simple answer, he thought he was being replaced. Effy is getting older every day and has always had all your love, now it's being shared. I'm just groping in the dark here hoping to ring the bell. Do the other cats go outside and "get" something Effy does not? Is there something he might resent?
The diarrhea issue has to be addressed, there is an answer but someone is missing something. I don't know if cats can get dysentery but the reason people freak when there is an outbreak somewhere is because you basically diarrhea to death. All the nutrients, minerals and vitamins you eat and the water a cat needs so badly just shoot right through you.
You may have to take Effy to a veterinary college where they generally take more interest in the unusual. Put your foot down and say "No, that's not right. He's sick and I need to know why".
We really need to move this to the Feline Health page. Does anyone know how to move the entire thread or will this be a copy and paste thing.
Randi, you're still in my "Following" list for a reason. Promise me you'll keep posting and we'll get through this.
Click to expand...
I forget what else she looked for in the fecal tests but we ruled out worms in the get go, we've done two fecal tests since I switched to her office and started him on the lantus. He hasn't been scoped so I could request that next time i'm there. She ruled out IBD because he was showing no signs of abdominal pain, I couldn't afford the ultrasound or xray whichever one it was that she suggested the first time I brought up IBD so I didn't get that test but she said she wasn't concerned with IBD as much as I was when I originally brought him in for the poops. She was more so concentrated on him not being regulated and that being the cause of the upset stomach and poops, he still is not regulated yet. He will use the box for peeing more than he will for pooping, so I think the peeing in the bed is definitely stress related. This boyfriend has been with us for almost a year now, and in the last apartment all three of us shared this bed. Since moving here he has rarely laid in bed with us but will some of the time, and mostly it's only when my boyfriend is napping alone and me not in bed with the two of them. I would like to say he doesn't have a problem with him, but both times the peeing in bed has happened it was directed more towards the boyfriends side of the bed and not mine. I do believe it could be jealousy related like you're saying. We got effy a little sister two years ago and she has since broken out of her shell and has become the new favorite to any house guest that comes over. She is definitely showered with love more than him. I don't show favoritism between either of them, or I atleast try my hardest not to come off that way around them. The little one is softer and sweeter, but Effy will always be my one and only boy, and I try to call him over to me all the time and he just has no interest in sitting on my lap anymore like he used to. Theres another factor that might be contributing to all of this and it's something I can't figure out how to fix :( He's stopped grooming himself, and he's longhaired. He will NOT let me brush him WHATSOEVER anymore, whenever I try, he lets out the most annoyed, angry meows. Since I haven't been able to brush him and he's stopped cleaning himself, his belly and back legs are matted to all hell. I try to secretly split them with scissors every once in awhile so it's easier for me to brush them out fast when I do get a chance at brushing, since it's very shortlived. But his back legs and butt area are so matted and he won't let me near that area at all. I can't get him groomed because leaving the house sets off the worst old man panic attacks i've ever seen, and he will poop his crate and his entire body will be covered in poop. I took him to the vet last month and he pooped himself so badly they had to bathe him there, which I was so grateful for because they usually don't groom at my vet, and they were able to shave his bum. But alas, we got in the car to go home and he pooped himself again, ruining the bath and since I didn't have a tub or a big kitchen sink at the time, I could only wipe him down with wet rags, not bathe him again. This new house has a tub finally, the kitchen sink is infinitely smaller than my last one and doesn't have a sprayer. I'm scared to set off his anxiety by trying to bathe him at home not to mention he is a mean one. Do you think I can beg my vet to sedate him and shave the mats? I haven't asked yet but he's gotta be shaved, theres no brushing them out at this point. But i'm willing to bet the condition his fur is in right now is a factor in him not feeling too well. Ugh this is so stressful, I care about him so much and I try everything I can but it looks like he lives on the streets, he's in such bad shape. I'm glad to be back too, just wishing it wasn't because he tried peeing on our heads last night lol.
 
Last edited:
jt and trouble (GA) said:
have you tried fortiflora? Its expensive but it works for us. Zoes poo was too soft for my liking. sprinkled it on her food and she now has normal poops. Not saying its THE answer; like others have said fecal tests are good as the people evaluating them.

and Dickson? I hate to tell ya but i know an elder kitty that had a form of dementia / "forgetfulness" whatever you want to call it. It was something in the brain that just withered. I have to say this kitty was 23 when she passed.
Click to expand...
He was on fortiflora for a few months, after our first ketones scare. It only hyped his appetite but never changed the poops :( I can't tell if this is dementia, but he does seem out of it a lot... Like he will meow and meow for food and then i'll walk over and find his food bowl is full. He'll look around for a little bit like he can't see the food, then i'll scoot his bowl closer to him and he'll eat. But he won't eat unless I push the bowl towards him, it's the weirdest thing.
 
I did buy a huge air purifier to put in the room the boxes are in, they are currently in our laundry room right off the kitchen dining room where he eats. Maybe he hates the noise of the fan going constantly? I did try putting it on top of the dryer instead of the floor one day and when I called him into the laundry room to check it out, he slowly walked into the room, looked at the corner where the fan once was, realized it wasn't there and walked straight to the boxes. But he used the box a few times after that and it wasn't a problem. It just almost seems like he preferred the feeling of the jute rug to poop on rather than the boxes. Once I got rid of the rug he stopped pooping under the table and started acting out and pooping in my bedroom and on the kitchen rugs, he prefers woven rugs from what I can tell. There are two unsoiled rugs in the house that are the carpet type of rugs that he has yet to attack.... I just don't know what to do lol. I'm just confused because every once in awhile he will use the boxes, so it's not about the boxes. The boxes are the same HUGE boxes i've used the past three years, and we have never switched litter ever. In the last house, he was pooping randomly in the old dining room but moreso peeing on our shoes, against one particular rug. Now he's switched to pooping on rugs and clothes, and peeing in the bed. It all just seems very behavior related and not health related since the poops have been the same and he's thankfully not dehydrated since he's peein puddles.... Maybe he just isn't getting enough attention, But when I try he seems very disinterested. IM SO LOST GUYS!
 
If a vet shaves him it will not be a pretty boy thing like at a groomers. Sedation is possible but from my experience vets are very leery of sedating cats as opposed to dogs. We had a dog that got a steady diet of valium for thunder and fireworks, it saved her life.
Have you tried different litter? Can you make a place where Effy has his own box?
This is sad but we have to talk about it. We had a Border Collie and yes, they really are that smart. She walked without a leash for 12 years and every mom in the neighborhood knew their kids were safe around her. If kids got too close to the road she would nose them back to safety. They are prone to OCD and all kinds of neurotic behavior. In her final months she would walk with me to the end of the block and it was obvious she didn't know where she was and if I had not been there she would have been terrified. There was no official diagnosis of dementia, she had never had a head injury, no indicators of any kind of neurological cancer. On a Sunday morning my vet opened up just for us and took one look and said "The life has gone out of her eyes" and it had. I'm not saying "Face the facts Randi", I just want you to try and see things from Effy's point of view. Moving, other cats, sharing you with someone else. Stress does strange things to a cat and they don't talk.
I've had many old cats who simply wanted their own space. @Tracey&Jones has one of these, pic 1.
I did the balcony thing, pics 2 & 3.
And the last is just to show you still have friends here that care.
tracey_cathouse_01.JPG


bj04 (2).JPG
elmo007 (2).JPG

efferson boy.jpg
 
It sounds like you have done the medical quest for an answer. I would try a diet change like rabbit for the diarrhea and maybe add a probiotic to the mix. That all said, it seems the peeing is more behavioral related if all the obvious medical concerns have been ruled out.

This might be extreme but let me tell you it saved my sanity and my kitty's life. She all of a sudden started peeing everywhere! The bed, the cloths, the rugs, the leather couch, the motorcycle boots in the basement...take about expensive never mind the anxiety of walking in the door and not knowing what she ruined today.

So, the vet suggested that after all other factors were ruled out - prozac for kitties. Clomicalm is what she is on. We started her on a full pill and went to a 1/2 pill. We did try every other day but then there was break out house soiling incidents.

It literally saved her life as DH was not going to keep throwing out leather couches.
 
Randi & Effy said:
How do I go about the rabbit diet?! Do they sell it anywhere specific? I would just have no idea how to get him rabbit meat, lol.
Click to expand...
The food the vet 'prescribed' for my sister's cat was Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Selected Protein PR Canned Cat Food which she got from Chewy.com. Of course, as you know, the 'prescription' foods are not necessary (not to mention stupid expensive). It looks like Instinct by Nature's Variety Limited Ingredient Diet Grain-Free Real Rabbit Recipe Natural Wet Canned Cat Food would be better. The RC food looks to be about 8% carbs while the other looks to be about 4%. (UPDATE: I just did a quick calculation subtracting the GA %s from 100 to come up with the carb %, so that is not ideal. If this is the same one in Dr P's list, she shows it as being much higher. She shows the Nature's Variety original rabbit as having much less.)

After she fed him the rabbit exclusively for a month and the poop issues resolved, she introduced chicken (Weruva Chicken Frick A Zee) and monitored the poop situation. He was getting rabbit for one meal and chicken for the other (he is one of the rare cats who only wants to eat two meals a day) for a month. The poop remained okay, so she dropped the rabbit completely and feeds him just the chicken now. (He would eat the rabbit, but never really loved it, and it was more expensive.) She has been doing that for a few months, and the poop is still okay. For cats prone to food allergies/sensitivities, foods that mix in a bunch of proteins or that have vague ingredients like 'meat by products' are not a good option. Unfortunately, FF falls in that category. If you do not want to try rabbit, you could choose another novel protein (one he has not had before) to try. Whatever you try, you want to make sure to give it about a month to determine if it works or not.

How is Effy's glucose these days? I don't see anything on the spreadsheet since May, and he was running really high back then. Having unregulated glucose would also cause some issues.
 
Last edited:
@Tracey&Jones How does the meter man react to this? We had a twit at the door a few years ago because we hadn't filled our census out correctly. She ran screaming to the sidewalk when she saw a dog wagging it's tail. So you're from the government and you want to ask me more questions?
Randi, sorry to scare the crap out of you with the dementia story. Noah often wanders around his food so I pick him up and show him again and then he starts eating. Sometimes I pull his tail and that gets things going. If Effy knows who you are and where he is it is NOT full blown dementia.
Does anyone find it odd that after Effy started insulin his poops firmed up, then everything went downhill again? At this point a change in diet or at least offering an alternative can't hurt. I've been told cats don't like sharing their water with dogs, maybe Effy needs some private dining.
 
No no, not scary. If I wasn't aware that it could be a possibility I wouldn't have brought it up :( I think he may need private everything for a little bit, I can bite the bullet and put a box in my room and feed him on the other side of my room so he isn't eating too close to the box. Everyone around me thinks it may be time to let him go but thats because most people can't deal with having to clean up messes everyday. I'm used to it by now, and fine with it. It's the peeing in the bed that's getting me because that made it clear he was unhappy about something that I can't figure out. When I look at him, he still looks there, you know? It doesn't seem like the right time to let him go over something that could be potentially fixed. We've only been in the new house a month on the 29th. I can see being more worried about this if we had been in this house for years and this starts happening out of nowhere. I'm going to give the diffuser and the collar a couple more weeks to work since the website and instructions say to atleast give it four weeks to start seeing any changes. He's only had this stuff for a little under two weeks. I'm going to look into a new diet, I almost feel like the liver ingredient plays a big role in the poops. His dry food never did him any good and the main ingredient was liver. He got on insulin and the wet food diet and the poops seems to start heading in the right direction and then stopped. FF classics still has liver in them. I think a diet change would be best, I just watched him eat and walk straight to the boxes to pee, so he knows where he is and where he should be going, but just certain times of the day he is choosing to act out. I just truly feel this is all more behavioral than health related although the poops definitely need to be addressed more. I just can't fathom letting him go over something that could be related to him being anxious or depressed, I think sending him off would be the worst thing I could do to him in his time of need, you know? We have a porch he wants to go on so badly but he keeps trying to jump off it through the banister and into the yard, I'm thinking about buying pool screen and screening in the porch so he can't get through the banisters and can just sit in the sun like he used to on the old porch. The difference between the porch he never jumped off of and this one is the first one was three stories up, so I guess it was a balcony not a porch, so he knew he couldn't leave it. This one, he can see the grass and would rather be in the yard but I live on a busy road in a neighborhood full of dogs and other stray cats, and I think if he found his way off the porch I wouldn't see him for a few weeks lol. He is due for a teeth cleaning, maybe i'll schedule that finally and while he's under for that, have them shave him. I know it won't be a pretty boy shave, I never was expecting it to look good haha I just want the mats gone so he can start all over and I can keep track of it with a new slate! Vet thinks his teeth are the reason his numbers won't go down. Her husband is also a vet and said he couldn't regulate one of his diabetic dog patients until they did the teeth cleaning, few months later the dog was on it's way to remission. I don't think we'll ever reach remission but i'd like to get regulated atleast. Sorry I haven't been updating his sheet, numbers still haven't changed whatsoever. He's still hanging around the high 300's. She's adamant on not switching off lantus though.
 
There are many connections between dental issues and diabetes and obviously mental health. If you've ever had an abscessed tooth you'll know what pain is.
Effy is not going anywhere Randi despite what your friends say. You know him best. I need to get away from the computer for a bit, I have my own mental issues one of which is OCD. Computer on,off,on,off, just one more peek. And I always put the seat back down too but usually it was already down so I don't know what Cynthia is going on about. The sacrifices I make around here! :rolleyes:
 
Noah & me (GA) said:
How does the meter man react to this?
Click to expand...

They didn't have any issue with it....it was the dogs that they had an issue with. Because Kayia barked at them from inside the patio door and once Sadie (who didn't move that quick as she was an old lady pup) was outside when they came it was determined that we had two possible hostile dogs. They didn't read the gas meter for 2 years. They finally came and one of those drive by reading meters.
 
Jumping in late, but my long hair changes personality dramatically when he gets mats in certain spots.
He's normally sweet and in charge (it's a balance). I try to keep up with brushing, and cutting out mats when I find them, but some times he doesn't cooperate. When I notice he has trouble jumping (behind his rear legs are notorious for pain mats) that's when we shave him.
This year it took two grown people 3 times, 2 sets of clippers, and 3 days to get the job done, but he ended up a mat-free skragily lion.
Perhaps when you have him shaved and his mats are gone (it can take a few days to a few weeks for the sensitive parts to stop being so sensitive) either the shaving and/or the teeth will help!
 
Wow you're going through the wringer, I'm so sorry to hear about it all - you and your family both! Sounds like everyone's helping with the vet, litter box, etc. so this might sound silly but.. is your baby secretive? Likes to hide away, be alone for awhile but you still want access when you need it? Try a "bunker box" - which is what I call it. It's ACTUALLY an empty toilet cardboard box, the kind they cart to your place, pull out of the box and install - keep the box! You can ask local plumbers for them too, I do! They're a bit big but nothing bad. They're sealed at 1 end (but you can cut a window in it), and the other they have 2 overlapping "flaps" that your cat can use their paw to open and crawl in. Lots of room, dim/dark, cozy/warm - plus you can peek in because the "flaps" don't close completely plus the optional window cut out in the back. They can run there and hide but you can still access them for food, shots, etc. And they're free!

My Mao is medium hair and now without help, yeah his mats are a problem - if you ask the vet they usually will take care of it. Depends though for pricing. Lucky, my baby who died of cancer, they did his when he was under anesthesia and didn't charge. Fena the same, bathed her and clipped her nails when she was under, no charge, so it all depends/if you ask.

Good luck to you all! :bighug: I just thought maybe having his own "hidey hole" might help.
 
Alright guys, got an update for ya!
So the poops got even worse than before, and so did the peeing. I got him in today after an incident where he pooped in my bed laying down, he was so weak that he couldn’t even stand to try and poop- he just laid there so helpless pooping himself. It was honestly heartbreaking and terrifying at the same time. I got him in today and they ran a urinalysis to make sure the peeing wasn’t just behavioral- came back negative so it’s for sure a choice he’s making. For the random peeing they gave me some antidepressants to start him on to hopefully help. For the poops, she chose not to run any tests today because she wanted to try out a round of metrodanizole first before anything else. Her reasoning was him not being in good shape might skew any test results today. So we’re starting the metro tonight at his pm shot since it’s a pill every 12 hours I figured it’d be easy for me to keep track of it if I did it the same time as the shots. They also took him back and shaved as many mats as he’d let them, thank goodness. I googled it after my original post and tried the olive oil route for his mats and that ended up getting rid of almost all of his belly and leg mats, the only ones left are the ones on his chest and they shaved off his butt and tail mats for me today. Whew. I did end up asking about the novel protein diet and changing his diet in general. She said they had the rabbit and venison wetfood on hand but doesn’t suggest we try that yet since the carb content is 15%, and his numbers are still so high on the measily 3% ff classics I didn’t wanna risk it either. I might give up and try the rabbit food if the metro doesn’t help at all. I feel like the stress that’s causing the peeing problem and the stress from having such awful diarrhea is the reason his numbers won’t budge. We’re upping his lantus to 4u and doing a glucose curve with them just so they can finally see that my meter isn’t broken because for some reason they’re set on my meter being off so they want to do a curve themselves with both theirs and my meter which is fine, i’d rather them see for themselves that his numbers are awful no matter what meter is used. She said she’ll be able to get an idea if he’s insulin resistant after we up doses and they do a curve at the office, that way we can prepare to test for the acromegaly just incase. Or try a new insulin, she offered that today but I figured we’d up the lantus and go from there first. Another route is to do the teeth cleaning and see how his numbers go after that’s done and over with. If the metro doesn’t touch his poops at all then they want him to come back and get some ultrasounds and GI tract tests to see if there’s a chance of IBD or intestinal cancer, and we’ll do the regular blood work again and all that jazz as well. Really, i’m just hoping for any sort of answer on why his poops are so painful and wet. If it’s cancer, so be it, atleast i’ll know what’s happening, you know? If it’s anything that I can fix then i’ll do whatever it takes. But for now, we’ll see how this metro helps, crossing my fingers. Asking for any positive thoughts sent our way!!
 
He might need something to help bulk him up too, but for the pain - another cause COULD be bile, from the liver - it wouldn't necessarily be effecting his large intestine but his rectum and anus, definitely! They can have that "burning/stinging/sensation" just like we can sometimes (sorry for the TMI) - can you tell us the color of his BMs? The smell, even, if you can? Cats on wet food DEFINITELY have a BM smell to them, but if there's too much bile present it's different - not so much "fermented" as "sour" if that makes sense?

Usually stools high in bile can be one of 2 things - light in color - light tan, light yellow, light brown - definitely light. Or, it could be a shade or two DARKER - usually in the brown zones, like chocolate/mahogany-ish... not black though. If it's black and smells ATROCIOUS, get him to the vet ASAP.

Due to the looseness of the stool I'd be leaning more towards IBD than cancer, or a liver function issue potentially - when was the last time he had blood work done?

EDIT - the shape of stool too, is it the usual shape of his stool or is it malformed? Wavy looking with thick and thin, thin only, etc? The shape can give you an idea if there IS cancer pressing somewhere, but usually only in the lower half of the intestine before the stool comes out. Also keep a watch for mucus, if a mass is making a partial blockage, the body usually secretes more mucus to make passage easier - there might also be a tiny bit of blood, due to capillaries under pressure or rubbing up against the stool.

PS - if it's bile irritation, keep an eye on your kitties anus - constipation, etc. can cause swelling, redness and tenderness but so can too much bile (or loose wet stool) - lift your kitties tail and check, at least 2x a day. If it looks irritated, you can gentle wipe with a warm, wet paper towel or a warm, wet wash cloth (soft NOT rough fibers). If they start growling, clean them up tenderly with your dominate hand, and keep them 'occupied' with your non-dominate hand by petting, scritching, etc. Keep it as thorough but brief, as you can.

PSS - via Fena, keep litter OFF your babies anus if you see it there. You CAN use witchhazel (Tucks brand products) on them, but wipe them off with clean water after 5-10 minutes or so without letting them lick themselves. It doesn't take long to help/work.
 
Last edited:
So the metro is making him poop more frequently than he did before we went to the vet for diarrhea, I read that S. Boulardiis article and went and bought some, and the stage 1 meat (chicken) to start him on a bland food diet. I'm hoping the S. Boulardiis helps at all. His poops are a darker chocolate color, sometimes a little lighter, and sometimes has a green tint. To be honest the only way I can describe the smell is it smells exactly like... newborn baby poop? lol. I'm kind of scared only because his poops are just more frequent and he's hardly peeing now, so i'm syringing him water and hoping to get him to drink the bone broth once the chicken is done. Vet is closed and my emergency vet in town is an absolute joke. Other than the slow forming dehydration, he's absolutely fine. On my lap right now, purring. He even jumps up and meows for food like normal, I'm mixing more water in his food than I usually do just to get him some more fluids. But as of now I took away the ff classics and am waiting for the chicken to be done so I can give him some of that and the probiotic. Wish me luck guys :( I just want him to feel better, I know his butts gotta hurt even if he isn't acting like it is. I'm just thanking god there's no blood or mucous and that he's not hiding or crying in pain. Just gunna focus on fluids and helping the poops until Monday when the vet opens, but yeah I truly think he's leaning more towards having IBD than cancer.
 
Randi & Effy said:
Alright guys, got an update for ya!
So the poops got even worse than before, and so did the peeing. I got him in today after an incident where he pooped in my bed laying down, he was so weak that he couldn’t even stand to try and poop- he just laid there so helpless pooping himself. It was honestly heartbreaking and terrifying at the same time. I got him in today and they ran a urinalysis to make sure the peeing wasn’t just behavioral- came back negative so it’s for sure a choice he’s making. For the random peeing they gave me some antidepressants to start him on to hopefully help. For the poops, she chose not to run any tests today because she wanted to try out a round of metrodanizole first before anything else. Her reasoning was him not being in good shape might skew any test results today. So we’re starting the metro tonight at his pm shot since it’s a pill every 12 hours I figured it’d be easy for me to keep track of it if I did it the same time as the shots. They also took him back and shaved as many mats as he’d let them, thank goodness. I googled it after my original post and tried the olive oil route for his mats and that ended up getting rid of almost all of his belly and leg mats, the only ones left are the ones on his chest and they shaved off his butt and tail mats for me today. Whew. I did end up asking about the novel protein diet and changing his diet in general. She said they had the rabbit and venison wetfood on hand but doesn’t suggest we try that yet since the carb content is 15%, and his numbers are still so high on the measily 3% ff classics I didn’t wanna risk it either. I might give up and try the rabbit food if the metro doesn’t help at all. I feel like the stress that’s causing the peeing problem and the stress from having such awful diarrhea is the reason his numbers won’t budge. We’re upping his lantus to 4u and doing a glucose curve with them just so they can finally see that my meter isn’t broken because for some reason they’re set on my meter being off so they want to do a curve themselves with both theirs and my meter which is fine, i’d rather them see for themselves that his numbers are awful no matter what meter is used. She said she’ll be able to get an idea if he’s insulin resistant after we up doses and they do a curve at the office, that way we can prepare to test for the acromegaly just incase. Or try a new insulin, she offered that today but I figured we’d up the lantus and go from there first. Another route is to do the teeth cleaning and see how his numbers go after that’s done and over with. If the metro doesn’t touch his poops at all then they want him to come back and get some ultrasounds and GI tract tests to see if there’s a chance of IBD or intestinal cancer, and we’ll do the regular blood work again and all that jazz as well. Really, i’m just hoping for any sort of answer on why his poops are so painful and wet. If it’s cancer, so be it, atleast i’ll know what’s happening, you know? If it’s anything that I can fix then i’ll do whatever it takes. But for now, we’ll see how this metro helps, crossing my fingers. Asking for any positive thoughts sent our way!!
Click to expand...

1.) I'd be worried why he's so weak - not enough food? Anemic? Dehydrated? Neuropathy? Infection somewhere? Nail your vet on those questions.

2.) Do the FULL course treatment with the metrodanizole - if your baby is indoor, I'd wonder about the liver BUT things can come in on our shoes. Check his stool as often as you can, you might not SEE anything - but get a sample of two before you next vet appointment. They can check it much more thoroughly.

3.) Antidepressants WILL change his behavior - WILL, no joke. It might take 2-6 weeks before your baby reemerges with his usual behaviors - it's incredible hard to predict how animals will respond to these types of drugs - make sure you read the "side effects" label and be aware. Watch his appetite and sleep pattern, especially. If he starts getting unusually aggressive, moody, throwing up, or even more diarrhea or even constipation - call it in.

4.) I DON'T think he's in the class of ACRO, from what you've said he's missing some things - but without tests and close watch it's hit or miss, but my gut says no.

5.) If he's weak, I wouldn't try and do dental right now - definitely for the future but for right now, no. Does the vet think he might have an infection somewhere in his mouth? Gums, tooth abscess, etc? Let them look and check that out, but for full help.. it might not be good unless you're willing to potentially assist feed, depending.

6.) Another tip, if they can find NOTHING - he MIGHT have a bacterial infection, somewhere. Ask about a broad spectrum antibiotic, 2 week course - BUT due to his bowel issue, be ready to have supplements on hand like probiotics, anti-diarrhea, stool bulking, etc.

Going through your full post, a couple things have me worried - thus why I replied, again. I'm still thinking IBD and not cancer - can I ask a couple questions?

I went through this with my Lucky cat.

a.) Will he let you feel ALL OVER HIM - pushing, pressing, feeling, etc. or does he cry at points? Feel EVERYWHERE - his sides, his abdomen, the insides of his legs where it meets his abdomen, etc.

b.) His stool - when he goes, it might take a few seconds or a minute - then it "flows" and he's in distress, not acting like himself?

c.) Does he attempt to "cover" his stool with litter or does he leave it?

d.) Grooming - does he attempt at all to try and clean his anus/back end..?

e.) Is he more finicky now about food than before..?

f.) Is his appetite the same, less, or more....?

I really am thinking this could be IBD, but if you could reply I'd appreciate it and could maybe help you.
 
Randi & Effy said:
So the metro is making him poop more frequently than he did before we went to the vet for diarrhea, I read that S. Boulardiis article and went and bought some, and the stage 1 meat (chicken) to start him on a bland food diet. I'm hoping the S. Boulardiis helps at all. His poops are a darker chocolate color, sometimes a little lighter, and sometimes has a green tint. To be honest the only way I can describe the smell is it smells exactly like... newborn baby poop? lol. I'm kind of scared only because his poops are just more frequent and he's hardly peeing now, so i'm syringing him water and hoping to get him to drink the bone broth once the chicken is done. Vet is closed and my emergency vet in town is an absolute joke. Other than the slow forming dehydration, he's absolutely fine. On my lap right now, purring. He even jumps up and meows for food like normal, I'm mixing more water in his food than I usually do just to get him some more fluids. But as of now I took away the ff classics and am waiting for the chicken to be done so I can give him some of that and the probiotic. Wish me luck guys :( I just want him to feel better, I know his butts gotta hurt even if he isn't acting like it is. I'm just thanking god there's no blood or mucous and that he's not hiding or crying in pain. Just gunna focus on fluids and helping the poops until Monday when the vet opens, but yeah I truly think he's leaning more towards having IBD than cancer.
Click to expand...

Ah bless, he's hanging in there!!!

Yeah the metro will try and force out any kind of parasitical component - aka, it'll speed it up so nothing can "grow" - which is good, but you have to watch it's not TOO much which I think, it might be getting to that point. The "green tint" could be from food - coloring, ingredients, etc. But if you've been feeding the same thing for awhile now that's not so good, especially if it's new. The baby poop smell again is a little worrying, not totally though - but the less peeing, is that during the day when you can watch him? How about at night, when you sleep?

Is he the only cat your house, or..?

I agree that if you think he's not getting enough hydration, to address it - what kind of syringes do you have on hand, for water or food?

Oh that's good, yeah if his butt doesn't seem to hurt - amen!

Ask your vet to teach you how to "feel" - you know those physicals they do, where they press, feel, poke, prod, etc? Ask your vet to teach you to do that for his abdomen, and they should if you ask!
 
a.) Will he let you feel ALL OVER HIM - pushing, pressing, feeling, etc. or does he cry at points? Feel EVERYWHERE - his sides, his abdomen, the insides of his legs where it meets his abdomen, etc.
-I can touch him anywhere and he doesn't seem to mind, or make any noise!

b.) His stool - when he goes, it might take a few seconds or a minute - then it "flows" and he's in distress, not acting like himself?
So, ever since I started the bland chicken diet, and added in the s. boulardiis, he has not pooped at all. But before hand, when he went he would stand for a second on all his toes and lift his butt up, then strain until the poop came- like visibly strained so much you could hear his butt make little whispy noises as he pushed. His entire stomach would contract in and out to get all the poop out :( But once the poop is done he's back to normal like nothing happened.

c.) Does he attempt to "cover" his stool with litter or does he leave it?
He never covers his poop, hasn't since I got him five years ago lol most of the time he's been pooping around the house, not in the box so he's definitely not covering his poop those times lol.

d.) Grooming - does he attempt at all to try and clean his anus/back end..?
He does not groom himself whatsoever except for his butt area, that's the only place he does groom, only immediately after the poop and then he doesn't groom at all until the next poop.

e.) Is he more finicky now about food than before..?
Nope!

f.) Is his appetite the same, less, or more....?
Appetite has been the same throughout the entire diarrhea battle, he eats around every 3-4 hours. On the bland diet he's whining for food around every 2 hours.

He's one out of four cats in the house, I have old medicine syringes from some previous prescriptions of his, I believe one is 5mL, which I use to syringe him every half hour whenever I think he's seems a little ketoney to me.

So, last night around 9pm is when he started his bland chicken diet. He pooped for the last time before the bland diet around 7ish. I put half a capsule of the s. boulardiis into that first serving as well as two tablespoons water and one tablespoon of the broth from the chicken. He chowed down, went to bed, and I didn't see him pee all night. I stayed up most of the night worrying and working since I work from home anyway. I woke up this morning, gave him his am shot and metro and food, and he seemed to be a lot perkier and alive again lol. He even went upstairs and jumped on my sisters bed. His belly seems to be less hard and almost normal, and his dehydration has been less of a worry as I pulled the neck skin up this morning and it went right back down vs last night when it went back down slowly. This afternoon he finally peed and it was a pretty good pee, lol. But I still have not seen him poop. It looked like he was about to today on my rug, and I just sat there on my laptop and let him, just so I could finally see him poop for the first time since the new routine we started, he looked at me, walked away and hasn't tried to poop since. I read somewhere that the bland diet might make cats poop every other day so I'm hoping he ends up pooping sometime tomorrow. If not, we're going in Monday to see what's up. I'm a little scared now that I accidentally made him constipated!! But he doesn't seem to be uncomfortable at all, it's almost like he's relieved to be on the new diet, when I open up a can of ff for his sister, he doesn't even glance over at it. I'm wondering if this whole time it's been an awful food allergy?
 
Maybe this condo should be moved to the Main Forum, since it's a health issue and more members can read and respond? It's kind of out of the way here in the Off Topic forum and might not getting all the attention it deserves?
Randi you could copy this thread URL : http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/any-advice-appreciated.201721/#post-2258216
Then go to the Feline Health Main Forum : MAIN
and start a new thread. Just paste the URL from this thread for reference. Or, you could ask @Jill & Alex (GA) if it would be better to move the entire thread over to Main. I'm not sure what would be better for other members to know what's going on or just leave it alone...?
 
Okay so not sure if this post will get anymore attention since I waited too long to repost it in the other forum, my weekend has been so busy with work and also watching him closely :( but today I finally caught him pooping, he’s definitely straining to poop still but it seems less intense as it was before the new diet. The thing is though, that it’s complete liquid again and significantly less than his original bought of diarrhea. It’s just tiny little puddles of orangey/rusty colored liquid. Should I be terribly concerned? I really would like to wait until tomorrow and demand to get into the vet that day instead of take him to our emergency vet. Not only because of the price but because our emergency vet has never proved to be helpful in anyway the last time I took him in. Other than the rust poops he seems to be feeling a lot better. His belly seems less hard, still bloated though. No farting and no butthole puckering and considerably less red and swollen than when we went to the vet. No vomiting and has regular pees. He’s not dehydrated and has a normal appetite. I’m wondering if the color can be attributed to the probiotic? I also read that orangey poops can be attributed to too much bile, but also read that it can be associated with constipation and staying inside him too long. Should I keep going with the probiotic? Also, forgot to mention that these poops could be the cause of him dabbling in his old food. I forgot to put his sisters bowl up overnight and he could have snacked on the ff classics before I woke up for his am shot today. He’s pooped three times this morning since 9am but hardly anything came out. I took a pic to show the vet, and I can upload it on here if it’s not too nasty for you guys. It pretty much just looks like.... sweet potato baby food that’s fallen on the floor lol. He doesn’t seem weak or tired or anything. He’s been following me around all morning while I was cleaning. He’s peed twice atleast that I’ve seen- once on a pee pad that was clear and normal, and once in his litter box that seemed to be more dark and yellow than usual. I’m just at a loss here, but thankful that the crazy, terrifying diarrhea hasn’t came back.
 
FurBabiesMama said:
The food the vet 'prescribed' for my sister's cat was Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Selected Protein PR Canned Cat Food which she got from Chewy.com. Of course, as you know, the 'prescription' foods are not necessary (not to mention stupid expensive). It looks like Instinct by Nature's Variety Limited Ingredient Diet Grain-Free Real Rabbit Recipe Natural Wet Canned Cat Food would be better. The RC food looks to be about 8% carbs while the other looks to be about 4%. (UPDATE: I just did a quick calculation subtracting the GA %s from 100 to come up with the carb %, so that is not ideal. If this is the same one in Dr P's list, she shows it as being much higher. She shows the Nature's Variety original rabbit as having much less.)

After she fed him the rabbit exclusively for a month and the poop issues resolved, she introduced chicken (Weruva Chicken Frick A Zee) and monitored the poop situation. He was getting rabbit for one meal and chicken for the other (he is one of the rare cats who only wants to eat two meals a day) for a month. The poop remained okay, so she dropped the rabbit completely and feeds him just the chicken now. (He would eat the rabbit, but never really loved it, and it was more expensive.) She has been doing that for a few months, and the poop is still okay. For cats prone to food allergies/sensitivities, foods that mix in a bunch of proteins or that have vague ingredients like 'meat by products' are not a good option. Unfortunately, FF falls in that category. If you do not want to try rabbit, you could choose another novel protein (one he has not had before) to try. Whatever you try, you want to make sure to give it about a month to determine if it works or not.

How is Effy's glucose these days? I don't see anything on the spreadsheet since May, and he was running really high back then. Having unregulated glucose would also cause some issues.
Click to expand...
Not sure if you're still looking for rabbit food. Nature's Logic makes canned rabbit food and the manufacturer told me it has 1.33% carbs. It's not inexpensive - here it is from Chewy - https://www.chewy.com/natures-logic-feline-rabbit-feast/dp/127179?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=f&utm_content=Nature's Logic&utm_term=&car-boost=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-5nJu6TU3QIVGNlkCh008ABtEAQYAiABEgJ2rvD_BwE - but if it doesn't work for your cat or they won't eat it, Chewy will take it back.

My diabetic kitty really likes it and I like that it has a lot of moisture in the food.
 
Thanks Jean! I did a lot of research and trial and error after I made this post decided to try out a raw diet, so he’s on natures variety raw rabbit food and is having solid poops as of now!! I’ll look into the canned though because this frozen stuff has been costing me around $15 every two days which is adding up lol
 
If he’s straining, I wonder if he could be constipated and the diarrhea is just whatever can get around the hard poop that can’t come out? That can happen in humans. So sorry you’re going through all this! I hope you get answers soon
 
Ana & Frosty said:
If he’s straining, I wonder if he could be constipated and the diarrhea is just whatever can get around the hard poop that can’t come out? That can happen in humans. So sorry you’re going through all this! I hope you get answers soon
Click to expand...
That seemed plausible after we did the probiotic/bland diet to stop the diarrhea! But the original diarrhea was definitely the opposite of constipation haha it was... cup fulls of thick liquid (sorry tmi) but yeah, there was no way that amount would have been coming out around an impacted poop lol! But the small orangey liquid was definitely something I could see being caused by constipation but I think it was more of.. him digesting almost everything from the bland diet and what was coming out was just whatever he wasn’t allowed to keep.
 
My Lucky had this a few times, towards the end... if the liquid isn't helping soften the hard stool, it can aid in it's passing, potentially. Water isn't always a lubricant - can you get him to eat any olive oil, a teaspoon a day? That will lube the passage - if you still do. For a lot of liquid, you might try Metamusil - tiny amount, 1/8th teaspoon. If he's liquid a lot, do it 2x a day - if it shows up formed, do the squish test in a scoop bag to feel how soft or firm it is. If too firm, change ratios - skip the Metamusil in morning, give at least 2-3 tablespoons with each feeding and watch.. if liquidy at night, go to 1/8 day and night Meta until the desired firmness.

First thing though, you want to stop that liquid - keep giving him extra water, but watch his stools if you do the Meta. It's all trial and error honestly.

Fena gets 1/8 teaspoon Miralax for constipation but sometimes it's not enough so I go 1/4 at night, or day and night - the other day she had stool plus liquid so I cut her back to 1/8th again - edit because it posted before I was done, ugh.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top